Mitch Morse in concussion protocol

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Yes, teams are allowed to go after a signing bonus if the player retires. 

The reverse is also true: if the player does not retire, the team is not allowed to go after his signing bonus.

The "injury settlement" Wood reached with the Bills would depend upon the details of his contract, but likely had to do with Wood being released in the 2018 league year but agreeing to forgo any guarantees for injury to his 2018 salary.

Hopefully Morse will recover and play, but if he does not....I guarantee you he won't be retiring, just for the reason above.

 

If he doesn't retire, he'll be expected to play. 

[Punching Bag]

10 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa .... slow your roll, tough guy.  You're talking to ROYALTY, there.

 

One thing you have to learn:  a) nobody, and I mean NOBODY, knows more about football than that guy.  And b) he's untouchable, ya know.  Just ask him.  Runs this place, he does.  It's what football geniuses do, man.  They run stuff.

 

 

 

He is Hindu and is caste-less?  It makes complete sense now.

[Punching Bag]

5 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

He needs Kelso’s helmet.

 

Kelso’s helmet is no longer made and even if Kelso kept and was willing to give it to him I doubt it would fit.  I think one of them is in Hall of Fame.

 

There have been several companies which have made helmets which reportedly help reduce number and severity of concussions but then you run into the NFL rules nazis and NFLPA who object to nearly everything.  

 

Here is old article on one Kelso endorsed.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000345553/article/former-bills-db-mark-kelso-backs-company-developing-helmet-cap

 

And to repeat previous information provided "No, Kelso never had a recognized concussion post wearing the ProCap".  I got that directly from retired Bills trainer Edward Abramoski at a tailgate he attended with my Bills Backers group.

 

Here is another story on helmet maker trying to break into NFL business:

https://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bs-bz-football-helmet-concussions-20180131-story.html

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Him: "Lets not fly off the handle over an injury that will not cause him to miss a game"

 

You: Precedes to fly off the handle   

 

?? for totally missing the point.  Yea you!

Honorable mention for using "precedes" when you mean "proceeds"

 

[The guy has a huge history of concussions causing him to miss large chunks of the season.  If he's to the point where a single practice in pads can concuss him, he could well one hit away from a Kolb, missing the rest of the games]

 

2 hours ago, Doc said:

If he doesn't retire, he'll be expected to play. 

 

If he's not medically cleared, he can't play. 

A team can not force someone to retire just because he isn't medically cleared to play.

Why is this such a challenge to understand here?

 

5 hours ago, fansince88 said:

15 pages and no points made worth reading?

 

What's Your Point?

[Punching Bag]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

  5 hours ago, fansince88 said:

15 pages and no points made worth reading?

 

What's Your Point?

 

None. In fact it makes points be negative.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

24 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

?? for totally missing the point.  Yea you!

Honorable mention for using "precedes" when you mean "proceeds"

 

[The guy has a huge history of concussions causing him to miss large chunks of the season.  If he's to the point where a single practice in pads can concuss him, he could well one hit away from a Kolb, missing the rest of the games]

 

 

If he's not medically cleared, he can't play. 

A team can not force someone to retire just because he isn't medically cleared to play.

Why is this such a challenge to understand here?

 

 

What's Your Point?

My bad, I forgot posting on a message board is an academic exercise requiring exact precision.  Way to be “that guy.”

 

But for real. Most of his concussions are more than a year out. They matter, sure, but after a year the chance of repeat conspicuous dramatically decreases. In any event, the force of the hit doesn’t necessarily equal an increased chance of a conclusion. It is actually a luck of the draw thing in that sense. It is not relevant that it happened after one practice. That does not indicate other equally light hits will later cause concussions. Hence, why this all just so dramatic. 

[Doc]

30 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

If he's not medically cleared, he can't play. 

A team can not force someone to retire just because he isn't medically cleared to play.

Why is this such a challenge to understand here?

 

So if a guy never gets medically cleared and is told he needs to retire?

[NoSaint]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

So if a guy never gets medically cleared and is told he needs to retire?

 

You either cut him, or let him sit on IR

 

just like you can be fired but not forced to retire.

Edited August 1, 2019 by NoSaint

[Doc]

Just now, NoSaint said:

You either cut him, or let him sit on IR

 

Or you reach an injury settlement.

[Happy]

2 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

You either cut him, or let him sit on IR

 

just like you can be fired but not forced to retire.

