The problem with our run defense is simple…

[CoachT]

These defensive tackles are no good.

 

The drought was dreadful, but we had 2 bright spots.. Fred and Kyle. Fred was a good player, but Kyle was great! We have been spoiled with good defensive tackle play for years, and I think we have almost come to expect it. This group we have has been a major disappointment.

 

I’ve gone back and re-watched the games focusing on the backers and d-line. Edmunds and Milano haven’t been perfect but they are good enough. These tackles simply cannot get off blocks. Here is a brief breakdown of what I’ve seen.

 

Star

Wow he’s bad! He comes off the line ok, but stops driving his feet and has a terrible habit of allowing his pads to be turned sideways. For a big guy he doesn’t seem that strong and gets moved fairly easily. I guess I just don’t see what they see, definitely not a starter.

 

Oliver

This has been discussed. Still a rookie, but he looks out of place. He either needs to add weight to play tackle or lose some and play end. Maybe a DE in a 3-4. I can also see him being like a James Harrison. Definitely a great athlete and a decent pass rusher right now. I’m still optimistic but…..

 

Jordan Phillips

Our best guy so far, but maybe a little over-hyped because of the sacks. Lacks the consistency to get too excited about. Pad level is often too high, he gets away with it because of his size.

 

Harrison Phillips

I got him as our 2^nd best guy. Like Jordan he also plays with pad level too high(worst than Jordan) but unlike Jordan lacks the size to get away with it.  He is actually pretty strong and has good instincts. Can see him developing into a top DT but he’s not there yet. Hopefully he’s recovering well.

 

Lorenzo

You may have notices we line Zo up in the DT 3-tech spot on passing downs. I think this tells you something about our tackles. The results haven’t been there. I love Zo but I can’t help but feel that we always play him out of position. He exploded on the scene primarily as an edge rusher. But we have been using him either as an off the line LB or a DT.

 

Peko was the worst one, but he’s gone. Jury is still out on the new guy Taylor #96, nothing really jumped out at me.

 

Overall they all give pretty good effort and seem to be “process guys”. Jordan and Harrison would make good backups, but have been clearly better than Star and Oliver, so it’s puzzling why Star and Oliver were the starters. Hopefully the new guy is good but I’m losing faith in this staff and their ability to scout and coach defensive tackles.

Edited November 7, 2019 by CoachT

[I'm Spartacus]

I appreciate what you are analyzing, but be prepared to receive some serious rebuttal - especially about Star L. and Oliver

[r00tabaga]

IN.

[ColoradoBills]

I thought the simple answer to the problem is our guys don't tackle their guys fast enough.

McDermott should tell them to do that.

[r00tabaga]

Just now, ColoradoBills said:

I thought the simple answer to the problem is our guys don't tackle their guys fast enough.

McDermott should tell them to do that.

And stay in their run fits..... be gap responsible

[TroutDog]

So our entire D line sucks? Just trying to clarify. ? 

[CoachT]

7 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

So our entire D line sucks? Just trying to clarify. ? 

I think our ends are ok. Hughes is good, but is double teamed all day and has never been a double team beater. Again I think Zo would be more help playing end/edge rusher. 

[TroutDog]

8 minutes ago, CoachT said:

I think our ends are ok. Hughes is good, but is double teamed all day and has never been a double team beater. Again I think Zo would be more help playing end/edge rusher. 

I got you. When I read the talking heads who review the All 22 (I don’t), they come up with a decidedly different opinion. 
 

In the game last week the issue was fixed at half so, to me, it makes some of your takes dubious. I do appreciate the time invested, though!

[TH3]

OP - what experience are you bringing to the table to enlighten us with such  analysis? 

[17islongenough]

How are you going to throw Harrison Phillips under the bus.   Run defense was better when he was playing

[Mr. WEO]

26 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

I thought the simple answer to the problem is our guys don't tackle their guys fast enough.

McDermott should tell them to do that.

 

The Lord must first tell McD....

[Just in Atlanta]

If your analysis is correct, I wouldn't call it a simple problem. 

[CoachT]

1 minute ago, 17islongenough said:

How are you going to throw Harrison Phillips under the bus.   Run defense was better when he was playing

I was actually very interested to see if he was the difference. He's just average right now IMO.  

[Buffalo Junction]

OP. You forgot about the disgraced El Capitan we shipped of to Jax. 

[Maybe Someday]

12 minutes ago, CoachT said:

These defensive tackles are no good.

 

The drought was dreadful, but we had 2 bright spots.. Fred and Kyle. Fred was a good player, but Kyle was great! We have been spoiled with good defensive tackle play for years, and I think we have almost come to expect it. This group we have has been a major disappointment.

 

I’ve gone back and re-watched the games focusing on the backers and d-line. Edmunds and Milano haven’t been perfect but they are good enough. These tackles simply cannot get off blocks. Here is a brief breakdown of what I’ve seen.

