Duke Williams impressing again...activate him!

[buffalo2218]

3 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

I'll stand behind my opinion that Zay is much better than you give him credit for and is deserving to be ont he active roster over Duke.  Bills coaches agree and you want to throw shade go for it.

 

What is funny is that you continue this 'drama' about Zay like we all forget what your agenda is....look, you "called it wrong" son in February and you're calling it wrong again right now.   Move on from it... you said you hoped Zay would do well, yet 2 weeks in you're looking for him to get cut...again this is the same double talk you did back in february

Hmm, the way I see it, this is Zay's 3rd year. And up to this point, he hasn't shown any progression at all. A lot of what kept Zay on the 53 is his willingness to play special teams. It sure wasn't because of his stellar performances in preseason. A guy getting this much time to develop and not have much to show for it does not have long to fix his issues, and yes, he does have issues. If Williams keeps this up in practice, he will end up replacing someone. If he produces more than Zay when brought up, I guarantee Zay's time will be cut in half.

[MasterStrategist]

2 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

 

I thought you were reasonable based on earlier posts but this is just rah-rah bs. Come on man. 

 

YOU have your favorites and obviously your favorite whipping boys and I thank christ every day you’re not in charge. For ***** sake man. 

absolutely, it is laughable how this guy trolls Zay at every turn.

 

That "calling it now" February thread is priceless, Lololol

 

1 minute ago, buffalo2218 said:

Hmm, the way I see it, this is Zay's 3rd year. And up to this point, he hasn't shown any progression at all. A lot of what kept Zay on the 53 is his willingness to play special teams. It sure wasn't because of his stellar performances in preseason. A guy getting this much time to develop and not have much to show for it does not have long to fix his issues, and yes, he does have issues. If Williams keeps this up in practice, he will end up replacing someone. If he produces more than Zay when brought up, I guarantee Zay's time will be cut in half.

I might have missed it, but has Zay played a significant role on specials ever in his career?  Robert Foster might be who you're thinking of

[buffalo2218]

2 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

absolutely, it is laughable how this guy trolls Zay at every turn.

 

That "calling it now" February thread is priceless, Lololol

 

I might have missed it, but has Zay played a significant role on specials ever in his career?  Robert Foster might be who you're thinking of

Actually, I'm thinking of the same guy that's been in the league more than long enough to fix his issues. If Zay was all that, then there was no point of signing Brown and/or Beasley. Why would Zay get more playing time in the 3rd preseason game when he was the only "starter" on the field against Detroit? If your counter is that Williams only played against 3rd stringers, then guess what? Zay did too. Now for speed, yeah Williams isn't a burner. Take a look at our WR corp and you'll notice that Williams is probably taller than all of them. I won't argue if the consensus with the coaching staff is about shorter and faster WRs. But the fact is, Williams is better at catching the ball. Definitely better at contested catches

[NoHuddleKelly12]

 

[eanyills]

The team needs a third WR who is better than Zay or Duke as they are right now.

 

Chances are neither are that guy next year, either.

[JoPoy88]

18 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

absolutely, it is laughable how this guy trolls Zay at every turn.

 

That "calling it now" February thread is priceless, Lololol

 

I might have missed it, but has Zay played a significant role on specials ever in his career?  Robert Foster might be who you're thinking of

 

He’s just shilling at this point because he wants to be proven right. It’s fine, just be honest about it. Pimping a catch from a guy on the scout team is pretty desperate though.

[buffalo2218]

Just now, eanyills said:

The team needs a third WR who is better than Zay or Duke as they are right now.

 

Chances are neither are that guy next year, either.

Can't really say that if Williams doesn't get a chance, Zay's had a ton more than him

[BuffaloTX]

I'm all for replacing Zay Jones with him.

