Jags unlikely to allow Yannick Ngakoue to test FA

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The Jags can drastically lower their cap with a handful of releases (Dareus alone is 20 million in savings) and they got a good haul for Ramsey but not having any solutions at QB just kills them.

 

Their HC and GM are also on life support...

[thebandit27]

10 hours ago, whatdrought said:

Flip em a 5th for Calais Campbell.

Yep, that’s what several folks have been saying for months. He’s arguably the best fit in the NFL for what this team needs.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Could be a Bell situation. 
 

His agent could force a trade even after Tag. 
 

although at 24 Yrs old and that position Tag money is still nothing to sneeze at. And he’s still going to get a monster contract, the year after. 

[Beck Water]

13 hours ago, Codyny13 said:

Just scrolling down the page past those massive paragraphs full of numbers gives me anxiety. 

 

Hey.  It’s not MY money, or yours.

[Alphadawg7]

Shame on me.  Came to see any Yannick updates and wound up in a Dareus contract thread.  ?‍♂️

[PIZ]

Can someone explain the cap situation to me? I didn't see it anywhere in this thread.

[Reed83HOF]

 

[4merper4mer]

18 hours ago, PIZ said:

Can someone explain the cap situation to me? I didn't see it anywhere in this thread.

Some stuff counts double, some counts regular and some counts half.  

[Foxx]

i would not be opposed this.

 

2020 NFL Free Agency: Predicting landing spots for every PFF top-50 free agent

26. EDGE YANNICK NGAKOUE – BUFFALO BILLS

Projected contract: 4 years, $19.5 million per year ($57 million guaranteed)

Considering the Jaguars are currently over the cap, seeing Yannick Ngakoue on another squad in 2020 seems likely. Things could change with cuts, but for now, Buffalo, which owns the third-most cap space, would be the likeliest landing spot for Ngakoue. With Shaq Lawson set to hit free agency and Lorenzo Alexander retiring, Buffalo has nearly half of its total edge pressures to replace this offseason. Ngakoue has produced top-20 pass-rush grades in each of the past three seasons and could play the 6/7-tech role Lawson played.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Foxx

[Lurker]

https://www.si.com/nfl/jaguars/news/how-could-a-potential-tag-placed-on-yannick-ngakoue-impact-the-jaguars-financially

 

For a team like the Jaguars, who are currently projected to have negative cap space in 2020 until they make a few necessary cuts, this amount of money paid in a tag in one season would require some financial wiggle room and take up a large chunk of the Jaguars' cap.

 

We did an exercise earlier this week in which we examined how the Jaguars could free up nearly $40 million in cap space. Using Spotrac's roster management tool, we have done these cuts and then included Ngakoue's money from either the franchise or transition tag, giving an idea of how much cap the Jaguars would be able to work with if they tag Ngakoue.

 

Franchise tag

• Cut DT Marcell Dareus: Saves $20 million 
• Cut CB A.J. Bouye: Saves $11.437 million
• Cut WR Marqise Lee: Saves $5.25 million.
• Cut LB Jake Ryan: Saves $5.5 million.
• Cut TE Geoff Swaim: Saves $3.737 million.
• Franchise tag Ngakoue: Costs $19.316 million

These moves would leave the Jaguars with $20,914,754 in cap space to sign draft picks as well as other potential free agents. 

[Chandler#81]

Trying hard not to give this any thought or hope. Y’all are making the task harder. 2 more weeks til ‘legal tampering’!

[thebandit27]

44 minutes ago, Lurker said:

https://www.si.com/nfl/jaguars/news/how-could-a-potential-tag-placed-on-yannick-ngakoue-impact-the-jaguars-financially

 

For a team like the Jaguars, who are currently projected to have negative cap space in 2020 until they make a few necessary cuts, this amount of money paid in a tag in one season would require some financial wiggle room and take up a large chunk of the Jaguars' cap.

 

We did an exercise earlier this week in which we examined how the Jaguars could free up nearly $40 million in cap space. Using Spotrac's roster management tool, we have done these cuts and then included Ngakoue's money from either the franchise or transition tag, giving an idea of how much cap the Jaguars would be able to work with if they tag Ngakoue.

