Anyone else get annoyed when people say Josh Allen’s first 2 seasons were terrible?

[JaCrispy]

No...

 

1st year...one of the worst QBs in football...

 

2nd year...better, but still at, or slightly below, average...

 

3rd year...elite, top 3 QB, and rising...

Edited January 6, 2021 by JaCrispy

[Real McClappy]

6 hours ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

Teams are gonna keep qb's they should otherwise move on from because of Josh Allen - like Tua

 

Allens stats his first 2 years were sub par but if you actually watched his games he was fine/average/slightly below except during opening drives and in the fourth qtr where he was great - even as a rookie he was good in during these times. 

 

The media that is saying Allen huge progression and why you need to take time never actually watched him play just looked at stats - the guy led the league in game winning drives last season

 

NAhh, just a reality check for the "I want it now crowd". It solidifies that a rookie QB needs 2-3 season to develop and that you have to pop a solid O-line around them with some decent WRs. These teams throwing QBs to the wolves for several years with no Offensive line make me laugh. 

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, Mickey said:

It annoyed me more when I heard that kind of lazy criticism here. I especially could be harsh when I heard the common complaint that "Allen has to be better" as if we would waive him if all he did was match his 2nd year performance and get us into the playoffs with two weeks to spare.  Most commonly though, there were posts about how the poster really liked Josh and they were totally supporting him before going into a lengthy dissertation on the overwhelming proof that he was a terrible QB who would never improve. 

 

Thankfully, all that is over, for now. 

 

 

Josh Allen didn't get us into the playoffs last year with two weeks to spare.

 

I think if you go back and check out the box scores, you will find there were 11 players on the field pretty much at all times. That was the Buffalo Bills who did that, and frankly the defense was a lot more responsible for their success last year than the offense. The defense was edging on elite last year while the offense was pretty average.

 

For the eight billion and first time, wins are not a QB stat. They are a team stat.

[colin]

you can check my old posts, i've been calling him FavrElway since day 1

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Josh Allen didn't get us into the playoffs last year with two weeks to spare.

 

I think if you go back and check out the box scores, you will find there were 11 players on the field pretty much at all times. That was the Buffalo Bills who did that, and frankly the defense was a lot more responsible for their success last year than the offense. The defense was edging on elite last year while the offense was pretty average.

 

For the eight billion and first time, wins are not a QB stat. They are a team stat.

 

I'm not sure we know how you feel on this subject Thurm...... could you maybe repeat your position?

[billsfan1959]

50 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I think when people say he was terrible as a rookie I look at the way a lot of rookies have been able to come in and play in recent years (even Burrow and Herbert this year) and think I can see where they are coming from.... the people who say he was terrible for two years didn't watch him play enough in 2019. 

 

To a point, yes. However, every QB situation is different. Allen came out of college with a lot less experience at the position, having played with a lower level of talent around him (relative to other QBs starting as rookies), was pressed into the starting position with no veteran QB presence and no QB coach, and arguably the worst offensive talent (collectively) in the league at the offensive line and receiver positions.

 

He threw passes to 12 different receivers (not including RBs) in 2018. Of those, Isaiah McKenzie is still with the team, 6 of them are no longer even in the league, and the other 5 are with other teams. Of those five, Logan Thomas had a career year in 2020 with 670 yds and 6 TDS, while the other 4 managed a grand total of 269 yds in 2020.

 

Given the totality of the circumstances, I wouldn't agree with people who say he was terrible in 2018. There were plenty of moments where Allen's potential was there for anyone who cared to really see it.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, billsfan1959 said:

 

To a point, yes. However, every QB situation is different. Allen came out of college with a lot less experience at the position, having played with a lower level of talent around him (relative to other QBs starting as rookies), was pressed into the starting position with no veteran QB presence and no QB coach, and arguably the worst offensive talent (collectively) in the league at the offensive line and receiver positions.

 

He threw passes to 12 different receivers (not including RBs) in 2018. Of those, Isaiah McKenzie is still with the team, 6 of them are no longer even in the league, and the other 5 are with other teams. Of those five, Logan Thomas had a career year in 2020 with 670 yds and 6 TDS, while the other 4 managed a grand total of 269 yds in 2020.

