John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[DCbillsfan]

3 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

I read a lot of AFC East forums and there's some...familiarity with certain posters on this board from other forums. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the folks who are in the "Every single move the Bills make is the wrong one" crowd aren't actually Bills fans..

You are probably right.  I know a guy who's an Eagles fan who has "infiltrated" the Patriots fan forum.  

[John from Riverside]

15 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Let's.

 

"The Bills made the foolish mistake of drafting EJ Manuel, which set the franchise back for two years wasting time waiting for him to develop."

This differs from Allen, disregarding the prospect quality, how?

This is what you said:

 

"That said, how the #Bills went about obtaining Allen didn't leave them vulnernable in terms of future draft picks.
The trades were limited to last year. ...

 

As a result, if Allen doesn't pan out -- and there's no indication right now that he won't -- the Bills haven't mortgaged their future in being solely tied to his future. ..."

 

We didn't obtain EJ by leaving us vulnerable in terms of future picks, did we?

 

"which set the franchise back for two years wasting time waiting for him to develop."

 

Seeing as Allen hasn't even played a second season yet, how can we say we aren't "wasting two years waiting for him to develop?"  I don't think we are, but that sounds a lot like counting your chickens before they hatched to me.

 

"If that wasn't bad enough, the Bills then doubled down on their mistake the following year by giving up a first-round draft pick to select Sammy Watkins to prop up a quarterback who wasn't going to succeed, thus mortgaging yet another year, and possibly two, of building the team."

 

What a wonderfully archaic notion, and a symptom of NFL tradition.  Losing a first round pick means you're out of the QB game, always and forever I guess.  The Bills missed out on such wonderful available QBs with #19 of the 2015 draft like Garrett Grayson, Bryce Petty, and Brett Hundley.  Surely drafting those guys with a #1 would have saved us.

 

Or maybe, it's your opinion that the 2014 Bills would have gone 1-15 without Sammy Watkins and we could have grabbed Mariota or Winston.  Those guys have both proven to be the answer at QB, after all.  Those franchises aren't "wasting time" on those two young guys, unsure of whether to walk away or not.  

 

"Add in a few more ill-conceived contracts and a bad coaching hire in Rex, and It's taken six years to finally get out of that hole."

 

Neither of which have to do with "mortgaging the future" or "trading assets up to obtain QBs.  Was Rex hired to save EJ?  Did we resign Dareus and Shady to improve our football team or save EJ's career?  Is this thing on?

 

Like I stated above, the dirty little secret is that mortgaging the future is crap.  The Bills screwed up with EJ when they didn't immediately continue to search for other QB's when he proved he was a dud.  No more, no less. The Rams don't care about their mortgaged future.  The Eagles mortgaged their future to buy a Super Bowl ring.  

 

I'd trade 10 first rounds picks to give Allen the best chance to win a Super Bowl.  This fear-mongering and belief that the absence of risk is the best way forward is nonsense perpetuated by GM's that want to keep their jobs without appearing like they gambled and they lost.  

It sounds to me like you think that EJ Manuel = Josh Allen (by the way if am wrong on that I apologize in advance)

 

These two qbs do not remotely look the same to me.

[BringBackOrton]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

It sounds to me like you think that EJ Manuel = Josh Allen (by the way if am wrong on that I apologize in advance)

 

These two qbs do not remotely look the same to me.

I do not, and that's not the conclusion I am going for.

[John from Riverside]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

I do not, and that's not the conclusion I am going for.

ok...thanks

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BillsfaninSB said:

 

I remember watching the K.C. /Seattle game last year.   Wilson was throwing up these lobs (great location) and the receivers were just bringing them in like they were magnets.  I remember thinking why can’t we have that. 

 

I have that reaction a lot while watching games.  "Dammmit if that were Allen, our guys would never catch that and announcers be saying how inaccurate he is"

 

47 minutes ago, john wawrow said:

Here's a nugget: What if AJ wanted out because he was unhappy he got hurt and wasn't awarded the starting job.

The Bills weren't going to win the opener with either three of the quarterbacks.

The only mistake made, which Beane has fessed up to, is he should've brought in Anderson the minute he traded McCarron.

Lesson learned.

 

Doesn't that simply beg the question, why AJ wasn't given the start?  Of the 3 QB on the roster, he was the one who had actually faced live NFL action and done OK.    The NFL cutting room is littered with pre-season heroes.

 

I guess I don't buy the "only mistake" part - wasn't it a mistake to bring in a rookie into a QB room with only a backup of limited playing experience, new to this system, and a 2nd year guy with a record-setting horrible NFL start?  When they traded TT, I thought sure they were gonna sign one of the more experienced FAs.  When they didn't, I thought "OK, they're gonna go after Anderson".  Me being wrong on both counts doesn't mean they weren't mistaken.

