PFF mid season all pro team

[CircleTheWagons99]

39 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

The people still trying to herald cam are getting to be amusing. Sometimes, I make the mistake of going to pft and watched their show with florio and the other talking about what an amazing performance cam had against the Jets... like really? I watched that game and while he was completing passes... nothing about that performance was something I'd look at and be like, 'We're ok at QB'

Cam was done 2 years 

[MJS]

58 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

So.........the Vikings might not think they got their grapes squeezed by Beane?

 

Preposterous!!

 

Jefferson has a significantly higher yards per reception,  completion percentage and of course less drops.

 

Diggs has had the dropsies and while he has caught a lot of 20+ passes that is a bit of a misleading stat.......he hasn't been a deep threat like he was last year in Minnesota(which was the only year he was a big deep threat really).

 

As good as Diggs is at what he does......getting open quick in short and intermediate routes........he really needs a field stretcher opposite him or he can be turned into a low ypc receiver.

You're talking about the league leader in receptions and receiving yards...

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, ILBillsfan said:

I know I know it't PFF but a there is a Buffalo Bill on this list and it's probably a person that has been overlooked this year.  Nope not Allen, Diggs or Poyer its Daryl Williams.  Great off season signing by the Bills has really been playing outstanding this year.  I really think Diggs has been overlooked some and should of been named to at least the second team as well but there are a lot of great receivers just odd to see the rookie Jefferson(who the vikings drafted to replace Diggs) on the second team.

 

Still a good read and I do put much more weight on their line grades than some of the others. 

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-2020-midseason-all-pro-team

 

 

 

Interesting. Thanks.

 

I knew he was doing well, it's interesting to hear they think it's that well.

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

It's what I call "the DK double".

 

Drafted Ford instead of DK Metcalf and Ford's disappointing play at RT pushed the non-tackle-versatile Teller down the depth chart........facilitating the trade.

 

Consequences of reaching for need at a position of lesser value early in a draft.

 

 

Yeah i forgot that and it makes sense.  I have been dead wrong on Ford, i guess i bought into the hype from the Bills about how they were praying he would drop to them blah blah blah.  Anyway i gave him one year and thought well tackle didnt work out, guard will be his bail out, well that certainly failed.

[Weatherman]

2 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

So the league leader in receptions and yards isn’t even on the 2nd team? Seems rather PFF to me

Fixed it for you. 

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Really pathetic to see Wyatt Teller there as the second best right guard.  With as horrific as our guard play has been this year, can someone remind me who we let why we let Teller go?

He got lost in a numbers game here. As he wasn't good enough to start and we had guys we felt were as good as him on the bench besides we got two picks from him which if not mistaken were parlayed as part of the Diggs trade. 

[ColoradoBills]

PFF myopically uses it's statistical model to compile this lists and that's fine IF their "statistical model" would truly evaluate a players worth.

Football is a team sport with the largest amount of players on the field compared to any other BIG 4 sports in the US.

 

The Diggs ranking is directly in line with PFF's limited model and should only be used to judge a players worth with the measuring tools they use.

 

I'll end this by saying 2 things that Diggs brings that are not measured.

1.  Diggs is showing that he is a team player by running and winning routes that benefit the team first.

2.  Anybody not seeing a direct line from Diggs being on this team to Josh Allen's growth this year as a QB knows nothing about football.

 

I seriously can't see a better fit than Diggs coming to the Buffalo Bills at this particular time and no one can change my mind on this. 

 

EDIT:  After just hearing Josh in his presser today talk about Diggs I "double down" on what I said above.

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by ColoradoBills

[Royale with Cheese]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Is this full season thus far?

 

Trubisky, Goff, Darnold, Rivers, Cam on any list of 2020 positives is simply a joke irrespective of Allen.  How are those guys ahead of Ben R, Murray, Brees?

 

No, this was after the Dolphins game.  They said he was the 12th best QB that day.  Allen was probably the best QB of the day that day and PFF had him middle of the pack.

 

This happened to Aaron Rodgers years ago.  He had gaudy numbers that day and PFF graded him really low....like a D.

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Is this full season thus far?