 

Given the totality of the circumstances, I wouldn't agree with people who say he was terrible in 2018. There were plenty of moments where Allen's potential was there for anyone who cared to really see it.

 

Again that is context about why he was bad in 2018. It doesn't change the fact he was bad. If people want to say his 2018 was without any hope or there weren't reasons to have optimism then fair enough, challenge them. But how did he play as an NFL Quarterback? Yea... it was pretty terrible. When you consider the context it wasn't a reason for people to write him off, but that is a different point. 

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

Teams are gonna keep qb's they should otherwise move on from because of Josh Allen - like Tua

 

Allens stats his first 2 years were sub par but if you actually watched his games he was fine/average/slightly below except during opening drives and in the fourth qtr where he was great - even as a rookie he was good in during these times. 

 

The media that is saying Allen huge progression and why you need to take time never actually watched him play just looked at stats - the guy led the league in game winning drives last season

 

 

 

 

Again, an awful lot of the reason he had so many game-winning drives was that the defense was so terrific and kept us in so many games where the offense didn't do much. You're right that he was better at the end of games, but that doesn't make you a good quarterback. Being consistent throughout games is what it takes. 

 

Allen absolutely did make terrific progress this year, he made a huge leap. Solid progress last year, a monster advance this year.

 

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'm not sure we know how you feel on this subject Thurm...... could you maybe repeat your position?

 

 

Nope, I categorically refuse.

 

Until somebody repeats the same nonsense. 

 

Sorry to be so repetitious, Bill, and everybody. But it ain't as if I say it till somebody once again tells us how many games Josh is responsible for winning.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Bangarang]

Josh’s rookie season was terrible though. His 2nd year he was better but still pretty mediocre. Not sure why we should pretend otherwise. 

[4merper4mer]

41 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

While Brady was sitting his rookie year, the Offense was 25th in points scored.  His first year as starter they went to 6th.  Same coach was 5-11 with Bledsoe.

 

 

Nope, correcting BS never ends. 

 

 

 

I think calling it BS is a little aggressive/sensitive.  The guy said year three when it was year two.  Maybe he was purposely lying as you insinuate but my guess is he just made a mistake.  It was about Brady so it seems you took it personally and assumed it was purposeful.  The poster was a Bills fan and we’re a little excited now so please try to take a deep breath before assuming the worst of us.  He was trying to be positive about Allen.  He didn’t mean to be negative about Tom.

 

Interesting that you now won’t even name BB.  20 years of success and now it’s bye bye and a little Bledsoe era throwing under the bus?  Are you considering switching over to Tompa Bay?

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again that is context about why he was bad in 2018. It doesn't change the fact he was bad. If people want to say his 2018 was without any hope or there weren't reasons to have optimism then fair enough, challenge them. But how did he play as an NFL Quarterback? Yea... it was pretty terrible. When you consider the context it wasn't a reason for people to write him off, but that is a different point. 

 

I understand what you are saying, Gunner, however, I do not believe you can really separate the two. To make any statement without a foundation based in context is, by its very nature, an uninformed statement. My post was addressing those who believe he was a terrible QB in 2018. My point was that, IMO, if you examine the context in which he played in 2018, the results may not have been good; however, he was not a terrible QB. I think to say he was a terrible QB is, at best, a lazy analysis.

 

As always, appreciate your posts.

[mjt328]

The "experts" in the media don't have time to watch all 32 teams for 16 games.  

They have time to watch a few games per week, then analyze highlights and box scores on the rest.  

 

To be completely honest, Josh Allen's first two years were pretty bad statistically, at least from a passing perspective.  His completion percentage was at the bottom in 2018 and 2019, and the Bills didn't really throw enough for him to rack up much yardage.  Yes, he was pretty good at scoring in the Red Zone, and had some decent touchdown numbers.  But much of that was done with his legs (which only gets respect if you are Lamar Jackson).

 

People talk about the "eye test" when evaluating players, and Allen was one that certainly fell into that category during his first two seasons.  Bills fans saw something in Allen that others did not, simply because they watched him play football every week.  What he was doing - and what he was capable of - it just didn't always translate to the stat sheet.  In the offseason, lots of Bills fans were talking up Allen as a breakout star in 2020, while everyone else around the league was expecting him to bust.