 

Not a chance they cut him, at least before 2021

[NoSaint]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

Or you reach an injury settlement.

 

Which 5 minutes into his contract and being hurt at a team event would be paying him the guaranteed money. Essentially. 

 

For practical purposes if he was told it’s all done tomorrow he’d sit on IR this year and get cut next and get all his guarantees. 

[fansince88]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What's Your Point?

My point is simple. People are on here arguing about if they should cut a guy that is in step 2 or 3 of the CP on the 1st of August. ANYONE can get a concussion.  He has had 2 I believe. And 16 pages into it now arguing about a point that may be senseless in a day or two. That is all Im saying. 

[Doc]

18 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

Which 5 minutes into his contract and being hurt at a team event would be paying him the guaranteed money. Essentially. 

 

For practical purposes if he was told it’s all done tomorrow he’d sit on IR this year and get cut next and get all his guarantees. 

 

If that were the case, you would never hear about injury settlements.

[LSHMEAB]

12 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

It’s just comical because I remember discussing with somebody just days ago that the minute something even slightly negative happen they’ll be some sharks to the blood so to speak, telling “I told you so”....

 

 

I would say this development is quite a bit worse than "slightly negative." Morse was the top FA acquisition and the gamble of signing him was that his concussion history wouldn't be a major issue going forward.

 

Time will tell if it's a major issue or not; hopefully it's just an overabundance of caution. But another series of concussions or worse yet, a shortened career, would be a huge blow to Beane.

 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

 

 

But for real. Most of his concussions are more than a year out. They matter, sure, but after a year the chance of repeat conspicuous dramatically decreases. 

 

 

Hmmm....link?

[NoSaint]

32 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

If that were the case, you would never hear about injury settlements.

 

Theres also a reason you rarely rarely hear about them.

 

Tell me this doc- suppose you sign a big contract with a team and immediately are catastrophically injured in the act of performing your job duties and will never play again. Why would you forego your guaranteed dollars you just negotiated and signed to protect you in this very situation?

 

Now if Morse was a fringe roster guy that wanted time to latch on with another team and recoup some money while getting some game tape for his next opportunity, and the bills had no intention of paying him all season - both sides have motivation to negotiate a release in exchange for a little less money than the anticipated amount of riding out an IR stint.

 

 

52 minutes ago, fansince88 said:

My point is simple. People are on here arguing about if they should cut a guy that is in step 2 or 3 of the CP on the 1st of August. ANYONE can get a concussion.  He has had 2 I believe. And 16 pages into it now arguing about a point that may be senseless in a day or two. That is all Im saying. 

 

To be fair, I’m just arguing that Doc is being silly, not that I think his career is over.

 

though there are big red flags waving and I do think seeing him play 4 years without further head injury would be mostly luck.

[Doc]

20 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

Theres also a reason you rarely rarely hear about them.

 

Tell me this doc- suppose you sign a big contract with a team and immediately are catastrophically injured in the act of performing your job duties and will never play again. Why would you forego your guaranteed dollars you just negotiated and signed to protect you in this very situation?

 

Now if Morse was a fringe roster guy that wanted time to latch on with another team and recoup some money while getting some game tape for his next opportunity, and the bills had no intention of paying him all season - both sides have motivation to negotiate a release in exchange for a little less money than the anticipated amount of riding out an IR stint.

 

I'm not talking about a guy on season-ending IR: I'm talking about a guy who is being told he needs to retire.  Wood wasn't a fringe player and negotiated an injury settlement when you and Hap are saying that all he had to do was ride out his time on IR.

 

And take Michael Thomas.  He's getting almost $61M guaranteed.  If he had to retire tomorrow, you think he's getting all $61M?

Edited August 2, 2019 by Doc

[fansince88]

21 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

To be fair, I’m just arguing that Doc is being silly, not that I think his career is over.

 

though there are big red flags waving and I do think seeing him play 4 years without further head injury would be mostly luck.

I agree!

[Boatdrinks]

16 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I'm not talking about a guy on season-ending IR: I'm talking about a guy who is being told he needs to retire.  Wood wasn't a fringe player and negotiated an injury settlement when you and Hap are saying that all he had to do was ride out his time on IR.

