Rochesterfan Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 17 minutes ago, bbb said: Awesome. So you're the only one agreeing with McBride and it's because you are using his own example, which proves the opposite - the player caught the ball. It didn't hit the ground until after. I am not responding to McBride at all - read what I was responding to - the Bills/Jets kickoff from 2 years ago that was being used as a reference. I do tend to agree that I believe I have seen guys flip back kickoffs without kneeling, but I do not know what agreement or signals were in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: The rule still requires a knee once the player catches the ball. Correct. Just like the rule still requires the QB’s knee to hit the ground on a kneel down or the ball to hit the ground on a spike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 During owners meetings it will be decided that because of the whining of some fans, that if the Bills do this ever going forward it will be a TD against them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, row_33 said: During owners meetings it will be decided that because of the whining of some fans, that if the Bills do this ever going forward it will be a TD against them This is a legitimate discussion of the rules of the game and thus far your only contributions are insults and being wrong. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 What I know for CERTAIN is......................... I picked a very bad time to step out of the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, row_33 said: no it doesn’t any action of dismissing a run back is enough, by word or hand wave or telling the official you will not be coming out of the EZ if it gets there give it up already.... Where are you getting this from? I don't think that's the rule. The rule is, as I wrote in my post, that the ball is live until it's declared dead. It's dead when the the ball carrier gives himself up, and the rule is very clear about how he can do that. I don't think there's a rule that says what you claim. If you're correct, the official in the end zone didn't know the rule, because he clearly thought the ball was still in play in the kick returner's hands. When the NFL changed the rule about an untouched ball in the end zone being a dead ball and not recoverable by the kicking team, I don't think they changed anything about how a receiver in the end zone indicates that he wants to take the touchback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 hour ago, BillsFan692 said: Tre white went down to the ground first though. Thus giving himself up. Nobody touched him. Quite a bit different since this player didnt go down to the ground and if he did we wouldnt even be talking about it. Tre could have gotten up and returned the INT. He got right up and instead of returning it, he ran the opposite direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 17 hours ago, Aireskoi said: This play comes to mind...guess the ball is dead now a days? I know it's not a kickoff return, but what's the diff... good one. Reminded me more of this one. Why didn't "common sense" prevail here. Obviously TD Mike wasn't going with it back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 If waving his arm was a signal of giving up ten put it in the rule book. Ref was standing right there, like has done one hundred times during the season, and does not whistle the play dead. I would like his explanation on that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringMetheHeadofLeonLett Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 We were up by 16 points and blew it. This thread is the only reason I remember that play. It was the right call, according to my hangover. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandhill Mike Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I can't say I've ever seen a fair catch on a kickoff (though I see it is allowed) and even so, I didn't notice their guy signal anything... he just fielded the ball and tossed it towards the ref. I was shouting live ball... he never took a knee or stepped out of bounds. He was a live runner from what I remember of the rules. I think the rules committee will address two plays from this game in the offseason. They will define this giving oneself up to include what we saw yesterday and I think they should address the Cody Ford "blindside" block... Those guys could see each other. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 42 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: I am not responding to McBride at all - read what I was responding to - the Bills/Jets kickoff from 2 years ago that was being used as a reference. I do tend to agree that I believe I have seen guys flip back kickoffs without kneeling, but I do not know what agreement or signals were in place. This seems like you are talking about the rule as of now: If the ball on a kickoff touches the ground in the end zone without being touched - it is now a touchback regardless of where it hit the ground first. It can hit at the 10 and bounce into the end zone and it is a touchback - like a punt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
