Progression from Good to Elite Defense

[Ol Dirty B]

I'll say the communication on the back end has been the best I can recall from a Bills defense in modern times.

 

Hyde is looking amazing. When he had the slot corner switch sides and end up with the sack was a thing of beauty against the Bengals.

[Rocket94]

2 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

I'll say the communication on the back end has been the best I can recall from a Bills defense in modern times.

 

Hyde is looking amazing. When he had the slot corner switch sides and end up with the sack was a thing of beauty against the Bengals.

How else can I say it. They look like and play like a cohesive, disciplined and professional unit.

[LSHMEAB]

5 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

I fairly certain they are top 5 in turnovers. They are #2 in yds... take away the 16 non-offensive points scored against them and they are allowing 11 a game. That’s just nasty. Tops in 3 and outs. 

 

If the defense finishes top 3 in yds and points allowed like it very well could how isn’t that elite? You seem more worried about the style in which they get there. 

 

The chiefs led the NFL in sacks last year and their defense was an open wound. 

 

I give no cares how they get there. If they surrender top 3 yardage and top 3 points allowed(the #1 standard of a D), I have no idea how they cannot be considered with the elite d’s... and again. They are among the tops on the league in turnovers 

 

i saw you talking about imposing your will on an offense earlier.... holding the arguably the best team in the nfl, that has been average 30 a game, to 9 offensive points and 225 yds isn’t imposing your will? You need to see a sack or 2 there to make that claim? I don’t get it 

They stymied Brady last year as well so I think McD has done a really good job mixing up coverage against him. They've also faced Darnold, Eli, and Dalton with a horrible line.

 

Nobody in their right mind is arguing that the defense is not very good; as I said; top 5 right now. What I'm saying is that they could be DOMINANT with that one missing piece. You add a big time play maker on the edge and all of a sudden, you'd see more pressures, sacks and game changing turnovers.

 

I want to see how they handle....I typed this, looked at the schedule, and realized we really don't face a daunting QB list this season. Dak and Wentz will be pretty good tests I suppose. 

[Utah John]

Most of the players on D are going to be playing for quite a while.  Lorax will probably not and he's pretty darned important, but the Bills are trying to develop replacements.

 

The one I'm worried about losing isn't a player, it's Frazier.  D Coordinators as good as him get HC job offers.

[Stank_Nasty]

20 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

They stymied Brady last year as well so I think McD has done a really good job mixing up coverage against him. They've also faced Darnold, Eli, and Dalton with a horrible line.

 

Nobody in their right mind is arguing that the defense is not very good; as I said; top 5 right now. What I'm saying is that they could be DOMINANT with that one missing piece. You add a big time play maker on the edge and all of a sudden, you'd see more pressures, sacks and game changing turnovers.

 

I want to see how they handle....I typed this, looked at the schedule, and realized we really don't face a daunting QB list this season. Dak and Wentz will be pretty good tests I suppose. 

Fair points. I would say that would have the potential to make this defense “generational”. I think they are already a top 3 unit so far this year. I would also argue the best defense in orchard park Sunday wasn’t the one that was getting all the sacks. The bills held the pats to 150 less yds and 1 less offensive point facing a much more productive offense than what the pats d was facing...

 

but somehow the pats d is historically elite and Bradys crap play was just because of an “off” day. I’m flummoxed on that deal. 

 

The bills wasnt nearly as flashy but the proof is in the raw numbers. 

 

EDIT: with the addition of a pass rusher “generational” is a bit aggressive. But best in the NFL? Highly possible. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by Stank_Nasty

[MJS]

1 hour ago, LSHMEAB said:

Good football insight, but it doesn't change the fact that our edge rushers are not great as a unit and that's where a large percentage of sacks/pressures/TURNOVERS emanate from.

Bills are top 5 in turnovers. They have been getting pressure, just not sacks.