[MasterStrategist]

12 minutes ago, buffalo2218 said:

Actually, I'm thinking of the same guy that's been in the league more than long enough to fix his issues. If Zay was all that, then there was no point of signing Brown and/or Beasley. Why would Zay get more playing time in the 3rd preseason game when he was the only "starter" on the field against Detroit? If your counter is that Williams only played against 3rd stringers, then guess what? Zay did too. Now for speed, yeah Williams isn't a burner. Take a look at our WR corp and you'll notice that Williams is probably taller than all of them. I won't argue if the consensus with the coaching staff is about shorter and faster WRs. But the fact is, Williams is better at catching the ball. Definitely better at contested catches

I dont think anyone. certainly not me, is saying Zay is "all that".  He hasn't performed up to his 2nd round draft status. and I feel that is what most are frustrated about.  

 

My point isn't who played against 3rd stringers, it's that Duke hasn't shown anything against nfl starters.  Again, Zay isn't blowing anybody's doors off. but he has nfl starter production (see last season).  This coaching staff isn't promoting some unknown and cutting a 2nd rounder in his 3rd year unless they are absolutely certain.  

 

And you can't use the 'long enough' argument against Zay and hold Duke to a different standard.  Duke came out of Auburn in 2015 and is still developing, as is Zay (drafted in 2017).  

 

If someone tries signing him, perhaps the staff moves on from Connor McDermott.  We shall see, in the meantime, Zay isn't going anywhere

[Nelius]

3 hours ago, Jumpsuit Jim said:

And nobody would miss Foster. How can you miss someone who has been nonexistent for the season so far?

 

Right there with you, man. Been saying this since preseason. Seems more people are starting to notice if this thread is any indication. It's fun to hate on Zay apparently but Robert Foster can't even block. Give me Duke over Foster.

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I - and I think many others - LOVED what Foster brought to the table last season.  Since OTAs, up until last week, he's shown nothing.  Not sure if he got lazy, or if he's hurt - but something is definitely up.  He looked like he had the makings of a legitimate #1 WR last season.  I'm totally confused.

 

He also looked like a UDFA that was cut and no one claimed last year. 

 

Hes just erratic. Talented but doesn’t put it together all the time.

[buffalo2218]

2 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

I dont think anyone. certainly not me, is saying Zay is "all that".  He hasn't performed up to his 2nd round draft status. and I feel that is what most are frustrated about.  

 

My point isn't who played against 3rd stringers, it's that Duke hasn't shown anything against nfl starters.  Again, Zay isn't blowing anybody's doors off. but he has nfl starter production (see last season).  This coaching staff isn't promoting some unknown and cutting a 2nd rounder in his 3rd year unless they are absolutely certain.  

 

And you can't use the 'long enough' argument against Zay and hold Duke to a different standard.  Duke came out of Auburn in 2015 and is still developing, as is Zay (drafted in 2017).  

 

If someone tries signing him, perhaps the staff moves on from Connor McDermott.  We shall see, in the meantime, Zay isn't going anywhere

Williams can only do what he can, be it against 2nd or 3rd stringers, he still produced. The criticism laid on Jones is laid on a 3rd year player, as you said, he hasn't performed up to his draft status, even more frustrating that we traded a pick to get him. Williams hasn't had any time against NFL starters, so everyone (including myself) should reserve judgment until that happens.

[Nelius]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Good post, this is all fair and reasonable IMO.  The only thing I dont agree on is #3...Foster has 100% more production, but he also has 100% more opportunity.  So not really fair to compare "production" when Duke is exactly where Foster basically was early last year...on the PS, hungry for a cache to prove himself in a live NFL game.  

 

To be clear, I am still bullish on Foster...his lack of involvement has been puzzling, but I feel like they will try and get him more involved.  