 

It's the same reason that Bills fans were happy to dump EJ Manuel after less than 2 seasons under center, and why reporters in the media felt we never gave Tyrod Taylor a fair shot at keeping the starting job.  Unlike them, we watched those guys play every Sunday and realized they didn't have it.

 

[whatdrought]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

This. There are two common refrains from the media people that have hated on him since day 1:

 

1) Bills fans were wrong to be optimistic about Allen, he just happened to beat the odds and we got lucky.

 

2) If Allen had been drafted by the Jets he would be a bust and if Darnold had been drafted by the Bills he would be a star.

 

So basically they pretend Allen only turned out good because of pure circumstance and luck, rather than admit they were wrong about him being a bust.

 

I was completely against drafting Allen but even I knew by the end of his first season he was not a bust. It was just a matter of when the improvement would stop. The people that thought he was a bust after year one or two were either jaded beyond repair Bills fans or analysts that clearly didn't watch every game.

 

I really love the people that say Allen walked into a perfect situation and Brian Daboll is a QB whisperer. Go look at Allen's supporting cast in 2018 and 2019 and see the offenses Daboll had before he had a generational QB and generational WR fall into his lap. People will say anything rather than admit they were just wrong about him.

Yep. Revisionist history. Same as the “Mahomes was a cant miss prospect” bs that’s prevalent. 

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

NE won a SB in Brady's second season.  He was 11-3 , was SB MVP and went to the PB.

 

Brees appeared in one game his first season.  He started 6-1 and finished 8-8 his second season. 

 

 

 

See what I mean, Bill?

 

Again, no Brady was not 11-3. You'll find that that was the New England Patriots. Brady was one of the 11 guys on the offense, specifically the one who threw for 189.5 yards per game, who threw for 2843 yards in 15 games, threw 18 TDs and 12 INTs and put up a rip-roaring 86.5 passer rating. He was a game manager, really for his first four or five years, putting up slight but steady improvement till the light well and truly came on and he turned into "Tom Brady" in year 8.

 

And again to the again, same with Brees. He didn't win those games. It wasn't Brees who started 6-1 and finished 8-8 in his second season, his team did. He was the guy who managed 60.8% completions that second year you refer to, who threw 17 TDs and 16 INTs, who was a dink-and-dunker extraordinaire at 6.2 YPC, and whose passer rating was 76.9 that year. We saw him suddenly take the huge leap forward in year 4, going from 11 TDs and 15 INTs in year 3 (2003) to a 2004 of 27 TDs and 7 INTs. His passer ratings in his first four years were 94.8 on 27 attempts, then 76.9, then 67.5 and they drafted Rivers in the offseason and Brees swashbuckled his way to a 104.8. 

[Cheektowaga Chad]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again that is context about why he was bad in 2018. It doesn't change the fact he was bad. If people want to say his 2018 was without any hope or there weren't reasons to have optimism then fair enough, challenge them. But how did he play as an NFL Quarterback? Yea... it was pretty terrible. When you consider the context it wasn't a reason for people to write him off, but that is a different point. 

Good point

 

As a rookie Allen was fine showed flashes made the plays to show the potential

 

As an nfl starting QB it was bad

 

33 minutes ago, Real McNasty said:

NAhh, just a reality check for the "I want it now crowd". It solidifies that a rookie QB needs 2-3 season to develop and that you have to pop a solid O-line around them with some decent WRs. These teams throwing QBs to the wolves for several years with no Offensive line make me laugh. 

I agree teams start qbs too early where the team around them isn't ready to help a rookie.

 

However no matter the talent around a rookie QB he needs to flash the potential that made them a high draft pick. If they don't show the potential I see no issue with moving on quickly 

 

Now back to your point where teams throw them to the wolves - coaches/gms/owners need to know and be ok with not starting their prized 1st round pick that they pay a lot of money too for potentially years/seasons

[Casey D]

Allen's progression has been pretty clear and steady.  He was awful pre-injury 2018.  Last six games in 2018 he was improved.  Last game in 2018 against Dolphins was excellent.

