Bills' mishandling of the CB position

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

I love Beane and McDermott and the job they've done overall. I support them going forward. But I still feel the need to draw attention to a critical mistake they've made. McDermott seemed borderline embarrassed about it in his press conference last night, so hopefully it won't happen again, but the fact that it was a mistake of this magnitude does cause some concern.

 

As I recall, the Bills were the only team in the NFL to carry only four CBs on their opening-day roster. I think everyone assumed this was just a temporary thing and they'd bring a veteran back after week 1, but it never happened. This meant the Bills were very thin at this position throughout the season and were very lucky to avoid significant injuries, until yesterday when they had to play two starters (Wallace and T. Johnson) deep into a meaningless game due to "a lack of bodies" as McDermott phrased it after the game.

 

With Wallace in a walking boot, it probably means we are walking into the playoffs -- against a potent passing attack which we can only hope does not include Will Fuller -- with two boundary corners, a banged-up slot corner, and only safeties to back them up. The Texans will be looking at this as the Bills' weakness to attack. Stills could have a big game.

 

McDermott said after the game that you hate to be in the position to have to play those guys like they did yesterday. Newsflash, McDermott/Beane: you didn't have to. You should have had a backup plan so you didn't have to risk the thinnest position on your roster going into the playoffs. Now you have put the team in a very difficult situation, and it was entirely avoidable. Start the season with another CB, or bring someone in just to play week 17. Either way, this never should have happened.

[CaptnCoke11]

1 minute ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

I love Beane and McDermott and the job they've done overall. I support them going forward. But I still feel the need to draw attention to a critical mistake they've made. McDermott seemed borderline embarrassed about it in his press conference last night, so hopefully it won't happen again, but the fact that it was a mistake of this magnitude does cause some concern.

 

As I recall, the Bills were the only team in the NFL to carry only four CBs on their opening-day roster. I think everyone assumed this was just a temporary thing and they'd bring a veteran back after week 1, but it never happened. This meant the Bills were very thin at this position throughout the season and were very lucky to avoid significant injuries, until yesterday when they had to play two starters (Wallace and T. Johnson) deep into a meaningless game due to "a lack of bodies" as McDermott phrased it after the game.

 

With Wallace in a walking boot, it probably means we are walking into the playoffs -- against a potent passing attack which we can only hope does not include Will Fuller -- with two boundary corners, a banged-up slot corner, and only safeties to back them up. The Texans will be looking at this as the Bills' weakness to attack. Stills could have a big game.

 

McDermott said after the game that you hate to be in the position to have to play those guys like they did yesterday. Newsflash, McDermott/Beane: you didn't have to. You should have had a backup plan so you didn't have to risk the thinnest position on your roster going into the playoffs. Now you have put the team in a very difficult situation, and it was entirely avoidable. Start the season with another CB, or bring someone in just to play week 17. Either way, this never should have happened.

Who should of played corner then yesterday?

[Clemfield2622]

I think the reason they felt comfortable going with 4 is that some of the safeties had versatility to play corner in a pinch.  

 

It's not easy to bring in a guy for one game, as you would have to make a roster spot. 

[Dablitzkrieg]

2 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

I love Beane and McDermott and the job they've done overall. I support them going forward. But I still feel the need to draw attention to a critical mistake they've made. McDermott seemed borderline embarrassed about it in his press conference last night, so hopefully it won't happen again, but the fact that it was a mistake of this magnitude does cause some concern.

 

As I recall, the Bills were the only team in the NFL to carry only four CBs on their opening-day roster. I think everyone assumed this was just a temporary thing and they'd bring a veteran back after week 1, but it never happened. This meant the Bills were very thin at this position throughout the season and were very lucky to avoid significant injuries, until yesterday when they had to play two starters (Wallace and T. Johnson) deep into a meaningless game due to "a lack of bodies" as McDermott phrased it after the game.