 

Agreed, and it's not like Foster is some proven vet, I don't know if I'm buying the long-leash theory. It's far more likely that Foster is like countless other UFDA's that flashed and then fizzled rather than Doug Baldwin. I'm also not following why so many are okay with waiting 11 weeks for Foster to be a poor man's John Brown when 6'2" Duke Williams is high pointing circus catches every time he gets an opportunity? Madness

Edited September 19, 2019 by Nelius

[Rocket94]

The Duke may surface in the New England game as a no frills red zone weapon. If the Bills dare to make the move, the Dukes combination of size, hands and toughness may help throw the Pats off balance and give the Bills a better chance of winning.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Rocket94

[Dr. K]

I think I'm growing to hate Duke Williams just to spite Alphadawg7.

 

Give it a rest.

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

The fact that Foster has no receptions concerns me.  If he puts up another goose egg this week, I will have a difficult time understanding why he's still on the active roster.

 

Every receiver on the team has a specific role, Foster included.

 

Brown and Beasley are obviously the top 2. We'll throw to the other receivers now and again to keep defenses honest, but Brown and Beasley are the high volume catchers.

 

McKenzie is Beasley's back up, and comes in for gadget plays. Defenses have to pay attention when he's on the field.

 

Foster is Brown's back up, and comes in to take the top off the defense on specific play calls. I bet he will get a couple shot calls in the next 2 weeks. Defenses have to open up the entire field when he's in the lineup.

 

Roberts is the premier kick returner.

 

Zay is the blocking WR. He is more valuable in the run game than the pass game but he has his role. This is why Duke will not be taking his spot this year. We already know Zay is a solid blocker against NFL talent. I'm not sure Duke is at that level yet.

 

Duke would have no defined role on the team right now. A year on the practice squad will do him good.

Edited September 19, 2019 by HappyDays

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, Jumpsuit Jim said:

Probably because I may have pegged you wrongly as a “Foster over Zay” type. I just don’t understand that. 

 

I do do think Duke would be good on the team, I just think Foster is the one to go. 

 

I'm a Foster over Zay type.

 

I actually think this Sunday Foster is going to have at least a couple big catches. Watching those plays Joe B highlighted where Foster was clearly the target and got open but the ball just never got to him tells me Daboll has plans for him.

 

Zay has been a waste of space.

 

I know Gunner points to his run blocking, but ya know who proved to be a pretty damn good run blocker in preseason?

 

Da Duke

 

thus...

 

I am also a Duke over Zay type of guy.

 

But seems this coaching staff is trying to allow time for the light to go on for Zay. So be it. Duke's still on our team. I suspect if another team poaches him we call him up.

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

Slow your roll.  As others have posted, Tre' was in a non-contact jersey, so the Duke was running patterns against air.  While I love the idea of activating the Duke, I don't like the idea of running Foster through waivers.  Hopefully Zay and McBeane will break up, then we can get A#1 where we want him:  on the roster and on the field.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

See that red jersey? Means Tre isn't fully healthy

 

He has a neck injury..  im sure he isn't going ?

 

still a great catch

 

Hmmm. Tre has not been himself through two games. Sunday was one of the poorest games I have seen him play in the NFL. I wonder how serious that injury is? Definitely concerning. 

 

On Williams - his path to the roster is definitely blocked by Zay Jones in the sense that his role would likely not be as a big volume catch guy but as a receiver who can run block and be deployed in the redzone. It should be said Zay's run blocking through two games has been absolutely excellent - he has really shown up in that regard but it has to be a second string to your bow I don't think you can be a receiver who makes a living as a blocker. I think the advantage Zay probably still has is he can be used right across the formation whereas I think Williams is probably an outside only guy. I'm not pounding the table for Williams in the same way as some others but if another team tried to claim him off the PS it would force the Bills to make a decision - how much do they really like him? At that point it does come down to Duke or Zay and I might be tempted to see what I have in Duke. 

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, White Linen said:

 

He looks absolutely pooped after that route and catch.  I wonder if it's a conditioning issue - where they're still working on getting him to NFL standards.  

 

Just a wild guess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

He does????

 

What in that video tells you conditioning is a question?

[Dkollidas]

I think if Zay disappoints again this week, you have to look into giving either McKenzie or Williams more reps. Williams would be interesting to throw something completely new at New England.

