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Again in 5 minutes of a game I see catches no Bills have made this year


Billsfan1972

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6 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Do you really think that any of EJ's NFL games even came close to Allen's best games that we've seen?   Do you not see Allen's game improving week over week? I do, but sometimes it's 2 steps forward and 1 step back.  Personally, I wasn't big on the Allen pick at first, but I've seen flashes from this kid that I NEVER saw out of EJ Manuel, and that changed my mind, and he's making a lot of progress imho.  

 

 

Carolina - comeback win, almost 300 yards, against the Nfl’s #2 defense

 

beat the defending champs that year

 

left the field with a lead against NE

 

had 250 yards passing and 3 tds against the Jets

 

1) I think EJ was better than he was given credit for

 

2) Allen is a lot closer to EJ than some people want to admit

 

3) I ignore a lot of EJ’s red flags and made excuses for them.  I feel people are doing the same thing with Allen

 

4) and like EJ, I want Allen to be the guy.  I also am sick of all the excuses too.  

 

Winners find solutions.  Losers make excuses.

35 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Jackson looked HORRIBLE in his last bowl game against an SEC team where half his OL was hurt.  His Heisman year, they had legit talent around him. 

 

Watson had high 4 / 5* star talent all over the place at Clemson. Same with Mayfield.  

 

Mahomes played in the air raid Big XII.  I’m a Syracuse fan. We run that offense.  Eric Dungey throws for 300+ per game but he’s not an NFL QB.  

 

Regardless, those guys are all good/great NFL QBs.   Just pointing out the difference between Allen/Wyoming and those dudes situations. 

 

As for Allen, I believe he needs to get better at taking easy yards and develop more touch/accuracy in the short passing game.  That being said, I honestly struggle to see how anyone who actually watches our games, isn’t excited to see Allen with more talent around him next year.  

 

You don’t have to be sold on him being elite, but the guy has improved a lot in a year where most said he should sit and learn due to being the most raw QB in this draft and he’s flashed some serious ability while consistently having to pick up, after being let down by, his offense.  

 

My bigger point is while college success guarantees nothing, you should experience it.  IMO, top 10 picks should have dominate games.  Allen never really had that.  

 

Imo, we are hoping he will be better in the nfl than he was in college.  That seems super risky. 

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4 hours ago, CommonCents said:

Croom is barely any better. He has zero instincts. Yesterday’s fumble was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. 

 

Yeah, there was one poster blaming the coaching staff for that... and I could not let it slide. Sure McD and Daboll call some head-scratchers, but I can just about guarantee there was not a coach on the Bills sideline that was not yelling, "Get the "F" down!" to Croom. 

 

Absolutely no reason to not take what the defense already gave you, give the ball to your team on the 5, and allow someone else to punch it in. The hero stuff is for idiots, especially when anyone playing the game should have been aware that NE had been trying to strip/punch the ball out all game long - like they are coached to do.

 

Get your damn knee, or elbow down and take the yards.

 

Not that it would have changed the end of the game, but it would have made it more bearable to watch to see that long completion turn into something meaningful instead of Croom finding a Billsy way to sna*ch defeat from the jaws of victory on a play - all of us are sick of watching Bills teams that beat themselves.

 

(the bad word filter does not take into account legit context)

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11 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Carolina - comeback win, almost 300 yards, against the Nfl’s #2 defense

 

beat the defending champs that year

 

left the field with a lead against NE

 

had 250 yards passing and 3 tds against the Jets

 

1) I think EJ was better than he was given credit for

 

2) Allen is a lot closer to EJ than some people want to admit

 

3) I ignore a lot of EJ’s red flags and made excuses for them.  I feel people are doing the same thing with Allen

 

4) and like EJ, I want Allen to be the guy.  I also am sick of all the excuses too.  

 

Winners find solutions.  Losers make excuses.

My bigger point is while college success guarantees nothing, you should experience it.  IMO, top 10 picks should have dominate games.  Allen never really had that.  

 

Imo, we are hoping he will be better in the nfl than he was in college.  That seems super risky. 

EJ Manuel wasn't very good. If he was, he would still be playing in the NFL. He's not. Honest question: If you were so wrong in your assessment of EJ Manuel, what makes you believe you are so right in your assessment of Josh Allen?

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3 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

EJ Manuel wasn't very good. If he was, he would still be playing in the NFL. He's not. Honest question: If you were so wrong in your assessment of EJ Manuel, what makes you believe you are so right in your assessment of Josh Allen?

Clearly, the fact Jeff Driskel, Tom Savage, and Nate Peterman are in the nfl clearly proves that.  