 

With Wallace in a walking boot, it probably means we are walking into the playoffs -- against a potent passing attack which we can only hope does not include Will Fuller -- with two boundary corners, a banged-up slot corner, and only safeties to back them up. The Texans will be looking at this as the Bills' weakness to attack. Stills could have a big game.

 

McDermott said after the game that you hate to be in the position to have to play those guys like they did yesterday. Newsflash, McDermott/Beane: you didn't have to. You should have had a backup plan so you didn't have to risk the thinnest position on your roster going into the playoffs. Now you have put the team in a very difficult situation, and it was entirely avoidable. Start the season with another CB, or bring someone in just to play week 17. Either way, this never should have happened.

I've got to tell you, this is a hot take if I've ever seen one.  You are seriously questioning the least injury-riddled team in the league because of one freak accident of a game?  Injuries happen.  There was no misuse imo.  I trust his and Beane's judgement when it comes to the defensive side of the ball. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

Who should of played corner then yesterday?

Mckenzie obviously.

[Warren Zevon]

As long as they have White, Hyde, and Poyer I'm happy with the secondary.

 

Most everyone else in this zone defense has been shown to be interchangeable. 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

2 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

Who should of played corner then yesterday?

The point is there should have been someone else on the roster to play corner. Most teams have backups at that position. The Bills kept six safeties instead -- four backups for two starting safeties, and only one backup for three starting corners.

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Mckenzie obviously.

Yeah. It's hard to believe that people saw McKenzie out there yesterday and still feel we're in a just fine position depth-wise. I mean, there's all the evidence you need.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

EJ Gaines is a free agent. I wonder if they look at him? He's good for at least 30 snaps before he gets hurt. Can we sign him though? I know he was released on injury settlement. Not sure how that works.

[thebandit27]

Siran Neal is a corner in Buffalo's defense, hence why they carry 5 other safeties.

 

They can't field a 75-man roster in week 17. Some guys are going to have to play.

 

In fact, if you could pick a position for the Bills to lose a starter, Wallace has to be the first choice by a mile. Kevin Johnson has been solid and has been getting 40% of the boundary corner snaps since week 10.

Edited December 30, 2019 by thebandit27

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

3 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

I've got to tell you, this is a hot take if I've ever seen one.  You are seriously questioning the least injury-riddled team in the league because of one freak accident of a game?  Injuries happen.  There was no misuse imo.  I trust his and Beane's judgement when it comes to the defensive side of the ball. 

No, it's not about the freak accident. He shouldn't have been playing in the first place; the rest of the starters were gone by then.

 

If someone gets hurt on Saturday, are you comfortable with Siran Neal or Isaiah McKenzie covering Kenny Stills?

[Solomon Grundy]

Honestly, I prefer Kevin Johnson opposite Tredavious. Kevin seems to be more physical.

[Dablitzkrieg]

Just now, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

No, it's not about the freak accident. He shouldn't have been playing in the first place; the rest of the starters were gone by then.

 

If someone gets hurt on Saturday, are you comfortable with Siran Neal or Isaiah McKenzie covering Kenny Stills?

I'm sure they will have a back-up plan and would be fine.  You do realize that White didn't play correct?  That is a factor you are forgetting

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

Just now, Dablitzkrieg said:

I'm sure they will have a back-up plan and would be fine.  You do realize that White didn't play correct?  That is a factor you are forgetting

Right. But if Wallace can't go, we're going to trot out White, Johnson, and Johnson as the starters with no backups other than safeties. Any way you slice it, that is paper thin and an area of concern. If one of White or K. Johnson goes down, who goes to the boundary? If T. Johnson goes down, do we think Neal can keep up with the Texans' playmakers in the slot? It's a huge mismatch and could make a difference in the game, even if a guy only misses a series or two.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Siran Neal is a corner in Buffalo's defense, hence why they carry 5 other safeties.

 

They can't field a 75-man roster in week 17. Some guys are going to have to play.

 

In fact, if you could pick a position for the Bills to lose a starter, Wallace has to be the first choice by a mile. Kevin Johnson has been solid and has been getting 40% of the boundary corner snaps since week 10.

