Edmunds, Oliver & Morse are a great foundation

[Simon]

While it's hard to be sold on Mr Beane quite yet, one thing that you can really appreciate about him is that he understands that most football games are won from the inside out. They've invested heavily in the middle of their units on both sides of the ball and that willingness to invest both significant draft capital and financial resources into these keystones is very encouraging.

Edmunds, Oliver and Morse are three of the best ballplayers on this roster and if Beane continues to focus his assets on maintaining that kind of interior infrastructure, I think it bodes very well for the Bills going forward.

 

 

[2ForMacAdoo]

Excellent observation. Lotulelei is not the extraordinary talent that Edmunds and Oliver are but he also represents another heavy investment up the middle of that D. 

[cage]

Why is it "hard to be sold on Mr Beane"?  Unless you're talking about this guy?

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by cage

[LeGOATski]

52 minutes ago, cage said:

Why is it "hard to be sold on Mr Beane"?  Unless you're talking about this guy?

 

 

 

I'm 100% sold on that guy.

 

Bring him in.

 

Head of security.

[Aussie Joe]

Pick 9, Pick 16 and the highest paid Center in the League..

 

You would expect them to be good..

[Simon]

6 hours ago, cage said:

Why is it "hard to be sold on Mr Beane"?  

There's a couple of things that are pretty concerning.

One is that I don't think he's done nearly enough to put a support system around Josh Allen that will enable him to reach his potential. When you get your hands on a legitimate blue chip QB prospect like that, your #1 priority instantly becomes surrounding him with the kind of talent that will help him succeed. Instead, after two offseasons of opportunities for Beane, Josh Allen is still standing back there behind what is mostly a patchwork offensive line, without a legitimate starting NFL TE, throwing to a bunch of smurfs with a 3 foot catch radius, all being coached by a guy who might have the worst track record in the entire NFL as an offensive coordinator. That is not a recipe for success and he has to do better.

The other thing that is worrying is the way he's managed the pro personnel aspect of the roster so far. The shotgun approach to FA is not necessarily bad in and of itself. Yeah, you're going to have a bunch of misses, that's just the nature of the beast. But what Beane has brought in here thus far hasn't just been bad, it's been historically bad. That gawdawful mess of signings last year was a failure on an epic scale; you might be hard pressed to find a worse batch of FA additions in the history of this franchise. He has a chance to show improved decision-making this year as it relates to how he manages to his professional roster, but starting the season by cutting the RB with the best combination of talent/experience/versatility in order to save a few bucks does not exactly inspire confidence.

I'm not hoping for him to be fired or anything, but if he doesn't show significant improvement in these two areas his tenure here is going to be neither successful nor sustained.

 

[Epstein's Mother]

6 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

Pick 9, Pick 16 and the highest paid Center in the League..

 

You would expect them to be good..

 

Because Donohoe and Whaley would have never whiffed on those.

[oldmanfan]

7 minutes ago, Simon said:

There's a couple of things that are pretty concerning.

One is that I don't think he's done nearly enough to put a support system around Josh Allen that will enable him to reach his potential. When you get your hands on a legitimate blue chip QB prospect like that, your #1 priority instantly becomes surrounding him with the kind of talent that will help him succeed. Instead, after two offseasons of opportunities for Beane, Josh Allen is still standing back there behind what is mostly a patchwork offensive line, without a legitimate starting NFL TE, throwing to a bunch of smurfs with a 3 foot catch radius, all being coached by a guy who might have the worst track record in the entire NFL as an offensive coordinator. That is not a recipe for success and he has to do better.

The other thing that is worrying is the way he's managed the pro personnel aspect of the roster so far. The shotgun approach to FA is not necessarily bad in and of itself. Yeah, you're going to have a bunch of misses, that's just the nature of the beast. But what Beane has brought in here thus far hasn't just been bad, it's been historically bad. That gawdawful mess of signings last year was a failure on an epic scale; you might be hard pressed to find a worse batch of FA additions in the history of this franchise. He has a chance to show improved decision-making this year as it relates to how he manages to his professional roster, but starting the season by cutting the RB with the best combination of talent/experience/versatility in order to save a few bucks does not exactly inspire confidence.