 

Trubisky, Goff, Darnold, Rivers, Cam on any list of 2020 positives is simply a joke irrespective of Allen.  How are those guys ahead of Ben R, Murray, Brees?

No that was his ranking week 2 vs. Miami when he only mustered 417 yards & 4 tds......

 

And again not respected by the national media.....  QB Ranking after week 9....

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/week-10-qb-power-rankings-justin-herbert-cracks-top-10-patrick-mahomes-reclaims-top-spot/?ftag=SNL-04-10aaa0c&ET_CID=140767&ET_RID=12778099

Edited November 11, 2020 by Billsfan1972

[BigDingus]

I like PFF for their OL grades, but aside from that their system seems way off.

[section122]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Usually when trading disgruntled, highly paid vets one side appears to swindle the other initially.........then it turns out one-sided for at least one of the parties.......so gotta' disagree.

 

If Beane had made the Vikings end of the deal the topic here would be "Great deal........or Best Deal Ever".

 

We know this because that was the sentiment from many here after the Bills traded the Mahomes pick for a coupla' ones.

 

Ultimately it's just a swap of good WR's.........nothing franchise altering.........no real loser in the trade but the outlook for Minnesota's end is brighter and a lot cheaper.

 

I'm just going to go 1-4 on this because I disagree with every sentence you wrote lol

 

Nevermind lol I don't care to argue (I just deleted everything I wrote), you won't change your mind and your love of trashing everything Bills because you are so much smarter is coming off much poorer than usual at 7-2 with a big win over the Seahawks!

 

Go Bills I hope you can enjoy this season at least a little....

[Chandler#81]

Ridiculous. That organization is a disgrace to pro football.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, MJS said:

You're talking about the league leader in receptions and receiving yards...

 

Diggs is just 30th in receiving TD's and 51st in ypc though.

 

And while he's having a great year........the Bills have also played 9 games........DK Metcalf is averaging almost 10 yards more per game more but the Rain City B*tch Pigeons have only played 8 games so far.

 

Jefferson is getting love because of explosiveness and efficiency........which are areas where Diggs scores decidedly lower.

 

Jefferson is 2nd in the NFL in ypc(18.4) and 15th in total receiving yards.......thru 8 games........ and has a significantly higher completion %(rec/tgs) than Diggs, who has had a lot of drops.

 

Lotta' big # receivers this year so lotta' competition for accolades.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, eball said:

 

I don’t recall you calling for the drafting of Metcalf...quite the opposite, actually.  But never let an opportunity go by to get a dig in at Beane and McD!  It’s what you do.  Must be difficult seeing all of your previous criticisms go by the wayside, one by one....

 

 

@GunnerBill and @thebandit27 do y'all remember me not wanting them Bills to draft DK Metcalf?

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, bobobonators said:

Diggs works for us very well. He’s the best WR we’ve had in years. His presence alone commands respect from opposition. Hes worth the pick. The outlook for Minnesota isnt brighter - theyre 3-5 and we’re 7-2. Thats franchise altering. 

 

 

Oh I agree he has been a good addition and the outlook for the Bills franchise is very good because Josh Allen >>>>>>>>>Kirk Cousins.

 

But yeah,  Jefferson is proving to be one of the most impressive WR's in an amazing class of them.............as a rookie he is on pace for a better season than Diggs ever had in Minnesota.......and Jefferson will cost less over the 4 year term of his rookie deal than Diggs is costing the Bills just this season!     That's what I am talking about.   Not how much better Josh Allen is than what the Vikings have at QB.

 

[Don Otreply]

6 hours ago, MJS said:

You're talking about the league leader in receptions and receiving yards...

I don’t think he realizes those two points..,

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

PFF is aptly named because it's the sound I make with my mouth whenever they're brought up.

 

Justin Jefferson is an awesome rookie, maybe even OROTY, but his impact has largely been in 2 huge games.  In 5 out of 8 games he has 3 receptions or fewer.  Diggs' impact is twice as big at least.

 

Also, some people talk as if we traded away Jefferson for Diggs.  Unless you can see into the parallel universe where we specifically take Jefferson with that pick, we traded the pick.  

Edited November 11, 2020 by SageAgainstTheMachine

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

@GunnerBill and @thebandit27 do y'all remember me not wanting them Bills to draft DK Metcalf?