[ComradeKayAdams]

I need to see a drastic improvement in red zone defense before calling them elite. After 4 games, they are close to dead last in the NFL in this category (defined as % of drives in red zone that end up as TD's). Last season, they were also close to dead last as well. This needs to change. Elite defenses don't choke like this.

[Buffalo716]

8 minutes ago, KayAdams said:

I need to see a drastic improvement in red zone defense before calling them elite. After 4 games, they are close to dead last in the NFL in this category (defined as % of drives in red zone that end up as TD's). Last season, they were also close to dead last as well. This needs to change. Elite defenses don't choke like this.

The only point statistic that matters is PPG

 

If the other team only gets into the redone twice a game, and they score once I'll take that every day and twice in Sunday because that means the defense probably didn't get up over 16 points

 

But statistically it's bad..  it's more than just numbers it's context

 

 

[mannc]

7 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

And they are going to need an elite passrusher to get to elite status.  

No, they don’t.  They are elite now, as is NE, who also lack an elite pass rusher.  (I would argue that Hughes is damn close to elite, in any event.). Have you not watched the past 4 games?  

3 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

Good football insight, but it doesn't change the fact that our edge rushers are not great as a unit and that's where a large percentage of sacks/pressures/TURNOVERS emanate from.

Except that this defense gets more than it’s share of turnovers.  And it’s no accident.  

[poblano]

We don't really need a "elite" pass rusher, just one that can bring some pressure for himself from the edge, and with the "versatility" (that i don't think Clowney has) to play inside some downs. I will live to have one of the Philly guys.

 

[LSHMEAB]

6 minutes ago, poblano said:

We don't really need a "elite" pass rusher, just one that can bring some pressure for himself from the edge, and with the "versatility" (that i don't think Clowney has) to play inside some downs. I will live to have one of the Philly guys.

 

I think you're referring to Fletcher Cox, who is one of the best defensive lineman in the league, but almost exclusively a DT. Let's just hope Oliver starts to make more of an impact. Loved the pick and expect to see more going forward. Much different style than Cox, but the defense would certainly benefit from EO's emergence.

 

19 minutes ago, mannc said:

No, they don’t.  They are elite now, as is NE, who also lack an elite pass rusher.  (I would argue that Hughes is damn close to elite, in any event.). Have you not watched the past 4 games?  

Except that this defense gets more than it’s share of turnovers.  And it’s no accident.  

We'll see how long that lasts.

[poblano]

40 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I think you're referring to Fletcher Cox, who is one of the best defensive lineman in the league, but almost exclusively a DT. Let's just hope Oliver starts to make more of an impact. Loved the pick and expect to see more going forward. Much different style than Cox, but the defense would certainly benefit from EO's emergence.

 

Cox is close to elite level, so no, I'm taking of Curry, Graham and Barnett, none of them is considered elite level, but together bring enough pressure

 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

9 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

This is year 3 of McDermott and the third year in his and Leslie Frazier's defense..

 

The transformations that have taken place from an opportunistic yet simple cover 3/2 defense in year 1  .... To a well oiled machine that is stingy , disciplined, and creative 

 

McDermott and Frazier are clearly able to create a Defensive gameplan worthy of the 21st century.. and it's a credit to not only them but keeping the same , good players in tact for 3 seasons

 

The communication from the secondary through the LBr unit is second to none and Micah is constantly setting up players for success through his film study and preparation

 

The continuity of the secondary and LBr unit has allowed McDermott and Frazier the ability to call plays they haven't in years past

 

No longer are the days of McDermott and Frazier running a standard cover 3/2 defense that needed turnovers to thrive

 

They are dialing it up.. Now I need to  give some credit to Frazier because he is calling the plays... Frazier is dialing it up

 

Combo coverages, traps, bluffs, Cover 1 press, Simulating Dual A Gap pressure on 3rd downs! My heavens!

