Ok I'm gonna say it...This is the best offense we have ever had entering the post season

[Moulds 808080]

It's crazy Allen was playing with the phone yesterday. Our offense just looks easy!! Diggs is running away from defenders trailing him!!! it's weird not waiting for the last 5 seconds of the game and then losing by a field goal! 

[Kwai San]

7 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Still a K-Gun billiever. Had pass and run game.

 

The run game was key......this version of the Bills is very exciting but the 90's K-Gun had Thurman.....a dual purpose blocking threat......there is a reason they went 4 straight times.  This version of the Bills will be interesting over the next few weeks for sure!!

 

Go BILLS!!!

[Big Turk]

I can't disagree...paired with this defense and how it has been playing and our special teams, it becomes almost an impossible ask for other teams to overcome now.

[Kwai San]

6 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

 

 

This is Chuck Cecil. Chuck Cecil was crazy. Chuck Cecil did stuff like this all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKxeo7ZUMzo&ab_channel=SavageBrickArchive

 

 

Chuck was one Baaaaaad dude!

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

5 hours ago, SMAKCruiser said:

Might want to go back and re watch that SB.   Extremely poor tackling was the major reason they were on the field for 40 minutes, not because of the K gun offense.   

When the k gun sputtered because of the no huddle, the defense would spend most of the game on the field. That is just a fact, as was Rick Tuten punting 5 or 6 times in that super bowl, because the k gun couldn’t sustain drives in that game. The revered k gun managed a paltry 3 scoring drives. 

[scribo]

Defendable hot take: We just witnessed the best regular season the Buffalo Bills have ever had.

 

And the team is very young.

[Peace Frog]

4 hours ago, Utah John said:

No, I have to disagree.  Andre Reed, James Lofton, Don Beebe, Keith McKellar, Thurman Thomas. Reed made his living going across the middle where most players feared to tread.  Reed, Lofton, and Thomas all made the Pro Bowl in 1991.  Thomas had 631 receiving yards.  Al Edwards didn't start but he was a good player. 

 

If there's an advantage for this year's team, it's with the offensive coordinator.  What Daboll comes up with is amazing. 

 

As for the HCs, both took lousy teams and, along with brilliant GMs, made them better quickly.  Levy was able to keep a great team focused and together for years, and McD hasn't had a chance to do that yet.  Levy had a team full of stars and had them working together.  McD has a team of very good players and has them working together.  I'll take either one, don't want to rate one above the other.

I was going to start dissecting your reply but I'll just agree to disagree. 

[SMAKCruiser]

1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

When the k gun sputtered because of the no huddle, the defense would spend most of the game on the field. That is just a fact, as was Rick Tuten punting 5 or 6 times in that super bowl, because the k gun couldn’t sustain drives in that game. The revered k gun managed a paltry 3 scoring drives. 

 

We can agree to disagree, but the K gun can't help the pathetic tackling of the defense on the Giants opening drive of the 3rd quarter.   

[Domitian]

Definitely the most prolific offense the team has ever had.  The K-Gun did have more balance though.  HOF QB, 2x HOF WR, HOF and MVP RB.  This Bills team lacks the running game.   That being said, the K-Gun failed when in truly mattered, 4 years in a row, so maybe this pass happy attack in a pass happy league will be different!

[Putin]

9 hours ago, dma0034 said:

Bills need a RB. I would say LB, DE and RB are the team's only real needs

I’ll go get the papers get the papers 

[Meatloaf63]

6 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

I doubt they could have won without cheating and zebras "Just give it to them" giving them calls.

They probably win one or two at best. 

[BigPappy]

9 hours ago, Buftex said:

I know it was garbage time (for us), but Williams ran the ball like I was envisioning Moss to run it this year.  I realize, Williams is a little bigger than Moss, but he ran with power.  Moss is still kind of a mixed bag for me.