 

 

 

Nah you were all over drafting DK especially day two. I remember you saying the morning of day 2 you would trade up to #33 and take him.

 

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Oh I agree he has been a good addition and the outlook for the Bills franchise is very good because Josh Allen >>>>>>>>>Kirk Cousins.

 

But yeah,  Jefferson is proving to be one of the most impressive WR's in an amazing class of them.............as a rookie he is on pace for a better season than Diggs ever had in Minnesota.......and Jefferson will cost less over the 4 year term of his rookie deal than Diggs is costing the Bills just this season!     That's what I am talking about.   Not how much better Josh Allen is than what the Vikings have at QB.

 

 

I am still not sold on Jefferson as a top end difference maker. I certainly wouldn't swap Diggs for him even taking cost into account and I wouldn't swap any of the other top rookie WRs for him even though he is out producing them yardage wise. 

 

He can play Jefferson, he is smooth, runs good routes, and has good hands... but he is still best from the slot though I confess he has done better outside than I expected. He is definitely benefitting from the strong running game and heavy play action. In summary I think he is good. Diggs is a difference maker. 

[BADOLBILZ]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nah you were all over drafting DK especially day two. I remember you saying the morning of day 2 you would trade up to #33 and take him.

 

 

I am still not sold on Jefferson as a top end difference maker. I certainly wouldn't swap Diggs for him even taking cost into account and I wouldn't swap any of the other top rookie WRs for him even though he is out producing them yardage wise. 

 

He can play Jefferson, he is smooth, runs good routes, and has good hands... but he is still best from the slot though I confess he has done better outside than I expected. He is definitely benefitting from the strong running game and heavy play action. In summary I think he is good. Diggs is a difference maker. 

 

 

 

I like Diggs a lot but we will revisit those trade options when Diggs agrees to end his holdout for his new deal $18-22M per year, cap crushing deal next August.

 

I had to stop at comparing Jefferson's $13.5M total contract value to Diggs $14.5M 2020 money because it's going WAY north of that very shortly.

 

[GunnerBill]

17 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I like Diggs a lot but we will revisit those trade options when Diggs agrees to end his holdout for his new deal $18-22M per year, cap crushing deal next August.

 

I had to stop at comparing Jefferson's $13.5M total contract value to Diggs $14.5M 2020 money because it's going WAY north of that very shortly.

 

Diggs will likely get a pay rise, sure. But you want the best players you have to pay them. And Diggs is one of the best receivers in the league. Jefferson isn't. I am still sceptical that he will ever be that but we shall see. The Bills did not need another "good" wide receiver. They needed a true difference maker who changed the way every defense game planned to stop our offense. Stefon Diggs has done that.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Diggs will likely get a pay rise, sure. But you want the best players you have to pay them. And Diggs is one of the best receivers in the league. Jefferson isn't. I am still sceptical that he will ever be that but we shall see. The Bills did not need another "good" wide receiver. They needed a true difference maker who changed the way every defense game planned to stop our offense. Stefon Diggs has done that.

 

 

I know you were really not that impressed at all with Jefferson and saw him as only a slot receiver going into the draft............I remember because I thought it was a bold take.........so I am not surprised that his explosive season hasn't yet changed that opinion.

 

But wasn't Diggs that guy before his aberrant season last year?  

 

3 years ago he averaged 10 ypc over the course of 100 catches........which from what I can find looks like the lowest ypc ever for a 1,000 yard wide receiver.

 

Yes, lower than the most dink and dunkest 1,000 yard seasons of Welker or Edelman.

 

So while I do strongly agree that a slot receiver type shouldn't be considered among the league's best "wide receivers".............I think the lack of high per play production is actually a knock on Diggs career as well.    

 

This will only be his 3rd 1,000 yard season in 6 because he's not been a lid lifter on the outside.    

 

The bar is much higher than that for the best WR's in the NFL.

[TheElectricCompany]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Diggs will likely get a pay rise, sure. But you want the best players you have to pay them. And Diggs is one of the best receivers in the league. Jefferson isn't. I am still sceptical that he will ever be that but we shall see. ]

 

Diggs is a difference maker, and I'm really glad he's here, but there's no need to throw a cap on Jefferson's potential. Jeudy, Lamb and Jefferson all look like stars in the making. 