familykwi Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 As an official (local high school, not NFL), I've been bothered about what was actually ruled on the end zone play. I've been going through the 2019 NFL rulebook to sort out what should have been ruled. If a fair catch signal was given, the kick would have ended in a touchback, but no signal shows on film and the referee action makes it clear none was given. Now the rule book: Rule 6, Section 1, Article 5a: It is a touchback, if a free kick: touches the ground in the end zone before being touched by the receiving team. * This did not occur as the ball was caught in flight. It is a touchback, if a free kick: is downed in the end zone by the receiving team. * This required further research to determine what constitutes downing the ball. Unfortunately, the word "downed" is not defined in the rule book. I then went to a player giving himself up. Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1d: An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended: when a runner declares himself down by: falling to the ground, or kneeling, and clearly making no immediate effort to advance. sliding. When a runner slides, the ball is dead the instant he touches the ground with anything other than his hands or his feet. Neither of these things happen either. The burden of knowing this rule is on the player and this is where the problem occurs. At this point, the referee is correct in letting the play continue. Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1 An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended: when a forward pass (legal or illegal) is incomplete. THIS is what the kick returner did and this is what should have been ruled as the action of the play. As such, no touchdown should have been awarded. What should have been the outcome of the incomplete pass you ask? Since the forward pass was not thrown to an eligible receiver Rule 11, Section 5, Article 1(exception 2b) If a player of the team which intercepts, catches, or recovers the ball commits a live-ball foul in the end zone, it is a safety. A SAFETY WOULD HAVE BEEN THE CORRECT RULING. My observation is that no one on the crew considered the toss forward a forward pass. That wasn't the player's intention obviously, but there are a lot of actions the players don't intend to do, but rulings must be made. The referee was initially ruling this correctly by not awarding the fair catch, but confused the issue by ruling a touchdown. For those wondering who the black shirts were, it was noted during the broadcast that they were the backup officials. If an official goes down and needs to leave the field, they come in. I cannot say for sure they've never been consulted to assist with an on field ruling before, but I've never seen it as an official, or as a fan. Ruling that the player gave himself up may have been "common sense," but is not supported by the rule book. FTR, I submit this for clarity, not as a belief that the Bills were conspired against. it was a weird play and I hadn't considered the forward pass element myself until seeing someone mention it on twitter after the game. I beg responders to consider this informational, nothing more. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Do the rules say you have to kneel it down to close of the play as it were or not? If so we had a TD taken from us that should have counted, jungle rule don’t count. Can’t be making stuff up, rules are the rules. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 49 minutes ago, row_33 said: no it doesn’t any action of dismissing a run back is enough, by word or hand wave or telling the official you will not be coming out of the EZ if it gets there he clearly forfeited a return by his actions give it up already.... The rule is quoted directly from the rule book earlier in this thread and you are simply incorrect. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Yeah - key is "falling to the ground, or kneeling, and clearly making no immediate effort to advance" - which clearly didn't happen. Nothing that can be done now - but yeah it sucks. Se discussion at 4:30 mark of video linked in this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 It was a fumble by rule. Returner was walking forward with the ball, ref told him to stay. I'm not mad at the reversal though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmoorman4jesus Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I can live with that play. But it stinks that it was called a TD on the field. Also if you look the ref is holding his hand down and shaking his head as if to say “no” as he’s flipping the ball. Not blaming the refs for this loss though. 100% on the Bills and and now the fans will sit with it for much longer then the players sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I, for one, think it is AWSOME that we are complaining about refs and calls today. This beats the heck out of being in our third month of talking about the next draft! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: It was a fumble by rule. Returner was walking forward with the ball, ref told him to stay. I'm not mad at the reversal though. The ref didn't tell him to stay, the ref signaled "Don't give me that MF'ing ball, MF'er - it's still live!" