Duke back. CB King released.

[machine gun kelly]

Billieve, that’s why I really think both Davis and Hodgins have a great shot.  I can see D. Williams getting the PS though, and think he should.

[eball]

I think Duke getting a chance last year was a nice story, and his TD against the Titans was great. That said, he is what he is — a big guy who isn’t very fast, doesn’t get great separation, and couldn’t crack a Bills’ lineup yearning for a “tough catch” guy for most of the year. When he got his big chance in the playoffs and Josh looked his way it was a disappointment. It will be a shock to me if he makes this team given who the Bills drafted and with the addition of Diggs. 

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, eball said:

I think Duke getting a chance last year was a nice story, and his TD against the Titans was great. That said, he is what he is — a big guy who isn’t very fast, doesn’t get great separation, and couldn’t crack a Bills’ lineup yearning for a “tough catch” guy for most of the year. When he got his big chance in the playoffs and Josh looked his way it was a disappointment. It will be a shock to me if he makes this team given who the Bills drafted and with the addition of Diggs. 

I love Duke's story, so I've been a Duke fan.  

 

But putting that aside, I think what you say is short-sighted.  

 

I think "he is what he is" is wrong.  He was, essentially, a rookie last season.  Yeah, he'd been in an NFL camp once before, and yeah he played in Canada, but Canadian football is more like glorified college ball, and Duke didn't have much of a college career.  So he was like a rookie, or rookie+ last season.   Look for a minute at all of Dawson Knox's ugly moments last season.  That's what rookies play like.  Knox saw more time than Duke because he had no competition at TE, so he had more opportunities to make plays and drop passes.   We're all excited about what we think will be natural improvement for Knox, and I think we'll see Duke get better, also.

 

So to say Duke is what he is isn't correct.   He will be better this season than he was last season. 

 

Now, of course, he needs to be much better, because Diggs is taking one of the receiver slots, Roberts is more or less a lock, so there are two or maybe three slots left.  One or more of those slots requires a serious special teams contribution, and Duke hasn't shown that he can be that guy. 

 

But he has one big thing going for him, and that is that his biggest competition should come from the rookies, and the rookies will have very limited opportunity to prove themselves this month.  At least one of them has to be a real stand out, because Duke will not go quietly, and because in this season it's a big risk to go with unproven (rookie) talent.  There's a good chance there will be more injuries than usual, and there's also the chance of losing guys to COVID-19.  Coaches are going to want reserves they know can count on, and rookies beyond the third round usually can't be counted on.  If Duke shows the natural improvement I expect he will, he will send a message to McDermott that says he can be counted on.

 

Plus, McDermott wants guys with Duke's intensity and competitiveness.  Any receiver fighting for a backup role will have to bring it at the same level or more.  The rookies have one month of camp to prove they have it.  

 

I think it's way too early to count Duke out.  Ordinary spring and summer, maybe.  This summer, it's different.  

[BillsFanForever19]

Surprised they let King go over Nick Easley or even Duke himself. With all of our WR's returning from last season and the additions of Stefon Diggs, Gabriel Davis, and Isaiah Hodgins - i'd be shocked if Duke or especially Easley made the squad. They must feel pretty comfortable rolling with 5 CB's and Dane Jackson being the 5th.

[GoBills808]

13 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I love Duke's story, so I've been a Duke fan.  

 

But putting that aside, I think what you say is short-sighted.  

 

I think "he is what he is" is wrong.  He was, essentially, a rookie last season.  Yeah, he'd been in an NFL camp once before, and yeah he played in Canada, but Canadian football is more like glorified college ball, and Duke didn't have much of a college career.  So he was like a rookie, or rookie+ last season.   Look for a minute at all of Dawson Knox's ugly moments last season.  That's what rookies play like.  Knox saw more time than Duke because he had no competition at TE, so he had more opportunities to make plays and drop passes.   We're all excited about what we think will be natural improvement for Knox, and I think we'll see Duke get better, also.

 

So to say Duke is what he is isn't correct.   He will be better this season than he was last season. 

 

Now, of course, he needs to be much better, because Diggs is taking one of the receiver slots, Roberts is more or less a lock, so there are two or maybe three slots left.  One or more of those slots requires a serious special teams contribution, and Duke hasn't shown that he can be that guy. 

 

But he has one big thing going for him, and that is that his biggest competition should come from the rookies, and the rookies will have very limited opportunity to prove themselves this month.  At least one of them has to be a real stand out, because Duke will not go quietly, and because in this season it's a big risk to go with unproven (rookie) talent.  There's a good chance there will be more injuries than usual, and there's also the chance of losing guys to COVID-19.  Coaches are going to want reserves they know can count on, and rookies beyond the third round usually can't be counted on.  If Duke shows the natural improvement I expect he will, he will send a message to McDermott that says he can be counted on.

