Allen's face mask penalty: You Wouldn't Like Me When I'm Angry

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

Why weren't the Rams penalized on the play too for hitting the Qb in the head.

[Big Turk]

44 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

The refs do not protect Allen like they do other QBs.  Some of it must be his reckless style but still, the horse collar tackle set a bad tone.  Dumb rule, but called correctly,  still he was hit in the helmet quite a bit.  Once that happened Allen reverted to street ball.   Face masks, laterals, etc.  
 

Thankfully he calmed down and made big plays on the last drive. Otherwise this looks like the Houston playoff game part 2 and we are questioning his growth.  
 

 

 

Horsecollar tackles are LEGAL and specifically mentioned as legal in the NFL rule book if the QB is in the pocket. It WAS a horsecollar tackle but it was NOT a penalty.

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

"Mr. McGee, Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry." - Dr Bruce Banner

 

I have never seen anything like it.  And I really don't want to see anything like it again.

First we have Justin Hollins, #58, 6'5", 248 pounds.  Allen shifts the ball to his left hand, stiff-arms him with his throwing arm and holds him off.

Then we have a second linebacker, Leonard Floyd (I think), 6'5", 240.  Allen sidesteps, ducks, and shoves Hollins into his path (by the face mask) before wrestling Hollins to the ground (by the face mask) like an old-school dog owner shoving a bad puppy's face into its mess.  Yes, that face mask penalty was entirely legit.  Allen corkscrewed the LB into the ground by the face mask, using him to take out the second LB like two bowling pins in the process.

Allen turns, and Aaron Donald is right there.  "Not this time".  Allen stiffarms and deflects him.

Donald's momentum carries him past Allen.  Allen steps up while Donald is still collecting himself and throws in the face of an onrushing 4th guy.  Through the back of the endzone, fortunately - not where it could be picked off.  But you know if he'd seen a  receiver with a throwing lane at that point, Allen would have tried to make a play.
 

Here's what I don't like - while Allen is stiff arming and wrestling Hollins around with his right arm, the ball is fully extended in his left arm and waving around in the air like a chunk of tuna over the Orca tank at Seaworld.  All it would have taken at that point is for a guy Allen was unaware of (or for Floyd) to change their target and go for the ball instead of Allen.  Fumble, and that's the ball game.

 

It was exciting to watch, though.  It's like "Offensive line?  I don't need no damned offensive line, I AM a damned offensive line!" 

You could tell it juiced our guys up a bit when they were pretty well exhausted there at the end of the game, too.

 

Question: can anyone else remember a QB being called for a face mask penalty, where it was well-deserved, ever?

 

 

 

 

 

My concern was him using his golden arm and throwing hand to grab a heavy human by the face mask and toss him around.

 

Never seen anything like that and it contributed  to my shot nerves yesterday.

 

 

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Josh can definitely get better, but in this case I don't think he had time for the check down. 

It was either a blown protection, or a blown protection call.  So where Josh may need to improve on this call is in recognizing the D pre-snap and making the right adjustment.

 

You can tell pre-snap that #58, Hollins, is NOT going to cover the guy he's lined up across from - Beasley I think.  He's revving his engine with Allen in his sights, and he's not being subtle about it.  But Dawkins takes the next guy over, leaving Hollins is "unabated to the QB". 

 

Let's look at a bit of a zoom-in a moment after your screenshot.

At the point where Hollins is already in the pocket with Allen in his sights, neither Beas nor Singletary have even started to turn yet.

Beas is kinda going "uh-oh" realizing there's no one covering him which means his guy is heading for the backfield.

At the point where Motor breaks and turns, Allen is literally already holding Hollins off.

 

What I think he might have, as this shot a fraction of a second earlier shows, is a play to Beasley.  That's what the QB is supposed to do, right? throw into the blitz?

But at the point where Allen and Bease turn, Hollins is right there and I believe it would be a dangerous throw.

 

I think the root cause of problems on this play is either a breakdown in protection, or a wrong protection call.  Allen is not behaving as though he recognizes #58 has a free path to him.  This is the part that still needs improvement, IMO

 

 

Wasn't Dawkins out of the game by this point?  I think that may have been the issue...Ty Nsekhe is used to playing RT not LT and may not have picked up the right person in that situation...

Edited September 28, 2020 by matter2003

[Motorin']

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Josh can definitely get better, but in this case I don't think he had time for the check down. 

It was either a blown protection, or a blown protection call.  So where Josh may need to improve on this call is in recognizing the D pre-snap and making the right adjustment.