As much as I think Moss struggled to gain yards at times, I still think he performed better than Singletary did this year. Our o-line needs to do better in run blocking schemes. Pass blocking they are ridiculously good. JA some weeks can sit back in the pocket and literally make a loaf of bread he has so much time and open space protecting him. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

43 minutes ago, SMAKCruiser said:

 

We can agree to disagree, but the K gun can't help the pathetic tackling of the defense on the Giants opening drive of the 3rd quarter.   

i just looked, 6 punts on 10 drives. 1/8 on third down. 19:27 time of possession, meaning less than 2 minutes per possession on average. Sure the Bills defense missed tackles, especially on one play in Q3...  but to say k gun had no weaknesses is absolutely false. They stunk up the place that game only putting up 17 points and were really two big plays away from almost being shut out (the Lofton tip catch and the big Thurman run) 

 

if anyone in advance told you the defense was going to hold the Giants to 20 points, I’d believe it would have expected an easy win. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[TheFunPolice]

A couple of observations....

 

I can still remember McMahon (Bears QB) having a concussion that "cleared up at halftime." For those of us who have watched the game for decades, the changes that have been made are truly incredible. Check out this segment showing McMahon get piledriven well after the play and the explanation for how things were handled then. 

 

 

Here's Ditka angrily saying that McMahon was fine after seeing spots in his eyes and that he didn't want to hear the question again: 

 

 

 

Can you imagine a coach today saying that? He had some spots in his eyes but it cleared up and he'll be at practice all week and play next weekend? 

 

The game has changed for the better, 100%. 

 

But as others have said as well, this is why offensive stats were lower overall in the past. Guys were getting beat to a pulp on a weekly basis. 

 

[TheFunPolice]

As far as this Bills team compared to those teams... I see the same type of comradery forming, which is amazing and cannot be overstated. 

 

One difference between this offense and the K Gun was that in Kelly's day they had very few plays and just ran them over and over, with different wrinkles here and there. Tasker talks about it all the time. It wasn't a big playbook. It was mostly based on doing a few things extremely well, and most teams couldn't stop it. 

 

Offenses today (and defenses) are much more complicated and multiple than in the past. Guys like Walsh on offense and Parcells/Belichick on defense (hate to say it, but it's true) were way ahead of their time, which is part of why they were so successful. Most games they were facing off against teams that were just playing what we might call vanilla offense/defense today: line up and play.

 

Back then there were a lot of "ole ball coaches" who to be honest were pretty much interchangeable. Game plans were play hard, hit hard, tackle well, catch the ball, block. Very complex systems were somewhat unusual. That might sound like a knock, but it's not meant to be. My point is that the game has evolved tremendously, and it's easy to forget that given the NFL of today. 

 

Now, the league is full of mad scientists and wunderkinds cooking up all sorts of exotic schemes, especially on offense. It's a different kind of arms race, where you have to outthink the other mad scientist on the opposing sideline, PLUS accumulate talent. Couple that with rules changes, and it's no surprise that scoring and stats are up. What truly amazing is that there are still a few great defenses that show up in the biggest games, even with all of these things being true.

 

So you CAN still scheme up a defense that can shut down the best offenses, even with all the rules changes. The Giants beat the 18-0 Patriots, who had a seemingly unstoppable offense, by a score of 17-14 in the Super Bowl. Then again in another Super Bowl by a score of 21-17 a couple years later. 

 

The league has proven that you can play a lockdown defense without head shots, dirty hits, and destroying WRs over the middle. It's just that very very few coaches are able to come up with plans to do that.

 

The best news of all, and the biggest difference between the 90's teams and now, is that we have defensive coaches who are among those few in the league. 

 

 

 

 

[Solomon Grundy]

13 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

Knox is as good as McKellar was.  We don't have anyone that blocks like Metzelaars though.

I don’t remember McKellar dropping many passes. 

[Solomon Grundy]

6 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

When the k gun sputtered because of the no huddle, the defense would spend most of the game on the field. That is just a fact, as was Rick Tuten punting 5 or 6 times in that super bowl, because the k gun couldn’t sustain drives in that game. The revered k gun managed a paltry 3 scoring drives. 