 

Plus, McDermott wants guys with Duke's intensity and competitiveness.  Any receiver fighting for a backup role will have to bring it at the same level or more.  The rookies have one month of camp to prove they have it.  

 

I think it's way too early to count Duke out.  Ordinary spring and summer, maybe.  This summer, it's different.  

I would put some money on Williams not making the active roster

[TroutDog]

5 hours ago, Putin said:

He’s a good blocker may also compete for the # 4 WR spot 

Yeah, that’s not enough in my opinion. With this team guys we would have used to love aren’t going to cut it anymore. Just reality of a strong team. 

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I would put some money on Williams not making the active roster

If I had to bet, I'd be with you.  He didn't make the progress I expected last season. 

 

But I didn't say I expected he'd make the roster.  I said I expect he will be better than last year, and I said that given the realities of the 2020 season, a guy with experience seems to have an additional edge.  I said I wouldn't count him out yet.  

[TroutDog]

3 hours ago, Beast said:

 

I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised, especially with how they used him in the playoff game at Houston. The coaches see something worthwhile.

Because of the two WR’s we drafted and Diggs...it’s a different team now. Not to mention he wasn’t very good in that game. 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

Yeah, that’s not enough in my opinion. With this team guys we would have used to love aren’t going to cut it anymore. Just reality of a strong team. 

Right.  

 

In particular, there's almost always tough competition at the backup receiver spot.  Diggs' arrival makes the competition that much tougher.  

 

Think of it this way:  There's really only one spot for Williams to compete for, and that's the #4 receiver slot.  Is he going to be the guy who gets on the field in double wide or empty backfield sets?  If he isn't that guy, then he needs to be a special teamer or a developmental player who has showed promise.  Developmental player was his role last season; tough for him to be in that role again this year. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, Shaw66 said:

If I had to bet, I'd be with you.  He didn't make the progress I expected last season. 

 

But I didn't say I expected he'd make the roster.  I said I expect he will be better than last year, and I said that given the realities of the 2020 season, a guy with experience seems to have an additional edge.  I said I wouldn't count him out yet.  

I also don’t think there are as many spots up for grabs as you think. Between Diggs/Brown/Beasley/Roberts/Davis imo there’s probably only one or possibly two fits for McKenzie/Williams/Hodgins/Foster

[Malazan]

The legend of Kiko Alonso has finally been replaced with the Legend of the Duke.

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

Because of the two WR’s we drafted and Diggs...it’s a different team now. Not to mention he wasn’t very good in that game. 

Exactly.  Much tougher competition for one fewer spot than last season.  

 

Still, I won't be surprised if he makes the team.  The big question is will he be noticeably better than last season (in other words, can he build on a rookie season where he showed he at least can play with guys in this league)?

[NewEra]

5 hours ago, TBBills said:

Duke made 3 very good catches in the playoffs so he has earned the chance.

He also dropped some catchable passes in the playoffs.  

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I also don’t think there are as many spots up for grabs as you think. Between Diggs/Brown/Beasley/Roberts/Davis imo there’s probably only one or possibly two fits for McKenzie/Williams/Hodgins/Foster

I think that's probably correct, although I'm not awarding a roster spot to any rookie beyond round 3.  If Williams is clearly better than Davis in training camp, then the coaches may very well be thinking that Williams is in the top five and Davis is looking to win one of two spots.  That's especially true if Williams is better in camp and Davis shows some special teams promise.  

 

The addition of Diggs makes McKenzie somewhat more expendable, because he's never shown great stuff as a receiver, except the jet sweep.  With Diggs and Roberts, they have that covered.  

 

Foster needs to emerge big time or prove that he's so important to the special teams that they can't let him go.   

 

Given all this competition, Hodgins almost certainly is on the outside looking in.  

 

So there's clearly a route for Duke, but like you, if I had to bet, I'd say he probably is looking for a job in September.  (And I wouldn't be surprised if he finds one.)

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think that's probably correct, although I'm not awarding a roster spot to any rookie beyond round 3.  If Williams is clearly better than Davis in training camp, then the coaches may very well be thinking that Williams is in the top five and Davis is looking to win one of two spots.  That's especially true if Williams is better in camp and Davis shows some special teams promise.  

 

The addition of Diggs makes McKenzie somewhat more expendable, because he's never shown great stuff as a receiver, except the jet sweep.  With Diggs and Roberts, they have that covered.  