 

I was about to post this. And as so often when I am late to a thread you have already taken care of it @thebandit27. They will likely have to go sign someone off the street now and as someone else mentioned EJ Gaines is out there. He would make sense. As would Cam Lewis up from the practice squad if they are short at nickel. I was hopeful Taron's injury was not that serious though?

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

You’re right, incompetence of the highest level.  Fire him and bring in Freddie, he’s got time on his hands.  ?

I’ve worked for micromanagers like you.

[Big Turk]

They are big on position flexibility.  Some of the safeties can be used as corners in various situations.

[SCBills]

Didn’t Taron Johnson return to the game?   I was pretty sure he is fine. 
 

Losing Levi hurts our depth, but Tre/Taron/Kevin is still a very good group of corners.  
 

I agree with others that I’d have a plane waiting to bring in EJ Gaines, as he knows our system/coaches and we just need him healthy for a playoff run. 
 

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by SCBills

[Buffalo_Stampede]

11 minutes ago, the skycap said:

Honestly, I prefer Kevin Johnson opposite Tredavious. Kevin seems to be more physical.

I think he's solid but a huge injury risk. 

[CardinalScotts]

14 minutes ago, the skycap said:

Honestly, I prefer Kevin Johnson opposite Tredavious. Kevin seems to be more physical.

me too

 

[peterpan]

I was more worried about losing Nseke only to then see Ford come back in late.  Then he got hurt.  Ugh.  Luckily it looked like he was fine.  

[Doc]

If Wallace is out, sign Gaines.

[Cripple Creek]

27 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

I love Beane and McDermott and the job they've done overall. I support them going forward. But I still feel the need to draw attention to a critical mistake they've made. McDermott seemed borderline embarrassed about it in his press conference last night, so hopefully it won't happen again, but the fact that it was a mistake of this magnitude does cause some concern.

 

As I recall, the Bills were the only team in the NFL to carry only four CBs on their opening-day roster. I think everyone assumed this was just a temporary thing and they'd bring a veteran back after week 1, but it never happened. This meant the Bills were very thin at this position throughout the season and were very lucky to avoid significant injuries, until yesterday when they had to play two starters (Wallace and T. Johnson) deep into a meaningless game due to "a lack of bodies" as McDermott phrased it after the game.

 

With Wallace in a walking boot, it probably means we are walking into the playoffs -- against a potent passing attack which we can only hope does not include Will Fuller -- with two boundary corners, a banged-up slot corner, and only safeties to back them up. The Texans will be looking at this as the Bills' weakness to attack. Stills could have a big game.

 

McDermott said after the game that you hate to be in the position to have to play those guys like they did yesterday. Newsflash, McDermott/Beane: you didn't have to. You should have had a backup plan so you didn't have to risk the thinnest position on your roster going into the playoffs. Now you have put the team in a very difficult situation, and it was entirely avoidable. Start the season with another CB, or bring someone in just to play week 17. Either way, this never should have happened.

Giuseppe, I love you like a brother. My mother, she took you in off of the street and raised you like her own son.  This is the way you repay her?

[ganesh]

28 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

 

It is a little silly argument because you only have a 53-man roster and they dress up 44...So we already had in-actives in Beasley, Brown, Tre, Singletary etc....There was no escaping of not playing some of the starters

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

2 minutes ago, ganesh said:

It is a little silly argument because you only have a 53-man roster and they dress up 44...So we already had in-actives in Beasley, Brown, Tre, Singletary etc....There was no escaping of not playing some of the starters

The complaint is not what they had to do yesterday given their roster situation. The complaint is that their roster shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.

[clayboy54]

Funny how a few weeks ago some people were calling for Levi Wallace's head. Now, its "oh my God, he's hurt!"

 

Giuseppe says the position was mishandled. In fact as Bandit and Gunner have said, you can't have 75 guys on the roster. Somebody had to be exposed Sunday.