 

And even by that silly logic, shouldn’t our highest drafted qb ever not have worse passing numbers across the board than a guy out of the nfl?  

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1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Clearly, the fact Jeff Driskel, Tom Savage, and Nate Peterman are in the nfl clearly proves that.  

I'd say that speaks volumes about EJ Manuel

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Clearly, the fact Jeff Driskel, Tom Savage, and Nate Peterman are in the nfl clearly proves that.  

 

And even by that silly logic, shouldn’t our highest drafted qb ever not have worse passing numbers across the board than a guy out of the nfl?  

You seem a bit obsessed with Josh Allen and EJ Manuel comparisons. They are completely different QBs with different skill sets, different personalities, who played on different teams, with different players around them, under different coaching staffs, and under completely different circumstances. There is no relevance between the two. How well Josh Allen does in comparison to what EJ Manuel did means nothing at all. Talk about silly logic.

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9 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

I'd say that speaks volumes about EJ Manuel

You seem a bit obsessed with Josh Allen and EJ Manuel comparisons. They are completely different QBs with different skill sets, different personalities, who played on different teams, with different players around them, under different coaching staffs, and under completely different circumstances. There is no relevance between the two. How well Josh Allen does in comparison to what EJ Manuel did means nothing at all. Talk about silly logic.

You’re right.  It’s a bad idea to compare the most recent 1st round pick qbs who have very similar size and similar question marks.

 

and you’re right about EJ.  Clearly, Jon Griden has demonstrated what an excellent decision marker he is this year.  

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Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

You’re right.  It’s a bad idea to compare the most recent 1st round pick qbs who have very similar size and similar question marks.

 

and you’re right about EJ.  Clearly, Jon Griden has demonstrated what an excellent decision marker he is this year.  

You are right, it is a bad idea

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2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Because it scares you haha!

Not really. In the grand scheme of things, how much or how little success any given person has playing a game is far down the list of things that scare me. I have no idea how Josh Allen will turn out. He might be the franchise player this team has been searching for or he may end up out of the league in 4-5 years. Only time will tell. What I do know is that it is nonsensical to think you can derive anything meaningful about how successful Josh Allen might be from how his rookie season compares to EJ Manuel's rookie season. 

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2 hours ago, Magox said:

Most rational fans and observers understand that Rome wasnt built in a day.  Beane has had one off season and draft to improve the team and he inherited one of the worst salary cap strapped organizations in the league and now we are one of the best positioned ones.

 

This is the year with 10 draft choices and what will most likely be 100 million in cap space to address the offense.  If this team doesnt look legit by the end of next year then I will agree with you until then any other opinion on the matter I consider to be tremendously uninformed 

 

The team clearly regressed this season. They had a chance to address the WR and Oline. They sort of did. It did not work and has really slowed Allen’s progress. This is not just a salary cap issue. The decision making has been sub par.  Let’s give them one more year as you say. 

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5 hours ago, CommonCents said:

Croom is barely any better. He has zero instincts. Yesterday’s fumble was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. 

that fumble was sheer stupidity. he's all wrapped up.....secure the damn ball!  he made good yardage, and an ok 2nd effort but should have called it quits right there.

squirming and twisting and trying to be a hero....welp...all for nothing.

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5 hours ago, SCBills said:

 

That’s the thing though... was Josh really “bad”

yesterday?   I think he was off, but I don’t know about bad. 

 

When you look back, you realize that if he had even average receiving talent around him, he probably has another 100-150 yards passing and 2 TD’s.   

 

Thats also while asking him to overcome average at best pass pro and zero run blocking from his OL with WR’s that were constantly owned by the Pats physical press coverage.  

 

 

 

Yes he was. And it doesn't make someone any less of a fan for admitting that. 

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5 hours ago, CommonCents said:

Croom is barely any better. He has zero instincts. Yesterday’s fumble was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. 

 

Croom seems more athletic, but that’s not the first time he’s given up the ball trying to get an extra 6 inches. UGH! 

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Josh didn’t have a bad day he played very well and McDermott got outcoached by Belicheck but finally he got a touchdown is still 0-4 against him.  People say this and that about how great McDermott is and was in danger of getting axed in Carolina; Reid already realized he wasn’t going to adjust his 4-3 to anything exotic like June had done.  Which meant no mixtures of 4-4, 4-6, and or 3-6 you can complain about Frazier not adjusting but look at McDermott and honestly tell me with linemen dropping back into pass protection is he riding coat tails again?  I’m for exotic blitzes and keeping the offense honest.  

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12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes he was. And it doesn't make someone any less of a fan for admitting that. 