The K-Gun sputtered in that 1st SB because of poor coaching. I’d adequate it to Pete Carroll’s decision to throw instead of giving ball to Beast Mode. Giants played with multiple DBs and instead of letting Thurman run the rock, they decided to keep trying to throw the ball

[TheCockSportif]

I agree with the premise of the OP, but really, it's everything.  You see depth on display.  You see coaching adjustments.  You see players get their heads on straight.  This season has most definitely exceeded my expectations thus far.

[DCofNC]

The game is way softer today than it ever was, the really big hits are gone, it allows for the smaller track runners to play. In the 90’s Tyreek Hill wouldn’t have made it out of OTAs, today he’s a star.   This team is built well for today’s game and that’s all that matters.

[Buftex]

5 hours ago, BigPappy said:

As much as I think Moss struggled to gain yards at times, I still think he performed better than Singletary did this year. Our o-line needs to do better in run blocking schemes. Pass blocking they are ridiculously good. JA some weeks can sit back in the pocket and literally make a loaf of bread he has so much time and open space protecting him. 

Maybe better than Singletary, but only by a hair.  Remember how good Singletary was last year?  He (and perhaps Moss too) just don't seem to be getting a lot of opportunities.  From my armature eye though, I think Singletary hits the hole a little better...not trying to trash Moss, he has had moments, I just envisioned him being a little more of a bruiser...Singletary's game (when he was going good) is a little craftier.   

[Buftex]

4 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

As far as this Bills team compared to those teams... I see the same type of comradery forming, which is amazing and cannot be overstated. 

 

One difference between this offense and the K Gun was that in Kelly's day they had very few plays and just ran them over and over, with different wrinkles here and there. Tasker talks about it all the time. It wasn't a big playbook. It was mostly based on doing a few things extremely well, and most teams couldn't stop it. 

 

Offenses today (and defenses) are much more complicated and multiple than in the past. Guys like Walsh on offense and Parcells/Belichick on defense (hate to say it, but it's true) were way ahead of their time, which is part of why they were so successful. Most games they were facing off against teams that were just playing what we might call vanilla offense/defense today: line up and play.

 

Back then there were a lot of "ole ball coaches" who to be honest were pretty much interchangeable. Game plans were play hard, hit hard, tackle well, catch the ball, block. Very complex systems were somewhat unusual. That might sound like a knock, but it's not meant to be. My point is that the game has evolved tremendously, and it's easy to forget that given the NFL of today. 

 

Now, the league is full of mad scientists and wunderkinds cooking up all sorts of exotic schemes, especially on offense. It's a different kind of arms race, where you have to outthink the other mad scientist on the opposing sideline, PLUS accumulate talent. Couple that with rules changes, and it's no surprise that scoring and stats are up. What truly amazing is that there are still a few great defenses that show up in the biggest games, even with all of these things being true.

 

So you CAN still scheme up a defense that can shut down the best offenses, even with all the rules changes. The Giants beat the 18-0 Patriots, who had a seemingly unstoppable offense, by a score of 17-14 in the Super Bowl. Then again in another Super Bowl by a score of 21-17 a couple years later. 

 

The league has proven that you can play a lockdown defense without head shots, dirty hits, and destroying WRs over the middle. It's just that very very few coaches are able to come up with plans to do that.

 

The best news of all, and the biggest difference between the 90's teams and now, is that we have defensive coaches who are among those few in the league. 

 

 

 

 

Again, not wanting to sound like one of those "the game was so much better when i was young", because I am loving every minute of this season...but if you watch old games from the 90's, it is also hard not to notice that defenders were much better tacklers back then. It seems like fear of concussions has kind of made tackling much more of an afterthought.  Even when a defense "shuts down" another team in this era, they still put up a fair number of yards. Hell, Tua out up 358 on us yesterday, and I thought the defense played great.  Just a very different game, cliche' as that is...

[BigPappy]

6 minutes ago, Buftex said:

Maybe better than Singletary, but only by a hair.  Remember how good Singletary was last year?  He (and perhaps Moss too) just don't seem to be getting a lot of opportunities.  From my armature eye though, I think Singletary hits the hole a little better...not trying to trash Moss, he has had moments, I just envisioned him being a little more of a bruiser...Singletary's game (when he was going good) is a little craftier.   