 

I get why they went after Diggs . COVID offseason meant minimal practice time, and they valued a proven commodity in a critical time in Josh's development. It has worked out so far 

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

Diggs is the best WR the Bills have ever had. Reed did it over a longer period of time, from the slot with a hall of fame QB. I know it’s 9 games and I know it’s not going to be something people agree with....but Diggs is going to end up being the best WR the Bills have ever had.

[BADOLBILZ]

44 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Diggs is the best WR the Bills have ever had. Reed did it over a longer period of time, from the slot with a hall of fame QB. I know it’s 9 games and I know it’s not going to be something people agree with....but Diggs is going to end up being the best WR the Bills have ever had.

 

 

They won't agree because Reed was widely regarded as one of the 3 best receivers in the entire NFL for 7 seasons from 1988-1994........and his chief competition was the GOAT.

 

Diggs absolutely does not stack up like that against his peers.............he hasn't even gotten them to throw him a pro bowl nod yet........meanwhile his former running mate Thielen has two.

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by BADOLBILZ

[BADOLBILZ]

12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

We disagree here.  I think the Bills got exactly what they needed right now to assist Allen's development and the development in the WR room, and in that regard, it at least has the potential to be franchise altering. 

 

And while I'm sure there would be some who thought it was a great deal, I don't think most in Minn have forgotten Diggs or decided it was a great deal quite yet, even though Jefferson is developing as an excellent player.

 

1) You are disagreeing with something I didn't say.  Franchise altering moves to me are the kind of things that get stadiums built.   That begins and ends with the QB.   I could turn around and say "we disagree because I think Josh Allen was going to be good this year with or without Diggs" but that might be like a straw man argument or something. 

 

2) They have bigger concerns........but regardless of how the fans *feel*....... lost WR production is not one of them..........Jefferson is on pace to exceed the production of Diggs best season(last year).  

[4merper4mer]

20 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

They won't agree because Reed was widely regarded as one of the 3 best receivers in the entire NFL for 7 seasons from 1988-1994........and his chief competition was the GOAT.

 

Diggs absolutely does not stack up like that against his peers.............he hasn't even gotten them to throw him a pro bowl nod yet........meanwhile his former running mate Thielen has two.

 

Whatever on pro bowl nods.  He is far better than Thielen.  That's a joke.  Agreed on Reed and Moulds was tremendous too.  Let's hope we can argue about this in three years because it will mean a lot of good things have happened.  I absolutely love Diggs so far.  I knew he was good...but he's actually great and far tougher than I thought.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Whatever on pro bowl nods.  He is far better than Thielen.  That's a joke.  Agreed on Reed and Moulds was tremendous too.  Let's hope we can argue about this in three years because it will mean a lot of good things have happened.  I absolutely love Diggs so far.  I knew he was good...but he's actually great and far tougher than I thought.

 

He has always been better than Thielen IMO. And I went back and watched some Vikings all22 after the trade (it was from 2018 admittedly because Thielen didn't play much last year) and as I always say if you want to see who the NFL thinks is better the way they defend them tells you. The majority of teams playing the Vikings set out to stop Diggs. He was the guy doubled, he was the guy they shaded safety help to and he was more often than not (though not always) the guy who attracted the top corners. Thielen is good. He himself is a top 15 receiver. But Diggs was always the star of that show regardless what pro bowl voting indicated.

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I know you were really not that impressed at all with Jefferson and saw him as only a slot receiver going into the draft............I remember because I thought it was a bold take.........so I am not surprised that his explosive season hasn't yet changed that opinion.

 

But wasn't Diggs that guy before his aberrant season last year?  

 

3 years ago he averaged 10 ypc over the course of 100 catches........which from what I can find looks like the lowest ypc ever for a 1,000 yard wide receiver.

 

Yes, lower than the most dink and dunkest 1,000 yard seasons of Welker or Edelman.

 

So while I do strongly agree that a slot receiver type shouldn't be considered among the league's best "wide receivers".............I think the lack of high per play production is actually a knock on Diggs career as well.    

 

This will only be his 3rd 1,000 yard season in 6 because he's not been a lid lifter on the outside.    