I'm not hoping for him to be fired or anything, but if he doesn't show significant improvement in these two areas his tenure here is going to be neither successful nor sustained.

 

Yawn........

[Simon]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Yawn........

Thank you for your stellar contribution.

The board is a better place because of your keen insight and commitment to excellence.

[Aussie Joe]

13 minutes ago, Epstein's Mother said:

 

Because Donohoe and Whaley would have never whiffed on those.

 

I hope what they would do is not the benchmark..

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Aussie Joe

[thebandit27]

Just popping in to say that I agree, and that it's good to see a post from you.

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Simon said:

Thank you for your stellar contribution.

The board is a better place because of your keen insight and commitment to excellence.

I’ll comment specifically then.  Your comments about the O line are absurd.  The single best thing Beane did in the offseason was sing so many O linemen in free agency.  I don’t know how much you watch other teams, but there is a dearth if O line talent available.  By signing these guys he turned a liability last year into a non-liability.  It is not a great O line but it protected its young QB well yesterday.  As for smurfs he gave Allen two veteran WRs that each showed good things yesterday including the game winning throw.  Did you happen to look at Brown’s stats yesterday?  I thought not.

 

I’ll stop there but could continue for a while.  This should be enough to rebut your post.

[wppete]

[Rc2catch]

15 minutes ago, Simon said:

There's a couple of things that are pretty concerning.

One is that I don't think he's done nearly enough to put a support system around Josh Allen that will enable him to reach his potential. When you get your hands on a legitimate blue chip QB prospect like that, your #1 priority instantly becomes surrounding him with the kind of talent that will help him succeed. Instead, after two offseasons of opportunities for Beane, Josh Allen is still standing back there behind what is mostly a patchwork offensive line, without a legitimate starting NFL TE, throwing to a bunch of smurfs with a 3 foot catch radius, all being coached by a guy who might have the worst track record in the entire NFL as an offensive coordinator. That is not a recipe for success and he has to do better.

The other thing that is worrying is the way he's managed the pro personnel aspect of the roster so far. The shotgun approach to FA is not necessarily bad in and of itself. Yeah, you're going to have a bunch of misses, that's just the nature of the beast. But what Beane has brought in here thus far hasn't just been bad, it's been historically bad. That gawdawful mess of signings last year was a failure on an epic scale; you might be hard pressed to find a worse batch of FA additions in the history of this franchise. He has a chance to show improved decision-making this year as it relates to how he manages to his professional roster, but starting the season by cutting the RB with the best combination of talent/experience/versatility in order to save a few bucks does not exactly inspire confidence.

I'm not hoping for him to be fired or anything, but if he doesn't show significant improvement in these two areas his tenure here is going to be neither successful nor sustained.

 

Last years class was kind of a fluke. 

I’m not sure what the issue is, they signed “fillers” 

guys to fill a roster spot for a season. 

They worked on developing younger talent last season and the signings shouldn’t count as missing because they were only expected to help out for a little while. 

Almost all the moves the first two years that catch so much flack on here were either filler signings or locker room guys, or hoping for potential. Low risk high reward if you will. 

They’re building a modern nfl offense and “smurfs” as you like to say are the best receivers in the game now. Shifty fast receivers are the new thing and tall red zone guys are not as high of a priority anymore. They have given Allen plenty of weapons now to run a high powered offense. Can’t ask for much better in year 2 for the kid 

[Trogdor]

I know he is probably rusty, but Mitch didn't impress at all yesterday. Star is a wasted contract imo. We've had pretty good luck with DT and Oliver looks to continue that. Edmunds impressed me the most yesterday. He looked like he took a huge step forward in coverage, physicality, and play recognition. I'd like to see some young guys on the offensive line. Realistically we need a LT (Dawkins was terrible again), Center (injury prone), and RT to solidify the future. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Trogdor

[Simon]

9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I’ll comment specifically then.  Your comments about the O line are absurd.  The single best thing Beane did in the offseason was sing so many O linemen in free agency.  I don’t know how much you watch other teams, but there is a dearth if O line talent available.  By signing these guys he turned a liability last year into a non-liability.  It is not a great O line but it protected its young QB well yesterday.  As for smurfs he gave Allen two veteran WRs that each showed good things yesterday including the game winning throw.  Did you happen to look at Brown’s stats yesterday?  I thought not.