 

For this week though, I think they give Zay another shot. 

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, MasterStrategist said:

I guess you missed Duke was going against 3rd stringers when he made most if not all his catches in preseason.

 

2nd AND 3rd stringers.

 

He was also a monster run blocker with his 1st string reps.

 

1 hour ago, MasterStrategist said:

 

Duke Williams hopefully develops, but he isn't as good as Zay Jones right now or Robert Foster.  And Zay and Robert aren't deserving to get targets over Smoke or Beasley right now either.

 

Let's go for 50 more pages of this nonsense seemed to be entertaining just a few months ago.  Still waiting for you to live up to your claim that you're rooting for Zay....just be patient and let things get going, we're only 2 games in for crying out loud

 

Zay is in year 3 and he still sucks.

 

He was a 2nd round WR with 1st round talk.

 

Patience for a player like that is 1 year, not 2+ years.

 

He sucks. If he turns it around suddenly, awesome. But I have no more patience for him and I really think Duke is putting some pressure on him to perform. Like I said before, you can see it in the way he "congratulates" Duke after that catch.

 

Zay is on borrowed time, I hope he uses it wisely.

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, JoPoy88 said:

 

He’s just shilling at this point because he wants to be proven right. It’s fine, just be honest about it. Pimping a catch from a guy on the scout team is pretty desperate though.

 

It's not one catch.

 

By my count I think we have access to at least 5 catches via preseason games AND in practice via twitter that are more impressive as catches than anything we've seen from Zay in 2+ years in the NFL.

 

And it doesn't matter the competition... Duke made those spectacular catches that Zay NEVER EVER does.

[TheBrownBear]

Some thoughts:

 

I like Duke, but why do so many feel the need to shake things up?  We are 2-0 and the passing game has been pretty darn good.  Each of the WRs on the 53 provide us with a different skill set.  Zay and Duke are such different animals, you can't just swap one for the other.  Zay is a good route runner and blocker, and I get the sense that he's developing into a leader of sorts in the locker room by the way McDermott regards him.  I could see Duke for Foster maybe, but Foster flashed big-time upside last year and he's a legit deep ball threat that Duke isn't.  I also think Duke's size isn't needed so much with a guy like Allen at QB.  I thinks it's better to have a bunch of those smaller fast dudes out there spreading the D out, so we can take advantage of Josh's redzone running ability.  He's not some statue that you need to bail out with fade routes.

 

Regarding Foster, most of his demotion is just a result of the fact that we signed two talented, veteran guys at WR in the off-season.  Brown and Beasley are frankly better players than Foster at this point. Now, this is just speculation on my part, but I have to wonder if some of Foster's fall on the depth chart doesn't have to do with his level of professionalism and work ethic.  He basically admitted as much last year.  Now you've got two real pros in front of him, so the question becomes: do they become mentors of sorts or at least real examples for him as to how to approach the game, or does Foster remain oblivious, get discouraged or resentful and let his career slip through his fingers?  The guy we saw last year is super talented and proved that he can play in this league.  I'd hate to see him just disappear. 

[Nelius]

8 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

It's not one catch.

 

By my count I think we have access to at least 5 catches via preseason games AND in practice via twitter that are more impressive as catches than anything we've seen from Zay in 2+ years in the NFL.

 

And it doesn't matter the competition... Duke made those spectacular catches that Zay NEVER EVER does.

 

Right on. One catch? Where do people come up with this stuff? And yeah I know it's only the CFL and every Bills fan and their mother thinks they could compete there, but dude led that entire league in receiving last year and was once a top prospect for the NFL. This isn't some out of shape bum making circus catches like like he's got some singular hidden talent, this is a legitimate wide receiver regularly making insane catches against legitimate NFL competition. The mental gymnastics some of you are going through to deny Duke's talent, sheesh.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Nelius

[John from Riverside]

I actually see no good reason that Zay Jones is starting over Robert Foster.....none...I have this sneaking suspician that Roberts will actually see field time and not just as the main returner on ST

 

I think Duke is gonna get his chance...something will give.