 

The bar is much higher than that for the best WR's in the NFL.

 

It is fair to say that I think his production hasn't completely matched his talent thus far in his career. It is part of why it was a great trade. There was and still is a chip on Diggs's shoulder. This wasn't trading for a guy whose reputation is totally made and might come in and half ass it.

[JerseyBills]

21 hours ago, ILBillsfan said:

I know I know it't PFF but a there is a Buffalo Bill on this list and it's probably a person that has been overlooked this year.  Nope not Allen, Diggs or Poyer its Daryl Williams.  Great off season signing by the Bills has really been playing outstanding this year.  I really think Diggs has been overlooked some and should of been named to at least the second team as well but there are a lot of great receivers just odd to see the rookie Jefferson(who the vikings drafted to replace Diggs) on the second team.

 

Still a good read and I do put much more weight on their line grades than some of the others. 

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-2020-midseason-all-pro-team

 

I literally have zero desire to read their grading system.  I used to read PFF frequently,  I still appreciate their advanced stats , but I just can't deal with their grades.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

They won't agree because Reed was widely regarded as one of the 3 best receivers in the entire NFL for 7 seasons from 1988-1994........and his chief competition was the GOAT.

 

Diggs absolutely does not stack up like that against his peers.............he hasn't even gotten them to throw him a pro bowl nod yet........meanwhile his former running mate Thielen has two.

 

He’s leading the league in every category right now. If you don’t consider him a top 3 in the nfl this year, it’s on you.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

He’s leading the league in every category right now. If you don’t consider him a top 3 in the nfl this year, it’s on you.

 

Diggs is currently leading the league in receptions and yards.........that's not "every category"........TD's, ypc, yards per game, catch %, drops........there are many more where he ranks lower or far lower.

 

Because the Bills haven't had their bye yet Diggs has played more games than guys like DeAndre Hopkins and DK Metcalf who closely trail him in those categories but have higher per game production..........so while Diggs is having a great year he's not on pace to lead the league in those statistics.

 

And keep in mind in Stefon Diggs previous best season(last year) he ranked 43rd in the NFL in receptions and 17th in yardage..........so nowhere near the top of the league.   Not even remotely close.

 

So what I am saying is if he is going to reach Reed's level.........and then exceed it relative to his peers.........then he is starting pretty late because he's never been as highly regarded as Reed was in his 7 year prime.

 

There were a few seasons where it was pretty much between Reed and Rice as the two best in the NFL.    Perhaps your memory fails you or you just don't know but Andre Reed was a legit great.    

 

Diggs has been a very good WR but if he is starting an 8 year run to exceed Reeds.........that will be an astonishing.

 

That's your expectation........you are entitled to believe that.........but I think a lot of that is your lack of perspective on their two careers to this point.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Thielen is good. He himself is a top 15 receiver. But Diggs was always the star of that show regardless what pro bowl voting indicated.

 

It is fair to say that I think his production hasn't completely matched his talent thus far in his career. It is part of why it was a great trade. There was and still is a chip on Diggs's shoulder. This wasn't trading for a guy whose reputation is totally made and might come in and half ass it.

 

Not top 15.

 

Thielen is more like a top 30 WR.........he's in the mid 20's in receptions and yardage and around 50th in ypc.

 

I think the goal posts wrt Diggs production shortfalls in Minnesota are on roller skates............it's either Cousins can't throw the deep ball to him or Cousins just throws the deep ball to him or Thielen gets the benefit of Diggs coverage yet when he leaves a rookie literally replicates his best production and out produces Thielen.............I think the reality is that Diggs was enigmatic in Minnesota.   

 

Love him,  excellent player but I think if he gets $20M per we will always be left wanting him to be more like Julio Jones when he's much closer to Jarvis Landry on the performance spectrum.

 

 

[Doc]

14 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Whatever on pro bowl nods.  He is far better than Thielen.  That's a joke.  Agreed on Reed and Moulds was tremendous too.  Let's hope we can argue about this in three years because it will mean a lot of good things have happened.  I absolutely love Diggs so far.  I knew he was good...but he's actually great and far tougher than I thought.

 

Yup.  Thielen won't sniff another Pro Bowl.  Diggs will make several still.

