timekills17 Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) While watching the All-22 I noticed when JA lined up in shotgun that the RG would check the line for set, and would tap the center just before the snap.You can see some good examples of this in the 1st and 3rd quarters of the all-22 footage because the camera is to the Bills back in those quarters. For example< watch the Bills' first offensive series starting around the 4 minute mark of the all-22 footage.The RG signaling the center that the line is set isn't that unusual; what interested me was the timing of the snap did not seem to vary after the tap for the entire game.I'll have to watch this and see if they're trying to set the opponent's d-line up at some point by delaying the snap to pull an encroachment/Offside. I assume this was their version of the silent snap to combat crowd noise (not that crowd noise was a problem this week.) It was a little concerning that the entire game, probably 70% in shotgun, the timing was tap, half-second delay, snap. If I were a left side d-line/LB I'd key off that at least once. Edited October 8, 2019 by timekills17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroutDog Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 That’s how they tell the center to snap when it’s too loud. It’s happened for years. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timekills17 Posted October 8, 2019 Author Share Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, TroutDog said: That’s how they tell the center to snap when it’s too loud. It’s happened for years. Yes - I wrote that in my OP. That wasn't the question I posed; it was reference the lack of changing the timing the entire game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, TroutDog said: That’s how they tell the center to snap when it’s too loud. It’s happened for years. Maybe (probably?) unrelated, but at the game I didn’t realize Morse was hurt until late. When did he get hurt? I missed it. I’m glad he was an ankle instead of another concussion guy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, timekills17 said: Yes - I wrote that in my OP. That wasn't the question I posed; it was reference the lack of changing the timing the entire game. As TroutDog said it has been going on forever and I hear you. You’d think some D lineman would have caught on by now but..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock'em Sock'em Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 You can go "on two" with a second tap. It's not too different than a audible snap count. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timekills17 Posted October 8, 2019 Author Share Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, iinii said: As TroutDog said it has been going on forever and I hear you. You’d think some D lineman would have caught on by now but..... I suppose its a bit of "I know you know" game going on. The defense won't use it until its critical, but they know the offense knows its a critical play, and the offense might decide to try and fool them by changing it on that play... But heck, I'd try jumping on the tap at least once. It would force the offense to get out of rhythm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bray Wyatt Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 They do mix it up sometimes and do two taps just to keep the defense honest, not sure if they did that this game but I know I’ve seen it before 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddyjj Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 41 minutes ago, Augie said: Maybe (probably?) unrelated, but at the game I didn’t realize Morse was hurt until late. When did he get hurt? I missed it. I’m glad he was an ankle instead of another concussion guy! Midway through first half 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Isn’t this what you would call a “tell”? Time the tap to snap and get a jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 I think it is probably harder to see the guard moving his hand while watching the ball when it is really loud. With that much noise the defenders can't hear the QB either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubes Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 4 hours ago, Augie said: Maybe (probably?) unrelated, but at the game I didn’t realize Morse was hurt until late. When did he get hurt? I missed it. I’m glad he was an ankle instead of another concussion guy! Don’t be too happy...ankles (especially high ankle sprains) can keep a guy out longer than concussions in many cases. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, Rubes said: Don’t be too happy...ankles (especially high ankle sprains) can keep a guy out longer than concussions in many cases. True, a high ankle sprain can go a LOOOONG time, but another concussion would make me question his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubes Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, Augie said: True, a high ankle sprain can go a LOOOONG time, but another concussion would make me question his career. Good point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Also the broadcast has a good vantage point to see it, but I doubt all the defensive linemen can see it. One or two of them can for sure, but the guys on the edge probably don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 It's an exception to the false start rule, which allows the guard to move in order to signal the center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, iinii said: As TroutDog said it has been going on forever and I hear you. You’d think some D lineman would have caught on by now but..... Well thanks a bunch, blabbermouth! ? * ? Edited October 9, 2019 by Ridgewaycynic2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritBill Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 I always