 

The ability for our defense to run these traps AND DICTATE where the ball will be thrown is huge... Simulating Dual A Gap pressure continually on 3rd down and bringing it occasionally IS A NIGHTMARE ON A QB

 

Timing , rhythm and internal clock are all thrown off and you start to rush decisions.. and then you make a mistake

 

McDermott and Frazier have taken their lumps through the first 2 seasons but through trial , error and dedication to their craft have built a defense that we all should be proud of and that the NFL will be forced to take notice of

 

And what makes it even better is it looks like all/most of the pieces will be here for a while

 

 

 

 

 

Cant wait for year three of the offense.

 

 

Got to say i haven't heard the term 3/2 defense, what is it exactly?

 

 

[poblano]

11 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

Cant wait for year three of the offense.

 

 

Got to say i haven't heard the term 3/2 defense, what is it exactly?

 

 

I think it refers to a combination of cover 3-cover2( not 3/2)

[ChattanoogaBills]

My brother who happens to be a falcons fan will say that he knows the defense that are in because they never disguise their coverage. So we will show one look pre snap then switch to a different one post snap. Keep mariota in the pocket and blitz occasionally. I think Josh Allen plays but if not we should still be capable enough to score more than they should. Especially if singletary plays.

[Buffalo716]

47 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

Cant wait for year three of the offense.

 

 

Got to say i haven't heard the term 3/2 defense, what is it exactly?

 

 

 

33 minutes ago, poblano said:

I think it refers to a combination of cover 3-cover2( not 3/2)

Yes I just tried shortening saying McDermott primarily ran a  cover 3 and cover 2 defense

22 minutes ago, ChattanoogaBills said:

My brother who happens to be a falcons fan will say that he knows the defense that are in because they never disguise their coverage. So we will show one look pre snap then switch to a different one post snap. Keep mariota in the pocket and blitz occasionally. I think Josh Allen plays but if not we should still be capable enough to score more than they should. Especially if singletary plays.

Yes. McDermott and Frazier have been excellent at disguising their coverages this season. Showing one look and actually doing something completely different post snap

Edited October 3, 2019 by Buffalo716

[Thurman#1]

There's real improvement so far.

 

They've gone from very very good last year, probably somewhere around 4th to 6th best in the league, to signficantly better this year. Arguably top two, though it's very early.

[eball]

12 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Yes, but they also have been investing their high picks on that side of the ball, at the expense of other opportunities (rhymes with LaPomes).

 

And they are going to need an elite passrusher to get to elite status.  Clooney would’ve been a real difference-maker here.

 

George or Rosemary?

 

[PaattMaann]

Poyer and Hyde have also been given the freedom to "freelance" on certain plays given their own interpretation of what the offense is going to do, based on their film study. So if an offense is looking for tendencies from our safeties given certain looks, they arent seeing them because its a spur of the moment decision. Its been quite incredible actually. So these players themselves are due a lot of the credit as well as the coaching staff. It's hard to prepare for a defense that is quite literally changing pre play. 

 

(this is from Micah's and Leslie's own mouths for the record)

Edited October 3, 2019 by PaattMaann

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

11 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

The Bills have 7 sacks in 4 games , almost 2 a game...

 

No team averaged 4 sacks a game last season, and offenses know enough not to throw into the backend of our defense which will limit some Interceptions

 

If we keep forcing 3 and outs, and making teams fight for every yard , all the other things will come

 

to my earlier point ..  in 4 weeks we'll know if they maintain or excel in those areas.  I am not rushing into calling them elite just yet. 

[Jobot]

I think it's a bit premature to call this group elite.  They had one elite performance in 4 weeks and the patriots have serious questions on the O-line.  Not saying they won't get there/maybe they are, but it's a bit early for this.

 

Don't forget, they've got plenty of room to still improve with Edmunds only at his 1.25 seasons, Oliver at .25 seasons, etc.

[bigK14094]

15 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Not to off track this but this is really why I would like to see the bills taking a shot to complete the offense....

 

This defense is championship caliber right now....the offense is a work in progress

 

If made available improve the offense right now

 I was surprised this week when the Bills O was ranked 4th in the AFC........yet I agree the O is a work in progress.  (see Buff News)

[vorpma]

12 hours ago, VW82 said:

 

That’s fair though I do question how much autonomy he really has. Are we sure McD gave him play calling duties back after he took them away last year? 