Move on, obviously, but it was and still is most puzzling.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

Look.....qb mistakes were made....they should have done a better job finding a vet to go along with the rookie they were going to draft

 

but

 

It would not made one bit of difference.....because they also had to replace 2 starting linemen and they were not able to do that AND everything has been pointing to THIS offseason when were going to have all that cap space to fill the positions with the correct type of players.....

 

Dont judge them on what they did last year......in a rebiulding year nobody is gonna be happen with the final win loss team final standing.....judge them on what they do THIS year when they were not hamstrung by dead cap.

 

No sale. 

 

Why shouldn't they be judged?  This is the "Not for Long".  Other teams go from 5-11 to 9-7 to 12-4 in the HC 2nd year.
 

Why shouldn't they have been able to replace 2 starting linemen?  They chose to trade their LT when they could have kept him and chosen a different path in the draft, moved Dawkins inside, then spent a bit more on FA linemen.  It's not as if no linemen were out there, or that they didn't know they had to at least replace their center prior to the start of FA.

 

They created all the dead cap by their strategy of moving players, why shouldn't they be accountable for the result?

 

This is an example of the "give them a pass" mentality that frustrates me. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to throw them under the bus - I'm like most everyone else in hoping we're on the right track and the franchise is trending up.  I just don't see why they get a pass for their own decisions, bad as well as good.  They could have chosen to put more of the resources they had into linemen last year and this year, and if they haven't done enough to fix the line that's arguably a poor decision when trying to support a rookie QB.

 

@Shaw66 this is an example of what I mean.

 

[KD in CA]

15 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

One first round draft pick doesn't "mortgage" a year of a franchise. Doesn't help, but it's not like Sammy was a bust here. Guy was a very good rookie and top 5 WR the second half of the 2015 season before injuries derailed him. 

 

The biggest reason for them still stuck in mediocrity was the Pegulas hire of Rex. Just an idiotic hire from people out of their scope.

 

Jury is still out on if they are really are out of the mess, all depends on Allens progression. They could've truly been out of the mess had they not passed on Mahomes for a trade back and a corner. 

 

Guess you've forgotten the Bills spent two first round picks (plus another pick) on Watkins.   And his most notable highlight in the Bills uni?   Getting caught from behind while celebrating too soon.  One of the dumbest Bills draft decisions ever.

 

But love the 'top five WR in this tiny stretch of games!" logic.   Reminds me of the endless cherry-picking, Spiller die-hards.

[The Bills Blog]

19 years covering the team?

 

He's the curse!

 

Maybe his "What do you make of X" questions to every coach and player are more than they seem... ?

Edited May 1, 2019 by Hapless Bills Fan
inappropriate language

[ColoradoBills]

2 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Mostly true I guess.  Wasnt there a period of several years when the Seahawks were going deep into the playoffs, and making/winning Superbowls where they didn't a first round pick like 3 or 4 years in a row because of trades? I think they gave up one of them in the PErcy Harvin trade if I am not mistaken...didn't seem to hurt them too much...

 

Having Russell Wilson during the SB years making Derek Anderson money didn't hurt either.

I can easily see the Seahawks not making the playoffs this year.

Their big run could be over with.

[John from Riverside]

25 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

No sale. 

 

Why shouldn't they be judged?  This is the "Not for Long".  Other teams go from 5-11 to 9-7 to 12-4 in the HC 2nd year.
 

Why shouldn't they have been able to replace 2 starting linemen?  They chose to trade their LT when they could have kept him and chosen a different path in the draft, moved Dawkins inside, then spent a bit more on FA linemen.  It's not as if no linemen were out there, or that they didn't know they had to at least replace their center prior to the start of FA.

 

They created all the dead cap by their strategy of moving players, why shouldn't they be accountable for the result?

 

This is an example of the "give them a pass" mentality that frustrates me. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to throw them under the bus - I'm like most everyone else in hoping we're on the right track and the franchise is trending up.  I just don't see why they get a pass for their own decisions, bad as well as good.  They could have chosen to put more of the resources they had into linemen last year and this year, and if they haven't done enough to fix the line that's arguably a poor decision when trying to support a rookie QB.

 

@Shaw66 this is an example of what I mean.

 

Glenn had injury issues.....they thought they had a drafted player that could slide right in....they used that player to get up for their QB.

 

Then that same team turned around and drafted another OL high again this year.

 

This team over the past 2 years has done what it has actually NEVER done......a full bonafied rebiuld.   We have NEVER seen that from the bills it has been patch patch patch stick your finger in the holes in the boat thinking.......they tried everything else and FINALLY decided to tear the whole damn thing down......all accumulating to this offseason with its 10 draft picks and 90 million in cap space.

 

They deserve the chance to show whether they were right to do so.

[Delete This Account]

1 hour ago, BringBackOrton said:

Let's.

 

"The Bills made the foolish mistake of drafting EJ Manuel, which set the franchise back for two years wasting time waiting for him to develop."