 

Star

Wow he’s bad! He comes off the line ok, but stops driving his feet and has a terrible habit of allowing his pads to be turned sideways. For a big guy he doesn’t seem that strong and gets moved fairly easily. I guess I just don’t see what they see, definitely not a starter.

 

Oliver

This has been discussed. Still a rookie, but he looks out of place. He either needs to add weight to play tackle or lose some and play end. Maybe a DE in a 3-4. I can also see him being like a James Harrison. Definitely a great athlete and a decent pass rusher right now. I’m still optimistic but…..

 

Jordan Phillips

Our best guy so far, but maybe a little over-hyped because of the sacks. Lacks the consistency to get too excited about. Pad level is often too high, he gets away with it because of his size.

 

Harrison Phillips

I got him as our 2^nd best guy. Like Jordan he also plays with pad level too high(worst than Jordan) but unlike Jordan lacks the size to get away with it.  He is actually pretty strong and has good instincts. Can see him developing into a top DT but he’s not there yet. Hopefully he’s recovering well.

 

Lorenzo

You may have notices we line Zo up in the DT 3-tech spot on passing downs. I think this tells you something about our tackles. The results haven’t been there. I love Zo but I can’t help but feel that we always play him out of position. He exploded on the scene primarily as an edge rusher. But we have been using him either as an off the line LB or a DT.

 

Peko was the worst one, but he’s gone. Jury is still out on the new guy Taylor #96, nothing really jumped out at me.

 

Overall they all give pretty good effort and seem to be “process guys”. Jordan and Harrison would make good backups, but have been clearly better than Star and Oliver, so it’s puzzling why Star and Oliver were the starters. Hopefully the new guy is good but I’m losing faith in this staff and their ability to scout and coach defensive tackles.

 

It's my understanding that our DTs job is to stay in their gaps and clog up the o-line to make sure they can't get to the LBs on the 2nd level, not shed blocks to try and make a play.  We play gap control team defense. When everyone holds their gap there's nowhere for the RB to go.

 

In your research did you find what adjustments we made in games? Last week AP ran for over 100 in the 1st half. We shut him down in the 2nd. Against the Giants Barkley ran for like 70 on the 1st drive then shut him down too. 

[CoachT]

2 minutes ago, Maybe Someday said:

 

It's my understanding that our DTs job is to stay in their gaps and clog up the o-line to make sure they can't get to the LBs on the 2nd level, not shed blocks to try and make a play.  We play gap control team defense. When everyone holds their gap there's nowhere for the RB to go.

 

In your research did you find what adjustments we made in games? Last week AP ran for over 100 in the 1st half. We shut him down in the 2nd. Against the Giants Barkley ran for like 70 on the 1st drive then shut him down too. 

You are right. Some defenses like Schwarts' have the D-line always attacking. We use our guys to eat up blocks so our backers can fly to the ball. But every defense is a gap crontrol defense. And no matter what defense you run, you can's have guys being moved off their spot and not shedding blocks.  I teach my guys to hold the patch of grass that's in their gap. Can't get moved back or sideways, Have to dominate the LOS. 

 

I was focusing more on individual players than scheme or what wen't wrong. But from what I seen, it was simply guys hitting the wrong gap and being moved out off their spot. There were a few plays that first half where we clearly didn't have a body in the gap. Tough to say where it went wrong without knowing the play called.

[r00tabaga]

40 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

L Bell, S Barkley and J Mixon all had same opportunity against this defensive front. Tell me Coach, what was different from then to now?

And how would you fix this horrible defense?

[Don Otreply]

It’s entertaining to read “the answer “‘to our problem threads, invariably the op turns out to be wrong, mostly because in their thoughts the team D line scheme is not what they would use, and then critique line play when they don’t know what the line assignments are or what the scheme is intended to do/ achieve, jmo. Must be a public forum...

 

Go Bills!!!

[Nextmanup]

54 minutes ago, CoachT said:

These defensive tackles are no good.

 

The drought was dreadful, but we had 2 bright spots.. Fred and Kyle. Fred was a good player, but Kyle was great! We have been spoiled with good defensive tackle play for years, and I think we have almost come to expect it. This group we have has been a major disappointment.

 

I’ve gone back and re-watched the games focusing on the backers and d-line. Edmunds and Milano haven’t been perfect but they are good enough. These tackles simply cannot get off blocks. Here is a brief breakdown of what I’ve seen.

 

Star

Wow he’s bad! He comes off the line ok, but stops driving his feet and has a terrible habit of allowing his pads to be turned sideways. For a big guy he doesn’t seem that strong and gets moved fairly easily. I guess I just don’t see what they see, definitely not a starter.