 

2019 he picked up where he left off.  Slow steady progress all through the season.  Fewer bad plays, but still too many.  But upward trajectory was clear.

 

2020, first four games another jump up-- better than 2019.  Then a plateau.  Then the last six games a whole other level.  If this is his peak, that's fine.  But I suspect he'll not reach his peak/prime until 2022-23.  But to anyone paying attention, Allen has always had all the goods, brains, hard work, charisma and great athleticism.  Takes time for all that to mature.  

[Thurman#1]

55 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I understand what you are saying, Gunner, however, I do not believe you can really separate the two. To make any statement without a foundation based in context is, by its very nature, an uninformed statement. My post was addressing those who believe he was a terrible QB in 2018. My point was that, IMO, if you examine the context in which he played in 2018, the results may not have been good; however, he was not a terrible QB. I think to say he was a terrible QB is, at best, a lazy analysis.

 

As always, appreciate your posts.

 

 

Well, his throws really were very inconsistent in 2018, context aside, with many wild misses and poor choices. I think most would and did call that a poor performance and for good reason. You're right that he wasn't in a good situation. But you were still able to see how well his passes reached their targets and how often he made awful choices. You'd see an incredible dime and then he'd airmail one. Consistent inconsistency. Extremely raw. In a word, terrible, if you were judging him by NFL standards.

 

Did he show potential at times? Sure, but so do many guys who end up on the scrapheap. Having potential means squat. Achieving your potential, as he has this year, now that's something real.

 

Which was understandable for a guy who they wanted to sit for a year the way KC did for Mahomes. He wasn't meant to play that year. He was in a terrible situation, but he himself was also really bad in the pass game, though his attitude, competitiveness and his running gave hope.

 

What was also really encouraging was seeing the improvement. His first few games of 2019 he seemed to be the same guy, performing at the same poor level. But after that Pats game, there was a very real improvement.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Thurman#1

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Well, his throws really were very inconsistent in 2018, context aside, with many wild misses and poor choices. I think most would and did call that a poor performance and for good reason. You're right that he wasn't in a good situation. But you were still able to see how well his passes reach their targets and how often he made awful choices. You'd see an incredible dime and then he'd airmail one. Incredible inconsistency. Extremely raw. In a word, terrible, if you were judging him by NFL standards.

 

Which was understandable for a guy who they wanted to sit for a year the way KC did for Mahomes. He wasn't meant to play that year. He was in a terrible situation, but he himself was also really bad at throwing, though his attitude and his running gave hope.

 

Thanks for the reply, Thurman, but my point was that you cannot set context aside. I believe this view of Allen being wildly erratic with his ball placement was (1) a bit of an exaggeration based on a faulty narrative and (2) cannot be made without looking at the context of such things as: His offensive line being nothing more than a turnstile leading to Allen being one of the most pressured QBs in the league and making a lot of throws on the run or without the ability to set up; throwing deeper passes per attempt than most other QBs, a receiving corp dead last in ability to separate, etc.

 

He was more raw than other QBs, had less experience coming into the NFL, and was thrown into the fire on an awful offensive team from a talent perspective. His play certainly reflected all of that; however, IMO, that is different than saying he was a terrible QB. IMO, he wasn't. 

[Batman1876]

Josh is tricky to talk about unless you watch the games. His first year he was a very bad passer, but he improved through the year. But he also had elite physical tools and was able to use that to throw some miracle passes and keep us competitive with his legs. With josh the team won 45% of its games without him starting we won 20% that was due to his physical tools and leadership.  His second year he got better at being a passer and relied on his legs less. This was super important. Lots of guys with elite physical tools decline after the first year because the league figures out how to counter those tools. great QBs grow their game and expand their skills beyond those physical gifts. That’s what we all saw this year elite physical gifts combined with great QB play.  
 

so Josh went from bad passer to ok passer to great passer. But his elite physical traits meant he was never a terrible player. 