[Nelius]

4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I actually see no good reason that Zay Jones is starting over Robert Foster.....none...I have this sneaking suspician that Roberts will actually see field time and not just as the main returner on ST

 

I think Duke is gonna get his chance...something will give.

 

Did you see that gif of Foster's whiffed block recently? Not good. He either has no idea what he's doing out there sometimes or he completely gave up.

 

Zay on the other hand is probably our best blocking wide receiver. There's a reason. It's really just a matter of some catching on that Foster is an UDFA that might not be that good.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Nelius

[White Linen]

30 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

He does????

 

What in that video tells you conditioning is a question?

 

First, I said it was a wild guess, so no need to be so puzzled.  

 

It looked to me like he jogged back winded and he couldn't jump as high as the team mate he celebrated with.  Just an unfounded observation.

 

Like most fans, just guessing on why he's not playing.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I actually see no good reason that Zay Jones is starting over Robert Foster.....none...I have this sneaking suspician that Roberts will actually see field time and not just as the main returner on ST

 

I think Duke is gonna get his chance...something will give.

 

Blocking. Zay has been outstanding as a run blocker and you do need that in Daboll's scheme. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

I'll stand behind my opinion that Zay is much better than you give him credit for and is deserving to be ont he active roster over Duke.  Bills coaches agree and you want to throw shade go for it.

 

What is funny is that you continue this 'drama' about Zay like we all forget what your agenda is....look, you "called it wrong" son in February and you're calling it wrong again right now.   Move on from it... you said you hoped Zay would do well, yet 2 weeks in you're looking for him to get cut...again this is the same double talk you did back in february

 

Lmao, except everything I criticized him for was spot on and he’s proved you wrong on the field.  

 

Sorry, try again.

2 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

 

I thought you were reasonable based on earlier posts but this is just rah-rah bs. Come on man. 

 

YOU have your favorites and obviously your favorite whipping boys and I thank christ every day you’re not in charge. For ***** sake man. 

 

Film doesn’t lie. 

[transplantbillsfan]

38 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

First, I said it was a wild guess, so no need to be so puzzled.  

 

No, look at what you said. You said he looked absolutely pooped. You didn't say it was a wild guess he was absolutely pooped.

 

Backtracking is fine in this case, though.

 

38 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

It looked to me like he jogged back winded and he couldn't jump as high as the team mate he celebrated with.  Just an unfounded observation.

 

Like most fans, just guessing on why he's not playing.

 

There ya go. At least you quickly realized the stupidity of your previous statement. We've all done it 

[Peace Frog]

Unleash him and Andre Roberts against New England.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

 

He’s just shilling at this point because he wants to be proven right. It’s fine, just be honest about it. Pimping a catch from a guy on the scout team is pretty desperate though.

 

Lmao.  Show me anything in 2019 that proves any criticism I said about Zay wrong.  Anything, and I will never mention him again.

 

Hint:  You can’t.

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Rocket94]

11 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Unleash him and Andre Roberts against New England.

It could happen. I would not be surprised. Nothing surprises me anymore.

[formerlyofCtown]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

What are you talking about?  Duke did this today, its a topic today...and LOTS of people want to see Duke get a shot here.  And sorry, when you drop a TD pass in a one score game, then you are going to get criticism as a player.  Especially when you have 32 total yards on the season and also another dropped TD in preseason.  

You mean when you cant catch a bad pass.

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

2nd AND 3rd stringers.

 

He was also a monster run blocker with his 1st string reps.

 

 

Zay is in year 3 and he still sucks.

 

He was a 2nd round WR with 1st round talk.

 

Patience for a player like that is 1 year, not 2+ years.

 

He sucks. If he turns it around suddenly, awesome. But I have no more patience for him and I really think Duke is putting some pressure on him to perform. Like I said before, you can see it in the way he "congratulates" Duke after that catch.