 

Franchise tag

• Cut DT Marcell Dareus: Saves $20 million 
• Cut CB A.J. Bouye: Saves $11.437 million
• Cut WR Marqise Lee: Saves $5.25 million.
• Cut LB Jake Ryan: Saves $5.5 million.
• Cut TE Geoff Swaim: Saves $3.737 million.
• Franchise tag Ngakoue: Costs $19.316 million

These moves would leave the Jaguars with $20,914,754 in cap space to sign draft picks as well as other potential free agents. 

I suspect that they’d move Campbell before they cut Bouye. They have zero corners without AJ, and they’d still have Taven Bryan to play Campbell’s spot.

[BringBackOrton]

57 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

I suspect that they’d move Campbell before they cut Bouye. They have zero corners without AJ, and they’d still have Taven Bryan to play Campbell’s spot.

That’s the player Buffalo needs to be in on. Package some of our picks to get him here. If he’s going to be a cap casualty, he shouldn’t be too pricey at his current contract.

[njbuff]

Dareus’ contract was a lot bigger than I thought.

 

What a freaking albatross.

[Lurker]

7 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

That’s the player Buffalo needs to be in on. Package some of our picks to get him here. If he’s going to be a cap casualty, he shouldn’t be too pricey at his current contract.

 

IDK.   He's getting long in the tooth and a $17.5M cap hit seems way too much for a guy that old...

 

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/jacksonville-jaguars/post/_/id/27662/jaguars-face-big-decisions-on-nick-foles-calais-campbell-and-others

 

Contract: Four years, $60 million, $30 million guaranteed, signed in 2017

 

2020 figures: $15 million salary, $17.5 million cap figure

 

What the Jaguars should do: Campbell will go down as the best free-agent signing in franchise history. He had 25 sacks in his first two seasons, which includes a franchise-record 14.5 in 2017, and 52 quarterback hits. He is a two-time Pro Bowl pick and first-team All-Pro (2017) but he has slowed this season (6.5 sacks) and isn’t as dominant as he was. That's not surprising, as he turned 33 in September. He has missed just six games in his 12-year career. If the Jaguars can convince him to renegotiate, it would be a good idea to bring him back in a reserve role, but if not, he’ll be cut to save money. (Like Dareus, it’s just $2.5 million in dead money.)

[YoloinOhio]

8 minutes ago, njbuff said:

Dareus’ contract was a lot bigger than I thought.

 

What a freaking albatross.

That’s what she said

[BringBackOrton]

52 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

IDK.   He's getting long in the tooth and a $17.5M cap hit seems way too much for a guy that old...

 

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/jacksonville-jaguars/post/_/id/27662/jaguars-face-big-decisions-on-nick-foles-calais-campbell-and-others

 

Contract: Four years, $60 million, $30 million guaranteed, signed in 2017

 

2020 figures: $15 million salary, $17.5 million cap figure

 

What the Jaguars should do: Campbell will go down as the best free-agent signing in franchise history. He had 25 sacks in his first two seasons, which includes a franchise-record 14.5 in 2017, and 52 quarterback hits. He is a two-time Pro Bowl pick and first-team All-Pro (2017) but he has slowed this season (6.5 sacks) and isn’t as dominant as he was. That's not surprising, as he turned 33 in September. He has missed just six games in his 12-year career. If the Jaguars can convince him to renegotiate, it would be a good idea to bring him back in a reserve role, but if not, he’ll be cut to save money. (Like Dareus, it’s just $2.5 million in dead money.)

Trading him will bring his hit to $15M. Usually these deals involve restructures to near market value anyway. Something like 2 years, $22M with 11 guaranteed to spread out the hit. And with the way this offseason is playing out for the Jags, he may be had for 2 fifths. 

 

Not saying he’s the only way to address DE this offseason, but he’d be a boost. He’d be tied for 2nd in sacks on the 2019 Bills with 6.5. These are the moves that turn competitive teams into contenders. I’m not even sure if our fifth rounders will even make the roster next year, depending on the moves we make in FA. 

[Lurker]

37 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

He’d be tied for 2nd in sacks on the 2019 Bills with 6.5. These are the moves that turn competitive teams into contenders. I’m not even sure if our fifth rounders will even make the roster next year, depending on the moves we make in FA. 

 

May as well keep Lawson who's younger, cheaper (even with a new deal) and also had 6.5 sacks...