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, stevewin said: The ref didn't tell him to stay, the ref signaled "Don't give me that MF'ing ball, MF'er - it's still live!" To me he put his hand out like stay, then he didn't and said that's a live ball then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: It was a fumble by rule. Returner was walking forward with the ball, ref told him to stay. I'm not mad at the reversal though. According to the Ref, it was going to be an illegal forward pass. It would have been a safety, not a Touchdown. https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2020/1/5/21050351/should-the-bills-have-been-awarded-a-touchdown-on-second-half-kickoff-houston-texans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: According to the Ref, it was going to be an illegal forward pass. It would have been a safety, not a Touchdown. https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2020/1/5/21050351/should-the-bills-have-been-awarded-a-touchdown-on-second-half-kickoff-houston-texans That's after the TD. They were going to change it a safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Boy Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 What is what is effing infuriating is the rush to judgement, including the “ official” on the broadcast. Hoodie has made a freaking career out of exploiting the rules. Add this to the BS block call and I want to beat the living #### out of someone on the NFL rules comittee office. ??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 11 minutes ago, Augie said: I, for one, think it is AWSOME that we are complaining about refs and calls today. This beats the heck out of being in our third month of talking about the next draft! Now that you mention it, that call actually got us a higher draft pick! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Boy Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 One more thing to blame JA for, I guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaadThingsMan Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Dude messed up, didnt follow the rules and the refs fixed it for him. Last minute the sidelined ref comes in and says NY said it's the "tuck rule" all over again 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 17 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: According to the Ref, it was going to be an illegal forward pass. It would have been a safety, not a Touchdown. https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2020/1/5/21050351/should-the-bills-have-been-awarded-a-touchdown-on-second-half-kickoff-houston-texans The ref signaled TD, and it would have been changed to a safety on review. You know, if they had followed the normal NFL procedure of reviewing all scoring plays. Which of course they didn't. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, GoBills808 said: The ref signaled TD, and it would have been changed to a safety on review. You know, if they had followed the normal NFL procedure of reviewing all scoring plays. Which of course they didn't. I think they did review it (in a sense), if those guys that ran on the field were from the league, which it looked like to me. My guess is that the Ref was about to call that a foul and the league stepped in so that another playoff game wasn't decided by controversy. The whole reason we have review-able PI now is because of the fallout from last year's Saints/Vikings. They opted to go in favor of the spirit of the rule, rather than the letter, and that's the way it should be. Otherwise, the game becomes unwatchable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandhill Mike Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 If they aren't feeling sorry for the Texans (at the time, the Houston offense had no pulse and that score would have made it 20-0), who knows how they rule it. I honestly thought they didn't want that call to determine the game so they just "fixed" it. A TD there at that time would have been a backbreaker for the Texans. Well now both the Titans (Oilers) and Houston have gotten some measure of revenge for the 92 comeback game. Enjoy your ten penalties next week in KC, Texans. I hope they're all ticky-tack drive killers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: I think they did review it (in a sense), if those guys that ran on the field were from the league, which it looked like to me. My guess is that the Ref was about to call that a foul and the league stepped in so that another playoff game wasn't decided by controversy. The whole reason we have review-able PI now is because of the fallout from last year's Saints/Vikings.They opted to go in favor of the spirit of the rule, rather than the letter, and that's the way it should be. Otherwise, the game becomes unwatchable. Video review is the rule, on all scoring plays. I completely disagree w/the bolded, mostly because the entire reason to have a rulebook in sports is so you don't have to have refs adjudicating players' intent, but whatevs. If spirit of the rule is the standard then dropping the ball before you cross the goalline would still be a TD, no need to actually kneel on kneeldowns or spike the ball to stop the clock, lol if that sounds watchable to you we must be watching two very different games. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Video review is the rule, on all scoring plays. I completely disagree w/the bolded, mostly because the entire reason to have a rulebook in sports is so you don't have to have refs adjudicating players' intent, but whatevs. If spirit of the rule is the standard then dropping the ball before you cross the goalline would still be a TD, no need to actually kneel on kneeldowns or spike the ball to stop the clock, lol if that sounds watchable to you we must be watching two very different games. That's absolutely the case. Have you ever head the phrases, "you could call holding on every play." or "the refs are letting them play/battle" That's exactly what that is. I'm sure there will be a change to the rulebook that clearly indicates "if a runner gives himself up" to solve it for next time, but I'll gladly take that and the loss over some tuckrule nonsense that gets us a win that the team didn't earn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan_34 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 19 hours ago, peterpan said: I've never seen that signal before. Since when does double fists, arms spread, signal a fair catch/give up??? I'm wondering when that became a legal signal and/or why the call was overturned?!?!? How about we go back to the old way where the returner has to catch it and down it? The kick off is a joke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