 

Zay is on borrowed time, I hope he uses it wisely.

He cant throw himself the ball.  I remember all the experts on this board saying how much Robert Woods sucked.

 

Yes I know you are confused Alpha.  You were confused when you said he wouldnt be on the roster week one.

Brown and Beasley are the now.

Zay, Foster and Williams are the future.

Edited September 19, 2019 by formerlyofCtown

[Alphadawg7]

54 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Blocking. Zay has been outstanding as a run blocker and you do need that in Daboll's scheme. 

 

Yeah I agree with this, Zay definitely blocks better than Foster.  I’m starting to wonder if Foster is going to regain a size-able role here.  His disappearance after how ended last year has to be the most disappointing story line of the early season.  

[Reader]

Out of curiosity who was the last WR we put on our practice squad that went on to play amazing elsewhere? If nothing else I guess I feel comfortable trusting the coaching staff?

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

 

I thought you were reasonable based on earlier posts but this is just rah-rah bs. Come on man. 

 

YOU have your favorites and obviously your favorite whipping boys and I thank christ every day you’re not in charge. For ***** sake man. 

 

Alpha does have a tendency to have favourites and "root" for certain players. But it doesn't make him wrong on Zay. A lot of what he says is true. The simple facts are Zay does not catch enough of the balls thrown in his direction. 

[formerlyofCtown]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Alpha does have a tendency to have favourites and "root" for certain players. But it doesn't make him wrong on Zay. A lot of what he says is true. The simple facts are Zay does not catch enough of the balls thrown in his direction. 

I suppose even if the ball is thrown at his feet it is still in his direction.

[folz]

Playing wide receiver is more than just making catches. To Zay's detractors, let me speculate for a minute...

 

Daboll's offense is vast and complicated. A WR has to retain a lot of information because you often run similar plays out of different formations or different personal groups, etc. And the sheer volume of plays is a lot to learn. And coming from the New England school, each week is game specific. You're not really running the exact same offense each week. It changes every game. Plus, especially as the third wide out, you aren't going to see a ton of balls come your way, so you better be a good blocker for the team to have value in putting you out there. And that means understanding all of the run plays as well. 

 

Last year, we had a bad, unathletic offensive line. Daboll had his hands tied behind his back, so he had to simplify everything. No screens, no pulling plays, etc., etc. So, Foster had fewer plays to learn and run. Maybe he and Williams are just taking longer to master the offense. If they were the better players (overall), I think they would be playing. This coaching staff doesn't play favorites, they put their best men out there. And they know these players and what the team needs out of them a lot better than we do just seeing a nice catch here and there.

 

I think it is a simple matter of Zay knowing the offense better and being the best blocker of the three (right now). We know that Zay had to help Benjamin when he was here, knowing where to lineup and it actually happened a couple of times in this preseason where Zay had to direct Foster as to the proper alignment on a play. Maybe Duke's transitioning from the CFL is taking some time. Maybe Foster didn't put the study and proper prep time in coming off of his rookie season (that happens to a lot of 2nd year players, not knowing how to be a true professional yet, and they have a sophomore slump). There is a reason that Zay is getting more snaps as of now.

 

Also in Zay's defense, I find it interesting that people roast him for not catching a very difficult pass (the possible TD), a "drop" that they would have forgiven of any other receiver on the roster, but they never mention when he makes a big third down conversion. And with Josh throwing so many balls to Brown and Beasley and really spreading the ball around, of course Zay doesn't have gaudy stats. So to bring up his yardage after two games seems a pretty bad argument as well. Especially with the offense still trying to find their identity. 

 

Having said all of that, I love Foster and Duke and I hope they keep developing (I wanted Duke to make the 53). And if they reach a point where they unseat Zay, I'll be all for it. I know Zay hasn't lived up to his 2nd round draft status, but this bashing of Zay seems over the top to me. The kid does nothing but work hard and is a team player.