[BringBackOrton]

3 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

May as well keep Lawson who's younger, cheaper (even with a new deal) and also had 6.5 sacks...

Not sure Shaq will be cheaper in the long term. And I believe him more limited as a player.

[H2o]

Yannick is trying to borrow the Brinks truck from Jalen for a minute

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28742566/2020-nfl-franchise-tag-candidates-predictions-21-teams-use-free-agency#JAX

 

Quote

Ngakoue wants a long-term deal and is seeking about $22 million annually. 

 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Mark Vader]

On 2/18/2020 at 7:48 PM, Reed83HOF said:

 

Oh boy

[H2o]

18 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

May as well keep Lawson who's younger, cheaper (even with a new deal) and also had 6.5 sacks...

This is my thought. Lawson had 6.5 sacks to Ngakoue's 8 sacks, but on 320 less defensive snaps. Lawson has turned into a solid, well-rounded DE for this team and I for one hope we keep him. 

[YoloinOhio]

7 minutes ago, H2o said:

This is my thought. Lawson had 6.5 sacks to Ngakoue's 8 sacks, but on 320 less defensive snaps. Lawson has turned into a solid, well-rounded DE for this team and I for one hope we keep him. 

Would it be possible to sign both? Money-wise? Release Murphy, keep Hughes. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by YoloinOhio

[Lurker]

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Would it be possible to sign both? Money-wise? Release Murphy, keep Hughes. 

 

Probably won't tie up that kind of cap room on the DL (Ngakoue, Lawson, Star, Hughes, Oliver)...

[John from Riverside]

I personally would like to see Shaq Lawson come back.....

[H2o]

2 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Would it be possible to sign both? Money-wise? Release Murphy, keep Hughes. 

Not with Ngakoue trying to get $22,000,000 per. I can't see us signing him alone, more or less he and Lawson. I think re-signing Lawson and us going edge in the draft is more likely. 

[YoloinOhio]

19 minutes ago, H2o said:

Not with Ngakoue trying to get $22,000,000 per. I can't see us signing him alone, more or less he and Lawson. I think re-signing Lawson and us going edge in the draft is more likely. 

Probably right 

[Malazan]

The guy's numbers have been declining. He's only broken double digit sacks once and wants 22 mill a year. I said before, he will be a 'regret' contract. He will get paid and won't live up to it. People on here roasted me for that opinion before, but how you get to paying him the highest DE salary for a guy whose numbers are closer to Lawson and Jordan Jenkins than they are to the top 10 guys in sacks makes little sense. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 2/23/2020 at 3:00 PM, BringBackOrton said:

That’s the player Buffalo needs to be in on. Package some of our picks to get him here. If he’s going to be a cap casualty, he shouldn’t be too pricey at his current contract.

 

Agree, would love to see Calais Campbell here. 

He's 33 and it would be a one-year rental (FA in 2021) unless a re-up is part of the trade deal.

Wonder what the Jags would want for him though?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 2/23/2020 at 12:39 PM, Foxx said:

i would not be opposed this.

 

2020 NFL Free Agency: Predicting landing spots for every PFF top-50 free agent

26. EDGE YANNICK NGAKOUE – BUFFALO BILLS

Projected contract: 4 years, $19.5 million per year ($57 million guaranteed)

Considering the Jaguars are currently over the cap, seeing Yannick Ngakoue on another squad in 2020 seems likely. Things could change with cuts, but for now, Buffalo, which owns the third-most cap space, would be the likeliest landing spot for Ngakoue. With Shaq Lawson set to hit free agency and Lorenzo Alexander retiring, Buffalo has nearly half of its total edge pressures to replace this offseason. Ngakoue has produced top-20 pass-rush grades in each of the past three seasons and could play the 6/7-tech role Lawson played.

 

Ngakoue has been pretty vocal he wants $22M/yr.  So 4 years/$88M

 

I could be wrong, but when Beane said "we're not likely to be players at the deep end of the FA pool as we were last year", I kind of feel he meant "don't expect me to go making a player the highest or 2nd highest at his position like I did with Morse"

 

 

[BringBackOrton]

19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Agree, would love to see Calais Campbell here. 

He's 33 and it would be a one-year rental (FA in 2021) unless a re-up is part of the trade deal.