 

You can tell pre-snap that #58, Hollins, is NOT going to cover the guy he's lined up across from - Beasley I think.  He's revving his engine with Allen in his sights, and he's not being subtle about it.  But Dawkins takes the next guy over, leaving Hollins is "unabated to the QB". 

 

Let's look at a bit of a zoom-in a moment after your screenshot.

At the point where Hollins is already in the pocket with Allen in his sights, neither Beas nor Singletary have even started to turn yet.

Beas is kinda going "uh-oh" realizing there's no one covering him which means his guy is heading for the backfield.

At the point where Motor breaks and turns, Allen is literally already holding Hollins off.

 

What I think he might have, as this shot a fraction of a second earlier shows, is a play to Beasley.  That's what the QB is supposed to do, right? throw into the blitz?

But at the point where Allen and Bease turn, Hollins is right there and I believe it would be a dangerous throw.

 

I think the root cause of problems on this play is either a breakdown in protection, or a wrong protection call.  Allen is not behaving as though he recognizes #58 has a free path to him.  This is the part that still needs improvement, IMO

 

I think he could have just floated it in Motor's direction. It would have been more helpful if he ran a swing route with this head turned towards the QB.

 

But it's that turn your back to the line and roll left move that gets him in so much trouble. Josh could have moved straight back in the pocket and floated it to the flat.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Motorin'

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, matter2003 said:

Wasn't Dawkins out of the game by this point?  I think that may have been the issue...Ty Nsekhe is used to playing RT not T and may not have picked up he right person in that situation...

 

Good catch.  Yes, Dawkins was injured and went out 4 plays earlier.  It is possible it was a blown protection and not a blown protection call.

This is where casual fans blame the OL but really, unless you know the protection call and the assignments we can't tell who's at fault.

 

The only thing we can say for sure is that Allen is not expecting to have an unblocked defender closing on his blindside on this play.

35 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

Kyle Brandt on GMFB showed this play along with the one where he tried the crazy lateral to McKenzie and described it as" Sugar High Josh Allen", playing playground football.  He said it with all due respect and called Allen the league MEP. (most entertaining player). One thing for sure, he is fun to watch.  

 

Is there a clip of this segment up anywhere yet?  I'd love to see it.

 

Apparently some of the offensive players call Josh Allen "Dad".  I think it's more like "Double Espresso Dad" than "Sugar High Josh Allen".  Abbreviate "DeD" which seems a propos because 1) it's a play on Dad 2) we fear that's what Allen is gonna be if he keeps playing linebacker from the pocket.

 

But just in case....NO SKITTLES FOR YOU, JOSH!  He and Marshawn Lynch should do a commercial.

[Bob in STL]

3 hours ago, matter2003 said:

 

Horsecollar tackles are LEGAL and specifically mentioned as legal in the NFL rule book if the QB is in the pocket. It WAS a horsecollar tackle but it was NOT a penalty.

I said “dumb rule, but called correctly “ in my post. 
 

I bet that tackle draws a flag against Brady and other top tier QBs.  I seriously doubt Brady gets a flag for complaining about it either.  

Edited September 28, 2020 by Bob in STL

[hemma]

Intercepted at NFL FO:

 

"Dear Your Honor Mr. Commissioner Goodell,

 

Please make the bad man stop  He's very mean..

 

Respectfully submitted,

Justin Hollins"

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

I think he could have just floated it in Motor's direction. It would have been more helpful if he ran a swing route with this head turned towards the QB.

 

But it's that turn your back to the line and roll left move that gets him in so much trouble. Josh could have moved straight back in the pocket and floated it to the flat.

 

Yes.  Josh Allen could have executed a different play and so could Motor.

 

My point is that the problem isn't Josh Allen missing an available and wide open Motor, it's Josh Allen and his outlet receivers not being aware there's an unblocked blitzer on his blindside.  So in executing the called play and waiting for the called routes to develop (including Motor's), Josh wound up with 240 lb of unexpected angry beef in his face.

 

And THAT'S the point that needs to get better.

[buffaloboyinATL]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

 

Is there a clip of this segment up anywhere yet?  I'd love to see it.

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, hemma said:

Intercepted at NFL FO:

 

"Dear Your Honor Mr. Commissioner Goodell,

 

Please make the bad man stop  He's very mean..

 

Respectfully submitted,

Justin Hollins"

 

The crap is just never gonna stop for Hollins today.  "Fam!  You OK?"

 

I forget who it was, but someone in a pre-Denver game interview laughed and said "Come On!" when Von Miller said of Josh Allen that he had a stiff arm like Deon Sanders.  Von Miller said "no, watch film, he does". 