 

Foster needs to emerge big time or prove that he's so important to the special teams that they can't let him go.   

 

Given all this competition, Hodgins almost certainly is on the outside looking in.  

 

So there's clearly a route for Duke, but like you, if I had to bet, I'd say he probably is looking for a job in September.  (And I wouldn't be surprised if he finds one.)

I think Davis is almost a lock to make the team given how the staff brings along their draft classes...I can't see him not making the squad. That gives us Diggs-Brown-Beasley-Roberts-Davis and I'm guessing McKenzie to round out the six actives since Roberts will be ST also. I don't think they're planning on using him on offense much, so I believe McKenzie will still have a role. 

[TroutDog]

26 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Right.  

 

In particular, there's almost always tough competition at the backup receiver spot.  Diggs' arrival makes the competition that much tougher.  

 

Think of it this way:  There's really only one spot for Williams to compete for, and that's the #4 receiver slot.  Is he going to be the guy who gets on the field in double wide or empty backfield sets?  If he isn't that guy, then he needs to be a special teamer or a developmental player who has showed promise.  Developmental player was his role last season; tough for him to be in that role again this year. 

I agree that he needs to find another role but he’s not fast enough for teams so he’ll have to beat out the young tall kid from the draft...and I’m not sure if he can. 

24 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Exactly.  Much tougher competition for one fewer spot than last season.  

 

Still, I won't be surprised if he makes the team.  The big question is will he be noticeably better than last season (in other words, can he build on a rookie season where he showed he at least can play with guys in this league)?

Agreed...but he also shows he has more upside than the two new draftees and I’m not sure he can simply due to speed. 

[transplantbillsfan]

6 hours ago, TroutDog said:

While I recognize many (me among them) love the underdog story, I’m surprised he’s still on the team. Must be a DNA thing. 

 

I will be fairly surprised--though not shocked because this offseason, familiarity will be a huge benefit as far as roster competition goes--if Duke makes the final roster of 53 men.

 

Would've been more shocking if he weren't part of the top 80, though.

Edited August 9, 2020 by transplantbillsfan

[Patrick Duffy]

I think he will likely make the PS  and be available if someone gets sick/injured.

[3rdand12]

5 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Personally, I think it's unfair to judge him based on how he was inactive for 12 regular season games, then thrust into the offense in a playoff game and given 10 targets.

 

I still think he CAN be a good WR.  Hopefully we see better roster management in the next full season.

nice point. I was one bitching about not seeing him after showing up preseason decently.

[Bangarang]

I still don’t get what the big deal is about this dude. He doesn’t have a good story and he’s a fringe roster guy. 

[Dablitzkrieg]

I honestly hope that the rookies pan out.  I like Duke, but need these guys to play well.  Most like practice squad.  I wonder if they will keep 5 or 6 WR this year 

[3rdand12]

10 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

I still don’t get what the big deal is about this dude. He doesn’t have a good story and he’s a fringe roster guy. 

He does have good story.

 But like any of the WRs battling for 5 , 6 spot. There is no big deal about them. just good for discussion and what ifs  etc.

 : )

[Hapless Bills Fan]

33 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

I honestly hope that the rookies pan out.  I like Duke, but need these guys to play well.  Most like practice squad.  I wonder if they will keep 5 or 6 WR this year 

 

I think they kept 6 last year and I can't imagine less at this point, like DB it's a fairly injury prone position   Brown, Beas, McKinsey, Roberts, Foster, and Williams.

 

I'm not sure if they had one or two guys on the practice squad as well?  Rayray McCloud was one, I think Easley spent a bunch of the season on the PS.

[TroutDog]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I will be fairly surprised--though not shocked because this offseason, familiarity will be a huge benefit as far as roster competition goes--if Duke makes the final roster of 53 men.

 

Would've been more shocking if he weren't part of the top 80, though.

I agree but he, to me, is not a clear piece of the puzzle so I wondered why he’s still there as he is so singular in ability (meaning can’t play teams). 
 

I have no doubt Beane and McD have a plan...just perplexes me. Again, don’t get me wrong, I’m rooting for him I just don’t see it. 

[Bangarang]

36 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

He does have good story.

 But like any of the WRs battling for 5 , 6 spot. There is no big deal about them. just good for discussion and what ifs  etc.

 : )

Meh, his story isn’t unique. I really only care about the top 3 guys. The rookies are intriguing though. The league has plenty of guys like Duke.

[Don Otreply]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think they kept 6 last year and I can't imagine less at this point, like DB it's a fairly injury prone position   Brown, Beas, McKinsey, Roberts, Foster, and Williams.