Wonder what the Jags would want for him though?

I’m not sure much unless there are a lot of teams in on trading for him. Cutting him gives them nothing. They’d take something pretty reasonable I imagine.

 

The bigger issue is does Campbell hold out without a restructure. I’d say probably.

Edited February 24, 2020 by BringBackOrton

[Bubba Gump]

 

[MiltonWaddams]

26 minutes ago, Bubba Gump said:

 

I haven’t chimed in on this thread until now. This is the guy that I would pick out of all of the D lineman available on the market this year to take this defence to the next level. Dump Murphy and sign Yannick and re-sign Shaq. A top 4 DE of Jerry, Yannick, Shaq and Darryl Johnson would work for me in 2020. Of course, it isn’t my money So....

edit: Just saw his contract demands of reputedly 22 million per year. It may not be my money, but that’s way over paying for his production. If someone gives him that, they’re seeing something that nobody else in the league is seeing.

Edited February 27, 2020 by MiltonWaddams

[YoloinOhio]

Sounds like he will be tagged along with Judon. Word is that Clowney and Dante Fowler will be the guys not tagged. 

[Thurman#1]

 

 

On 2/16/2020 at 9:27 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

 

I will answer your questions:

 

1) that isn't quite the equation. The first red text should read "amortised signing bonus" rather than "unamortised". 

 

2) yes they do. 

 

3) I am not. The way you work out the cap savings of cutting someone is to work out the total cap hit first. So everything counts in that sum. Then imagine you have two pots one marked "dead money" and one marked "savings". You then break down the total you ended up with from your first sum by putting each constituent part of it in one of the two pots. 

 

In Dareus's case in the "savings" pot you would have:

$9.5m base salary

$10m roster bonus

$500k workout bonus

 

In the "dead money" pot you would have:

$2.5m amortised signing bonus. 

 

It isn't counting it twice in the same equation at all. You start by building the total cap hit up of its constituent parts. And then the second part of the process is breaking it down again: they are essentially two different sums. 

 

 

 

Gunner, I totally see that you are not applying it twice. In fact, if you're saying that to find the total cap impact you must now take what you're calling the "savings pot" and then subtract from it the "dead money pot," then you're saying what I'm saying.

 

That makes sense to me, with the proviso that total cap hit is only important if the guy is still on the team. When he's cut the two figures can't be added, as the "saved money" is now subtracted from the cap since it's not paid, whereas the "dead money pot," is still applied to the cap (though depending on the "Post June 1st Release" designation, a bunch of the money may be applied next year, though it's not relevant for Dareus). Adding them together as positive numbers at that point makes no sense at all.

 

The other folks talking about this here, on the other hand, have the "saved pot" as $22.5M, precisely because they include what you do and then also add in the unapplied portion of the amortized signing bonus there. And then also use the same money again, over in dead cap.

 

 

 

 

The way you're doing it, though, the saved money is essentially all of the unspent money, the pluses, the money you expected to spend but can now save. And the dead money is all of the minus money, the money you must apply to the salary cap now.

 

So if you want to calculate the total cap impact of cutting a guy (not just the impact on one year but the total impact on team cap), you take the savings pot and you subtract the dead money pot. And that leaves you with a total cap impact of $17.5M. I'm not just looking at this year's impact, as many of them appear to be doing. I'm looking at the total impact of cutting the guy. $17.5M.

 

Am I misrepresenting what you said?

 

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Thurman#1

[thebandit27]

14 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

 

Gunner, that's how I break it down too. It's not how Hap and the others do, but it's how I do. Unless I read you wrong, you agree with me and not them.

 

I spoke very poorly about what was amortized and unamortized. My fault. The signing bonus is originally amortized, but the part of the amortized bonus that has not yet been applied to the cap is what the other folks are using twice.

 

But you aren't. Looks to me like you're using my equation rather than theirs, unless I'm missing something. I believe I'm totally following and agreeing with everything you've said so far. You've got the savings pot (which doesn't account for the bonus) and you've got the dead money pot that does account for the bonus, as dead money. Same as me.

 

They on the other hand have the "saved pot" as $22.5M, precisely because they include what you do and then also add in the unapplied portion of the amortized signing bonus there. And then also use the same money again, over in dead cap.

