Bengals accuse Pats employee of videotaping their play calls

[Cripple Creek]

3 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

Including a Poll is an intentional attempt to avoid a “merge”. It’s akin to saying “I’m filming for a documentary for a movie “Do Your Job”. Clearly a mirror thread after @YoloinOhio has a perfectly good thread which includes all this same information. 

You, sir, are wise and perspicacious. 

[peterpan]

The Bengals need to release the tape IMMEDIATELY.  That will be the ONLY way to force Goodells hand to doing the right they.  The public backlash will be massive !!!!

 

Now, to anyone who thinks this has not been going on for twenty years.... OPEN YOUR EYES.  The Pats are the most pedestrian team running a JV highschool offense and for 20 years no one has been able to stop their slant passes or crossing routes ?? Bull ship!!!!  THEY CHEAT.  WE KNOW THEY CHEAT.  THEY KEEP GETTING CAUGHT.  

 

How many things do they do, that we don't know about?????  A lot I am sure.  

 

The punishment needs to be massive.  MASSIVE.  No draft picks for 3 years.  Vacatae ALL of their wins, including all six Superbowls.  They cheated on every-single-one, so whybin the world should they be allowed to keep them?!?!?  Ban Belicheater FOR LIFE.  

 

ANYTHING other than something like that, and the Bills should be cheating too.  I'd trade 1 draft pick for 6 Superbowls wouldn't you?????

[thebandit27]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The 'plausible deniability' is strong for the Hoodie in this one

 

Horse *****.

 

I dare anyone to explain that line of thinking. The most detail-oriented coach of all time, who has 100% autonomy over that organization, who has previously been punished for taping opponents' sidelines in perpetuity even after being warned, is going to allow an independent contractor to go handle video work at another team's stadium on behalf of the organization, while not bothering to ensure that every i is dotted and every T is crossed so that they don't get punished again? He just says "yeah whatever, that's fine"?

 

No. *****. Way.

 

They did it. Like always. They deliberately didn't tell the Bengals--who just happen, by total coincidence, to be their next opponent, and they filmed their sideline to get a competitive advantage. 

 

It's what they do. First the cheat off the field, then they cheat on the field. Like when they played here: They aren't good enough to win fair anymore, so they head hunt the starting QB and then try to take out the backup on his 2nd snap.

 

It's their identity. Win at all costs, and always do whatever is necessary, within or outside the rules, to gain an edge.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Horse *****.

 

I dare anyone to explain that line of thinking. The most detail-oriented coach of all time, who has 100% autonomy over that organization, who has previously been punished for taping opponents' sidelines in perpetuity even after being warned, is going to allow an independent contractor to go handle video work at another team's stadium on behalf of the organization, while not bothering to ensure that every i is dotted and every T is crossed so that they don't get punished again? He just says "yeah whatever, that's fine"?

 

No. *****. Way.

 

They did it. Like always. They deliberately didn't tell the Bengals--who just happen, by total coincidence, to be their next opponent, and they filmed their sideline to get a competitive advantage. 

 

It's what they do. First the cheat off the field, then they cheat on the field. Like when they played here: They aren't good enough to win fair anymore, so they head hunt the starting QB and then try to take out the backup on his 2nd snap.

 

It's their identity. Win at all costs, and always do whatever is necessary, within or outside the rules, to gain an edge.

 

I agree with you on all points, but in terms of league investigation and punishment for the Hoodie, that's the Patriots story and they're sticking to it.

[Dan]

10 hours ago, NoSaint said:

it’s still a bit odd to me they’d lay tape for 7 other segments just to set up the bengals for this. That’s high level commitment for low level gains. 
 

why not run this scam for a bigger game, no?

 

not so much a defense as a curiousity

Here's my take... everyone says this is a "low level gain".  That they don't get anything really useful from it.  That they're such a great team they don't need to do this, especially when facing a 1 win team.    

 

But... consider the alternative.   They actually get a lot of useful information.  So much so that the only reason they're such a good team is they've been cheating and using this information for more than a decade.  Take away the video tapes, the signal stealing, the headset communications, the audio in visitors locker rooms, the deflated balls, and lord only knows what else... and maybe none of their players or coaches, including Brady and Belicheck, are the greatest of all time.  They're just a bunch of people that have lied, cheated, and swindled the league.   Take away the systemic cheating and my guess is they're all worse than average and Brady and company would be lucky to win one Super Bowl.   

[TH3]

17 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Honest Question. Is this really against the Rules?  Doing it during the game (SpyGate) is one thing. Doing it a week before at another game you are not in is NORMAL behavior IMO

Nut job says what?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

If only this information were available in another thread.  It's inconceivable that this same information is found in another thread, I mean, it's hardly a story after all.  Adding a poll was a nice touch to attempt differentiation. 