This differs from Allen, disregarding the prospect quality, how?

This is what you said:

 

"That said, how the #Bills went about obtaining Allen didn't leave them vulnernable in terms of future draft picks.
The trades were limited to last year. ...

 

As a result, if Allen doesn't pan out -- and there's no indication right now that he won't -- the Bills haven't mortgaged their future in being solely tied to his future. ..."

 

We didn't obtain EJ by leaving us vulnerable in terms of future picks, did we?

 

"which set the franchise back for two years wasting time waiting for him to develop."

 

Seeing as Allen hasn't even played a second season yet, how can we say we aren't "wasting two years waiting for him to develop?"  I don't think we are, but that sounds a lot like counting your chickens before they hatched to me.

 

"If that wasn't bad enough, the Bills then doubled down on their mistake the following year by giving up a first-round draft pick to select Sammy Watkins to prop up a quarterback who wasn't going to succeed, thus mortgaging yet another year, and possibly two, of building the team."

 

What a wonderfully archaic notion, and a symptom of NFL tradition.  Losing a first round pick means you're out of the QB game, always and forever I guess.  The Bills missed out on such wonderful available QBs with #19 of the 2015 draft like Garrett Grayson, Bryce Petty, and Brett Hundley.  Surely drafting those guys with a #1 would have saved us.

 

Or maybe, it's your opinion that the 2014 Bills would have gone 1-15 without Sammy Watkins and we could have grabbed Mariota or Winston.  Those guys have both proven to be the answer at QB, after all.  Those franchises aren't "wasting time" on those two young guys, unsure of whether to walk away or not.  

 

"Add in a few more ill-conceived contracts and a bad coaching hire in Rex, and It's taken six years to finally get out of that hole."

 

Neither of which have to do with "mortgaging the future" or "trading assets up to obtain QBs.  Was Rex hired to save EJ?  Did we resign Dareus and Shady to improve our football team or save EJ's career?  Is this thing on?

 

Like I stated above, the dirty little secret is that mortgaging the future is crap.  The Bills screwed up with EJ when they didn't immediately continue to search for other QB's when he proved he was a dud.  No more, no less. The Rams don't care about their mortgaged future.  The Eagles mortgaged their future to buy a Super Bowl ring.  

 

I'd trade 10 first rounds picks to give Allen the best chance to win a Super Bowl.  This fear-mongering and belief that the absence of risk is the best way forward is nonsense perpetuated by GM's that want to keep their jobs without appearing like they gambled and they lost.  

 

1: The Bills weren't going to make the playoffs one way or another last year. They knew it. Most discerning Bills fans new it. It was a "wasted year" only because of the decision to go with a very young roster and a patchwork lineup, while getting out from the under the salary cap rock the team inherited.

Thus then puts the onus on Allen to show signs of improving, and from everything I saw from last year, he's ahead of EJ Manuel in that department. He's a better, more athletic quarterback. Not saying he's great or good yet. He's better than Manuel.

 

2. All I'm saying is the selection of EJ Manuel was a bust from the beginning and Nix should never have painted the team into that corner in the first place. By many accounts, Allen's performance last year was better than that of some of the other first-rounders taken.

 

3. You seem hellbent on proving your little notion that things can be turned around swiftly.

How about we provide some examples of that.

 

The St. Louis/LA Rams were world beaters for so long under Jeff Fisher.

The Oakland Raiders have made leaps and bounds under all the people they've had coaching them, plus DEREK CARR!

Cleveland.

 

4. The decision to trade up 5 spots to draft Sammy Watkins was questioned when it happened, and continues to be second-guessed by just about everybody. It was no different than Donahoe, unhappy over losing out on Roethlisberger, to trade back into the first round and draft JP Losman on what was essentially an egotistical whim.

That move set the franchise back for four years.

 

But you clearly have all the answers, and there's nothing I could say to change your mind.

 

So let's leave it with me wishing I could agree with you, but knowing I can't because that would make both of us wrong.

 

jw

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Glenn had injury issues.....they thought they had a drafted player that could slide right in....they used that player to get up for their QB.

 

Then that same teamh turned around and drafted another OL high again this year.

 

This team over the past 2 years has done what it has actually NEVER done......a full bonafied rebiuld.   We have NEVER seen that from the bills it has been patch patch patch stick your finger in the holes in the boat thinking.......they tried everything else and FINALLY decided to tear the whole damn thing down......all accumulating to this offseason with its 10 draft picks and 90 million in cap space.

 

They deserve the chance to show whether they were right to do so.

 

Well, they're getting their chance. 

 

And hopefully this year will prove that they're on the right track.

 

But if it doesn't, what then?  Will it be "Oh, they get a pass for the first 2 years, so they need 2 more years to see how it goes?"  I don't know the right answer.  I'm asking you.