 

Oliver

This has been discussed. Still a rookie, but he looks out of place. He either needs to add weight to play tackle or lose some and play end. Maybe a DE in a 3-4. I can also see him being like a James Harrison. Definitely a great athlete and a decent pass rusher right now. I’m still optimistic but…..

 

Jordan Phillips

Our best guy so far, but maybe a little over-hyped because of the sacks. Lacks the consistency to get too excited about. Pad level is often too high, he gets away with it because of his size.

 

Harrison Phillips

I got him as our 2^nd best guy. Like Jordan he also plays with pad level too high(worst than Jordan) but unlike Jordan lacks the size to get away with it.  He is actually pretty strong and has good instincts. Can see him developing into a top DT but he’s not there yet. Hopefully he’s recovering well.

 

Lorenzo

You may have notices we line Zo up in the DT 3-tech spot on passing downs. I think this tells you something about our tackles. The results haven’t been there. I love Zo but I can’t help but feel that we always play him out of position. He exploded on the scene primarily as an edge rusher. But we have been using him either as an off the line LB or a DT.

 

Peko was the worst one, but he’s gone. Jury is still out on the new guy Taylor #96, nothing really jumped out at me.

 

Overall they all give pretty good effort and seem to be “process guys”. Jordan and Harrison would make good backups, but have been clearly better than Star and Oliver, so it’s puzzling why Star and Oliver were the starters. Hopefully the new guy is good but I’m losing faith in this staff and their ability to scout and coach defensive tackles.

Think about it; McBeane are fully invested in those 2 as "their guys" and they are going to get every chance to succeed...Oliver will get more chances than he probably deserves.  It's all part of the politics of who plays and who doesn't. 

 

Look how long they tried to make Nate work or Zay Jones for that matter.

 

 

[CoachT]

2 minutes ago, r00tabaga said:

L Bell, S Barkley and J Mixon all had same opportunity against this defensive front. Tell me Coach, what was different from then to now?

And how would you fix this horrible defense?

You are weirdly defensive over something you have no control over .. 

 

1. Just because we stopped some guys doesn't mean the tackles played well. 

2. I never said our defense is horrible, I think we have elite DBs and good coaches. I already mentioned I like the linebackers.

 

[r00tabaga]

1 minute ago, CoachT said:

You are weirdly defensive over something you have no control over .. 

 

1. Just because we stopped some guys doesn't mean the tackles played well. 

2. I never said our defense is horrible, I think we have elite DBs and good coaches. I already mentioned I like the linebackers.

 

It's a dead horse that just keeps getting beat this week. That's all. No offense to you. 

 

 

As a side note, I never did get the beating a dead horse analogy or how many ways you can skin a cat.....where the hell did those come from anyway?!?

[H2o]

10 minutes ago, r00tabaga said:

It's a dead horse that just keeps getting beat this week. That's all. No offense to you. 

 

 

As a side note, I never did get the beating a dead horse analogy or how many ways you can skin a cat.....where the hell did those come from anyway?!?

[ColoradoBills]

24 minutes ago, r00tabaga said:

L Bell, S Barkley and J Mixon all had same opportunity against this defensive front. Tell me Coach, what was different from then to now?

And how would you fix this horrible defense?

 

Not sure what you mean but I was being sarcastic saying tackle them earlier.

[aceman_16]

INteresting hot take.

[Augie]

1 hour ago, TroutDog said:

So our entire D line sucks? Just trying to clarify. ? 

 

No, he was just talking about our DT’s. Now, if we include the DE’s..............yeah, I suspect that’s what he’s saying......

6 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Not sure what you mean but I was being sarcastic saying tackle them earlier.

 

No, I think you are onto something!!!   ?

 

That’s gotta help, right? 

[WideNine]

50 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

I got you. When I read the talking heads who review the All 22 (I don’t), they come up with a decidedly different opinion. 
 

In the game last week the issue was fixed at half so, to me, it makes some of your takes dubious. I do appreciate the time invested, though!

 

I felt like Edmunds was a different player flowing to the ball carrier when Harry was in the lineup.

 

We had a couple really good running backs on teams committed to running the ball and our defense was solid shutting them down.

 

Not sure if Harry was just that good at achoring and keeping Edmunds clean, or if teams have figured out how to beat our scheme and isolate our LBs with blocks....

 

 

 

 

[r00tabaga]

16 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Not sure what you mean but I was being sarcastic saying tackle them earlier.

wasnt at you....not sure how that quoted ya

[Fred Slacks]

I get all the Star criticism.  I don't agree with Jordan Phillips hype though.  He actually looks out of place a lot to me.  

 

Oliver I watched the Washington game again and just watched the d-line only.  I thought he played really well in this game.  Maybe because he only played a few snaps but I don't think he is a problem.  I am sure there is more to it than what I am watching but my second time watching the game I felt like he was a bright spot on the D-line.