 

It doesn’t make you any less of a fan, it just makes you wrong.  

 

Bad would imply he was the issue with our offense.  Far from it...

 

 

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2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Carolina - comeback win, almost 300 yards, against the Nfl’s #2 defense

 

beat the defending champs that year

 

left the field with a lead against NE

 

had 250 yards passing and 3 tds against the Jets

 

1) I think EJ was better than he was given credit for

 

2) Allen is a lot closer to EJ than some people want to admit

 

3) I ignore a lot of EJ’s red flags and made excuses for them.  I feel people are doing the same thing with Allen

 

4) and like EJ, I want Allen to be the guy.  I also am sick of all the excuses too.  

 

Winners find solutions.  Losers make excuses.

My bigger point is while college success guarantees nothing, you should experience it.  IMO, top 10 picks should have dominate games.  Allen never really had that.  

 

Imo, we are hoping he will be better in the nfl than he was in college.  That seems super risky. 

But to actually watch those 2 side by side, to me it's not even close.  I feel like this is more about not putting your self out there for Allen like you did for EJ than it is objectively watching Allen.  But that's like, my opinion, man.

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4 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

If Logan Thomas' fingertips extend in the opposite direction of all other human beings and end at his palms, then, yes, it was off his fingertips. If not, it was a ball he should have come down with.

 

Thank you. I tried to come up with a response to that insanity but nothing will beat this. I genuinely don't think some people watch other games. The catch that Croom made last week was one of the top 3 Bills catches this year and for most other offenses it is a standard catch made once or twice a week.

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4 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

See my qualification above. Address the other difficulty and velocity issues. Those are real things that manifested on that play. 

 

Only Bills receivers have this problem. Case in point, Mahomes throws with about as much velocity as Allen and his receivers catch the ball with no issues, including off target throws.

 

Enter former Bills receiver Kelvin Benjamin:

 

 

Yeah the ball has some velocity on it. But there is no question he should make that catch.

 

So no, Benjamin wasn't having trouble catching Josh Allen passes. He actually just sucks. If Zay Jones went to Kansas City he wouldn't suddenly learn to win contested catches. He just sucks. Much like all of our receivers and tight ends. Foster is the only one to show any semblance of consistent catch ability and he is far from being a reliable target at this point.

4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Wilson completed 73% of his passes his last year in college.

 

Yeah, when he transferred to Wisconsin. His first 3 years at NC State he was 54.5%, 59.3%, and 58.4%. He didn't magically become 15% more accurate, he transferred to a better team. That actually proves the point that completion percentage does not equal accuracy. Or are you saying that if he had stayed at NC State his senior year he wouldn't have become an accurate QB?

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3 hours ago, Thriftygamer83 said:

 I’m for exotic blitzes and keeping the offense honest; McDermott is intellectually inferior to Coaches like Lynn, Reich, Belicheck, and Reid.    

 

I’m not sure I’d include Reid in that list.

He picked through our dumpster and pulled out a Kelvin Benjamin.

I bet KC fans are pretty chesty over that move.

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10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Josh played badly yesterday. Other QBs play badly sometimes too. Josh played really well last week. It is possible to think all of the below:

- the offensive talent on this team is sub NFL standard;

- Josh was bad yesterday;

- Josh can be a good Quarterback. 

 

People act as though these are somehow three distinct mutually exclusive positions. 

 

Agree. He is only in the team for his skills in the bedroom. 

I think the real question is

 

If the TWO touchdown passes that should have been caught are actually caught......is Josh still bad yesterday?

 

He had the 2 picks.....but jesus....you see wr's fight for contested balls and win EVERY SUNDAY......but when will it ever happen on the bills.  I see top QBs throw balls up that have to be fought for and expect their receivers to catch them......but that expectation is nill for the bills because our pass catchers are SO BAD

 

Does his mean that Josh had a bad game?

 

Im not saing he had a GOOD game

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10 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I think the real question is

 

If the TWO touchdown passes that should have been caught are actually caught......is Josh still bad yesterday?

 

He had the 2 picks.....but jesus....you see wr's fight for contested balls and win EVERY SUNDAY......but when will it ever happen on the bills.  I see top QBs throw balls up that have to be fought for and expect their receivers to catch them......but that expectation is nill for the bills because our pass catchers are SO BAD

 

Does his mean that Josh had a bad game?

 

Im not saing he had a GOOD game

 

So the throw to Thomas wasn't necessarily a TD but should have been caught and the ball Foster lost in the sun probably would have been a TD had he seen it all the way. But yes, even if they had been caught, I thought he made too many bad decisions and too many off target throws. It doesn't come down to one or two plays for me. It was the overall assessment of his game. 