 

I’ll stop there but could continue for a while.  This should be enough to rebut your post.

 

While I don't agree, I do appreciate you at least taking the time.

I consider TE's to be primarily OLinemen, which means in my mind there are 7 positions on the offensive line. Of those 7 positions only two of them are being manned by quality NFL starters. When you have a prospect like Allen on board, you've got to do more than that to protect him.

 

[Capco]

35 minutes ago, Simon said:

That gawdawful mess of signings last year was a failure on an epic scale; you might be hard pressed to find a worse batch of FA additions in the history of this franchise.

 

Hmmm idk.  The Dockery/Walker/etc. FA signings of the 2007 season were probably the worst in recent memory.  

 

And don't forget they had more dead money than anyone else last year and still managed to eek out 6 wins.  That speaks volumes about the non-player components of the organization, imo.  

[Simon]

13 minutes ago, Rc2catch said:

Last years class was kind of a fluke. 

I’m not sure what the issue is, they signed “fillers” 

guys to fill a roster spot for a season. 

They worked on developing younger talent last season and the signings shouldn’t count as missing because they were only expected to help out for a little while. 

Almost all the moves the first two years that catch so much flack on here were either filler signings or locker room guys, or hoping for potential. Low risk high reward if you will. 

They’re building a modern nfl offense and “smurfs” as you like to say are the best receivers in the game now. Shifty fast receivers are the new thing and tall red zone guys are not as high of a priority anymore. They have given Allen plenty of weapons now to run a high powered offense. Can’t ask for much better in year 2 for the kid 

I'm definitely hoping last year's class was a one-off fluke, but until we see better results it's hard to be too hopeful.

And while I actually like John Brown and thinkhe's a legitimate baller, the rest of the guys in that room are a pile of undersized jags who don't necessarily mesh well with Allen's strengths.

 

 

9 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Good post.

 

Preaching to the choir brotha. 

 

 

Egads......

Is it too late to take back everything I said?

[Bill from NYC]

20 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

While I don't agree, I do appreciate you at least taking the time.

I consider TE's to be primarily OLinemen, which means in my mind there are 7 positions on the offensive line. Of those 7 positions only two of them are being manned by quality NFL starters. When you have a prospect like Allen on board, you've got to do more than that to protect him.

 

Hey, GREAT to hear from you Brother!

 

Did you like Cody Ford coming out of Oklahoma? Others balked at this selection but I happened to like it (surprised?). I think that his development will mean a great deal to this team.

[thebandit27]

5 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Hey, GREAT to hear from you Brother!

 

Did you like Cody Ford coming out of Oklahoma? Others balked at this selection but I happened to like it (surprised?). I think that his development will mean a great deal to this team.

 

Right now, Ford needs to be playing RG. He's clearly behind Nsekhe at RT

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

While I don't agree, I do appreciate you at least taking the time.

I consider TE's to be primarily OLinemen, which means in my mind there are 7 positions on the offensive line. Of those 7 positions only two of them are being manned by quality NFL starters. When you have a prospect like Allen on board, you've got to do more than that to protect him.

 

Then you go find them.  Where are they, because every team in the NFL is looking for them.

 

What did they do?  They signed a good C in Morse, they signed two guys with experience in the middle with Long and Feliciano, drafted a young promising lineman in Ford in round 2, brought in Nseke at a tackle who had showed well when given an opportunity.  Brought in a solid veteran blocking TE in Smith.

 

I don't mind warranted criticism, but you're just way off base here.  This is a problem for the entire league, finding quality O linemen, and you make it sound like it's a walk in the park.  I will say again, signing this many O linemen to give Allen more protection and to provide more depth is a highlight of the offseason, not a lowlight.