Riding out his time on IR means being a part of the team and doing ( limited ) work, but includes all team activities. If ( a huge IF right now ) an Eric Wood type scenario were to develop , and Morse was told he would never play for the Bills there would be motivation on both sides to reach an injury settlement. The Bills to pay less money , and for Morse his “ freedom” amongst other things. I believe such a settlement would be a likely end in a case like that. I certainly hope it doesn’t happen. 

Edited August 2, 2019 by Boatdrinks

[Formerly Allan in MD]

4 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

I have a Q: Are you formerly Allan, or formerly in MD?

 

Inquiring minds want to know ?

When I initially started posting I was Allan in MD.  Then something I likely did screwed up my account and I was no longer able to post.  So I decided to post as Formerly Allan in MD.  I haven't changed my given name and remain in Maryland.

[JoPar_v2]

2 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

My bad, I forgot posting on a message board is an academic exercise requiring exact precision.  Way to be “that guy.”

 

But for real. Most of his concussions are more than a year out. They matter, sure, but after a year the chance of repeat conspicuous dramatically decreases. In any event, the force of the hit doesn’t necessarily equal an increased chance of a conclusion. It is actually a luck of the draw thing in that sense. It is not relevant that it happened after one practice. That does not indicate other equally light hits will later cause concussions. Hence, why this all just so dramatic. 

 

Yeah gonna need some citations for these medical claims you are making here chief. 

[NoSaint]

46 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I'm not talking about a guy on season-ending IR: I'm talking about a guy who is being told he needs to retire.  Wood wasn't a fringe player and negotiated an injury settlement when you and Hap are saying that all he had to do was ride out his time on IR.

 

And take Michael Thomas.  He's getting almost $61M guaranteed.  If he had to retire tomorrow, you think he's getting all $61M?

 

Tell me doc, and I’ll use bar napkin math here... you play out your rookie deal and sign your first big contract with $30m fully guaranteed. Who knows, maybe 10 times your career earnings to date. 

 

You show up to camp and for sake of eliminating ambiguity let’s say that during practice you are paralyzed or have a Teddy B style injury but actually face amputation. There’s no question: you aren’t suiting up again.

 

How much of that $30m that you negotiated to be guaranteed for injury are you giving back to the team? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

So if a guy never gets medically cleared and is told he needs to retire?

 

He can't be told "you need to retire" that's the point.  If he's not medically cleared, the team can place him on IR.  If he fails his physical, the team can release him immediately (and take whatever cap impact that is) or negotiate with him about when they will release him (that's what the Bills did with Eric Wood).

 

But you don't get to order a player to retire.  You can't force them to retire.  Retiring is a voluntary thing, which is why players who voluntarily retire may forfeit their amortized signing bonus if the team chooses to go after it.

 

2 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

My bad, I forgot posting on a message board is an academic exercise requiring exact precision.  Way to be “that guy.”

 

But for real. Most of his concussions are more than a year out. They matter, sure, but after a year the chance of repeat conspicuous dramatically decreases. In any event, the force of the hit doesn’t necessarily equal an increased chance of a conclusion. It is actually a luck of the draw thing in that sense. It is not relevant that it happened after one practice. That does not indicate other equally light hits will later cause concussions. Hence, why this all just so dramatic. 

 

These statements do not match what I know about concussions and the impact of repeat concussions.

 

Might you have some references?

 

With respect, I think you're conflating a couple of for-real things.  One is so called "secondary injury syndrome", where a player who has sustained a concussion is more susceptible to injury if not completely healed.  This is the part where the time since the last concussion matters.

But there's a different effect of repeat concussions - repetitive head injury syndrome.  This is where recovery times and propensity for additional concussions become significantly worse in subsequent concussions.  Morse took more than 5 weeks to recover from his concussion in Week 6 last season, which is a significantly longer time and indicative that this is potentially a concern.  There's nothing in this that says after a year all better and "your chance dramatically decreases"

[RocCityRoller]

Injury settlements are kept private, that's why we heard little about E Wood.

 

A concussion protocol is not a 100% lock of a concussion. But if someone has a history they will get kid gloves.

Symptoms of concussion, go to the protocol.

 

From an interesting article:

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/9/18/12940926/nfl-concussion-protocol-explained

"During the offseason this year, the NFL added a measure that would punish teams that failed to properly enforce the concussion protocols. Any violation — either in-game or return-to-participation — could cost a team fines or even the forfeiture of draft picks."

that was 2016, if it has changed I'm sure it is tighter, if not, Buffalo is playing it safe.

