The colts fumble that was not called

[Doc]

36 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

There was a still frame that was 100% clear.  There was really no “either way” about it even if you’re trying to be Devil’s Advocate.  It doesn’t matter that his knee was barely up.  It was up and it was clear.

Yup. And from the camera shot from the back, you see that Poyer’s left arm is the first part of him to touch Pascal.  

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Just a joke that this call can be clearly and obviously blown after a replay.

 

But the Bills put themselves in a position where 1 play could sink them..........and that didn't happen over one or a few plays........when you do that you leave yourself susceptible to a bad break or officiating mistake.

 

The Colts hung nearly 500 yards of offense on the Bills defense.    The Bills D wasn't playoff worthy.    Fortunately and ultimately,  neither was Philip Rivers.     He missed a wide open TD throw and other key inaccurate throws and couldn't even get the Hail Mary to the end zone from mid-field.

[Best Williams Available]

1 hour ago, RyanC883 said:

 

yeah if that’s the process it’s insane.  the person who made the bad call reviewing the call.  it should go to a central review.  

 

also, I think it was Simms who was decently ticked off about this bad call postgame.  

If the argument was there was no irrefutable evidence to overturn the call on the field, which that HAD to be the reason, the current rules bias the officials lens. Deferring to the call on the field, made by people who may not be at the best spot to see it and happening in rapid real time, is just plain dumb. Especially when the review can be slowed and freeze framed. Rules should state the previous call be moot once challenged.

[without a drought]

Missing the call on the field at game speed doesn't bother me, getting it wrong on the replay is really inexcusable. 

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

43 minutes ago, without a drought said:

Missing the call on the field at game speed doesn't bother me, getting it wrong on the replay is really inexcusable. 

 

Inexcusable but completely explicable. The NFL didn't want the game to end on that play.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, RJ (not THAT RJ) said:

Inexcusable but completely explicable. The NFL didn't want the game to end on that play.

 

No, that's not "explicable." 

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, RJ (not THAT RJ) said:

 

Inexcusable but completely explicable. The NFL didn't want the game to end on that play.

They don’t get to control how the game ends. They need a better explanation. But one does not exist. 

[Coach Tuesday]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Just a joke that this call can be clearly and obviously blown after a replay.

 

But the Bills put themselves in a position where 1 play could sink them..........and that didn't happen over one or a few plays........when you do that you leave yourself susceptible to a bad break or officiating mistake.

 

The Colts hung nearly 500 yards of offense on the Bills defense.    The Bills D wasn't playoff worthy.    Fortunately and ultimately,  neither was Philip Rivers.     He missed a wide open TD throw and other key inaccurate throws and couldn't even get the Hail Mary to the end zone from mid-field.

Agree.  That was not a championship defense, it was more like the defense we saw during the first half of the season.   Way too many missed tackles and missed assignments.  Need to tighten up going forward.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Coach Tuesday

[JoPoy88]

Sad but calls like this will continue to happen every year because the league refuses to fire Al Riveron. That non-explanation in the officials’ twitter is classic Al. Nothing has changed with him - he is still more concerned with protecting his refs’ misjudgments and covering his own you-know-what than getting calls correct.

[Doc]

Just now, JoPoy88 said:

Sad but calls like this will continue to happen every year because the league refuses to fire Al Riveron. That non-explanation in the officials’ twitter is classic Al. Nothing has changed with him - he is still more concerned with protecting his refs’ misjudgments and covering his own you-know-what than getting calls correct.

 

So then, why overturn any call ever?  And how does not overturning an obviously incorrect call cover his ass?  The only thing it does is make him look crooked because there is no way anyone can look at that and say his knee wasn't off the ground before he fumbled.

[Fan in Chicago]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

So then, why overturn any call ever?  And how does not overturning an obviously incorrect call cover his ass?  The only thing it does is make him look crooked because there is no way anyone can look at that and say his knee wasn't off the ground before he fumbled.

Lets just call it incompetence and be done with this discussion. Sometimes the simplest of explanations is the correct one. 

[JoPoy88]

12 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

So then, why overturn any call ever?  And how does not overturning an obviously incorrect call cover his ass?  The only thing it does is make him look crooked because there is no way anyone can look at that and say his knee wasn't off the ground before he fumbled.

hey i didn’t say he was good at those things. He absolutely looks crooked at this point and I can’t believe he’s hung on for this long in that officiating office. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Wasn't giving it as an excuse. But that is what happened. 

Actually I think this explanation makes it worse than a willful stubbornness to overturn a bad but understandable in the moment call.  It’s more of a “F it, we’ll do whatever we want” approach, where everyone in the nation can look at the play frame by frame and realize the rules are irrelevant.  

 

 

 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Actually I think this explanation makes it worse than a willful stubbornness to overturn a bad but understandable in the moment call.  It’s more of a “F it, we’ll do whatever we want” approach, where everyone in the nation can look at the play frame by frame and realize the rules are irrelevant. 

 

I don't get the thinking that Rivemoron wouldn't want the game to end...with the correct call being made, especially when it favored the home team.  Leading everyone to call him stupid and/or incompetent and/or crooked because they saw that it was a fumble.