 

I'm not sure if they had one or two guys on the practice squad as well?  Rayray McCloud was one, I think Easley spent a bunch of the season on the PS.

Diggs, Brown, Beasley, Williams, Roberts, Mckittric, Foster, mix in the two rookies and Foster and Mckittric are less secure than Williams, just my opinion.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Don Otreply said:

Diggs, Brown, Beasley, Williams, Roberts, Mckittric, Foster, mix in the two rookies and Foster and Mckittric are less secure than Williams, just my opinion.

 

It partly depends on what shape and with what knowledge of the playbook they show up.  Williams said at locker cleanout that he was going to work out with John Brown in the off season, crisp up his route running, and trim down/improve his speed.  If he did, maybe?

 

The thing about McKensie is by the end of the season, the Bills were using him in more of a complete route tree vs. just for the gadget plays.  Unless he really ups his route running game and quickness, I don't think Williams has as complete of a game.  Just my opinion.

[Don Otreply]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It partly depends on what shape and with what knowledge of the playbook they show up.  Williams said at locker cleanout that he was going to work out with John Brown in the off season, crisp up his route running, and trim down/improve his speed.  If he did, maybe?

 

The thing about McKensie is by the end of the season, the Bills were using him in more of a complete route tree vs. just for the gadget plays.  Unless he really ups his route running game and quickness, I don't think Williams has as complete of a game.  Just my opinion.

It could go that way, the thing is Diggs does what Mckittric does only better, and they will likely be using Stephon a lot, that and of the four highlights of Mc he falls down on two of them after the catch without contact... It sticks in my mind for some reason...?  but again you could be right. 
 

Go Bills!!!

[BobbyC81]

8 hours ago, SCBills said:

Tend to agree.  We gave him an audition against the Jets reg season finale, in which he played well enough anddddd then we made him the primary WR in a Playoff Game?? lol... of which he didn’t come through.   However, neither did John Brown.  

WR room is definitely crowded, but I’m not sure who I’d rather keep at WR 4/5 (Gabe Davis is likely getting one of those spots).  
 

Duke vs Foster vs Hodgins

 

Foster apparently continues to show a questionable attitude (immaturity?) so I’d consider him a likely cut candidate.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

24 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

It could go that way, the thing is Diggs does what Mckittric does only better, and they will likely be using Stephon a lot, that and of the four highlights of Mc he falls down on two of them after the catch without contact... It sticks in my mind for some reason...?  but again you could be right. 
 

Go Bills!!!

 

So part of my thinking is: if Diggs goes down, or Bease goes down, or Brown goes down...who could fill in for them?  Because this season, chances increase they're gonna need a fill-in.

 

All of them make their bread and butter with quickness and surgical route running.  Now McKensie, he's no Stefon Diggs, but he does have some quickness, he can run most of their routes. 

 

I don't think Duke can, at all.

 

Maybe I'm off base, that's just how I see it.

 

3 minutes ago, ColeB said:

Foster apparently continues to show a questionable attitude (immaturity?) so I’d consider him a likely cut candidate.

 

Can you say a bit more about this?  Sounds like you got some info

[Alphadawg7]

IMO Duke > McKenzie.

 

What do we even need McKenzie anymore for?  He's only a gadget player, and we have a number of people on this team who can handle those gadgety routes.  He's really small and never made any real impact other than a cool play 2 or 3 times a year.  I want to score points, and I would rather have a big target who can high point passes or be physical in the Redzone vs a small gadget guy that rarely touches the ball.  

 

I have nothing against McKenzie, but this is a rebuilt WR core and I just don't get the roster spot he would take up in those listing him as making the final roster.  I don't feel like he brings enough to the table to justify beating out some of the other guys that are in the locker room, including Duke.  

 

My way too early WR depth chart predictions:

 

Locked up:  Diggs, Brown, Cole.  Starting outside guys and slot are 100% locked barring injury.

 

Highly likely to make the cut:  Roberts (for his ST contributions), Gabriel Davis.

 

If we keep only 5, those above are certainly the most likely to be the 5.  

 

6th WR spot:  Duke, McKenzie, Hodgins, Easley.  For me, Duke has the edge here, and Hodgins is the most intriguing given he's a rookie.  I also would not count out Easley, they keep bringing him back, so they seem to like him.  And with the rest our WR group upgraded and bigger already, he could sneak in as a backup slot WR if he shows out in camp.  

NOTE:  Roberts will likely be 6th on the depth chart IMO, so technically who ever wins this "6th spot" will probably be ahead of Roberts either week 1 or sometime during the season IMO.  