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Not top 15.

 

Thielen is more like a top 30 WR.........he's in the mid 20's in receptions and yardage and around 50th in ypc.

 

I think the goal posts wrt Diggs production shortfalls in Minnesota are on roller skates............it's either Cousins can't throw the deep ball to him or Cousins just throws the deep ball to him or Thielen gets the benefit of Diggs coverage yet when he leaves a rookie literally replicates his best production and out produces Thielen.............I think the reality is that Diggs was enigmatic in Minnesota.   

 

Love him,  excellent player but I think if he gets $20M per we will always be left wanting him to be more like Julio Jones when he's much closer to Jarvis Landry on the performance spectrum.

 

 

 

I didn't say his production was because of the way teams defended him. I did not make that argument. His production is to the largest extent on him being enigmatic and inconsistent. That was always my take on the Vikings receivers. Diggs is more talented, Thielen is more consistent. But the way teams defended him is a fact. 

 

But I disagree he is closer to Landry than Jones. I disagree a lot. Landry is a more consistent but less talented player. Might we pay Diggs $20m and then see the inconsistency return? It is certainly possible. Might the extra responsibility of being the undisputed top dog in Buffalo focus the mind and lead to more consistency than in Minnesota? Also possible. Personally I would be more than willing to take that chance because guys with Stefon Diggs level of talent don't come around every day even in this era of stacked receiver drafts. 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Yup.  Thielen won't sniff another Pro Bowl.  Diggs will make several still his first pro bowl this year.

 

Possibly wrt Thielen but missing the playoffs entirely in a covid year may increase the chance that a guy like Thielen ends up as a 5th alternate.........and fixed the other part for you.

 

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Possibly wrt Thielen but missing the playoffs entirely in a covid year may increase the chance that a guy like Thielen ends up as a 5th alternate.........and fixed the other part for you.

 

Maybe if Thielen were the 20th alternate...

 

And you just basically added what was already implied.

[Lothar]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Diggs is currently leading the league in receptions and yards.........that's not "every category"........TD's, ypc, yards per game, catch %, drops........there are many more where he ranks lower or far lower.

 

Because the Bills haven't had their bye yet Diggs has played more games than guys like DeAndre Hopkins and DK Metcalf who closely trail him in those categories but have higher per game production..........so while Diggs is having a great year he's not on pace to lead the league in those statistics.

 

And keep in mind in Stefon Diggs previous best season(last year) he ranked 43rd in the NFL in receptions and 17th in yardage..........so nowhere near the top of the league.   Not even remotely close.

 

So what I am saying is if he is going to reach Reed's level.........and then exceed it relative to his peers.........then he is starting pretty late because he's never been as highly regarded as Reed was in his 7 year prime.

 

There were a few seasons where it was pretty much between Reed and Rice as the two best in the NFL.    Perhaps your memory fails you or you just don't know but Andre Reed was a legit great.    

 

Diggs has been a very good WR but if he is starting an 8 year run to exceed Reeds.........that will be an astonishing.

 

That's your expectation........you are entitled to believe that.........but I think a lot of that is your lack of perspective on their two careers to this point.

 

 

As great as he was, I'm not sure there was ever a year when Andre was considered 2nd best in the NFL. He was usually in the top 5 or 6. Even the two years he made All-Pro, I believe Rice and Sterling Shape were considered the starters. I truly believe that Moulds was the best receiver the bills had. If he had a good qb, his ceiling was definitely Hall of Fame caliber. Diggs is in the conversation for #3 already and given his qb, maybe more.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Lothar

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I didn't say his production was because of the way teams defended him. I did not make that argument. His production is to the largest extent on him being enigmatic and inconsistent. That was always my take on the Vikings receivers. Diggs is more talented, Thielen is more consistent. But the way teams defended him is a fact. 

 

But I disagree he is closer to Landry than Jones. I disagree a lot. Landry is a more consistent but less talented player. Might we pay Diggs $20m and then see the inconsistency return? It is certainly possible. Might the extra responsibility of being the undisputed top dog in Buffalo focus the mind and lead to more consistency than in Minnesota? Also possible. Personally I would be more than willing to take that chance because guys with Stefon Diggs level of talent don't come around every day even in this era of stacked receiver drafts. 