familykwi Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: That's absolutely the case. Have you ever head the phrases, "you could call holding on every play." or "the refs are letting them play/battle" That's exactly what that is. I'm sure there will be a change to the rulebook that clearly indicates "if a runner gives himself up" to solve it for next time, but I'll gladly take that and the loss over some tuckrule nonsense that gets us a win that the team didn't earn. As the Patriots so often note, knowing the rule book is part of a player's (and coach's) responsibility. If we benefitted because the opponent doesn't know the rules, that's earned. Roberts let is land in the end zone without touching it because he knows the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: That's absolutely the case. Have you ever head the phrases, "you could call holding on every play." or "the refs are letting them play/battle" That's exactly what that is. I'm sure there will be a change to the rulebook that clearly indicates "if a runner gives himself up" to solve it for next time, but I'll gladly take that and the loss over some tuckrule nonsense that gets us a win that the team didn't earn. So you want holding called on every play? Or never called? It's unclear...refs are tasked with making calls that they see which fall within the definitions of the rules of the game. And the tuckrule analogy is a bad one just FYI. The way the rule was written was clear Brady fumble, it was incorrectly interpreted and applied by Coleman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 hour ago, bbb said: This seems like you are talking about the rule as of now: If the ball on a kickoff touches the ground in the end zone without being touched - it is now a touchback regardless of where it hit the ground first. It can hit at the 10 and bounce into the end zone and it is a touchback - like a punt. Correct - the argument was why when it happened to the Bills in the Bills/Jets game it was a Jets TD. Since that game they changed the rule to mirror closer to punts to lessen injury. Kickoffs now that break the plain of the goal line and touch the ground are considered down once they touch the ground. That is new compared to the game in the Bills/Jets where the kickoff was considered a live ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, Richmond_Bills said: The Ref did signal TD. I'm talking about over the regular season. 99/100 times the refs caught the ball and didn't signal a TD for the kickoff team. So sure there's no instance of a TD being reversed. But there's plenty of instances of what the KR did. 18 hours ago, Rocbillsfan1 said: Dude you must be on what Richie incognito is on. Edited January 5, 2020 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Sandhill Mike said: I can't say I've ever seen a fair catch on a kickoff (though I see it is allowed) and even so, I didn't notice their guy signal anything... he just fielded the ball and tossed it towards the ref. I was shouting live ball... he never took a knee or stepped out of bounds. He was a live runner from what I remember of the rules. I think the rules committee will address two plays from this game in the offseason. They will define this giving oneself up to include what we saw yesterday and I think they should address the Cody Ford "blindside" block... Those guys could see each other. I think the issue is that like many rules - they define it during the off season with the videos and training provided to the teams and Referees. They many times allow things that fall outside the exact definition of the rules. We saw it with the catch rule and PI - sometimes they expand or contract definitions not by changing rules, but by changing emphasis. The kickoffs have been that way on and off this year, but what happened in the playoff game was a further extreme. As to Cody Fords block - that was a big point of emphasis this season. Offensive players are not supposed to block anyone if they are facing away from the goal they are heading toward. It is supposed to protect from blindside hits, but even in this case with the guy looking at him - it is still illegal. I don’t agree with the rule, but it has been called that same way many times this season. I think both rules are having the effect the NFL wants - they just suck for the timing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said: But there's plenty of instances of what the KR did. Would love to see even one 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geo in Pa Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 My god, it was a TD, I don't care what the intent was, the ref at the back of the end zone calling it right. The ref at the goal line never signals a touchback, he just pointed at the ground, that's not a proper signal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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