 Agreed. Last year Singletary did play better than this year. I know what you mean by him being a little more "craftier". Maybe it was just an off year or something that they did different in scheme that caused it. Not sure. I am certainly no expert either. Hopefully the run game picks up a bit more in the playoffs. We can't afford to be one dimensional. 

[BuffaloBobs]

15 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

I'm going to sound INCREDIBLY old right now but all of these comparisons need to remember and take into account the myriad of rule changes that have happened since 1990-91.  You can't bludgeon people over the middle, you can't hit the QB high, you can't hit the QB low, you can't hit the QB even remotely late, you can hold basically every down on offense, DBs get called for WAY more holding and illegal contact now than before, a defenseless receiver was something to murder not to avoid, there was no sliding like WRs do now to avoid contact.  If you slid like that in front of Steve Atwater you'd lose your head.

 

If you read this and think I sound like a boomer go watch a game from 90 or 91 on YouTube and tell me what you think.  The games are there.  Go watch them and count the number of things that would be obvious and blatant penalties today that not only weren't penalties they were lauded as good plays at the time.

 

The Bills have an excellent offense for the time period they are in.  Kelly in today's league wouldn't retire at 36 from getting beaten to a pulp.  Andre Reed would be uncoverable over the middle because you couldn't manhandle him.  A player like Pete Metzelaars would be extremely difficult to defend because he was 6'8" and you can't hit receivers over the middle any more.  You basically have to let them catch the ball and then try to pull it out.  Gronkowski in 1990 would be a dead man walking with the routes that Brady had him run and the throws he hung up in the air for him.  The player that would probably look close to the same would be Thomas IMO mostly because players like him were ahead of their time.

 

FWIW, Dan Marino would be absolutely ungodly in the modern NFL.  You'd never lay a hand on him.  He threw for 5k yards when 3k was an excellent season.

Williams seems to be a little more point and shoot.  Moss has a little more wiggle.  Not sure who is faster but Williams seemed like a load to tackle.  Not that Moss doesn't run hard but Williams seemed to have that little bit more mass that made DBs not want to stick their nose in there quite so hard.  Reminded me a little of another Williams we had not so long ago.  Kinda the same style of runner.

 

I was too young to see those games in real time but you're one hundred percent right.

 

This team is statically the better but the league has changed so much since those Super Bowl teams. Those Buffalo Bills squads were unicorns and ahead of their time and their peers in the AFC for years.

[Billever76]

23 hours ago, Buftex said:

Again, not wanting to sound like one of those "the game was so much better when i was young", because I am loving every minute of this season...but if you watch old games from the 90's, it is also hard not to notice that defenders were much better tacklers back then. It seems like fear of concussions has kind of made tackling much more of an afterthought.  Even when a defense "shuts down" another team in this era, they still put up a fair number of yards. Hell, Tua out up 358 on us yesterday, and I thought the defense played great.  Just a very different game, cliche' as that is...

I grew up watching the 90's Bills..fan since 1986...I do not ever recall an offense entering the post season averaging 47.3 ppg over the last three games and totally sweeping the division....sure the 90s were unbelievable but this offense this year is better! But ofcourse the rules have changed and its easier to score now as opposed to the 90's...its an apples to oranges type comparison i get it

Edited January 5, 2021 by Billever76

[finn]

On 1/4/2021 at 12:27 AM, dma0034 said:

Bills need a RB. I would say LB, DE and RB are the team's only real needs

They're a pass-first team. I would say they need an upgrade at tight end before running back. Knox doesn't appear to be improving. 

[jkx2]

On 1/4/2021 at 12:26 AM, Nextmanup said:

I think we were a more dominant, complete team, and probably the best in the entire league at the end of the 1990 season, going into SB XXV against the Giants.

 

This time period right now feels close for me though!  

 

We are on a huge win streak, we seem really relaxed in a very healthy, positive way, and we have a QB who can win it all and win tough games against teams with great QBs themselves.

 

Enjoy it!

 

 

Yeah it would be hard for any team to dole out the beating the Bills gave the Raiders in the 1990 championship game. I don't think Howie Long has recovered yet.