 

 

[Delete This Account]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I have that reaction a lot while watching games.  "Dammmit if that were Allen, our guys would never catch that and announcers be saying how inaccurate he is"

 

 

Doesn't that simply beg the question, why AJ wasn't given the start?  Of the 3 QB on the roster, he was the one who had actually faced live NFL action and done OK.    The NFL cutting room is littered with pre-season heroes.

 

I guess I don't buy the "only mistake" part - wasn't it a mistake to bring in a rookie into a QB room with only a backup of limited playing experience, new to this system, and a 2nd year guy with a record-setting horrible NFL start?  When they traded TT, I thought sure they were gonna sign one of the more experienced FAs.  When they didn't, I thought "OK, they're gonna go after Anderson".  Me being wrong on both counts doesn't mean they weren't mistaken.

Move on, obviously, but it was and still is most puzzling.

 

AJ wasn't exactly wowing a whole bunch of folks in either training camp or preseason before he got hurt.

They did consider going after Anderson and Anderson was open to coming to Buffalo. That ended when Buffalo instead signed McCarron, who was supposed to be the place-holder.

He wasn't. In fact, in retrospect, Barkley did better with the offense than any of them.

 

jw

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, john wawrow said:

So let's leave it with me wishing I could agree with you, but knowing I can't because that would make both of us wrong.

jw

 

"Well," he stated judicially, "start awful early when yu' go to fool with him, or he'll make you feel unpunctual."

 

4 minutes ago, john wawrow said:

AJ wasn't exactly wowing a whole bunch of folks in either training camp or preseason before he got hurt.

They did consider going after Anderson and Anderson was open to coming to Buffalo. That ended when Buffalo instead signed McCarron, who was supposed to be the place-holder.

He wasn't. In fact, in retrospect, Barkley did better with the offense than any of them.

 

Agreed on Barkley.  I agree on AJM not wowing folks, also, my point is just we see pre-season heroes every year.

 

I guess my point would be, I think it was a mistake to not continue with acquiring Anderson as the wiley experienced vet for the room full of youngsters, even with McCarron.  For example, unless I'm mistaken, I believe McCarron had never played in an E-P system. 

 

So I can't agree with you that the only mistake was not to sign Anderson immediately after the McCarron trade.  Perhaps we agree that what's most important is they did learn from their mistake and move on?

[Delete This Account]

38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

No sale. 

 

Why shouldn't they be judged?  This is the "Not for Long".  Other teams go from 5-11 to 9-7 to 12-4 in the HC 2nd year.
 

Why shouldn't they have been able to replace 2 starting linemen?  They chose to trade their LT when they could have kept him and chosen a different path in the draft, moved Dawkins inside, then spent a bit more on FA linemen.  It's not as if no linemen were out there, or that they didn't know they had to at least replace their center prior to the start of FA.

 

They created all the dead cap by their strategy of moving players, why shouldn't they be accountable for the result?

 

This is an example of the "give them a pass" mentality that frustrates me. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to throw them under the bus - I'm like most everyone else in hoping we're on the right track and the franchise is trending up.  I just don't see why they get a pass for their own decisions, bad as well as good.  They could have chosen to put more of the resources they had into linemen last year and this year, and if they haven't done enough to fix the line that's arguably a poor decision when trying to support a rookie QB.

 

@Shaw66 this is an example of what I mean.

 

 

Sonofagun.

Do you live in a vacuum in which every moment fails to follow the next, and nothing is ever connected.

 

They had no cap money to replace Wood and Incognito last year.

And the goal was to get out of cap jail, thus the reason they traded Glenn, in which they actually swapped first-round draft picks, which allowed them the opportunity to move up to draft Josh Allen.

 

They created the dead cap strategy because the players under high-priced contracts weren't performing to the value of those contracts.

 

You don't give them a pass, you judge them on what they did. Sure seems like they accomplished a lot.

 

smfh.

 

jw

 

 

 

 

 

[John from Riverside]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, they're getting their chance. 

 

And hopefully this year will prove that they're on the right track.

 

But if it doesn't, what then?  Will it be "Oh, they get a pass for the first 2 years, so they need 2 more years to see how it goes?"  I don't know the right answer.  I'm asking you.

 

 

No...even the buck stops here with me.....and I have been one of the avid supporters

 

We need results....this year.

[Delete This Account]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

I guess my point would be, I think it was a mistake to not continue with acquiring Anderson as the wiley experienced vet for the room full of youngsters, even with McCarron.  For example, unless I'm mistaken, I believe McCarron had never played in an E-P system. 

 

So I can't agree with you that the only mistake was not to sign Anderson immediately after the McCarron trade.  Perhaps we agree that what's most important is they did learn from their mistake and move on?

 

Again, the thinking in a vacuum thing.

They weren't going to carry four quarterbacks. To do so would've been ludicrous.

Difficult enough to have a fair three-way competition for the starting job, while also making sure Josh Allen gets time to develop. But of course, you want to add a fourth QB in the mix. Why not a fifth?