[Thurman#1]

34 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Thanks for the reply, Thurman, but my point was that you cannot set context aside. I believe this view of Allen being wildly erratic with his ball placement was (1) a bit of an exaggeration based on a faulty narrative and (2) cannot be made without looking at the context of such things as: His offensive line being nothing more than a turnstile leading to Allen being one of the most pressured QBs in the league and making a lot of throws on the run or without the ability to set up; throwing deeper passes per attempt than most other QBs, a receiving corp dead last in ability to separate, etc.

 

He was more raw than other QBs, had less experience coming into the NFL, and was thrown into the fire on an awful offensive team from a talent perspective. His play certainly reflected all of that; however, IMO, that is different than saying he was a terrible QB. IMO, he wasn't. 

 

 

 

I got your point. Everyone has. The three of us are disagreeing with your point.

 

Of course you can separate context. Not perfectly, of course. But you can watch the throws, see if they're getting where they need to be and see if the decision to throw there was poor. And Allen had a lot of poor throws and bad decisions that year, a lot. Mixed in were some terrific throws. But not enough.

 

Nobody would say, for instance, that you can't really tell if he's playing very well right now because you can't separate his performance from the terrific context he's playing in. Wouldn't make sense to say that. Of course you can tell he's playing sensational, even though the context he's in is absolutely excellent.

 

And I couldn't agree more that he was raw as hell. He said so himself in his Albert Breer interview. Beside the point, though. Performance isn't about justifications or what you are. It's strictly what you do. I think we're all saying that yeah, he really was terrible that first year in the pass game, though his 2019 performance couldn't be called that with any degree of legitimacy.

 

In any case, I think we can all agree that whatever we think about his old performance, it's a joy to watch him now.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Ramza86]

Meh. Year 1 had me worried because of how poor he was with short passing ball placement. 

 

Year 2 he was miles better at it...I knew the sky was the limit for him cause it showed he wanted to get better at everything and he was willing to learn. 

[Domitian]

No.  Most people weren't watching the Bills, so they didn't see the raw ability he had and all the running he was doing.  From a traditional QB standpoint, passing, he was pretty terrible, especially rookie year for a multitude of reasons.  Even last year, while much improved and his talent becoming even more obvious, statistically he was on the same level as Sam Darnold, Mitch Trubisky, and Daniel Jones all guys who I think most of us would claim, are terrible.  I think we all know he's wasn't terrible, but it to someone outside the Bills bubble, I totally understand why that was the picture painted.  Plus, also keep in mind that the sports media especially will ALWAYS resort to sensationalizing and hyperbole.  By making Allen's first two seasons seem like he was horrendous, it makes his ascension this year all the more newsworthy and gets the clicks and likes.

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

I got your point. Everyone has. The three of us are disagreeing with your point.

 

Of course you can separate context. Not perfectly, of course. But you can watch the throws, see if they're getting where they need to be and see if the decision to throw there was poor. And Allen had a lot of poor throws and bad decisions that year, a lot. Mixed in were some terrific throws.

 

And I couldn't agree more that he was raw as hell. He said so himself in his Albert Breer interview. Beside the point, though. Performance isn't about justifications or what you are. It's strictly what you do. I think we're all saying that yeah, he really was terrible that first year in the pass game, though his 2019 performance couldn't be called that with any degree of legitimacy.

 

And I get your point. Everyone does. You can separate context from results; however, I have no idea why you would want to in any kind of legitimate analysis. When you factor in all of the variables, yes, Allen had some poor throws that first year that, in context, were simply because they were poor throws. However, IMO, Allen came in with this narrative that he was innacurate and every throw the kid made was dissected through that lens.

 

Taking everything into consideration, I do not believe that he was a terrible QB in 2018. There are plenty of people who feel the same way so, no, not everyone is saying he was a terrible QB.

 

Intelligent people can disagree. You might be right, I might be right, or the truth may lie somewhere between. This is just my opinion based on my evaluation of everything I could think of to look at, and I made the same argument back then as I do now.

 

Cheers

[BillsSbSoon]

It does bother me some. The narrative that he was woefully inaccurate in particular. Yeah he did have accuracy issues but he it was never as bad as it was made out to be imo. He dealt with one drop after another going back to wyoming.