 

I don't think Van Nuys, Hollins, and Donald would laugh.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 hours ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

 

 

 

Nate will be FULLY converted When the Bills CRUSH the Pats

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by SlimShady'sSpaceForce
added Fully

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

 

 

That's fantastic.  "Sugar High Josh Allen".    No skittles for you, Josh!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

57 minutes ago, WideNine said:

My concern was him using his golden arm and throwing hand to grab a heavy human by the face mask and toss him around.

Never seen anything like that and it contributed  to my shot nerves yesterday.

 

No Lies.  Hopefully Lorenzo Alexander [Edit: and current teammates!!!!] got on the horn to Allen last night and said (like he did after Allen jumped Barr) NEVER do that again.

 

A dirty player could have done all sorts of ***** to Allen's arm on that play.

[ROCBillsBeliever]

2 hours ago, JMF2006 said:

He plays QB like a linebacker

 

Nope never seen a QB punish defenders like Josh.

 

Now cut it out...we already know your Buffalo tough  

 

I seem to recall a certain Buffalo Bills QB who had a knack for punishing defenders...

 

 

[Da webster guy]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yes.  Josh Allen could have executed a different play and so could Motor.

 

My point is that the problem isn't Josh Allen missing an available and wide open Motor, it's Josh Allen and his outlet receivers not being aware there's an unblocked blitzer on his blindside.  So in executing the called play and waiting for the called routes to develop (including Motor's), Josh wound up with 240 lb of unexpected angry beef in his face.

 

And THAT'S the point that needs to get better.

This always frustrates me, pro receivers not checking in with whats happening after the snap with qb protection.  Nothing worse than half your wr's running deep routes when a blitzer is coming free to your qb.

 

John Brown is the best at this.  Always cuts his route short and gets available if he feels like the heat is on Josh prematurely.  We missed that guy yesterday, he would have moved the chains for us and slowed the game down in the 2nd half.

[Matt_In_NH]

3 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

I thought for sure he was going to fumble there.  That's an awful habit he has.

I am surprised at the number of people who don't get this.

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, DDCC said:

It was a penalty

Take a lap

[ColoradoBills]

6 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Take a lap

 

I googled "DDCC".  It's a marketing and communications consulting firm in LA.

Just a disgruntled Rams fan joining a few hours ago.

 

Am I right @DDCC

Edited September 28, 2020 by ColoradoBills

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 hours ago, ROCBillsBeliever said:

 

I seem to recall a certain Buffalo Bills QB who had a knack for punishing defenders...

 

 

 

The break his leg for the INT play?

 

I'll keep my lunch thanks.  

 

4 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I googled "DDCC".  It's a marketing and communications consulting firm in LA.

Just a disgruntled Rams fan joining a few hours ago.

 

Am I right @DDCC

 

I figured out he / she was looking to up their post count this AM.  

 

Arguing with Hap.   LOL  

Edited September 28, 2020 by SlimShady'sSpaceForce

[The Dean]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

"Mr. McGee, Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry." - Dr Bruce Banner

 

I have never seen anything like it.  And I really don't want to see anything like it again.

First we have Justin Hollins, #58, 6'5", 248 pounds.  Allen shifts the ball to his left hand, stiff-arms him with his throwing arm and holds him off.

Then we have a second linebacker, Leonard Floyd (I think), 6'5", 240.  Allen sidesteps, ducks, and shoves Hollins into his path (by the face mask) before wrestling Hollins to the ground (by the face mask) like an old-school dog owner shoving a bad puppy's face into its mess.  Yes, that face mask penalty was entirely legit.  Allen corkscrewed the LB into the ground by the face mask, using him to take out the second LB like two bowling pins in the process.

Allen turns, and Aaron Donald is right there.  "Not this time".  Allen stiffarms and deflects him.

Donald's momentum carries him past Allen.  Allen steps up while Donald is still collecting himself and throws in the face of an onrushing 4th guy.  Through the back of the endzone, fortunately - not where it could be picked off.  But you know if he'd seen a  receiver with a throwing lane at that point, Allen would have tried to make a play.
 

Here's what I don't like - while Allen is stiff arming and wrestling Hollins around with his right arm, the ball is fully extended in his left arm and waving around in the air like a chunk of tuna over the Orca tank at Seaworld.  All it would have taken at that point is for a guy Allen was unaware of (or for Floyd) to change their target and go for the ball instead of Allen.  Fumble, and that's the ball game.

 

It was exciting to watch, though.  It's like "Offensive line?  I don't need no damned offensive line, I AM a damned offensive line!" 

You could tell it juiced our guys up a bit when they were pretty well exhausted there at the end of the game, too.