Who, this side of Jon Gruden, wants to make it six?

 

my gawd.

 

jw

Sorry, is it me, or do people here not follow football?

 

Asking for a friend.

 

?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 minutes ago, john wawrow said:

Sonofagun.

Do you live in a vacuum in which every moment fails to follow the next, and nothing is ever connected.

 

They had no cap money to replace Wood and Incognito last year.

And the goal was to get out of cap jail, thus the reason they traded Glenn, in which they actually swapped first-round draft picks, which allowed them the opportunity to move up to draft Josh Allen.

 

No, I don't live in a vacuum, and I probably spend more time studying contracts and cap and FA and such than is good for me.  I also get up quite early.  ?

They weren't so bereft of cap that they couldn't throw $3.5M at Corey Coleman.  They had a couple FA OL choices that are good players that were feasible to bring in with the cap space they had - and who went on to play well for other teams

 

I also understand the Glenn trade, my point is they had choices to move up that didn't require them to send their starting LT (who started 13 games last year) packing, when they were already in a situation of needing to replace a starting C and were clearly not too happy with Cog before he went whackadoodle. 

 

Look at how much free cap we have this year - surely you aren't going to try to construct an argument that we couldn't have handled keeping Glenn around and still had plenty of cap.

 

 

6 minutes ago, john wawrow said:

 

Again, the thinking in a vacuum thing.

They weren't going to carry four quarterbacks. To do so would've been ludicrous.

Difficult enough to have a fair three-way competition for the starting job, while also making sure Josh Allen gets time to develop. But of course, you want to add a fourth QB in the mix. Why not a fifth?

Who, this side of Jon Gruden, wants to make it six?

 

my gawd.

 

jw

Sorry, is it me, or do people here not follow football?

 

Asking for a friend.

 

?

 

John, please take a breath.  No one including me is say "carry 4 QB".   You cut one or trade one.  I have a candidate.  Do you really want to argue that objectively, Peterman showed enough his rookie season to be untouchable on an NFL roster?  You're creating a strawman here, then entering into the reductio ad absurdum to bolster it by suggesting 5 or 6.

 

Don't.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Orton was a waste of time.  

 

 

[vincec]

2 hours ago, john wawrow said:

 

Here's a nugget: What if AJ wanted out because he was unhappy he got hurt and wasn't awarded the starting job.

The Bills weren't going to win the opener with either three of the quarterbacks.

The only mistake made, which Beane has fessed up to, is he should've brought in Anderson the minute he traded McCarron.

Lesson learned.

 

Move on.

 

jw

I'm not sure how you can seriously argue that going with Peterman as your starting QB and having no backup plan behind him was not a major mistake. They completely botched the most critical position on the field. And bringing in CJ Anderson is not a real backup plan unless your backup plan is to try and get the #1 overall pick.

[Delete This Account]

For what it’s worth, the closest the Bills previously came to ending the drought, and in its early stages, was under Donahue, who followed the same path.

He purged a number of high-prices players and veterans and built through youth before complimenting roster with free agents.

It took him four seasons to get close: 2004.

 

jw

Just now, vincec said:

I'm not sure how you can seriously argue that going with Peterman as your starting QB and having no backup plan behind him was not a major mistake. They completely botched the most critical position on the field. And bringing in CJ Anderson is not a real backup plan unless your backup plan is to try and get the #1 overall pick.

 

they didn’t bring in CJ Anderson.

 

jw

[vincec]

2 minutes ago, john wawrow said:

For what it’s worth, the closest the Bills previously came to ending the drought, and in its early stages, was under Donahue, who followed the same path.

He purged a number of high-prices players and veterans and built through youth before complimenting roster with free agents.

It took him four seasons to get close: 2004.

 

jw

 

they didn’t bring in CJ Anderson.

 

jw

That would have been even worse!

[Delete This Account]

Just now, vincec said:

That would have been even worse!

 

Just now, vincec said:

That would have been even worse!

well you said they did 

[Punching Bag]

5 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

I read a lot of AFC East forums and there's some...familiarity with certain posters on this board from other forums. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the folks who are in the "Every single move the Bills make is the wrong one" crowd aren't actually Bills fans..

 

They are likely anti-fans, they were fans and then discovered it was easier to going along with the bashing and predicting of failures but failed to realize they are no longer fans. Some ARE blatant trolls but have mods as friends and a mod will give you warning points despite same comments being given to non-trolls will not get your points.

[Boca BIlls]

On 4/27/2019 at 6:38 AM, BillyWhiteShows said:

Take this for what you will.  Probably one of the most reliable, informed, and well-connected Bills reporters has great things to say about what Beane and McDermott have done over the past 3 years.

 

 

 

 

I agree with all of this.

[BillsFan4]

Good stuff JW. Thanks for sharing! 