 

The way you're doing it, though, the saved money is essentially all of the pluses, the money you expected to spend but can now save. And the dead money is all of the minus money, the money you must apply to the salary cap now.

 

So if you want to calculate the total cap impact of cutting a guy (not just the impact on one year but the total impact on team cap), you take the savings pot and you subtract the dead money pot. And that leaves you with a total cap impact of $17.5M. I'm not just looking at this year's impact, as many of them appear to be doing. I'm looking at the total impact of cutting the guy. $17.5M.

 

Am I misrepresenting what you said?

 

 

Whether he agrees with you or not, the cap reduction is $20M.

 

First line of the article:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28779947/jaguars-decline-2020-option-defensive-tackle-marcell-dareus%3fplatform=amp
 

[GunnerBill]

25 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

 

Gunner, that's how I break it down too. It's not how Hap and the others do, but it's how I do. Unless I read you wrong, you agree with me and not them.

 

I spoke very poorly about what was amortized and unamortized. My fault. The signing bonus is originally amortized, but the part of the amortized bonus that has not yet been applied to the cap is what the other folks are using twice.

 

But you aren't. Looks to me like you're using my equation rather than theirs, unless I'm missing something. I believe I'm totally following and agreeing with everything you've said so far. You've got the savings pot (which doesn't account for the bonus) and you've got the dead money pot that does account for the bonus, as dead money. Same as me.

 

They on the other hand have the "saved pot" as $22.5M, precisely because they include what you do and then also add in the unapplied portion of the amortized signing bonus there. And then also use the same money again, over in dead cap.

 

The way you're doing it, though, the saved money is essentially all of the pluses, the money you expected to spend but can now save. And the dead money is all of the minus money, the money you must apply to the salary cap now.

 

So if you want to calculate the total cap impact of cutting a guy (not just the impact on one year but the total impact on team cap), you take the savings pot and you subtract the dead money pot. And that leaves you with a total cap impact of $17.5M. I'm not just looking at this year's impact, as many of them appear to be doing. I'm looking at the total impact of cutting the guy. $17.5M.

 

Am I misrepresenting what you said?

 

It is your last para I don't agree with. Why are you taking the dead money away again? It has already been subtracted once from the total contract $22.5m - $2.5m dead money. It's a $20m saving.

[CommonCents]

On 2/27/2020 at 6:58 AM, YoloinOhio said:

Sounds like he will be tagged along with Judon. Word is that Clowney and Dante Fowler will be the guys not tagged. 

I liked Fowler coming out of school, I wonder what type of deal he is looking at. He would be worth a roll of the dice if he isn’t inking a top flight deal. 

[Thurman#1]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is your last para I don't agree with. Why are you taking the dead money away again? It has already been subtracted once from the total contract $22.5m - $2.5m dead money. It's a $20m saving.

 

 

Aargh. I edited to try to make it clearer. And you've already posted. Sorry.

 

I'll try again. The $22.5M, the "original cap hit," is a sum that only makes sense when the guy is on the team.

 

When he's on the team, all $22.5M is applied to the cap. From the perspective of the team, all $22.5M is positive, it's added to the cap, both what you are calling the "savings pot" and what will become the "dead money pot," though it's not dead money till he's cut. All positive.

 

That's no longer true when he's cut. When he's cut, the dead money is still positive. It's still applied to the cap. But the salary, roster bonus and workout bonus are NOT applied to the cap anymore. They're negatives, and must be subtracted from what the old cap was. They work against that amortized but unapplied portion of the bonus. Now, how can you take subtract $20M (salary, roster and workout bonuses) saved from the cap and add $2.5M applied to the cap and come up with $22.5M? Or rather a negative (saved) $22.5M?

 

Put another way, everyone here clearly agrees that the salary, roster bonus and workout bonus equal $20M and are NOT applied to the salary cap anymore since the cut. They are savings. So $20M has been saved without in any way accounting for the dead money. And yet people are saying that the total cap impact is $20M, the same $20M.  Before considering the dead money, the saved money is $20M and after considering the dead money, the saved money is the same? How is that possible? Is the dead money not any factor on how much is saved and spent when you cut a guy?

 

Still willling to apologize big-time if someone can explain this to me sensibly. But I just learned I have another big project that I have to work on through early Monday your time, so I won't be able to reply till then.