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Actually I think this explanation makes it worse than a willful stubbornness to overturn a bad but understandable in the moment call.  It’s more of a “F it, we’ll do whatever we want” approach, where everyone in the nation can look at the play frame by frame and realize the rules are irrelevant.  
 

 

I agree. I wasn't trying to defend the officials or the decision but I have seen it happen plenty where refs hate making a call, especially an overturn, that ends a game.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

I don't get the thinking that Rivemoron wouldn't want the game to end...with the correct call being made, especially when it favored the home team.  Leading everyone to call him stupid and/or incompetent and/or crooked because they saw that it was a fumble.

I agree.  You know, in the talkies, Michael Corleone was crooked, everyone knew it, and he didn’t give a crap either. 🤔

[LABILLBACKER]

11 hours ago, Doc said:

 

That's not an excuse.  Not wanting the game to end...on a call they got wrong initially and refused to fix makes them look even worse.

Yes it does but do you really think the NFL will apologize or call out this crew. No way in hell. It's a band of brothers and they simply used their power and authority to not end the game that way. To hell with replays, technology or doing the right thing. If that non reversal cost us the game it would've been Saints 2.0. Yes it's frustrating for fans to keep seeing this happen but there's no recourse.

[Doc]

36 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Yes it does but do you really think the NFL will apologize or call out this crew. No way in hell. It's a band of brothers and they simply used their power and authority to not end the game that way. To hell with replays, technology or doing the right thing. If that non reversal cost us the game it would've been Saints 2.0. Yes it's frustrating for fans to keep seeing this happen but there's no recourse.

I don’t expect them to do anything, especially since the Bills ended up winning anyway.  And unless there is widespread outrage, they will do nothing because this keeps happening over and over again.

 

By the way, the Bills-Colts game was on replay just now and after the fumble replay the umpire said that the Bills got their time out back because the replay official stopped the play. So that solves that part.

[Doc Brown]

15 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Doc - with a running clock they never immediately review a play like that.  The referees must wait until the ball is about to be snapped.  
 

Let’s think of this another way - if right at the conclusion of the fumble they decide to review with 34 seconds left rather than right at the Colts snap of the ball - it essentially would have given the Colts another free play in the game based upon the ruling.

 

Look McD was very smart to call the timeout just to ensure because in the current system there is no way for him to be sure they are going to review, but there is also absolutely no proof that the Ref was not buzzed at the snap.  
 

Not everything needs to be a conspiracy- especially when the most logical and typical response mirrors what happened and mirrors the stated outcome.  The NFL ended up not needing to “save face” on that play any more than the should of been fumble in TB yet the difference in timeouts was obvious - so there must be a reason why Buffalo got their timeout back and TB didn’t.  It certainly does not scream to me that the NFL favors the Bills and therefore wanted to return the timeout versus Tom Brady’s team net getting their timeout back.

 

The most logical explanation is the timing of the timeouts versus the timing of the replay buzz and that was the explanation given in both cases.

 

The current NFL replay system stinks because of these reasons with a running clock - it is never fair to either team when the running clock gets stopped - so they try to do it is fairly as possible, but it leads to things like exactly what happened - a needless timeout and a potential play by Indy that gets stopped mid play because of review, but if they stop it earlier it gives free time to Indy to reset and get an extra play.

You could very well be right and I'll admit that I'm probably wrong based off that explanation (thank you for giving me an out because most conspiracies are created due to human incompetence).  My only question then is why did the head ref say that is Buffalo's third and final timeout?  Just a cross up in communication between the refs?

[Thurman#1]

On 1/10/2021 at 7:41 AM, Solomon Grundy said:

Yeah, that was BOGUS!! Shame on the NFL officials

 

 

I didn't mind the original call. I was totally unsure first time around.

 

But the replay refs? Man, yeah, it was close, but his knee came up before the hand touched him. Should've been overturned.

[Tenhigh]

15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Just a joke that this call can be clearly and obviously blown after a replay.

 

But the Bills put themselves in a position where 1 play could sink them..........and that didn't happen over one or a few plays........when you do that you leave yourself susceptible to a bad break or officiating mistake.

 

The Colts hung nearly 500 yards of offense on the Bills defense.    The Bills D wasn't playoff worthy.    Fortunately and ultimately,  neither was Philip Rivers.     He missed a wide open TD throw and other key inaccurate throws and couldn't even get the Hail Mary to the end zone from mid-field.

I agree with all of this. Also,  Rivers wasn't getting much help from his pass catchers. There were a lot of drops.

[Doc]

8 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

You could very well be right and I'll admit that I'm probably wrong based off that explanation (thank you for giving me an out because most conspiracies are created due to human incompetence).  My only question then is why did the head ref say that is Buffalo's third and final timeout?  Just a cross up in communication between the refs?

 

Also during the replay last night, one of the announcers talked about how they wait until the offense is about to snap the ball so that they don't get extra time.  And again the TO was returned to the Bills because the replay official stopped the play.

[Orlando Tim]

On 1/9/2021 at 5:40 PM, klos63 said:

inexcusable bad call by the refs.