Truly an assumption (remember what happens when you assume), this is the NFL; if Frazier is not capable of running the defense he would be gone. The HC position cannot be duel hatted! This is hos defense pure and simple!

[Buffalo Junction]

20 minutes ago, vorpma said:

Truly an assumption (remember what happens when you assume), this is the NFL; if Frazier is not capable of running the defense he would be gone. The HC position cannot be duel hatted! This is hos defense pure and simple!

McD is likely heavily involved in the defense. Frazier and McD have known each other for twenty years. They were both position coaches under Jim Johnson in Philly at the turn of the century. The defense we’re looking at today is a combination of that influence (A gap pressure and line stunts) coupled with the cover 3 McD perfected and the cover 2 that Frazier always ran. They managed to mesh the schemes seamlessly which doesn’t happen without exceptional communication. 

[Stank_Nasty]

1 hour ago, Jobot said:

I think it's a bit premature to call this group elite.  They had one elite performance in 4 weeks and the patriots have serious questions on the O-line.  Not saying they won't get there/maybe they are, but it's a bit early for this.

 

Don't forget, they've got plenty of room to still improve with Edmunds only at his 1.25 seasons, Oliver at .25 seasons, etc.

they allowed 8 points to the jets week one while dealing with 4 turnovers by our offense in one half. they've had 2 unreal performances this year and 2 other good ones. the defense is allowing 11 ppg. that's elite. they are 2nd yards allowed. that's elite. they are first in 3 and outs. that's elite. 3rd in turnovers. elite. and also 2nd in qb rating allowed... what more does somebody need to see? its a top 3 defense... now we just need to see how they finish the season. like every other defense in the NFL.... so i'm not buying the premature talk. if its premature to call them elite then its premature for every other defense as well.

 

they are on par with anyone else in the league through 4 games.

2 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

to my earlier point ..  in 4 weeks we'll know if they maintain or excel in those areas.  I am not rushing into calling them elite just yet. 

then I hope we aren't calling any unit in the nfl elite either. if the bills need to do it for 4 more weeks I hope you stay consistent and say every other squad needs to as well.

 

i'm not saying your wrong btw. they need to keep it up. but through 4 weeks they have been an elite unit.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, Stank_Nasty said:

they allowed 8 points to the jets week one while dealing with 4 turnovers by our offense in one half. they've had 2 unreal performances this year and 2 other good ones. the defense is allowing 11 ppg. that's elite. they are 2nd yards allowed. that's elite. they are first in 3 and outs. that's elite. 3rd in turnovers. elite. and also 2nd in qb rating allowed... what more does somebody need to see? its a top 3 defense... now we just need to see how they finish the season. like every other defense in the NFL.... so i'm not buying the premature talk. if its premature to call them elite then its premature for every other defense as well.

 

they are on par with anyone else in the league through 4 games.

 

Let me just get ahead of "those guys ..." and fast-forward a little:

 

But it was the Jets, Giants and Bengals.

 

Then you remind them about LeVeon Bell, Joe Mixon and Saquan Barkley ... and that we shut Brady down.

 

Brady just had a bad game, Bell hadn't played for 2 years, Barkley was hurt and Mixon is overrated.

 

Then you just do the right thing and walk away.

[Stank_Nasty]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Let me just get ahead of "those guys ..." and fast-forward a little:

 

But it was the Jets, Giants and Bengals.

 

Then you remind them about LeVeon Bell, Joe Mixon and Saquan Barkley ... and that we shut Brady down.

 

Brady just had a bad game, Bell hadn't played for 2 years, Barkley was hurt and Mixon is overrated.

 

Then you just do the right thing and walk away.

You can add not being elite because we don't get many sacks to that list...… meanwhile I saw the stillers and chiefs lead the nfl in sacks last year and they were open wounds on defense.