 

Question: can anyone else remember a QB being called for a face mask penalty, where it was well-deserved, ever?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Terrific write up. Hap.  I may have seen a QB called for a facemask, but nothing like that. And while I don't want Josh doing that stuff, and taking penalties, I kind of dig it!

 

Has anyone explained the UC conduct penalty on Allen? Certainly it can't be for sitting on the ground complaining to the official. If that was considered a penalty, Brady would lead the league in UC calls. My only conclusion is he said something REALLY nasty. But I've read nothing about it.

[Ralonzo]

4 hours ago, matter2003 said:

I mean Allen is like a one man wrecking crew...last week he trucks Kyle Van Noy and stiff arms him to the ground effectively putting him in time out and telling him to "think about what you are trying to do and if that is something you should be doing while you are there" and then a 315 lb DLineman wants to get in on the action after he saw what Allen did to his teammate and said "Oh hell no! Nobody does that to Kyle without answering to me!" and Allen tells him to bring it and trucks him too...

 

Is this real life anymore?? Like is our QB just the baddest Mofo on the field every week??

 

[JMF2006]

1 hour ago, ROCBillsBeliever said:

 

I seem to recall a certain Buffalo Bills QB who had a knack for punishing defenders...

 

 

Ouch !!

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, The Dean said:

 

 

Terrific write up. Hap.  I may have seen a QB called for a facemask, but nothing like that. And while I don't want Josh doing that stuff, and taking penalties, I kind of dig it!

 

Has anyone explained the UC conduct penalty on Allen? Certainly it can't be for sitting on the ground complaining to the official. If that was considered a penalty, Brady would lead the league in UC calls. My only conclusion is he said something REALLY nasty. But I've read nothing about it.

 

Allen said in one of the things I read that he has to watch his language and what he says in those situations so I am assuming you are right.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

And to think he neutralized the aforementioned Rams one-handed while refusing to be brought down to the ground--simply imposed his will in that moment--the sheer grit this kid has in spades is mind-boggling. IIRC the announcers gave him a similar compliment in that moment to what was often said about Kelly, that he plays QB with a linebacker's mentality--Buffalo Ball! 

[fansince88]

To answer the age old question: https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2020/9/28/21458982/buffalo-bills-vs-los-angeles-rams-josh-allens-qb-facemask-penalty-doesnt-happen-frequently BTW, yes. If a tree falls and nobody is there to hear it it does make noise.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

 

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think "like a chunk of Tuna over the Orca tank at Seaworld" is more illustrative of the allure that temptingly poised ball has for defenders, but I fundamentally agree with you on all points.   It can not too much be emphasized that this is a Very Dangerous Play.

 

I *think* Kelly may have drawn an unsportsmanlike once or twice, but that's the last I can remember.

 

 

Was he called for a facemask on that one?  Offensive players are allowed "incidental contact"

 

Found this little gem in the way back archives:

 

"Louis Oliver gained a measure of revenge from his benching in the playoff loss. He played the whole game, made 13 tackles (11 solo), broke up one pass and intercepted one in the end zone. He would have returned it 103 yards for a touchdown if he had eluded quarterback Jim Kelly. Kelly tackled him out of bounds, grabbing his facemask. But no penalty was called, much to Shula's chagrin."

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1991-09-02-9102030396-story.html

[The Wiz]

4 hours ago, matter2003 said:

 

Horsecollar tackles are LEGAL and specifically mentioned as legal in the NFL rule book if the QB is in the pocket. It WAS a horsecollar tackle but it was NOT a penalty.

Not just in Allen's case, but for any qb, don't you think that's a pretty dumb rule when they have done everything that they can to protect qbs in the league? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, The Dean said:

Terrific write up. Hap.  I may have seen a QB called for a facemask, but nothing like that. And while I don't want Josh doing that stuff, and taking penalties, I kind of dig it!

 

Has anyone explained the UC conduct penalty on Allen? Certainly it can't be for sitting on the ground complaining to the official. If that was considered a penalty, Brady would lead the league in UC calls. My only conclusion is he said something REALLY nasty. But I've read nothing about it.

 

You can see in the game film that Allen gets to his feet steaming and tugging on his jersey with both hands indicating horsecollar.  He approaches the ref after the ref signals LA ball.  Allen doesn't touch the ref or do the physical intimidation chest-to-chest thing, but you can see by his posture he is making a case (hands out, palms up) then is really angry when it's denied (hands close to fists)

It doesn't seem to occur to Ford, Kroft, and the other lineman there (Williams?) that at that moment, having totally failed to protect their QB from being strip-sacked, they might need to protect their QB from being ejected! 