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2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Only Bills receivers have this problem. Case in point, Mahomes throws with about as much velocity as Allen and his receivers catch the ball with no issues, including off target throws.

 

Enter former Bills receiver Kelvin Benjamin:

 

 

Yeah the ball has some velocity on it. But there is no question he should make that catch.

 

So no, Benjamin wasn't having trouble catching Josh Allen passes. He actually just sucks. If Zay Jones went to Kansas City he wouldn't suddenly learn to win contested catches. He just sucks. Much like all of our receivers and tight ends. Foster is the only one to show any semblance of consistent catch ability and he is far from being a reliable target at this point.

 

Yeah, when he transferred to Wisconsin. His first 3 years at NC State he was 54.5%, 59.3%, and 58.4%. He didn't magically become 15% more accurate, he transferred to a better team. That actually proves the point that completion percentage does not equal accuracy. Or are you saying that if he had stayed at NC State his senior year he wouldn't have become an accurate QB?

If that was Allen throwing that ball to Benjamin, we would have heard about how he should have put the ball out in front of the receiver so he could catch it in stride..

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18 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I think the real question is

 

If the TWO touchdown passes that should have been caught are actually caught......is Josh still bad yesterday?

 

He had the 2 picks.....but jesus....you see wr's fight for contested balls and win EVERY SUNDAY......but when will it ever happen on the bills.  I see top QBs throw balls up that have to be fought for and expect their receivers to catch them......but that expectation is nill for the bills because our pass catchers are SO BAD

 

Does his mean that Josh had a bad game?

 

Im not saing he had a GOOD game

The ball to Foster *couldn’t* have been caught. He couldn’t see it because of the sun. If you can’t see it, you can’t catch it.

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Just now, dave mcbride said:

The ball to Foster *couldn’t* have been caught. He couldn’t see it because of the sun. If you can’t see it, you can’t catch it.

Do you realize how many other pass catcher's make that play?  How many dont make the "in the sun excuse"

 

But even if you took that play out of the equation (it is not josh allen's fault that he put a perfectly thrown ball on a wr that lost it in the sun) there were still several OTHER plays that should have been caught.

 

Get some damn receivers in here that will track a friggen ball and make a contested catch....or better yet actually get separation so Josh can throw them open.

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45 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

If that was Allen throwing that ball to Benjamin, we would have heard about how he should have put the ball out in front of the receiver so he could catch it in stride..

 

Yep I think this is exactly right. We can criticize Allen without pretending he throws the ball too hard for his poor little receivers to make a catch. Some receivers just aren't good and ours happen to be the worst collection in the league. Very few QBs have perfect precision consistently. Most are putting the ball where their receivers can make a play and they're expected to come down with it. Only in Buffalo is a difficult catch expected to be an incompletion or made into an excuse.

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11 hours ago, BillnutinHouston said:

 

What in your view made that a hard catch?

 

The only thing was hard is to watch that ball go through his hands !! 

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10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yep I think this is exactly right. We can criticize Allen without pretending he throws the ball too hard for his poor little receivers to make a catch. Some receivers just aren't good and ours happen to be the worst collection in the league. Very few QBs have perfect precision consistently. Most are putting the ball where their receivers can make a play and they're expected to come down with it. Only in Buffalo is a difficult catch expected to be an incompletion or made into an excuse.

What's maybe worse than our receivers ability to catch the ball is their ability to get open. Collectively, they have to be the worst receiving unit in the league to run routes and adjust their routes to help out the qb. I have been a supporter of Zay but this year it seems that on most plays he is blanketed. His stat sheet is sweetened with end of the game meaningless receptions where the DBs allow him to catch the underneath routes and allow the clock to run out. 

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46 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I have been a supporter of Zay but this year it seems that on most plays he is blanketed. His stat sheet is sweetened with end of the game meaningless receptions where the DBs allow him to catch the underneath routes and allow the clock to run out. 

 

I've given up on Zay. His ceiling is a decent slot receiver and I'm not even sure he'll ever hit his ceiling. More likely he will bounce around the league for a few years as a #4 or #5 option. He has no ability to separate or track the ball and he has weak hands. Usually players that turn out good show something in their first couple years. Like Edmunds has struggled this year, but at least he has flashed elite potential. You can see the talent that made him a 1st round pick. Zay has never flashed anything. I can't remember a single wow play he has ever made, I can however remember a number of simple plays that he turned into incompletions. He cannot catch the ball in tight coverage but he also can't escape tight coverage, so he is basically useless. It's criminal that our top 2 receivers to start the year were Zay and Benjamin. No doubt that whole position group has been mismanaged and McDermott and Beane have to fix it next year.