[Phil The Thrill]

On 4/27/2019 at 12:02 PM, Shaw66 said:

That's a really insightful commentary. I hadn't thought about the Allen angle - acquire a legitimate franchise qb prospect without mortgaging the future.  

 

I think Beane is one talented dude.  

 

This thread is very entertaining.  John wins this debate hands down - Beane and McDermott have done a pretty good so far.  Give them credit??????

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, john wawrow said:

 

Is it overstated?

Let's review.

The Bills made the foolish mistake of drafting EJ Manuel, which set the franchise back for two years wasting time waiting for him to develop.

If that wasn't bad enough, the Bills then doubled down on their mistake the following year by giving up a first-round draft pick to select Sammy Watkins to prop up a quarterback who wasn't going to succeed, thus mortgaging yet another year, and possibly two, of building the team.

 

Add in a few more ill-conceived contracts and a bad coaching hire in Rex, and It's taken six years to finally get out of that hole.

 

It's a dirty little secret only if you don't compound one mistake with another and another.

 

And that's what happened.

 

jw

 

 

 

Here's a nugget: What if AJ wanted out because he was unhappy he got hurt and wasn't awarded the starting job.

The Bills weren't going to win the opener with either three of the quarterbacks.

The only mistake made, which Beane has fessed up to, is he should've brought in Anderson the minute he traded McCarron.

Lesson learned.

 

Move on.

 

jw

Overall, this regime has done a terrific job in remaking the roster and rebalancing the cap in relatively short order. It took a lot of fortitude to absorb a bulk cap hit last year in order to become unfettered the next year. Our ability to bring in numerous players to reconstruct this OL from free agency and also from the draft (Ford) was impressive. Any organization that does such a major remake in a short period of time is going to make a lot of tough decisions with not all of them working out. In hindsight, the biggest mistake, if not blunder, was not drafting Mahomes or Watson when we had the opportunity to do so. If either one of those two qbs would have been selected in the prior year then there would have been no need to maneuver to select Josh Allen the next year. We then could have saved some draft picks that could have been used to address other needs instead of using them to get in position to draft our franchise qb the following year.

 

I understand why McDermott was reluctant to draft a qb that Whaley and his scouting department evaluated. McDermott was new to his position and he didn't have his people in place yet. Although I give him and Beane high marks for their work I still believe that not getting a franchise qb that first year was a mistake.  

[gobills1212]

On 4/27/2019 at 6:38 AM, BillyWhiteShows said:

Take this for what you will.  Probably one of the most reliable, informed, and well-connected Bills reporters has great things to say about what Beane and McDermott have done over the past 3 years.

 

 

 

 

Man... i had NO idea you were such a rep point whorse

Edited May 1, 2019 by gobills1212

[BringBackOrton]

2 hours ago, john wawrow said:

 

1: The Bills weren't going to make the playoffs one way or another last year. They knew it. Most discerning Bills fans new it. It was a "wasted year" only because of the decision to go with a very young roster and a patchwork lineup, while getting out from the under the salary cap rock the team inherited.

Thus then puts the onus on Allen to show signs of improving, and from everything I saw from last year, he's ahead of EJ Manuel in that department. He's a better, more athletic quarterback. Not saying he's great or good yet. He's better than Manuel.

 

2. All I'm saying is the selection of EJ Manuel was a bust from the beginning and Nix should never have painted the team into that corner in the first place. By many accounts, Allen's performance last year was better than that of some of the other first-rounders taken.

 

3. You seem hellbent on proving your little notion that things can be turned around swiftly.

How about we provide some examples of that.

 

The St. Louis/LA Rams were world beaters for so long under Jeff Fisher.

The Oakland Raiders have made leaps and bounds under all the people they've had coaching them, plus DEREK CARR!

Cleveland.

 

4. The decision to trade up 5 spots to draft Sammy Watkins was questioned when it happened, and continues to be second-guessed by just about everybody. It was no different than Donahoe, unhappy over losing out on Roethlisberger, to trade back into the first round and draft JP Losman on what was essentially an egotistical whim.

That move set the franchise back for four years.

 

But you clearly have all the answers, and there's nothing I could say to change your mind.

 

So let's leave it with me wishing I could agree with you, but knowing I can't because that would make both of us wrong.

 

jw

 

Dude, you aren't even making sense.

 

1. Completely irrelevant.

 

2.  The corner of what?  Needing to draft a QB in the first because there wasn't one on the roster?  Like uh, Beane and McD did last year?

 

3. Of course they can.  We watched the Eagles go from 10-6 HC fired, new HC, trade up to #2 for QB (mortgaging the future), 7-9 to 13-3 and a Superbowl win.   Are you contending that they shouldn't have traded up for Wentz?  Or does it really not matter?