 

Managing an NFL roster is clearly not as easy as we all make it seem. Especially with the bipolar fanbase.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

@Whitey13 I know; the Bills carrying six safeties and only four corners really confused me too. ☺

[tumaro02]

Wow! The Patriots based on your argument have been extremely negligent! The have only "3" CBs listed. Please... you are getting hung up on how a team lists their defensive backs. The Patriots list 10 defensive backs (3 CB, 7 DB). The Bills list 10 defensive backs (4 CB, 6 S). We all know that Siran Neal is the backup slot CB and they have Cam Lewis on the PS. Don't get hung up on labels.

[YoloinOhio]

The Reason they can do that is because they have position flexibility in their secondary 

[TPS]

24 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I was about to post this. And as so often when I am late to a thread you have already taken care of it @thebandit27. They will likely have to go sign someone off the street now and as someone else mentioned EJ Gaines is out there. He would make sense. As would Cam Lewis up from the practice squad if they are short at nickel. I was hopeful Taron's injury was not that serious though?

I would think Cam gets the call since he's been practicing with the team all season...?

[MR8]

I love people melting down about a non-contact freak injury like the coaches should've seen it coming.

 

The problem with these "Meaningless games" in week 17 is they're preseason games without PRESEASON ROSTERS... there is a reason the NFL Changed cut downs from 90 to 53 until after the final preseason game.  They didn't want to risk injuries to anyone of consequence.  That's not the case when you have a 53 with only 44 active on game day.

 

They had to play guys who mattered this week, there was no way around it, and if you are seriously complaining that the Bills don't have enough starting caliber DBs, you need to get a freaking clue.  We have one of the best secondaries in the NFL!  No one has multiple starting grade CBs sitting the bench behind their starters "just in case".  It just doesn't happen because there are 32 teams with 2 to 3 starting CBs EACH... that's 64 to 96 starting CBs, many of whom really aren't starting caliber but start anyways, and you want us to stock pile extras?  Sounds great, but entirely unrealistic.

 

We have some fantastic Depth at CB, and while IMHO the #2 need behind pass rush this defense needs in 2020 is a #2 CB, they have not mismanaged ANYTHING.  They have handled their business adding players in the draft in FA and they've built the #2 pass Defense int he NFL.  You simply cannot add every piece you may need all at once... they've taken a slow methodical approach to roster building so as to not damage their cap situation and to bring in THE RIGHT guys for their scheme and team.

 

Wallace was a diamond in the rough who blossomed... we still need a #2 Corner who can be counted on on the outside more than the play we've gotten opposite Tre, but they gave Johnson & Johnson the chance to see if either could be that guy this year.  Like I said, you can't do everything all at once.  They'll add another CB in the draft in 2020, probably in rounds 1, 2, or 3... but they did a fantastic job building this team and while there are holes, ever team has holes.  They did nothing wrong with how they prepared for this season or this game for that matter with regards to the secondary.  

[BigBuff423]

Sometimes, this fan base is too much for me to stomach. It's arguable their strongest position group and they need bodies in other places, like the Offensive Line to ensure quality players to protect their developing Franchise QB. 

 

IMHO if the Bills didn't invest so heavily in the Offensive Line like they did last FA season, I don't think we see the Josh Allen we've seen this year. Josh took a month to get himself together and used that NE game to propel him into a good QB. He has room to grow to get to great, but there have been countless stats to demonstrate his year 2 progression and *that* doesn't happen without a solid Offensive Line in front of him. The injuries along the line at one time or another, have show just how important depth is in that position group. 

 

Questioning the reasoning for how that group is managed seems to asinine to me given their success. 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

For me, the folks reacting like this is crazy talk must believe that McDermott can do no wrong, or they just don't want to hear any points of concern about the team. The fact is that the Bills are thin at corner and are about to face a dynamic passing attack. The Bills chose to keep J. Johnson, Marlowe, and Coleman, who have barely seen the field, over another reliable backup corner. I think that was the wrong decision.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, TPS said:

I would think Cam gets the call since he's been practicing with the team all season...?