It is unexcusable for Al Riveron, that was a bang bang play and the on field guys need to be given a little leeway, Riveron has slow mo and he was clearly wrong after taking 6 minutes

[Bookie Man]

On 1/9/2021 at 6:09 PM, dave mcbride said:

If you taped the game, go back and watch. It is obvious.

Taped? Love it! Blast from the past! 🙌

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

13 hours ago, Doc said:

 

No, that's not "explicable." 

 

It's an explanation. That was my point. I think its inexcusable, but that's how I would explain the decision. If the NFL has a better one I'm all ears.

[Doc Brown]

5 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Also during the replay last night, one of the announcers talked about how they wait until the offense is about to snap the ball so that they don't get extra time.  And again the TO was returned to the Bills because the replay official stopped the play.

Right but they were about to snap it and the refs said the Bills used their third and final timeout.  If they were buzzed wouldn’t they just say the previous play is under review?  Regardless, at least the refs should give a better explanation than “the play on the field stands.”  Communication needs to be better.

 

 

 

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

17 hours ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Lets just call it incompetence and be done with this discussion. Sometimes the simplest of explanations is the correct one. 

Guess which official should  be done for the year? 😁

[Nextmanup]

On 1/10/2021 at 12:30 PM, Doc said:

Except that his knee was clearly off the ground and then he fumbled. Bills’ ball, game over.

That's way oversimplified.  The booth basically decided it was too close to call which I think is a fair call.

 

So it defaulted to the ruling on the field.  

 

We got a TON of really important calls our way in that game!  

 

But fans focus on this b/c it didn't go our way.

 

 

 

 

[Dukestreetking]

19 hours ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Lets just call it incompetence and be done with this discussion. Sometimes the simplest of explanations is the correct one. 

 

Occam in the hizzie! And he's wielding the big Razor.

[Pokebball]

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

That's way oversimplified.  The booth basically decided it was too close to call which I think is a fair call.

 

So it defaulted to the ruling on the field.  

 

We got a TON of really important calls our way in that game!  

 

But fans focus on this b/c it didn't go our way.

 

 

 

 

I get what you're saying.  One of Davis' sideline catches was clearly caught.  The second one wasn't clearly caught in bounds.  The call on the field was a catch and they couldn't see enough to over rule it.  If they did though, I could have accepted it because it was that close.

 

This fumble call was clear.  From the reaction across the board, from the game announcers, to pundits and NFL players across the country, it was clearly a bad call.  Colts fans on their message board even called it a bad call.  I'm not critical of the call on the field.  The official had one angle and only one watch of it.  I'm super critical of the replay booth.  They see all angles, slow motion, frame by frame.  There is no excuse for them getting it wrong. 

 

But as I said after the game, I'm glad the call didn't go our way.  I'd rather win the game with the call as it was called on the field.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

That's way oversimplified.  The booth basically decided it was too close to call which I think is a fair call.

 

So it defaulted to the ruling on the field.  

 

We got a TON of really important calls our way in that game!  

 

But fans focus on this b/c it didn't go our way.

 

You're right it's way oversimplified because his knee was clearly off the ground. 

[Jauronimo]

I thought the in game officials did a pretty good job Saturday.  They could have put any of the Gabe Davis sideline catches under the microscope and failed to see a sliver of green grass between his shoe and the side line but maintained the call on the field.  I thought the camera angles on the field showed that Poyer had not yet touched Pascal down before that knee came back up off the ground but I suppose there is a chance that a defender made contact with Pascal at some point.

 

This is how the replay rule was originally meant to be handled.  A means to overturn obvious wrongs that any guy on a bar stool could see the replay and know whether the call was correct or not.  The Pascal fumble took minutes to review.  As written, that call should stand.  However, the replay rule has NEVER been administered as originally intended and NFL officials have consistently adjudicated on fractions of a second and millimeters.  If that same play happens in week 3, its a fumble.

 

Much like during last year's officiated debacle in our wild card round, I have to ask what is up with these crews establishing new precedent in the course of the game?

[Doc]

43 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I thought the in game officials did a pretty good job Saturday.  They could have put any of the Gabe Davis sideline catches under the microscope and failed to see a sliver of green grass between his shoe and the side line but maintained the call on the field.  I thought the camera angles on the field showed that Poyer had not yet touched Pascal down before that knee came back up off the ground but I suppose there is a chance that a defender made contact with Pascal at some point.

 

This is how the replay rule was originally meant to be handled.  A means to overturn obvious wrongs that any guy on a bar stool could see the replay and know whether the call was correct or not.  The Pascal fumble took minutes to review.  As written, that call should stand.  However, the replay rule has NEVER been administered as originally intended and NFL officials have consistently adjudicated on fractions of a second and millimeters.  If that same play happens in week 3, its a fumble.

 

Much like during last year's officiated debacle in our wild card round, I have to ask what is up with these crews establishing new precedent in the course of the game?

 

It has nothing to do with "chance."  Pascal wasn't contacted before going to the ground and his knee was clearly off the ground when Poyer first contacted him.