Edited by HappyDays
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16 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Do you realize how many other pass catcher's make that play?  How many dont make the "in the sun excuse"

 

But even if you took that play out of the equation (it is not josh allen's fault that he put a perfectly thrown ball on a wr that lost it in the sun) there were still several OTHER plays that should have been caught.

 

Get some damn receivers in here that will track a friggen ball and make a contested catch....or better yet actually get separation so Josh can throw them open.

I actually do realize how many other receivers make that play, and it is precisely zero. I have to ask: have you ever played a sport in which the ball gets lost in the sun? I ask that seriously. I suspect you have never tried to make a catch in either baseball or football in which the sun got in your eyes and blinded you. If you had, you would never say something this ignorant. I'm not saying it wasn't a great pass; it was. It is just another example of a lack of attention to detail that plagues the franchise. The route should have been saved for later, when the sun wouldn't be an issue. The announcers were even talking about the players demonstrating concerns about the sun's placement in the sky prior to the game during warmups.

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1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

I actually do realize how many other receivers make that play, and it is precisely zero. I have to ask: have you ever played a sport in which the ball gets lost in the sun? I ask that seriously. I suspect you have never tried to make a catch in either baseball or football in which the sun got in your eyes and blinded you. If you had, you would never say something this ignorant. I'm not saying it wasn't a great pass; it was. It is just another example of a lack of attention to detail that plagues the franchise. The route should have been saved for later, when the sun wouldn't be an issue. The announcers were even talking about the players were showing concerns about the sun's placement in the sky prior to the game during warmups.

Or they could have simply run it on the other side of the field, which was completely blanketed by shadow.  It's amazing how little attention to detail is paid by this franchise, especially after all of the chronic losing.

 

I remember watching Jack Ham's "A Football Life" and him talking about how Chuck Noll told him to change the position of his feet by a few inches and how much of a difference it made in his play.  This team is still making unforgivably dumb mistakes week in and week out, squandering winnable game after winnable game.  If you swap coaching staffs, the BILLS probably beat the Patriots by a similar score.

 

As Bill Parcells said:  "More games are lost than won."  The BILLS last 18 years give example after example of that fact.

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On 12/24/2018 at 7:45 AM, CommonCents said:

Croom is barely any better. He has zero instincts. Yesterday’s fumble was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. 

He is banging the owner's daughter...he is going nowhere...talk about a smart move on his part...

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I think management handled it properly. They tried to get a receiver that was always open and it failed. What's the point in getting a badass receiver if you have no one to throw it to them. Now that it appears we have a real QB, it seems logical that they get some receivers. They now know they need some fast guys that can catch hard thrown balls. 

 

Brett Favre used to have trouble with finding guys that could handle his hard throws. Once they knew, it never seemed to be an issue.

 

Sports science claims Josh Allen has the strongest arm in NFL history, they probably need some specific guys to catch that kinda stuff.

 

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31 minutes ago, Billsfanatixs said:

I think management handled it properly. They tried to get a receiver that was always open and it failed. What's the point in getting a badass receiver if you have no one to throw it to them. Now that it appears we have a real QB, it seems logical that they get some receivers. They now know they need some fast guys that can catch hard thrown balls. 

 

Brett Favre used to have trouble with finding guys that could handle his hard throws. Once they knew, it never seemed to be an issue.

 

Sports science claims Josh Allen has the strongest arm in NFL history, they probably need some specific guys to catch that kinda stuff.

 

Bills have body catchers at WR  More time on the jugs machine catching with their hands away from their body

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On 12/25/2018 at 10:26 AM, dave mcbride said:

I actually do realize how many other receivers make that play, and it is precisely zero. I have to ask: have you ever played a sport in which the ball gets lost in the sun? I ask that seriously. I suspect you have never tried to make a catch in either baseball or football in which the sun got in your eyes and blinded you. If you had, you would never say something this ignorant. I'm not saying it wasn't a great pass; it was. It is just another example of a lack of attention to detail that plagues the franchise. The route should have been saved for later, when the sun wouldn't be an issue. The announcers were even talking about the players demonstrating concerns about the sun's placement in the sky prior to the game during warmups.

 

If they knew about the sun glare in warmups, even more unforgivable that they didn't put a sunvisor on his helmet.  Is it possible we did not possess the equipment to do something that simple?  Eyeblack is also an effective means of reducing glare from the sun.  As others have said, run that play in the shade.  But no, somehow all these simple means of dealing with the sun glare escaped the notice of our (on) crack coaching staff.   

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