His rookie year you could see that he was going to keep getting better. And then last year we saw a jump. This year speaks for itself

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

What was also really encouraging was seeing the improvement. His first few games of 2019 he seemed to be the same guy, performing at the same poor level. But after that Pats game, there was a very real improvement.

 

I actually likes his first few performances of 2019. There were some flukey turnovers against the Jets but I thought he played a good game that day, a great game against the Giants and a decent game against Cincy. Then came the meltdown against the Patriots but it was the run immediately after that where I wavered on him... after that Pats game there was a run of 5 games where I only really thought he played well once (against Miami.... he always crushes Miami :D) and he got too safe with the ball and in my view it was likely a bit of an over correction by the staff and Josh. I have said it many times I hated his performance at Cleveland where he was an indecisive, ball holding Quarterback scared to make a mistake even though if you look purely at the box score you go "oh highest passing yards of the season" there were receivers wide open all over the field that day and Josh didn't make enough plays. They sensed it a bit too and that was the week McDermott called him in and told him to play fearless and that was I think the point at which the right balance between risk and reward clicked. Coming out of that Cleveland game it was 20 passing touchdowns in 21 career games. it is 47 in 24 since. 

[Mikey152]

I think that the harsh comments about his career leading up this year are a sneaky way for most of the pundits to save face:  They weren't "wrong" about Josh Allen...he DID suck. But the Bills coaches did everything right and Stephon Diggs is the man and yada yada yada.  

 

Not that any of that is wrong, but they still have a hard time giving Josh Allen any of the credit.  I think THAT is why it is frustrating.  They completely gloss over the most important part...Josh was never a JAG. All the coaching and Diggs and everything else worked BECAUSE Josh is and always has been good enough to take those steps.

[FastFreddy22]

What annoys me the most is when I have picked apart tuas rookie season a fin fan will jump in and say he has been better then Allen in his rookie year....First off allens progression is unheard of so go ahead and bank on that also Allen was a different breed of human.  You could see how raw he was but also how much passion and drive to win.  Their is no comparison in my eyes Tua is a better comparison to Tyrod.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

32 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

I think that the harsh comments about his career leading up this year are a sneaky way for most of the pundits to save face:  They weren't "wrong" about Josh Allen...he DID suck. But the Bills coaches did everything right and Stephon Diggs is the man and yada yada yada.  

 

Not that any of that is wrong, but they still have a hard time giving Josh Allen any of the credit.  I think THAT is why it is frustrating.  They completely gloss over the most important part...Josh was never a JAG. All the coaching and Diggs and everything else worked BECAUSE Josh is and always has been good enough to take those steps.

Might have found out why the media likes to drive the conversation with out context about allens first two seasons as terrible - to make sure people know they were "wrong" about him in the draft

 

Anyone that watched allen his first 2 seasons could see he was developing into an above average QB, where it would be debated if the bills should extend or move on

[Real McClappy]

12 minutes ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

Might have found out why the media likes to drive the conversation with out context about allens first two seasons as terrible - to make sure people know they were "wrong" about him in the draft

 

Anyone that watched allen his first 2 seasons could see he was developing into an above average QB, where it would be debated if the bills should extend or move on

I don't think he was ever supposed to start season 1 behind one of the worst O-lines and WR groups I have ever seen. He was forced YR1 and it was like being in Wyoming still as a rookie QB in the NFL. He did learn some stuff and flashed some amazing skills YR1 though. YR2 with a competent O-line and better WRs,  you could clearly see the progression. YR3  I knew he'd be better,  just not this much locked in so fast and reading D's the way he is. It's truly impressive!

 

It's scary to think what YR4+ can bring. Has Allen even hit his ceiling yet? This is an absolute thing of beauty that I (and 99% of yall) have been waiting for 20+ years now.  Even if Josh is at his ceiling now and continues to play at this level we are winning a SB and soon.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Real McNasty

[BaaadThingsMan]

He wasn't perfect but I could see what was to become, it was obvious he was the most talented QB the Bills have had since Kelly right away imo

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

I think calling it BS is a little aggressive/sensitive.  The guy said year three when it was year two.  Maybe he was purposely lying as you insinuate but my guess is he just made a mistake.  It was about Brady so it seems you took it personally and assumed it was purposeful.  The poster was a Bills fan and we’re a little excited now so please try to take a deep breath before assuming the worst of us.  He was trying to be positive about Allen.  He didn’t mean to be negative about Tom.