 

Funny how it is no longer a separate thread.

 

Sorry, @SlimShady'sGhost but I think a punishment poll is premature at this point and we don't need 4 Pats threads on a Bills football board.

[thebandit27]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I agree with you on all points, but in terms of league investigation and punishment for the Hoodie, that's the Patriots story and they're sticking to it.

 

Oh I know. I believe that if the league accepts that, then they're 100% complicit in yet another Patriots cheating scandal 

[BeastMaster]

35 minutes ago, mikemac2001 said:

they don’t care about picks 

 

honestly there seasons should be forfeited 

 

they become 0-16 and the teams they played keep the W or the L from the result 

 

Only way it would hurt them 

This.

 

These guys keep winning trophies, and people think these punishments hurt them.

 

They've laughed off every one of these punishments so long as they keep on winning.

 

Something else has to be done to stop it. This doesn't work

[May Day 10]

I wonder if Goodell has hard feelings about the way Kraft and the Patriots were uncooperative during the deflated football thing.  

 

 

Presented with hard evidence, after they were previously let off the hook and told to knock it off, I am not so sure Goodell would let this slide.  Not sure the other owners would be cool with that either.

[thebandit27]

Just now, BeastMaster said:

This.

 

These guys keep winning trophies, and people think these punishments hurt them.

 

They've laughed off every one of these punishments so long as they keep on winning.

 

Something else has to be done to stop it. This doesn't work

 

I agree. Strip them of every Lombardi they've ever won.

 

Anyone that defends that organization is delusional.

[stevewin]

33 minutes ago, Buffaloaf said:

 

I've thought this myself.  Hope it comes out sooner than that.  The Patriots probably make every player/employee sign a ridiculous NDA along with their contract.

 

Really, the players wouldn't even need to know cheating was happening.  Even Brady.  To him, it may seem like the coaches are geniuses because of how quickly they can diagnose defenses and get him in the right play.  I think it was Bruschi who said they would receive the other teams audibles prior to the game.  The players don't know where they come from or the details of how they are obtained, they just do what they're told.

 

To me, this is all on Belichick, Kraft, and probably some other coaches like Adams and McDaniels.  If all these accusations can be proven true they should be banned from the NFL and Kraft should either have to sell the team or become minority owner or something.  

There is zero - ZERO - chance Brady hasn't had knowledge of, and been complicit with, all the cheating over the past 20 years.  He freaking learned how to play QB by never having his helmet radio turned off on the field for God's sake

7 hours ago, BillsFanInCt74 said:

https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart everyone please read this it explains everything the pats do to cheat. Ex players coming out and ratting on them . You need to know who ernie adams is.

Still think what we know is actually just the tip of the iceberg

[John Gianelli]

https://patriotswire.usatoday.com/2019/12/08/chiefs-equipment-mishap-patriots-forfeiture/

 

Okay, so the Chiefs' equipment "accidentally" arrived in Newark, and they were in danger of having to forfeit the game at New England?

 

I'm sure there are no Patriots fans working as baggage handlers at Logan Airport.

[CLTbills]

31 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Horse *****.

 

I dare anyone to explain that line of thinking. The most detail-oriented coach of all time, who has 100% autonomy over that organization, who has previously been punished for taping opponents' sidelines in perpetuity even after being warned, is going to allow an independent contractor to go handle video work at another team's stadium on behalf of the organization, while not bothering to ensure that every i is dotted and every T is crossed so that they don't get punished again? He just says "yeah whatever, that's fine"?

 

No. *****. Way.

 

They did it. Like always. They deliberately didn't tell the Bengals--who just happen, by total coincidence, to be their next opponent, and they filmed their sideline to get a competitive advantage. 

 

It's what they do. First the cheat off the field, then they cheat on the field. Like when they played here: They aren't good enough to win fair anymore, so they head hunt the starting QB and then try to take out the backup on his 2nd snap.

 

It's their identity. Win at all costs, and always do whatever is necessary, within or outside the rules, to gain an edge.

This. And if they’re filming a documentary about the patriots, why are they filming in a game THAT THE PATRIOTS AREN'T A PART OF?

[stevewin]

1 hour ago, jimmy10 said:

I’ve said before and I’ll say again: After the right people die, the world will learn so much more about the depth and breadth of New Englands’s cheating. 

Then once and for all public opinion can sway to stop treating them as a model dynastic franchise, and for God's sake stop calling Brady GOAT - it sickens me every time I hear it

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, CLTbills said:

This. And if they’re filming a documentary about the patriots, why are they filming in a game THAT THE PATRIOTS AREN'T A PART OF?