thought the center getting a tap was related to the play clock. The Guard is in more advantageous head position to see the clock. Gives the center a tap on 5 seconds left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCbillsfan Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 12 hours ago, Augie said: Maybe (probably?) unrelated, but at the game I didn’t realize Morse was hurt until late. When did he get hurt? I missed it. I’m glad he was an ankle instead of another concussion guy! He was out with about 7 minutes left in 2nd quarter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookie Man Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 I remember when the line used to hold hands when it was too loud to hear. As soon as your inside hand moved, you can move also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 29 minutes ago, NC Book said: I remember when the line used to hold hands when it was too loud to hear. As soon as your inside hand moved, you can move also. Good lord! How many hands does the centre have?! ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boca BIlls Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 13 hours ago, timekills17 said: While watching the All-22 I noticed when JA lined up in shotgun that the RG would check the line for set, and would tap the center just before the snap.You can see some good examples of this in the 1st and 3rd quarters of the all-22 footage because the camera is to the Bills back in those quarters. For example< watch the Bills' first offensive series starting around the 4 minute mark of the all-22 footage.The RG signaling the center that the line is set isn't that unusual; what interested me was the timing of the snap did not seem to vary after the tap for the entire game.I'll have to watch this and see if they're trying to set the opponent's d-line up at some point by delaying the snap to pull an encroachment/Offside. I assume this was their version of the silent snap to combat crowd noise (not that crowd noise was a problem this week.) It was a little concerning that the entire game, probably 70% in shotgun, the timing was tap, half-second delay, snap. If I were a left side d-line/LB I'd key off that at least once. All teams do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 13 hours ago, timekills17 said: Yes - I wrote that in my OP. That wasn't the question I posed; it was reference the lack of changing the timing the entire game. but it is same all over the NFL. Footlift, clapping etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollars 2 donuts Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 13 hours ago, TroutDog said: That’s how they tell the center to snap when it’s too loud. It’s happened for years. And it is annoying, Trout. How many times do we have to tell our 40,000 Bills road fans, "Don't cheer when we have the ball!"? They better fix this before the Miami road game or this is going to be a problem. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuddyDark Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Isn't this because some C can't look between their legs for the snap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Doug Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 14 hours ago, TroutDog said: That’s how they tell the center to snap when it’s too loud. It’s happened for years. True. I just went through the Pats film library and they have a whole section devoted to this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 40 minutes ago, Saint Doug said: True. I just went through the Pats film library and they have a whole section devoted to this. Clip #1: Kraft putting ??? in ?. Clip #2: ? arrives at NFL Referees Association HQ. Clip #3: ??? ▶️▶️▶️ NFLRA HQ. Clip #4: Scoreboard: NE: 42 Opponent. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 3 hours ago, MAJBobby said: but it is same all over the NFL. Footlift, clapping etc. I think you are missing the point of his question. Mostly not about the touching, clapping, footlift, but about the TIMING. Snapping 1 (or 2) seconds after the tap, on every play, is the main issue here. Going on the same snap count all game. At least I think that's the OP's major point. And yes, it would serve them well to vary the timing throughout the game to keep the defense honest. Of course, you risk more offensive movement penalties as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, The Dean said: I think you are missing the point of his question. Mostly not about the touching, clapping, footlift, but about the TIMING. Snapping 1 (or 2) seconds after the tap, on every play, is the main issue here. Going on the same snap count all game. At least I think that's the OP's major point. And yes, it would serve them well to vary the timing throughout the game to keep the defense honest. Of course, you risk more offensive movement penalties as well. But most of the the time the Clap or the leg lift means ready for the ball there is not really a snap count. The tap is telling the center the QB is ready for the snap. In the huddle it is called on the Ball or on movement. So there really is no snap count. just the QB telling the center they are ready for the snap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnbillsbacker Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 18 hours ago, timekills17 said: While watching the All-22 I noticed when JA lined up in shotgun that the RG would check the line for set, and would tap the center just before the snap.You can see some good examples of this in the 1st and 3rd quarters of the all-22 footage because the camera is to the Bills back in those quarters. For example< watch the Bills' first offensive series starting around the 4 minute mark of the all-22 footage.The RG signaling the center that the line is set isn't that unusual; what interested me was the timing of the snap did not seem to vary after the