 

E-LE-VEN POINTS A GAME. nuff' said.

 

 

[vorpma]

52 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

McD is likely heavily involved in the defense. Frazier and McD have known each other for twenty years. They were both position coaches under Jim Johnson in Philly at the turn of the century. The defense we’re looking at today is a combination of that influence (A gap pressure and line stunts) coupled with the cover 3 McD perfected and the cover 2 that Frazier always ran. They managed to mesh the schemes seamlessly which doesn’t happen without exceptional communication. 

No argument, good post!

[Jobot]

1 hour ago, Stank_Nasty said:

they allowed 8 points to the jets week one while dealing with 4 turnovers by our offense in one half. they've had 2 unreal performances this year and 2 other good ones. the defense is allowing 11 ppg. that's elite. they are 2nd yards allowed. that's elite. they are first in 3 and outs. that's elite. 3rd in turnovers. elite. and also 2nd in qb rating allowed... what more does somebody need to see? its a top 3 defense... now we just need to see how they finish the season. like every other defense in the NFL.... so i'm not buying the premature talk. if its premature to call them elite then its premature for every other defense as well.

 

they are on par with anyone else in the league through 4 games.

then I hope we aren't calling any unit in the nfl elite either. if the bills need to do it for 4 more weeks I hope you stay consistent and say every other squad needs to as well.

 

i'm not saying your wrong btw. they need to keep it up. but through 4 weeks they have been an elite unit.

 

We can call them elite or whatever you like.  But my list of elite defenses is pretty short so we might just differ in definitions.

 

These teams below from recent memory showed consistent 'elite' play for extended periods of time and would be the only 'elite' defenses I've witnessed.  An elite defense in my mind can basically win a superbowl with their offense kneeling the ball on every down.. I think once Oliver and Edmunds reach their true potential, we'll be able to call that period 'elite'.

 

Bears (current)

Broncos (during SB win season over Carolina)

Seattle (during SB win season over Denver)

Ravens (at height of Ray Lewis/Ed Reed)

[Boatdrinks]

Finishing the season in the top five  or higher in most or all defensive categories would be a pretty good argument for an elite defense. 

[Stank_Nasty]

9 minutes ago, Jobot said:

 

We can call them elite or whatever you like.  But my list of elite defenses is pretty short so we might just differ in definitions.

 

These teams below from recent memory showed consistent 'elite' play for extended periods of time and would be the only 'elite' defenses I've witnessed.  An elite defense in my mind can basically win a superbowl with their offense kneeling the ball on every down.. I think once Oliver and Edmunds reach their true potential, we'll be able to call that period 'elite'.

 

Bears (current)

Broncos (during SB win season over Carolina)

Seattle (during SB win season over Denver)

Ravens (at height of Ray Lewis/Ed Reed)

you're right. our definitions are different. for me an elite player or unit for a given season is one that is regarded as top 3 or 4 in the league any given year.

 

i think 3 of the 4 defenses you mentioned there are generational type defenses... which is on a whole other level for me completely. 

[Jobot]

1 minute ago, Stank_Nasty said:

you're right. our definitions are different. for me an elite player or unit for a given season is one that is regarded as top 3 or 4 in the league any given year.

 

i think 3 of the 4 defenses you mentioned there are generational type defenses... which is on a whole other level for me completely. 

 

Okay I'm on board with that.  But I want the Bills to get to that category, and I think they can based on the delta that their young studs still possess to improve!

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

then I hope we aren't calling any unit in the nfl elite either. if the bills need to do it for 4 more weeks I hope you stay consistent and say every other squad needs to as well.

 

i'm not saying your wrong btw. they need to keep it up. but through 4 weeks they have been an elite unit.

 

Which is my point (to an extent).  

 

4 teams with a collective 5 total wins.  one game against the worst (or second  worst) offense in the NFL this season.

 

They are VERY good.     When I jumped on the "elite" bandwagon last season the Bills got tromped and stomped by over 30 points. 