[Ya Digg?]

On 1/4/2021 at 3:27 PM, DCofNC said:

The game is way softer today than it ever was, the really big hits are gone, it allows for the smaller track runners to play. In the 90’s Tyreek Hill wouldn’t have made it out of OTAs, today he’s a star.   This team is built well for today’s game and that’s all that matters.

I think you need to choose a different guy-let me preface this by saying I don’t like Hill, I think he is a piece of crap human being, but to say he wouldn’t make it out of OTA’s is a little too “looking back with rose colored glasses” for me. He is probably the fastest guy in the league-he wouldn’t put up the stats he does now but that dude is making the team and flying right past each corner in the league back then without breaking too much of sweat.

 

i think some of you are forgetting another reason why they started changing the rules is because those guys were getting to a point of not playing football...grabbing the receiver the entire way down the field, taking cheap shot after cheap shot when guys went over the middle (even when they didn’t have the ball) or hitting quarterbacks way late. It’s like the argument with basketball in the 90’s-they changed the rules so guys could actually move and play offense because what those guys were playing then wasn’t defense. Completely different conversation, but no one can honestly say they watched a basketball game in the 90’s and said “man that Charles Oakley plays really good defense” 

[BearNorth]

48 minutes ago, jkx2 said:

Yeah it would be hard for any team to dole out the beating the Bills gave the Raiders in the 1990 championship game. I don't think Howie Long has recovered yet.

1964 Bills SHUT OUT the league leading San Diego offense in the title game. Mike Stratton almost killed the best back in the league in that game with one of the form tackles in football history.

 

 

[DCofNC]

1 hour ago, Ya Digg? said:

I think you need to choose a different guy-let me preface this by saying I don’t like Hill, I think he is a piece of crap human being, but to say he wouldn’t make it out of OTA’s is a little too “looking back with rose colored glasses” for me. He is probably the fastest guy in the league-he wouldn’t put up the stats he does now but that dude is making the team and flying right past each corner in the league back then without breaking too much of sweat.

 

i think some of you are forgetting another reason why they started changing the rules is because those guys were getting to a point of not playing football...grabbing the receiver the entire way down the field, taking cheap shot after cheap shot when guys went over the middle (even when they didn’t have the ball) or hitting quarterbacks way late. It’s like the argument with basketball in the 90’s-they changed the rules so guys could actually move and play offense because what those guys were playing then wasn’t defense. Completely different conversation, but no one can honestly say they watched a basketball game in the 90’s and said “man that Charles Oakley plays really good defense” 

My point is, Hill would have been laid out after running by somebody, no way they would let it keep happening.   The bigger man used to win, now it’s the shiftiest guy.  They would never have let him off the line in the 80s and if he got there a Ditka type would have laid him out for something to do.

[Mat68]

On 1/4/2021 at 12:24 AM, Solomon Grundy said:

Still a K-Gun billiever. Had pass and run game.

That was the creatation of the modern offense.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Maybe.  Bills in 1990/91 had fewer yards and actually fewer yards per play.  Different eras for sure so it is hard to evaluate.  Kelly, Reed, Lofton, Thurman, and that O-line would be lethal in 2020.  

[Motorin']

On 1/4/2021 at 12:40 AM, mykidsdad said:

We are missing a Thurman on Offense and a Bruce on D. I still think we can win it all, but we aren't as talented as the Hall of Fame machine that was our 1990s Bills.

I think Josh is more talented than Kelly though. It's also crazy to think about, in 91' when Kelly had his best year ever and the Bills went to the Super Bowl for the first time, Jimbo was turning 30 years old. The future is so bright, and the future is Now!

[1ManRaid]

On 1/4/2021 at 12:24 AM, Solomon Grundy said:

Still a K-Gun billiever. Had pass and run game.

 

Still doesn't match 2020 Bills top 30 season in NFL history.

[Billzgobowlin]

The better passing attack is this version of the Bills no doubt but man I would love Thurman on this team.  

[Chandler#81]

On 1/4/2021 at 12:22 AM, Billever76 said:

Yeah, but you’re 13. So...