 

That part is easy to explain: pro scouts do advanced scouting of other teams.

 

The part that can't be explained away is why they only got permission from the visiting team.

[TheCockSportif]

Not sure what the repercussions would be of invalidating their championships, ie would the losing team be crowned as champs, would the entire league's season be invalidated, etc etc etc?

 

Personally, should these allegations be confirmed, I think that NE should be forced to cease all operations (not allowed to participate in any games, not allowed to sell merch, no Pats-related broadcasts) for three years.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Reposting this from a locked thread so it gets some looks

Author is @BillsFanInCt74

Posted 7 hours ago (edited)

This article explains how the patriots have been cheating all along . Ex players ratting them out . People need to see this i wish someone could tweet it  out so alot of nfl fans could read also..https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart

Its a long read but worth it

Edited 7 hours ago by BillsFanInCt74

[stevewin]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

Right now we're in Stage 1 of the latest Patriots****** cheating scandal: "we didn't do it"

 

Stay tuned for Stage 2: "if we did it (but we didn't), then it didn't give us any competitive advantage"

 

Followed eventually by Stage 3: "if we did it (but we didn't), and it gave us a competitive advantage (but it didn't), then everyone else is doing it too"

Earlier in this thread like page 9 someone did the "But everyone does it" defense - was surprised it took that long.

 

There's also "they are so good they don't even need to cheat" - like in some twisted way that excuses it - and of course ignores that maybe the cheating is the REASON for "being good"

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Gugny]

I didn't see this posted anywhere, so if it has been, I'm sorry for the dupe.

 

Listening to Golic/Wingo this morning, Golic Jr., found a tweet detailing how the Pats cheated in 2007 (the original Spygate).  Film crews went to games of future opponents as employees of Kraft Productions, prepared with canned excuses in case they were asked any questions.

 

That's exactly what happened on Sunday.

 

I've often opined that I didn't give a crap about the Pats' cheating ways.  I feel differently now.  When is enough going to be enough for the NFL to do something?  I'm not talking about vacating championships or wins.  But there should be some severe punishments levied if they determine the Pats were, in fact, cheating again.  Lots of money and multiple first/second round draft picks.

[stevewin]

49 minutes ago, Nanker said:

They’re worried about the Bengals? The BENGALS?

The Bengals just happened to be who they were filming when they got caught.  If anything it just supports that the cheating is constant and in place for all opponents - no discrimination

[CLTbills]

12 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

That part is easy to explain: pro scouts do advanced scouting of other teams.

 

The part that can't be explained away is why they only got permission from the visiting team.

Yes, but that isn't the explanation they used. The explanation they used is, "We're filming a documentary series for our website"

 

Why would a documentary about the Patriots require film from a game that the Patriots aren't even participating in?

Edited December 10, 2019 by CLTbills

[boco357]

7 minutes ago, stevewin said:

The Bengals just happened to be who they were filming when they got caught.  If anything it just supports that the cheating is constant and in place for all opponents - no discrimination

Especially now when they can't score points and Dalton is playing again.  Averaged 20 points the last 2 games and that is enough to win vs their offense now.

 

Of course now they are going to use this as a rallying cry too.

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by boco357

[Doc]

35 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

I agree. Strip them of every Lombardi they've ever won.

 

Anyone that defends that organization is delusional.

 

Even ESPN is slamming them. 

[BringBackFergy]

The other 31 NFL owners should demand to see the footage that was taken at the game. Of course, it's possible the Pats already scrubbed the footage to make it look innocuous. Whoever caught them probably didn't confiscate the film. But if the material they recorded is close up shots of the QB coach or other offensive coordinators using hand signals or talking into a microphone, there's plenty of people in the Pats organization that can decipher the hand signals or even read lips.

 

If this was a true "documentary" piece, they could get all the footage they needed during warm ups and provide a live feed copy to the teams playing in that game.  They got caught and it seems we'll never know what was on that original film....knowing their history, I'd say it was closeup shots of QB coaches and coordinators relaying plays.

 

Pieces of chit.

[Dibs]

11 hours ago, NoSaint said:

it’s still a bit odd to me they’d lay tape for 7 other segments just to set up the bengals for this. That’s high level commitment for low level gains. 
 

why not run this scam for a bigger game, no?

 

not so much a defense as a curiousity

 

Though I am not an accomplished multi-scam cheater like those in NE, I think that if I was organizing this I would set up a legit crew to do the doco segments....AND have a crew go to cover my scout guy every week as well.  If we are ever caught, regardless of the week, we claim we are filming the doco..."Look here are some previous episodes to show it's all legit."