 

This is why Paradis seemed the better FA C. Morse is a great C, but has a concussion history. Paradis is a top tier C, but had a physical injury.

 

Buffalo rolled with Morse.

 

If he really is this fragile for concussions, I want him to retire. As much as Josh Allen and Buffalo need a Center to grow with, it's not worth brain injury IMO.

 

If this really is a concussion, and this would be Morse's 4th, an injury settlement should be allowed by the league if they are serious about stopping brain injuries.

 

If it is kid gloves, we should be hopeful, but wary.

Edited August 2, 2019 by RocCityRoller

[Doc]

19 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

Tell me doc, and I’ll use bar napkin math here... you play out your rookie deal and sign your first big contract with $30m fully guaranteed. Who knows, maybe 10 times your career earnings to date. 

 

You show up to camp and for sake of eliminating ambiguity let’s say that during practice you are paralyzed or have a Teddy B style injury but actually face amputation. There’s no question: you aren’t suiting up again.

 

How much of that $30m that you negotiated to be guaranteed for injury are you giving back to the team? 

 

Probably some of it.  We don't often hear about players retiring due to injury after just signing huge contracts.  But again I'll use the example of Eric Wood who negotiated an injury settlement with the Bills.  The settlement obviously paid him less than what he was guaranteed to make. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Probably some of it.  We don't often hear about players retiring due to injury after just signing huge contracts.  But again I'll use the example of Eric Wood who negotiated an injury settlement with the Bills.  The settlement obviously paid him less than what he was guaranteed to make. 

 

I don't think that word "obviously" means what you think it means.

[Peter]

I hope for the best with Morse - both for him and the Bills.

 

Nevertheless, according to PFF, he was the 13th ranked center as I recall, and we made him the highest paid center.

 

We probably overpaid even without his considering his medical history.    Given his medical history before signing and now this, making him the highest paid center in the league when we signed him certainly raises some issues.

[Doc]

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I don't think that word "obviously" means what you think it means.

 

So you think the Bills paid him more than what they had to?

[Captain Murica]

Morse needs to invest in the Kelso helmet

[Augie]

56 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

So you think the Bills paid him more than what they had to?

 

With all due respect, and with no intention of speaking for Hapless, but we just don’t know. Surely (I’m guessing) they didn’t pay him more than they had to. But since it’s not public, and probably never will be, nothing is obvious. I’m guessing the contracts have terms regarding injury and what must be paid in that event. He probably got roughly that amount, but I doubt we ever know for sure. Just my two cents. I generally comes down to what’s in black and white on the contract. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

So you think the Bills paid him more than what they had to?

 

No, but I think what the Bills had to pay him is what they were contractually obligated to pay him.  I don't think he gave money back - he might have agreed to be cut at a time convenient for the Bills so as to allow them to manipulate the cap.

[Boatdrinks]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

No, but I think what the Bills had to pay him is what they were contractually obligated to pay him.  I don't think he gave money back - he might have agreed to be cut at a time convenient for the Bills so as to allow them to manipulate the cap.

Good point. “ settlement” is only indicative of a change in the contract terms. That could be something as simple as changing the date that certain monies are to be received etc. 

[NoSaint]

9 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Probably some of it.  We don't often hear about players retiring due to injury after just signing huge contracts.  But again I'll use the example of Eric Wood who negotiated an injury settlement with the Bills.  The settlement obviously paid him less than what he was guaranteed to make. 

 

As others mention, we have no idea the terms of the EW settlement. Unless there was some factor that would put him at risk of receiving injury guarantees, I do believe he essentially put the full amount in his pocket. 

 

Because why wouldn’t he take what he was entitled to?

 

again, of my hypothetical 30m guaranteed for injury, how much are you bypassing for a football related injury that ends your career doc? You say some, but really how much are you quibbling over here? Do you think the player is returning a few hundred thousand? Or $5-10m?

[Doc]

8 hours ago, Augie said:

With all due respect, and with no intention of speaking for Hapless, but we just don’t know. Surely (I’m guessing) they didn’t pay him more than they had to. But since it’s not public, and probably never will be, nothing is obvious. I’m guessing the contracts have terms regarding injury and what must be paid in that event. He probably got roughly that amount, but I doubt we ever know for sure. Just my two cents. I generally comes down to what’s in black and white on the contract. 