 

4.  This is where you cross over into outright delusion.  Do you know why?  Because no one second-guesses the Watkins trade anymore because it was 5 freaking years ago.  Everybody cried about "we lost a first round pick," but we've picked in the first round 3 times since then.  Still not sure if we have a QB or not.  So what did it set back, really?  How set back are the Eagles, or the Rams?

 

The Watkins move didn't set back *****.  You think if we didn't do it, we'd draft Petty and be winners.  That's ridiculous.

 

I don't have all the answers, but I know when 2+2 doesn't equal 5.

[JohnC]

56 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

This has been discussed here a million times.... they didn't inherit a salary cap mess.

 

Did they have loads of cap to spend? Absolutely not. But were they buried over the cap? Not even close. In fact after releasing a couple veteran duds they found enough cap space to sign Jordan Poyer and Hyde McDermotts first offseason here while letting Goodwin and Woods walk.

 

The Saints have been salary cap restricted for YEARS. They find a way without gutting their team. 

 

Not saying these guys are no better then the previous guys before them, but they've had their fair share of ***** ups in managing the team and I'll reserve my high praises until they actually start winning games..... considering we've been down this road with the franchise for a couple decades now. 

 

And he failed miserably.?

 

It doesnt, nor should it take four years to turn a franchise around.

What you forget to mention is that the Bills made the playoffs in the first year of McDermott's tenure. That was the first time in a generation in his first year on the job.  Even though the roster was being turned over this team was competitive. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by JohnC
additions

[Reader]

3 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

Dude, you aren't even making sense.

 

1. Completely irrelevant.

 

2.  The corner of what?  Needing to draft a QB in the first because there wasn't one on the roster?  Like uh, Beane and McD did last year?

 

3. Of course they can.  We watched the Eagles go from 10-6 HC fired, new HC, trade up to #2 for QB (mortgaging the future), 7-9 to 13-3 and a Superbowl win.   Are you contending that they shouldn't have traded up for Wentz?  Or does it really not matter?

 

4.  This is where you cross over into outright delusion.  Do you know why?  Because no one second-guesses the Watkins trade anymore because it was 5 freaking years ago.  Everybody cried about "we lost a first round pick," but we've picked in the first round 3 times since then.  Still not sure if we have a QB or not.  So what did it set back, really?  How set back are the Eagles, or the Rams?

 

The Watkins move didn't set back *****.  You think if we didn't do it, we'd draft Petty and be winners.  That's ridiculous.

 

I don't have all the answers, but I know when 2+2 doesn't equal 5.

 

I think what the difference between Whaley/Rex/Marrone vs Beane/McDermott is the hope that with the later, any mistake will be owned and adjusted sooner rather than stories of a pissing contest between a coach during training camp with the GM daring the GM to fire him because the QB is so bad.

 

I think for your point earlier, you are absolutely correct in that the way Whaley handled EJ and Beane with Allen through the draft are practically one and the same. It could be argued that Whaley did a better job as he managed to trade down and acquire two NFL caliber receivers for EJ. Although, I can't remember if that was the year we signed that G from the Rams who was terrible, where our plan was for him to be less terrible.

 

I think it is this draft that JW is saying distinguishes Beane from Whaley as he is building a core of solid players that ideally won't weigh us down if Allen doesn't work out and not sacrificing draft picks in the future. With Whaley we were lucky that Tyrod, an unknown at the time, happened to be more competent than Cassell and EJ. I don't know about you, but I think our current QB group is better though perhaps by not as much as I'd want it to be.

 

I think with Beane's acquisition of free agents who are solid this year, that we could have a system of gaining comp picks starting next free agency and the blueprint seems better for sustained success.

 

Obviously it all depends on Allen. No one will care what we traded for him (same as Wentz and Goff) if he pans out. Otherwise, we'll lament the trade similar to the Cardinals for Rosen or Redskins for RG3.

[Richard Noggin]

On 4/27/2019 at 6:46 AM, BuffaloBill said:

The truth will come from the W-L record but man does Wawrow seem to be right.  

It's also possible to completely separate McBeane's team-building process (pardon my use of the term) from the on-field results; we can evaluate roster decisions independent of how they ultimately pan out. That probably is an unpopular take, but players and teams ultimately succeed and fail for myriad reasons, and management can only make decisions based on the information available at any given time. 

 

I think we can say, right now, that the decisions made in building the roster back up (after a moderate tear-down that can be viewed more than one way), have been well-conceived and well-executed. 

 

I'm pretty sure that's JW's point, and I completely agree. Whether it results in winning football over the short- and longer-terms will be the result of so many factors, many of which are not fully under McBeane's control.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

This thread is very entertaining.  John wins this debate hands down - Beane and McDermott have done a pretty good so far.  Give them credit??????

 

I say this in all sincerity - I hope you're right.  Because what's relevant is whether the choices that Beane and McDermott make put the franchise on the winning track.

Not who's "right" on a message board.