 

Elite Defenses don't allow 3  + 30 point games  by their opponent.

 

Prove the first 4 weeks are not a mirage by duplicating it again in the next 4 opponents.   I may be swayed to call them elite then.  

 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by SlimShady'sGhost

[Buffalo716]

7 hours ago, Jobot said:

I think it's a bit premature to call this group elite.  They had one elite performance in 4 weeks and the patriots have serious questions on the O-line.  Not saying they won't get there/maybe they are, but it's a bit early for this.

 

Don't forget, they've got plenty of room to still improve with Edmunds only at his 1.25 seasons, Oliver at .25 seasons, etc.

Darnold had like 35 completions and 170 yards. Like 3 yards an attempt, that's elite

 

Eli manning and Dalton were both lost for 85% of the game..  the Bengals had 1-2 good drives all game

 

There aren't 5 defenses better than ours in the league

[BillsPride12]

We are one stud pass rusher away from being an Elite defense but boy we are getting close!

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Which is my point (to an extent).  

 

4 teams with a collective 5 total wins.  one game against the worst (or second  worst) offense in the NFL this season.

 

They are VERY good.     When I jumped on the "elite" bandwagon last season the Bills got tromped and stomped by over 30 points. 

 

Elite Defenses don't allow 3  + 30 point games  by their opponent.

 

Prove the first 4 weeks are not a mirage by duplicating it again in the next 4 opponents.   I may be swayed to call them elite then.  

 

 

 

You're right, elite defenses don't allow 3 30+ point games. Except Chicago last year. And the Jaguars each of the last three years.

 

Actually, some elite defenses do. First because points do not isolate defenses, as they can be scored and hugely effected by offenses and STs. Scoring is a team stat. It's probably 70% defense, but plenty of the other facets leak through and affect points. Yards is the stat that isolates defensive performance far better. And second because even elite defenses can and generally do have a bad game or two.

 

Elite defenses are elite. But it isn't easy to put it into one sentence so easily. There's always an exception or many.

[Doc Brown]

On 10/2/2019 at 5:46 PM, Coach Tuesday said:

Yes, but they also have been investing their high picks on that side of the ball, at the expense of other opportunities (rhymes with LaPomes).

 

And they are going to need an elite passrusher to get to elite status.  Clooney would’ve been a real difference-maker here.

Seems a little over the hill to me.

 

[Aireskoi]

On 10/2/2019 at 10:31 PM, Utah John said:

Most of the players on D are going to be playing for quite a while.  Lorax will probably not and he's pretty darned important, but the Bills are trying to develop replacements.

 

The one I'm worried about losing isn't a player, it's Frazier.  D Coordinators as good as him get HC job offers.

 

The defense seems to be missing a couple pieces to make it legendary.  There needs to be another pass rusher or two that can change the game and require double teams.  Trent Murphy could be upgraded, maybe Johnson will be the guy but it may take another piece on the line.

 

I would like to see the next high draft pick they use on defense address Lorenzo's position.  He's my favorite player, but if he was replaced with someone (next year) who could really be a force as a pass rusher they could be better.  He is so smart and versatile I hope his replacement gets a year or two with him before he's gone.

 

I don't know if any team wants Frazier as a HC, I would be surprised.  I'm sure they would take him as a DC though, especially after working with McD.  I think  the trend is young offensive HC rather than old DC's.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

You're right, elite defenses don't allow 3 30+ point games. Except Chicago last year. And the Jaguars each of the last three years.

 

Last seasons the Bills run defense rankings by total yards was in the high 20’s IIRC.

 

THIS season is 4 weeks old.  

 

 

[Stank_Nasty]

2 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Last seasons the Bills run defense rankings by total yards was in the high 20’s IIRC.

 

THIS season is 4 weeks old.  

 

 

Last year’s run defense was 16th in yds and 9 in ypc. But you’re right. They weren’t elite. But I thought we all kind of knew that. That doesn’t have much to do with this year. Hold out if you like but there is no debating that they have been elite to this point.