 

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

No, but I think what the Bills had to pay him is what they were contractually obligated to pay him.  I don't think he gave money back - he might have agreed to be cut at a time convenient for the Bills so as to allow them to manipulate the cap.

 

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

As others mention, we have no idea the terms of the EW settlement. Unless there was some factor that would put him at risk of receiving injury guarantees, I do believe he essentially put the full amount in his pocket. 

 

Because why wouldn’t he take what he was entitled to?

 

again, of my hypothetical 30m guaranteed for injury, how much are you bypassing for a football related injury that ends your career doc? You say some, but really how much are you quibbling over here? Do you think the player is returning a few hundred thousand? Or $5-10m?

 

A settlement means the two sides come to an agreement somewhere between what each side was seeking.  If the Bills paid Wood what he was scheduled to make anyway, there's no need for a settlement and they just outright release him.  And again, I think in Wood's case, the fact that he was a Bills lifer, team captain and good player for them made the Bills decide not to go after the remainder of his signing bonus. 

 

I can't say it any other way so we'll just agree to disagree and hope that this doesn't come to pass with Morse.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

[PetermansRedemption]

3 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

Two days removed from the injury and this is still pretty much my philosophy on the subject. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

3 minutes ago, Bills2ref said:

Two days removed from the injury and this is still pretty much my philosophy on the subject. 

 

It's actually been a week since the concussion 

 

I think last Friday was their first day in pads 

Edited August 2, 2019 by ShadyBillsFan

[Hapless Bills Fan]

36 minutes ago, Doc said:

A settlement means the two sides come to an agreement somewhere between what each side was seeking.  If the Bills paid Wood what he was scheduled to make anyway, there's no need for a settlement and they just outright release him.  And again, I think in Wood's case, the fact that he was a Bills lifer, team captain and good player for them made the Bills decide not to go after the remainder of his signing bonus. 

 

I can't say it any other way so we'll just agree to disagree and hope that this doesn't come to pass with Morse.

 

We can agree to hope this doesn't come to pass as far as Morse, but there's really no room for disagreement.  There are facts about how injury settlements work, and the bolded part above represents a misunderstanding of them.

 

Factually, the "injury settlement" is required whether or not the player is paid the full amount due under their contract because under the CBA, teams can NOT release an injured player.  They have to wait until he's recovered, do a physical, then he can be released or keep him on the roster through his contract and pay him.  In Wood's case, the point to be settled may simply have been the timing of when he was released (June 1 vs at the end of his contract, better for Bills cap) and how the money due to him was going to be paid (lump sum vs. throughout the season).  But formally, an injury settlement was needed whether or not his full contract guaranteed monies were paid - it's required any time an injured player who is under contract is released while injured.

 

Factually, the ONLY time a team is allowed to attempt to recover an amortized signing bonus or guaranteed money is when the player voluntarily retires - not when he is injured, medically can not be cleared to play football, and is released by the team.  It's called "guaranteed money" because it's.....you know, actually guaranteed - not because it's money the team can get back if their player becomes permanently disabled while playing and forgos recovering out of the goodness of their little hearts.

 

These are facts.  There is no "agreeing to disagree", except that I agree it's futile to attempt to persuade you to review facts on these matters.    I'm only putting this out there one more time for the benefit of other folks reading this.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Good point. “ settlement” is only indicative of a change in the contract terms. That could be something as simple as changing the date that certain monies are to be received etc. 

 

Exactly.  You get it.  The Bills say "You agree we may release you even though you are injured.   In return, we pay you the guaranteed money you are due as a lump sum rather than making you stick around the facility and get paid every week through the season"  Wood says "As long as I get my money, fine by me, where do I sign?"  That's the injury settlement.

It could have been something different, of course, but if I were a player with a family to care for whose career unexpectedly ended years before my plan while playing my a** off for the team, I sure as shootin' wouldn't take money out of my pocket to give back to the team.  And if the team gives a player guaranteed money, it's...guaranteed, it's not something the team could recover and lets the player have only out of the goodness of their fuzzy warm hearts. 

 

"Guaranteed money" is one of the few places where the team is actually committed to the contracts they sign.

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, Bills2ref said:

Two days removed from the injury and this is still pretty much my philosophy on the subject. 

Last year he missed 5 games because of a concussion. This is hardly something to just casually ignore.