 

And only time will tell.  I think they've done some good things.  I think they've done some questionable things, mostly around supporting their precious high-first-round rookie with vet QB mentorship, a decent OL and skill players.  John seems to be taking the position that their poor little paddi-whacks were just all tied up by the thumbs, they couldn't do a thing else or more, and anyone who questions must just be a dumbass who don't follow football.  Cap, roster and FA geeks can make a pretty clear case well actually, they could have done some things differently.  Whether that hurts us or not, remains to be seen.

 

The bottom line is, if we're winning more than losing next year and competitive/exciting when we lose, no one will GAD.  It'll all be good!

One thing I like is that Beane and McDermott seem willing to ack and correct mistakes, so that part is good.

 

Another thing I like is that we have a respected and knowledgeable media pundit being positive about the team's leadership and direction.  After years of having the local media throw out a warning flag about remaining in "dysfunction junction" even when we fans were trying to be all warm and fuzzy positive, that is refreshing to hear.

[JoPar_v2]

3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

 

 

It doesnt, nor should it take four years to turn a franchise around. 

 

Well, depends on how F’d up the franchise is when you take it over, doesn’t chief? Seems like you’re making false equivalencies just to try to prove your point.

[Delete This Account]

4 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

This has been discussed here a million times.... they didn't inherit a salary cap mess.

 

Did they have loads of cap to spend? Absolutely not. But were they buried over the cap? Not even close. In fact after releasing a couple veteran duds they found enough cap space to sign Jordan Poyer and Hyde McDermotts first offseason here while letting Goodwin and Woods walk.

 

The Saints have been salary cap restricted for YEARS. They find a way without gutting their team. 

 

Not saying these guys are no better then the previous guys before them, but they've had their fair share of ***** ups in managing the team and I'll reserve my high praises until they actually start winning games..... considering we've been down this road with the franchise for a couple decades now. 

 

And he failed miserably.?

 

It doesnt, nor should it take four years to turn a franchise around. 

 

It’s quite evident that you missed the 17-year playoff drought in your “it’s so easy” equation.

Or did I somehow miss that in all your zigging and zagging around my points.

Admit it, this hole you’ve dug is pretty deep.

 

I’ll patiently await your illogical response.

 

jw

[eball]

14 minutes ago, john wawrow said:

 

It’s quite evident that you missed the 17-year playoff drought in your “it’s so easy” equation.

Or did I somehow miss that in all your zigging and zagging around my points.

Admit it, this hole you’ve dug is pretty deep.

 

I’ll patiently await your illogical response.

 

jw

 

jw, don’t waste your time with ScottLaw. He’s one of a number of posters who don’t think it’s relevant to look at how Beane and McD are reshaping the organization, and will only grudgingly give credit when a Lombardi is hoisted by Terry Pegula. And even then, that “happiness” will be accompanied by some criticism that the victory “could have been more convincing.”

 

What we’re basically talking about here is the loss of one year by McD not drafting the QB in 2017. Amazing some are so upset about that. 

[Chandler#81]

7 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

They are likely anti-fans, they were fans and then discovered it was easier to going along with the bashing and predicting of failures but failed to realize they are no longer fans. Some ARE blatant trolls but have mods as friends and a mod will give you warning points despite same comments being given to non-trolls will not get your points.

 

You and the 2 posters who like this post have a combined 19 warnings, with you the lead dog. And that’s just with these monikers, right Phil the ill? 

But I think you make a good point. Screw warning anti-fans. As you clearly represent, Warning obviously does no good.

 The beheadings shall begin at midnight

[Buffalo Barbarian]

On 4/27/2019 at 6:46 AM, BuffaloBill said:

The truth will come from the W-L record but man does Wawrow seem to be right.  I can’t remember an offseason where there has been so much momentum going into the season.  The Bills had a tough year last year but emerged from it with Josh Allen taking steps forward.  With the exception of a true #1 WR on the roster they have addressed gaps and in many cases with more than one potential starter.

 

WR aside, as I think they will get production out of the group they have, the only real question remaining after last season is will special teams improve?  The Bills were flat out awful at ST’s last season.  The flip side of this is that the D returns nearly intact and should only be better with Oliver at the 3T.  This D has the potential to be scary good.

 

Warrow can be negative (usually for good reasons) so getting praise from him is noteworthy.

 

 

On 4/27/2019 at 7:18 AM, Aireskoi said:

There are real football guys running the team now.  

 

I'm all in with Beane and McDermott.

 

 

 

 

 

now about those Sabres

 

(Did we hire a coach yet ? )

 

 

[GimmeSomeProcess]

4 hours ago, john wawrow said:

 

It’s quite evident that you missed the 17-year playoff drought in your “it’s so easy” equation.

Or did I somehow miss that in all your zigging and zagging around my points.

Admit it, this hole you’ve dug is pretty deep.

 

I’ll patiently await your illogical response.

 

jw

JW keep it coming man, love your contributions in here. This stuff is excellent