 

 

To be clear I wasn't saying you were moving the goal posts.......everyone just has a different theory and none of them holds up to scrutiny..........ultimately, as I said and you apparently agree with, dead center of the field is him just being an enigma over anything else.

 

Me saying he's closer to Landry than Julio on the performance spectrum is just based on their production.   I don't think that much of Landry......low ypc is a big knock in my book. And I think Landry gets mostly ignored for honors because of it so I don't think I'm alone in that regard.  

 

Diggs is decidedly better than Landy IMO but has also not been a particularly explosive player over his career......his ypc is much closer to that of Landry than Julio and much of what he does best is the same kind of work that Landry excels at.  

 

I am inclined to pay Diggs too.......they aren't easy to find........but at the same time he's definitely not the peak AB/Hopkins/AJ Green/Julio type of #1 but he will get paid like that and he will need more help in the WR corps than guys like that. 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I am inclined to pay Diggs too.......they aren't easy to find........but at the same time he's definitely not the peak AB/Hopkins/AJ Green/Julio type of #1 but he will get paid like that and he will need more help in the WR corps than guys like that. 

 

He isn't because he doesn't have the consistent production that puts you in that conversation. I don't think he is very far off talent wise. The question that the Bills will have to answer with Diggs at some point either this summer or next (I do think with the reduced cap you will see a lot of agents advise their players to hang fire a year and see what happens) is whether the 9 games we have seen are the "new norm" for Stefon Diggs or if they are a peak to be followed by a regression to his previous production. I am a big fan of his and have been since long before he was a Bill, I am pretty optimistic he will continue to perform like a star.

[BADOLBILZ]

17 minutes ago, Lothar said:

As great as he was, I'm not sure there was ever a year when Andre was considered 2nd best in the NFL. He was usually in the top 5 or 6. Even the two years he made All-Pro, I believe Rice and Sterling Shape were considered the starters. I truly believe that Moulds was the best receiver the bills had. If he had a good qb, his ceiling was definitely Hall of Fame caliber. Diggs is in the conversation for #3 already and given his qb, maybe more.

 

 

Rice, Reed and Sharpe were the 3 guys over that stretch.    He played on the top rushing team in the NFL over that stretch so he got A LOT less targets than Sharpe but he was held in high regard for not only his numbers but his toughness and blocking.   It wasn't a year to year thing........he was ALWAYS in the conversation during that run.

 

This is all new for Diggs in year 6.

 

As for Moulds.......in 1998 he was the best receiver for one season that the Bills have ever had.    He was unreal.

 

But he was a knucklehead and just kept stacking on muscle,  especially in his legs, and lost speed and quickness and flexibility and his ypc numbers declined steadily until the point in the mid-90's he just could not get open to save his life.   Everything was contested which exposed his so-so hands and he bitched at refs constantly and spit in opponents faces in frustration and blamed everyone else as he declined until his "I quit" game in Miami. 

 

Could he have put up better numbers with a better QB situation?  Maybe......but he got FED the football more than Reed.

 

 But he wouldn't have been as good as Reed in the Bills K-Gun because he just wasn't as good of a receiver or football player in general.   He sure as hell wasn't getting those 150, 160, 180 targets in the K-Gun like he did in the Rojo/Bledsoe era either.

 

Finally.........Reed's skill and body aged much more gracefully.......at 33 he was still about where Moulds was at physically at 29.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He isn't because he doesn't have the consistent production that puts you in that conversation. I don't think he is very far off talent wise. The question that the Bills will have to answer with Diggs at some point either this summer or next (I do think with the reduced cap you will see a lot of agents advise their players to hang fire a year and see what happens) is whether the 9 games we have seen are the "new norm" for Stefon Diggs or if they are a peak to be followed by a regression to his previous production. I am a big fan of his and have been since long before he was a Bill, I am pretty optimistic he will continue to perform like a star.

 

 

Yeah he should be a top 15 guy for the next 3 seasons either way.........which isn't any terrible knock.........there is a lot of talent out there at WR..........but fans need to accept that the accolades are going to go to the guys who put up big numbers but also catch the pretty long balls and make the great RAC plays all season.