 

The payoff isn't the Bengals game. The payoff is EVERY game. They just happened to get caught this week.

 

Like I said, I'm no mastermind scammer, but if this can work in week 14 against the Bengals(getting a crew in the box), I would certainly be doing it at every "scout" game....if I was a big old cheater that is.

 

[major]

I think goodell and the league knows that if this comes out, it’s steroids/baseball type of scandal that will take years to repair. Instead, they cover it up (much like they did with concussions). It will come out though- see Astros 

[TheFunPolice]

Why the Bengals? The Bengals?

 

Again, because it's not about the Bengals or this week's game. Any advantage gained there is incidental. It's about building info on a new HC from the McVay tree. It's for the future as much as anything else. 

 

Taylor will be gone in a year or two in Cincy and end up the OC on a good team. This is just data for Ernie Adams to have at his disposal just in case he can notice something from the entire quarter worth of film of the coach on the sidelines. 

 

The Patriots look for every minute detail. It won them a Super Bowl vs Seattle. They knew the play because they knew every tiny nuance. 

 

Ernie Adams would watch film of McDermott eating breakfast, just to see if he could learn anything. 99% of this filming is probably useless, but it's about the 1 gem Ernie Adams can find. That's his job. 

 

It's surveillance of other coaching staffs, plain and simple. 99.9% of surveillance is mundane and useless. Just part of the deal. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by TheFunPolice

[entropyrules]

7 minutes ago, Gugny said:

I've often opined that I didn't give a crap about the Pats' cheating ways.  I feel differently now.  When is enough going to be enough for the NFL to do something?  I'm not talking about vacating championships or wins.  But there should be some severe punishments levied if they determine the Pats were, in fact, cheating again.  Lots of money and multiple first/second round draft picks.

I'm in Pats territory and dislike them and a number of their more idiotic fans but an overly severe punishment may set a terrible precedent for other teams who inadvertently stumble doing something stupid and then are required to have the same punishment meted out. I would prefer that they simply remove the Pat's ability to get any compensatory picks for about 3-5 years. The rationale is then no one can say they were totally stripped of the ability to field a competitive team. Its one of those areas where they play the game better than any other team so take that  advantage away as teaching lesson. Of course that has some drawbacks if you have teams with almost no comp picks (aka the Bills); there is then no disincentive. 

 

The one piece I don't get is if every team knows the Pat's are doing this why do they have  no or very weak counter measures. Surely there must be a Cersei Lannister lurking in every teams front office.

[apuszczalowski]

21 minutes ago, Groin said:

Not sure what the repercussions would be of invalidating their championships, ie would the losing team be crowned as champs, would the entire league's season be invalidated, etc etc etc?

 

Personally, should these allegations be confirmed, I think that NE should be forced to cease all operations (not allowed to participate in any games, not allowed to sell merch, no Pats-related broadcasts) for three years.

They could just tell them they will no longer be recognized as champions but what would that matter? Everyone's already been through them winning, it's just changing what's written in the history books.

 

And there's no way they force them to cease all operations, that would cost the league money. The most they could do is suspend or ban the coaching staff if it's found they willingly did this to cheat, and force Kraft to have to sell the franchise (similar to what some league's have done to owners who have been found doing other misconducts not tied to the league or sport)

[Rc2catch]

3 minutes ago, major said:

I think goodell and the league knows that if this comes out, it’s steroids/baseball type of scandal that will take years to repair. Instead, they cover it up (much like they did with concussions). It will come out though- see Astros 

The league has to stay ahead of it. They can’t cover it up because the bengals have the original video. The NFL has a copy the bengals made them. If the league tries to hide things or releases a report or punishment stating different Cincinnati can release the video. 
That’s what I understood from reading on here and the pats board anyways when all the tweets started coming out. 

[May Day 10]

2 minutes ago, entropyrules said:

I'm in Pats territory and dislike them and a number of their more idiotic fans but an overly severe punishment may set a terrible precedent for other teams who inadvertently stumble doing something stupid and then are required to have the same punishment meted out. I would prefer that they simply remove the Pat's ability to get any compensatory picks for about 3-5 years. The rationale is then no one can say they were totally stripped of the ability to field a competitive team. Its one of those areas where they play the game better than any other team so take that  advantage away as teaching lesson. Of course that has some drawbacks if you have teams with almost no comp picks (aka the Bills); there is then no disincentive. 

 

The one piece I don't get is if every team knows the Pat's are doing this why do they have  no or very weak counter measures. Surely there must be a Cersei Lannister lurking in every teams front office.