[AKC]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

starting the season by cutting the RB with the best combination of talent/experience/versatility in order to save a few bucks

 

Alternatively the calculation could have been that #1 having Singletary on the roster was going to limit McCoys touches and #2 they seem to be building some goodwill as a player friendly organization and letting Shady find a spot more ideal for him would be consistent with that reputation. I haven’t seen a single negative thing from him about his time in Buff, leading me to believe Beane managed that very well. Bottom line is money could have been a lesser factor to them. I’m not sure Shady would have been content waiting for the rookie to be limited by injury or performance issues. 

[GG]

4 minutes ago, AKC said:

Alternatively the calculation could have been that #1 having Singletary on the roster was going to limit McCoys touches and #2 they seem to be building some goodwill as a player friendly organization and letting Shady find a spot more ideal for him would be consistent with that reputation. I haven’t seen a single negative thing from him about his time in Buff, leading me to believe Beane managed that very well. Bottom line is money could have been a lesser factor to them. I’m not sure Shady would have been content waiting for the rookie to be limited by injury or performance issues. 

 

Or for Shady to quietly sit on the sidelines for 2+ quarters before touching the ball in the season opener

 

(BTW, is this thread The Dream Team sequel?)

[warrior9]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

While I don't agree, I do appreciate you at least taking the time.

I consider TE's to be primarily OLinemen, which means in my mind there are 7 positions on the offensive line. Of those 7 positions only two of them are being manned by quality NFL starters. When you have a prospect like Allen on board, you've got to do more than that to protect him.

 

If we're going to consider TE's O-linemen... 2 of singletary's runs were sprung because of Lee Smith's blocking .

[Bill from NYC]

20 minutes ago, AKC said:

Alternatively the calculation could have been that #1 having Singletary on the roster was going to limit McCoys touches and #2 they seem to be building some goodwill as a player friendly organization and letting Shady find a spot more ideal for him would be consistent with that reputation. I haven’t seen a single negative thing from him about his time in Buff, leading me to believe Beane managed that very well. Bottom line is money could have been a lesser factor to them. I’m not sure Shady would have been content waiting for the rookie to be limited by injury or performance issues. 

Wow, great to see you here! I hope all is well!!!

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Right now, Ford needs to be playing RG. He's clearly behind Nsekhe at RT

OK with me.

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Wow, great to see you here! I hope all is well!!!

OK with me.

 

Me too.  I said back when he was drafted that I felt he could definitely play guard, but hoped he could play tackle.

 

Start him at RG for now; rotate him with Mongo (who doesn't deserve to lose the RG spot) on a per-series basis if you want to, but don't leave him out there at RT where he got beat up yesterday.

[AKC]

2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Wow, great to see you here! I hope all is well!!!

I figure if Simon can get far enough away from the oxygen tank to dust off his PS2 keyboard I can find a little time to chime in! Good to see you here too- KTDog told me you'd had some time down and I'm very happy to know you're on your feet. GG must be the most durable among us- he doesn't seem to get too frustrated with the trollhood and poorly mannered fans personally disparaging our team! Things are great out in my land- far away from the crowds and spending almost every day taking in the wonders of California's Central Coast after 35 years in SoCal. A long strange trip starting in Wellsville way back before our Bills were born!

Edited September 9, 2019 by AKC

[mead107]

I believe it could be the start of great run

[Simon]

6 hours ago, AKC said:

I figure if Simon can get far enough away from the oxygen tank to dust off his PS2 keyboard I can find a little time to chime in! Good to see you here too- KTDog told me you'd had some time down and I'm very happy to know you're on your feet. GG must be the most durable among us- he doesn't seem to get too frustrated with the trollhood and poorly mannered fans personally disparaging our team! Things are great out in my land- far away from the crowds and spending almost every day taking in the wonders of California's Central Coast after 35 years in SoCal. A long strange trip starting in Wellsville way back before our Bills were born!

 

Holy spit, you salty old reprobate. If you've risen from the dead, I may just have to put up my boots and stick around for a while.

Glad to see life is treating you the way you deserve; I imagine it knows better by now than to attempt anything else.

And if Shady is ripping of 1500 yrds from scrimmage while Frank Gore's body is breaking down and the Bills are forcing themselves into nothing but empty sets on 3rd down because a gill-green rookie can't pick up loose rushers, we'll revisit this topic down the road.