 

Interesting that you now won’t even name BB.  20 years of success and now it’s bye bye and a little Bledsoe era throwing under the bus?  Are you considering switching over to Tompa Bay?

 

He said they played terrible, which, in their first year as starters, was also not true.  As for BB, his results with Bledsoe and his 4th string QB were significantly different over those 2 years. I was pointing that out because it was obvious.

 

But facts have always dogged you, hence you always default to the bolded.  You are like Rainman.....minus the savant trait, but with the Wapner.

 

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

See what I mean, Bill?

 

Again, no Brady was not 11-3. You'll find that that was the New England Patriots. Brady was one of the 11 guys on the offense, specifically the one who threw for 189.5 yards per game, who threw for 2843 yards in 15 games, threw 18 TDs and 12 INTs and put up a rip-roaring 86.5 passer rating. He was a game manager, really for his first four or five years, putting up slight but steady improvement till the light well and truly came on and he turned into "Tom Brady" in year 8.

 

And again to the again, same with Brees. He didn't win those games. It wasn't Brees who started 6-1 and finished 8-8 in his second season, his team did. He was the guy who managed 60.8% completions that second year you refer to, who threw 17 TDs and 16 INTs, who was a dink-and-dunker extraordinaire at 6.2 YPC, and whose passer rating was 76.9 that year. We saw him suddenly take the huge leap forward in year 4, going from 11 TDs and 15 INTs in year 3 (2003) to a 2004 of 27 TDs and 7 INTs. His passer ratings in his first four years were 94.8 on 27 attempts, then 76.9, then 67.5 and they drafted Rivers in the offseason and Brees swashbuckled his way to a 104.8. 

 

Yes, a team game--excellent point. I was pointing out that the year before Brady took over as starter, same coach, same team... Totally different Offense and obviously a different result for the seaon.  Not a great QB performance, but the team got orders of magnitude better.  This can't be disputed.

 

Let me put it even simpler:  had Josh, in his first year as starter---forget that, LAST year , QB's the Bills to as improbable a SB run as the 2001 NE team and he won was named to the PB AND  the SB MVP, would you have started a thread saying, "yeah, but....he was just a game manager"?  

 

 

[Motorin']

5 hours ago, Simon said:

Yeah, that's definitely part of what I mean. 

Nobody thought he'd suddenly be right there challenging Mahomes for the title of best QB on the planet.

Realistically, when you look at his % improvement by half season, his biggest leap was from his first 8 games year one to his last 8 games year one. Each 8 game increment he's had between 5-15% improvement in QB rating. So it's not out of this world or unforeseeable. It's actually pretty black and white, he keeps getting better by about the same margins both year to year and within each year. 

 

But yeah, to predict this, no. Did I'd hope he's be this good by year 5? Yes. Was I hoping for top 15 play this year, not expecting top 3 play? Yep. But the upward trend is right there in black and white. Every 8 games, constant growth and improvement.

 

 

[Mickey]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Josh Allen didn't get us into the playoffs last year with two weeks to spare.

 

I think if you go back and check out the box scores, you will find there were 11 players on the field pretty much at all times. That was the Buffalo Bills who did that, and frankly the defense was a lot more responsible for their success last year than the offense. The defense was edging on elite last year while the offense was pretty average.

 

For the eight billion and first time, wins are not a QB stat. They are a team stat.

 

Yeah, totally fair comment, pretend I sad Josh was the only reason we made the playoffs and then attack what I didn't say. The obvious point was that Josh was a critical factor in our success last year and even more so this year. He did his part which is what "Josh got us to the playoffs last year" clearly means. 

[HOUSE]

Keeps me up every night.