 

I do agree the other D-tackles are pretty much meh.  Phillips sack in Washington game is not from his pass rush.  It is from the QB rolling out.  Almost like Phillips lucked into the sack.  His sacks vs Tennessee however were legit earned.

[Happy]

58 minutes ago, CoachT said:

I was actually very interested to see if he was the difference. He's just average right now IMO.  

 

Harrison got hurt week 3 against the Bengals.  The rush D was pretty good for the next two weeks, then sucked after the bye at week 6.  Doubt it was Harrison Phillips; most likely Brian Flores figured out how to beat our gap scheme.

[ColoradoBills]

20 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

No, I think you are onto something!!!   ?

 

That’s gotta help, right? 

 

I give all my credit of wisdom to Chauncey Gardner!

 

“In the garden, growth has it seasons. First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.”

[Bakin]

42 minutes ago, r00tabaga said:

It's a dead horse that just keeps getting beat this week. That's all. No offense to you. 

 

 

As a side note, I never did get the beating a dead horse analogy or how many ways you can skin a cat.....where the hell did those come from anyway?!?

I always say - why beat a dead horse when there’s so many live ones you can beat?

[cd1]

4 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I give all my credit of wisdom to Chauncey Gardner!

 

“In the garden, growth has it seasons. First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.”

Love it...

[Happy]

7 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

No. Edmunds has demonstrated the same struggles since last season... hesitation to diagnose the play or just a wrong read. 

 

Also has problems getting off the opposing o-line blocks; doesn't seem strong enough.  If the d-line can't occupy blockers, Edmunds will not make a play when blocked.

I partially blame a complex and rigid defense which we do not fully have the personnel to effectively run.

[frostbitmic]

49 minutes ago, H2o said:

Hit it again, hit it again

[fansince88]

Great traveling conditions to my daughter's house in Dover DE.

[3rdand12]

27 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Also has problems getting off the opposing o-line blocks; doesn't seem strong enough.  If the d-line can't occupy blockers, Edmunds will not make a play when blocked.

I partially blame a complex and rigid defense which we do not fully have the personnel to effectively run.

this is a fair statement on both counts.

 

[Logic]

Nothing quite like people who don't know what they're looking at or what the scheme is asking the players to do watching a few plays and then diagnosing the problems the team is facing.

I just wonder if the OP is available for a conference call with the coaches, since he clearly has this thing figured out.

[White Linen]

 

 

[billsfan_34]

2 hours ago, CoachT said:

These defensive tackles are no good.

 

The drought was dreadful, but we had 2 bright spots.. Fred and Kyle. Fred was a good player, but Kyle was great! We have been spoiled with good defensive tackle play for years, and I think we have almost come to expect it. This group we have has been a major disappointment.

 

I’ve gone back and re-watched the games focusing on the backers and d-line. Edmunds and Milano haven’t been perfect but they are good enough. These tackles simply cannot get off blocks. Here is a brief breakdown of what I’ve seen.

 

Star

Wow he’s bad! He comes off the line ok, but stops driving his feet and has a terrible habit of allowing his pads to be turned sideways. For a big guy he doesn’t seem that strong and gets moved fairly easily. I guess I just don’t see what they see, definitely not a starter.

 

Oliver

This has been discussed. Still a rookie, but he looks out of place. He either needs to add weight to play tackle or lose some and play end. Maybe a DE in a 3-4. I can also see him being like a James Harrison. Definitely a great athlete and a decent pass rusher right now. I’m still optimistic but…..

 

Jordan Phillips

Our best guy so far, but maybe a little over-hyped because of the sacks. Lacks the consistency to get too excited about. Pad level is often too high, he gets away with it because of his size.

 

Harrison Phillips

I got him as our 2^nd best guy. Like Jordan he also plays with pad level too high(worst than Jordan) but unlike Jordan lacks the size to get away with it.  He is actually pretty strong and has good instincts. Can see him developing into a top DT but he’s not there yet. Hopefully he’s recovering well.

 

Lorenzo

You may have notices we line Zo up in the DT 3-tech spot on passing downs. I think this tells you something about our tackles. The results haven’t been there. I love Zo but I can’t help but feel that we always play him out of position. He exploded on the scene primarily as an edge rusher. But we have been using him either as an off the line LB or a DT.

 

Peko was the worst one, but he’s gone. Jury is still out on the new guy Taylor #96, nothing really jumped out at me.

 

Overall they all give pretty good effort and seem to be “process guys”. Jordan and Harrison would make good backups, but have been clearly better than Star and Oliver, so it’s puzzling why Star and Oliver were the starters. Hopefully the new guy is good but I’m losing faith in this staff and their ability to scout and coach defensive tackles.

Let me add- Edmunds side to side is fantastic but loses gap control. Also, up the gut at the second level he doesn’t get his pads low and normally gets run over. 

[White Linen]

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by White Linen