tap for the entire game.I'll have to watch this and see if they're trying to set the opponent's d-line up at some point by delaying the snap to pull an encroachment/Offside. I assume this was their version of the silent snap to combat crowd noise (not that crowd noise was a problem this week.) It was a little concerning that the entire game, probably 70% in shotgun, the timing was tap, half-second delay, snap. If I were a left side d-line/LB I'd key off that at least once. Shhhh. No leaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 12 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said: It's an exception to the false start rule, which allows the guard to move in order to signal the center. I don't think it is. False starts are determined by the feet/legs after the OL is settled. The G is still not allowed to move their feet when tapping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, LeGOATski said: I don't think it is. False starts are determined by the feet/legs after the OL is settled. The G is still not allowed to move their feet when tapping. I've seen false starts called on arm and head movements. Item 3. Player Under Center. It is legal for a player who has taken a position under or behind the center to go in motion, whether he has placed his hands under center, on his knees, or on the body of the center. However, it is a False Start, if the action is quick and abrupt. If the player fails to come to a complete stop for at least one full second prior to the ball being snapped, it is Illegal Motion. Edited October 9, 2019 by Freddie's Dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said: I've seen false starts called on arm and head movements. I can't remember the last time I've seen that. OL are moving their arms and heads all the time while communicating before the snap. That's not a false start. False start is when they move or flinch the feet/legs. 3 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said: Clip #1: Kraft putting ??? in ?. Clip #2: ? arrives at NFL Referees Association HQ. Clip #3: ??? ▶️▶️▶️ NFLRA HQ. Clip #4: Scoreboard: NE: 42 Opponent. 3 The true silent count 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, LeGOATski said: I can't remember the last time I've seen that. OL are moving their arms and heads all the time while communicating before the snap. That's not a false start. I updated my post earlier with the rule that says a lineman behind the center can put hands on the center. Our difference here may be in 2- or 3-point stance. I think we're actually in violent agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 22 hours ago, timekills17 said: Yes - I wrote that in my OP. That wasn't the question I posed; it was reference the lack of changing the timing the entire game. I've brought this up before too. One way to slow that pass rush is to vary the snap count more than they do. A long READY hut-hut almost every play allows defenses to jump the count. They did the same thing last year assumed our line was so bad it had to be predictable to limit the pre-snap penalties. Edited October 9, 2019 by WideNine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 14 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said: I've seen false starts called on arm and head movements. Item 3. Player Under Center. It is legal for a player who has taken a position under or behind the center to go in motion, whether he has placed his hands under center, on his knees, or on the body of the center. However, it is a False Start, if the action is quick and abrupt. If the player fails to come to a complete stop for at least one full second prior to the ball being snapped, it is Illegal Motion. That is talking about players under center. Not OLmen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, LeGOATski said: That is talking about players under center. Not OLmen Then I got nothing, it's not covered in the rules. Looks like an unwritten rule that permits this movement by a guard not to be called a false start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 18 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said: Isn’t this what you would call a “tell”? Time the tap to snap and get a jump. Sure, unless it's changed up. Defenses would be extremely vulnerable on "critical" plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 4 hours ago, dollars 2 donuts said: And it is annoying, Trout. How many times do we have to tell our 40,000 Bills road fans, "Don't cheer when we have the ball!"? They better fix this before the Miami road game or this is going to be a problem. It doesn’t matter in Miami they have a 10,000,000$ sound system that pipes in crowd noise. Miami was the most annoying stadium I have ever gone too. That 1st down chant is so damn lame”Thats another Miami Dolphins 1st down”. Most of the area around the stadium looks like a demilitarized zone, every house has bars on the windows and doors. It smells like dead fish in a 20 mile radius of the stadium. The Dolphins should get fined for piping in that much fake crowd noise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 3 hours ago, MAJBobby said: But most of the the time the Clap or the leg lift means ready for the ball there is not really a snap count. The tap is telling the center the QB is ready for the snap. In the huddle it is called on the Ball or on movement. So there really is no snap count. just the QB telling the center they are ready for the snap. Gotcha. But some teams vary how long they actually snap the ball after the "signal". In other words, they don't always snap it 1 second after the tap, for example. They vary the timing after the "all set" signal. Now I'm not sure how they go about that, but it seems some teams keep the D off balance a bit more. Just my observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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