[Domitian]

Everyone need to keep in mind that most sports pundits idea of research is looking at box scores and sorting league rankings on ESPN stats to determine who and what is good and who and what isn't.  That's how you have the laziest among the talking heads saying that the Colts have a great defense that will cause problems for Allen.  They didn't bother looking that A. their D has been on the decline in the second half of the year.  B. Their D is ranked #8 because their Running D is amazing.  But the Bills aren't a running team.  and C. Their Pass defense is in the bottom half of the league and their cover corners are not very good and will not be able to keep up with Diggs/Beasley/Brown playing Man.  These are the same jokers that just look at Allen's comp % and watched the end of the Texans game and go with, "he was trash".  Most pundits are NOT Chris Simms who actually put in the work to know what they're talking about.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Nah.  I can see why they do it.  It's just following along with that lazy "analytics are Everything" bad analytics = sucks and continuing the "parody of a first round draft pick" Aaron Schultz Football Outsiders Sam Momson thing.

 

 

[cba fan]

No.. He developed each year that makes it not matter.

[Big Turk]

I get more annoyed when people keep saying he was inaccurate or had major accuracy problems. He was NEVER inaccurate, the dude was hitting crossbars from 30 yards out at camps and in training with Palmer and winning against the other QBs. His problem was his mechanics caused his accuracy to be inconsistent. So he WAS accurate, just not consistently. Major difference. Something most people didn't take into account or didn't even realize.  Once his mechanics got fixed, his natural accuracy became apparent since it was now consistent.  Dude puts balls on the money in windows that are ridiculous at times and might be the best QB throwing 30 yards downfield on the move in the NFL.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Big Turk

[Alphadawg7]

On 1/4/2021 at 5:39 PM, streetkings01 said:

I know I shouldn’t let it bother me, but it annoys the crap outta me. His rookie season he was a raw QB that was learning on the job and definitely didn’t play terrible, but didn’t play great either. Year #2 Josh looked like an above average QB that needed to take a step forward but was trending in the right direction. Year #3 he jumps into elite status and all you hear is how did this happen since he was sooooo terrible the past 2 years?!?!

 

It’s like.....did you even watch a Bills game the past 2 seasons or did you only watch the playoff game?

Count me in the camp of annoyed when they call his first 2 years terrible.  
 

This is why:  I hate LAZY journalism.  
 

I’m on record saying all of what I am about to say back when these things were happening too:

 

Year 1 - They ONLY talk about his comp % or passing TDs only.  If anyone with 2 eyes watched the Josh Allen that arrived after returning from injury, they would have immediately seen a guy who just showed a substantial improvement in comparison prior to the injury.  Josh balled out over the last 6 games compared to the first part of the season, especially given what he was working with in terms of talent around him.  We also led the league in drops that year.  
 

Year 2 - Again, all they talk about is the comp %, especially on the deep ball.  BUT, they ignore the 30 TDs, tied for most 4th quarter comebacks over his first 2 years, his 4th quarter rating being among the best, etc.  BUT:  More importantly, Josh was already much improved on the deep ball down the final stretch of the season compared to the atrocious first half of season.  We still led the league in dropped passes too.  Had we not led the league in drops, that alone likely would have had Josh above 60% last year, and that’s with the deep ball issues earlier in the season.  But the guy who finished that year was clearly having a substantially better 2nd year and clearly ascending.  His accuracy was actually very good everywhere but the deep ball, and even the deep ball was already improving quite a bit late in the season.
 

Again, for anyone to call his first 2 years atrocious means they did no research, watched no games, and just echoed the false narrative.  And their ONLY reasoning was based on his comp %, yet Cam Newton won an MVP while completing less than 60% of his passes.

 

So yeah, it’s annoying when they say it, but it does let me know they are terrible journalist and shouldn’t listen to their other opinions either.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Alphadawg7

[Domitian]

28 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Nah.  I can see why they do it.  It's just following along with that lazy "analytics are Everything" bad analytics = sucks and continuing the "parody of a first round draft pick" Aaron Schultz Football Outsiders Sam Momson thing.

 

 

Look at the people that have been more realistic about Allen's skill and development and those that have been ZOMG HE'S TRASH!.  The dividing line isn't whether they use analytics or not, it's whether they're lazy hacks or not.  Most of the talking heads on TV especially have no damn clue what they're talking about.  They look at a few numbers, watch youtube highlights, and then come up with a hot take or parrot the conventional wisdom.