 

My final prediction (we keep 6):  Diggs, Brown, Cole, Davis, Duke, Roberts.  Hodgins and Easley go to PS

 

I think less experienced players like rookies and Easley are going to be hurt by not having a preseason and as much prep time.  Duke has a year in our system and some reps with Josh.  The team seems to really love Duke in the locker room as well, so do the coaches.  He plays with an edge to him as well.  So, for me, do not underestimate the lack or prep time to players new to this team.  Its going to be MUCH harder to make the roster this year for later round rookies and UDFA rookies than its ever been due to the deep and talented roster coupled with the impact of COVID on reps and opportunities.  

[JESSEFEFFER]

29 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So part of my thinking is: if Diggs goes down, or Bease goes down, or Brown goes down...who could fill in for them?  Because this season, chances increase they're gonna need a fill-in.

 

All of them make their bread and butter with quickness and surgical route running.  Now McKensie, he's no Stefon Diggs, but he does have some quickness, he can run most of their routes. 

 

I don't think Duke can, at all.

 

Maybe I'm off base, that's just how I see it.

 

 

Can you say a bit more about this?  Sounds like you got some info

I think Foster had turf toe last year which is difficult to overcome while playing.  I never sensed an attitude problem.  If there is something to it, I'd wonder what it is.

 

Duke injured his right shoulder vs the Dolphins.  I suspect a sprained AC joint.  

 

We never know what these players are dealing with and how it affects what they can do.

Edited August 9, 2020 by JESSEFEFFER

[BobbyC81]

34 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So part of my thinking is: if Diggs goes down, or Bease goes down, or Brown goes down...who could fill in for them?  Because this season, chances increase they're gonna need a fill-in.

 

All of them make their bread and butter with quickness and surgical route running.  Now McKensie, he's no Stefon Diggs, but he does have some quickness, he can run most of their routes. 

 

I don't think Duke can, at all.

 

Maybe I'm off base, that's just how I see it.

 

 

Can you say a bit more about this?  Sounds like you got some info

Nothing that wasn’t posted here.  After he was initially signed, he was cut and camp observers had made comments about a lazy attitude.  They brought him back, he got chances and played well.  Then the team added Brown & Beasley so Foster was demoted and camp observers said he had poor body language and he seemed to end up in McD’s dog house. He didn’t play much last season but they kept him on the roster.

[Freddie's Dead]

Big Duke fan.  He stepped up big time in the Houston game, minus the drop.  I'm not willing to dump him for that one.  If you are, then are you dumping SmokeY for stepping OB on the 4, or my guy McKittrick for his TD drop?  I'm not willing to dump the Duke for one bad play, when he shows so much potential as a big target.  No question though, the last three WR spots are up for grabs, so the Duke better bring his A-numbah-won game.

[GoBills808]

18 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

Big Duke fan.  He stepped up big time in the Houston game, minus the drop.  I'm not willing to dump him for that one.  If you are, then are you dumping SmokeY for stepping OB on the 4, or my guy McKittrick for his TD drop?  I'm not willing to dump the Duke for one bad play, when he shows so much potential as a big target.  No question though, the last three WR spots are up for grabs, so the Duke better bring his A-numbah-won game.

4 catches on 10 targets for 49 yards is stepping up big time?

[SCBills]

McKenzie is exciting on the occasional end-around but I don’t ever want to see him out running routes for us again.  
 

If it’s him vs Duke, please keep Duke.

 

We have speed in Diggs and Brown and could use a big body WR. 
 

Gabe Davis could provide a big, physical WR as well, but as a rookie, I have no clue what to expect from him. 
 

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by SCBills

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

McKenzie is exciting on the occasional end-around but I don’t ever want to see him out running routes for us again.  
 

If it’s him vs Duke, please keep Duke.

 

We have speed in Diggs and Brown and could use a big body WR. 
 

Gabe Davis could provide a big, physical WR as well, but as a rookie, I have no clue what to expect from him. 
 

 

Davis’s catch radius looks awesome. If it translates at the pro level, he’s  #4, Roberts being wr5.  
 

maybe one spot up for grabs at that point

[Gambit]

Seeing everyone talking about who will make the most likely last spot for WR just makes me smile realizing we finally have a solid/strong core of starting WRs. Diggs, Brown and Beasley is such an amazing trio. Please stay healthy. Same with Allen and Singletary. 

[fansince88]

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUKE........AKEEEEEEEEEEEEEM. I dont know. What do you think sounds better?

 

[fansince88]

But seriously though. Duke will be battling with the Rookies and the bottom half of the roster. Going to be tough for the fan favorite.