 

Perhaps next time it will.

[NewEra]

What a sad 2nd half performance by our OL and/or the coaching staff in pass protection.  Josh would drop back and run for his life...not afraid of taking casualties along the way 

Edited September 28, 2020 by NewEra

[Warcodered]

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

As someone said. Maybe a ref had $ on the over

 

 

 

i kid I kid

 

sort of

[The Dean]

2 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

And to think he neutralized the aforementioned Rams one-handed while refusing to be brought down to the ground--simply imposed his will in that moment--the sheer grit this kid has in spades is mind-boggling. IIRC the announcers gave him a similar compliment in that moment to what was often said about Kelly, that he plays QB with a linebacker's mentality--Buffalo Ball! 

 

2 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

 

 

Found this little gem in the way back archives:

 

"Louis Oliver gained a measure of revenge from his benching in the playoff loss. He played the whole game, made 13 tackles (11 solo), broke up one pass and intercepted one in the end zone. He would have returned it 103 yards for a touchdown if he had eluded quarterback Jim Kelly. Kelly tackled him out of bounds, grabbing his facemask. But no penalty was called, much to Shula's chagrin."

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1991-09-02-9102030396-story.html

 

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You can see in the game film that Allen gets to his feet steaming and tugging on his jersey with both hands indicating horsecollar.  He approaches the ref after the ref signals LA ball.  Allen doesn't touch the ref or do the physical intimidation chest-to-chest thing, but you can see by his posture he is making a case (hands out, palms up) then is really angry when it's denied (hands close to fists)

It doesn't seem to occur to Ford, Kroft, and the other lineman there (Williams?) that at that moment, having totally failed to protect their QB from being strip-sacked, they might need to protect their QB from being ejected! 

 

Perhaps next time it will.

 

 

I know he's often compared (understandably) to Big Ben and Cam, I think Kelly might be as apropos. He clearly has more physical tools as JK and it looks like he has all the grit, too.  Comparing one's toughness at QB to Kelly is a very high compliment. That just HAS to fire your teammates up.

 

 

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

 

And there it is!

[RiotAct]

great write up.  I dunno how he does it.  If any of these behemoths were running after me at full speed, I’d probably crumple like a cheap newspaper while simultaneously pi**ing my pants!

[The Wiz]

16 minutes ago, The Dean said:

 

 

 

 

I know he's often compared (understandably) to Big Ben and Cam, I think Kelly might be as apropos. He clearly has more physical tools as JK and it looks like he has all the grit, too.  Comparing one's toughness at QB to Kelly is a very high compliment. That just HAS to fire your teammates up.

 

 

And there it is!

Never happened. Just like the reception never happened and it was a clear int. 

[Simon]

10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 "like a chunk of Tuna over the Orca tank at Seaworld"

 

He does this so often (I think twice a game I have to deny my instinct to jump through the TV screen and chop his wrist) that we should come up with a short catchphrase for it.

 

Uh-oh, he's Dangling the Lure again!

There's The Tuna Loaf......

No Orca Calls today, Josh.

 

[Warcodered]

54 minutes ago, The Dean said:

And there it is!

I' mean it's not a big deal or anything only caused the fumble that let the Rams take the lead no biggie penalty to Josh for complaining about it.

[The Dean]

6 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

I' mean it's not a big deal or anything only caused the fumble that let the Rams take the lead no biggie penalty to Josh for complaining about it.

 

 

When you win, it's no big deal. But that's the kind of s#it that has cost the Bills in the past. I think/hope this is the kind of team that can play through that. 

 

BTW, I understand stuff like that has probably cost most/all teams, from time to time. But I'm clearly more invested when he happens to the Bills.

Edited September 28, 2020 by The Dean

[Punching Bag]

10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well if he gets in their face after a strip sack and says whatever he said that drew the "unsportsmanlike", he's not going to be popular and he'll get the "Jerry Hughes" treatment.  Hopefully he apologized to the guy and today will send him a "make up note" (or a case of Josh wine, or both, whatever is allowed).

 

 

Nuts and cantaloupes.  Let player figure out meaning.

[Punching Bag]

10 hours ago, Billzfan37 said:

It's like the Jim Kelly era where the threw a pick and broke the guy's leg tackling the defensive back that had picked him off.  Check out the video on-line of Jim Kelly destroying Anthony Phillips after a pick.  That's who we have at QB now - except a much stronger and overall more athletic guy.

 

One of my favorite plays.  It was a clean tackle.  It is clear from his expression he was thinking "You are a QB so what are you doing tackling?"  Unfortunately quality is very poor.