 

Not sure if he played much outside corner in pre-season would be my only thing. He definitely played some nickel but did he play some outside corner too? Can't remember. Levi is the one I think is done for the year.... so the priority is a guy who plays outside.

[wppete]

[TwistofFate]

This is exactly why I can see them drafting CB in round 1 of the draft....or Edge rusher, or LB. 

 

Im sure they will be looking at value considering we will be picking so far down, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see defense get the nod in round 1.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

3 minutes ago, MR8 said:

I love people melting down about a non-contact freak injury like the coaches should've seen it coming.

 

The problem with these "Meaningless games" in week 17 is they're preseason games without PRESEASON ROSTERS... there is a reason the NFL Changed cut downs from 90 to 53 until after the final preseason game.  They didn't want to risk injuries to anyone of consequence.  That's not the case when you have a 53 with only 44 active on game day.

 

They had to play guys who mattered this week, there was no way around it, and if you are seriously complaining that the Bills don't have enough starting caliber DBs, you need to get a freaking clue.  We have one of the best secondaries in the NFL!  No one has multiple starting grade CBs sitting the bench behind their starters "just in case".  It just doesn't happen because there are 32 teams with 2 to 3 starting CBs EACH... that's 64 to 96 starting CBs, many of whom really aren't starting caliber but start anyways, and you want us to stock pile extras?  Sounds great, but entirely unrealistic.

 

We have some fantastic Depth at CB, and while IMHO the #2 need behind pass rush this defense needs in 2020 is a #2 CB, they have not mismanaged ANYTHING.  They have handled their business adding players in the draft in FA and they've built the #2 pass Defense int he NFL.  You simply cannot add every piece you may need all at once... they've taken a slow methodical approach to roster building so as to not damage their cap situation and to bring in THE RIGHT guys for their scheme and team.

 

Wallace was a diamond in the rough who blossomed... we still need a #2 Corner who can be counted on on the outside more than the play we've gotten opposite Tre, but they gave Johnson & Johnson the chance to see if either could be that guy this year.  Like I said, you can't do everything all at once.  They'll add another CB in the draft in 2020, probably in rounds 1, 2, or 3... but they did a fantastic job building this team and while there are holes, ever team has holes.  They did nothing wrong with how they prepared for this season or this game for that matter with regards to the secondary.  

You're missing the point. It's not that they need starting-caliber backups; it's that they need backups period. They don't have them. They have safeties instead. It's not about a freak injury; it's about the lack of numbers at the position.

[TPS]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Not sure if he played much outside corner in pre-season would be my only thing. He definitely played some nickel but did he play some outside corner too? Can't remember. Levi is the one I think is done for the year.... so the priority is a guy who plays outside.

I seem to remember he played both, but can't say for sure.

[thebandit27]

30 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I was about to post this. And as so often when I am late to a thread you have already taken care of it @thebandit27. They will likely have to go sign someone off the street now and as someone else mentioned EJ Gaines is out there. He would make sense. As would Cam Lewis up from the practice squad if they are short at nickel. I was hopeful Taron's injury was not that serious though?

 

Taron is the one I'm more interested in at the moment. If he's not able to go, you're down to Neal (assuming he's healthy; he got hurt too), Marlowe, or kicking KJ inside and bringing up Lewis.

 

9 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

@Whitey13 I know; the Bills carrying six safeties and only four corners really confused me too. ☺

 

5 and 5. Neal is a slot corner in this defense.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, thebandit27 said:

 

Taron is the one I'm more interested in at the moment. If he's not able to go, you're down to Neal (assuming he's healthy; he got hurt too), Marlowe, or kicking KJ inside and bringing up Lewis.

 

 

5 and 5. Neal is a slot corner in this defense.

 

I thought Taron went back in for a play even though he looked hobbled? I thought Wallace was the one who looked done for the year. If they are both done you need to bring two guys in.

[dollars 2 donuts]

Can we feel bad for Levi for just a bit?

 

first playoff game and just one game away.

 

...that stinks.