Cheers, brother....

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

 

it fits multiple threads ... 

 

 

[eball]

23 hours ago, Simon said:

 

While I don't agree, I do appreciate you at least taking the time.

I consider TE's to be primarily OLinemen, which means in my mind there are 7 positions on the offensive line. Of those 7 positions only two of them are being manned by quality NFL starters. When you have a prospect like Allen on board, you've got to do more than that to protect him.

 

 

Huh?  Which two?  I assume you mean Morse, which is the other one?  I think Dawkins has shown himself to be a legitimate starter.  Spain certainly has.  Ford is a rookie but has tons of potential.  Long, Feliciano, and Nsekhe have all shown starter capability at some point.  If you really consider TE to be an O-lineman then Lee Smith is excellent quality.  Did you watch the tape of Sunday's game to see how well Sweeney and Knox were blocking?  (Hint:  really well)

 

Your overall assessment of Beane is pretty shortsighted in my opinion.  I've opined previously that last year's FAs were not intended to make the Bills great...they were placeholders in what they knew would be a lost season.  Only Lotulelei was expected to be a real part of the rebuild.  This year, what were the Bills' known weaknesses heading into free agency?  The OL and the WRs.  What did Beane do?  Replaced virtually the whole OL and brought in two new starters at WR.  How can a GM target needs any better?  And next season they will have a crap ton of money and are already stockpiling draft picks (because of Beane's ability to get something for nothing).

 

I honestly don't know where the incessant criticism of Beane comes from, judging from where this organization has been and how it looks now.

[Mark80]

On 9/9/2019 at 9:49 AM, ScottLaw said:

Good post.

Preaching to the choir brotha. Most concerning has been their evaluation of the WR position, although John Brown impressed yesterday.

 

Must be the smallest choir in the history of choirs.  He basically preaching to 2 or 3 people here.

[billsfan_34]

I dialed in on Oliver on a handful of plays- lightning quick off the ball, fast hands, high motor- reminds me of Warren Sapp.

[Kelly the Dog]

Simon and AKC?! Welcome to the 90s! 

[AKC]

17 hours ago, Simon said:

Cheers, brother....

 

Although important elements of it are in development, methinks our TE corps may become very good as the season progresses. I will make sure that my Happy Hour set this afternoon includes a Yuengling product!

 

2 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Simon and AKC?! Welcome to the 90s! 

 

You don't go out looking for a job dressed like that, do ya? On a weekday?

[Formerly Allan in MD]

On 9/9/2019 at 9:24 AM, Epstein's Mother said:

 

Because Donohoe and Whaley would have never whiffed on those.

It's something that never ceases to puzzle me.  When Donahoe was GM of the Steelers, year after year he's lose top tier free agents and come up with solid replacements.  With the Bills, he rarely came up with anyone top tier or really solid.

[Kelly the Dog]

5 minutes ago, AKC said:

 

Although important elements of it are in development, methinks our TE corps may become very good as the season progresses. I will make sure that my Happy Hour set this afternoon includes a Yuengling product!

 

 

You don't go out looking for a job dressed like that, do ya? On a weekday?

I never looked for a job 

[John from Riverside]

How is a franchise QB not part of the great foundation?

[Dr. Who]

23 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

How is a franchise QB not part of the great foundation?

Well, either it is a passive aggressive way of being snide about Allen or, more likely, the OP was about building strength in the middle of the O and D line as the proper way to build a team. In that case, qb just doesn't factor in, even if one thinks Allen is the most important piece.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Dr. Who

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

On 9/9/2019 at 12:34 AM, 2ForMacAdoo said:

Excellent observation. Lotulelei is not the extraordinary talent that Edmunds and Oliver are but he also represents another heavy investment up the middle of that D. 

 

...speaking of Star, plenty of negatives here about him being" a bust....waste grossly overpaid, yada yada" etc...first was there a realistic expectation from TBD pundits that he would be a "stat guy" come Monday morning?...what do you see exactly as his defined role and does he meet your expectations?....thanks.........