 

I get what you are saying, but this isnt one isolated incident.  This is pervasive conduct that has been going on long-term with warnings from the league.

[Gugny]

3 minutes ago, entropyrules said:

I'm in Pats territory and dislike them and a number of their more idiotic fans but an overly severe punishment may set a terrible precedent for other teams who inadvertently stumble doing something stupid and then are required to have the same punishment meted out. I would prefer that they simply remove the Pat's ability to get any compensatory picks for about 3-5 years. The rationale is then no one can say they were totally stripped of the ability to field a competitive team. Its one of those areas where they play the game better than any other team so take that  advantage away as teaching lesson. Of course that has some drawbacks if you have teams with almost no comp picks (aka the Bills); there is then no disincentive. 

 

The one piece I don't get is if every team knows the Pat's are doing this why do they have  no or very weak counter measures. Surely there must be a Cersei Lannister lurking in every teams front office.

 

I agree that they want to be careful about setting precedent.  But this would mark the 3rd (?) time that they've formally been caught cheating; and the second time caught spying.  Precedent has already been set for being caught once.  Now they need to come down with significant weight.

[SectionC3]

13 minutes ago, CLTbills said:

Yes, but that isn't the explanation they used. The explanation they used is, "We're filming a documentary series for our website"

 

Why would a documentary about the Patriots require film from a game that the Patriots aren't even participating in?

because a patriots employee is being filmed.  Unless the employee went “rogue,” one would think that the activity was sanctioned by the organization.  
 

bottom line here: the patriots lost the benefit of the doubt a long time ago.  And the optics of what happened here are horrible for the Patriots.  The league office cannot be happy that it has to deal with another incident like this involving the patriots in the home stretch of its 100th season. 

[apuszczalowski]

3 minutes ago, entropyrules said:

I'm in Pats territory and dislike them and a number of their more idiotic fans but an overly severe punishment may set a terrible precedent for other teams who inadvertently stumble doing something stupid and then are required to have the same punishment meted out. I would prefer that they simply remove the Pat's ability to get any compensatory picks for about 3-5 years. The rationale is then no one can say they were totally stripped of the ability to field a competitive team. Its one of those areas where they play the game better than any other team so take that  advantage away as teaching lesson. Of course that has some drawbacks if you have teams with almost no comp picks (aka the Bills); there is then no disincentive. 

 

The one piece I don't get is if every team knows the Pat's are doing this why do they have  no or very weak counter measures. Surely there must be a Cersei Lannister lurking in every teams front office.

But the difference is that this isn't the first time for them, they know they can get away with it or just take a small punishment. They need to be hit harder because they keep doing it. If it came out tomorrow the Bills taped an opponent to steal their signs, it would be a first accusation against them. For the Pats, it's added to the list of previous accusations of shady practices and cheating.

[TheCockSportif]

4 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

They could just tell them they will no longer be recognized as champions but what would that matter? Everyone's already been through them winning, it's just changing what's written in the history books.

 

And there's no way they force them to cease all operations, that would cost the league money. The most they could do is suspend or ban the coaching staff if it's found they willingly did this to cheat, and force Kraft to have to sell the franchise (similar to what some league's have done to owners who have been found doing other misconducts not tied to the league or sport)

Yes indeed.  It did cross my mind that Kraft could be forced to sell the team.  Not a bad idea to boot!

[SectionC3]

I’ll add that belichick had what for him was a lengthy statement on the matter.  It struck

me as unusual given that the recording allegedly is independent of the patriots and unrelated to the patriots next football game.  It tells me that the patriots are aware of the gravity of the situation, as is belichick, and they want to get in front of it.

[TheFunPolice]

When something doesn't make sense there is usually a reason...

 

One team is so much smarter than EVERYONE else and understands football better than everyone else, even though they cannot draft worth a crap. Think about that one. 

 

I'm convinced that Ernie Adams' job is to watch all this video and learn as much about the other coaching staffs as possible. Like I said, people focusing on "why the Bengals?" are missing the point. Every second of the video could be useless. Or maybe not. 

[Buffaloaf]

43 minutes ago, stevewin said:

There is zero - ZERO - chance Brady hasn't had knowledge of, and been complicit with, all the cheating over the past 20 years.  He freaking learned how to play QB by never having his helmet radio turned off on the field for God's sake

 

I don't disagree with you.  I was just trying to make the point that players don't necessarily have to be aware of the pats cheating.  I think it's likely Brady knows at least something is going on.  Could be the reason he is willing to take less money than he could probably get on the open market.  

 

What the Patriots have done is just not statistically possible.  Teams with little top talent, like many of the Pats teams over the years, don't win 12 or 13 games a year and go to the superbowl.