Joe B. - I refuse to put the EJ Manuel pick on Doug Whaley

[GreatComeback]

Take this for what it’s worth.  On the most recent episode of the Bills Beat podcast Joe B and Fairburn get a bit into evaluating McDermott and Beane.  The subject of Whaley comes up.

 

Many have debated what Whaley’s role was in selecting EJ.  If you remember he was officially named GM after the 2013 draft, though many speculated he took over for Buddy Nix unofficially before then.  So while Buddy was technically GM when the selection was made, many felt it was Whaley’s call.

 

Joe B isn’t one of them.  He said that he refuses to believe Whaley was involved with the pick.  He thinks EJ was 100% a Buddy Nix move and that Whaley was playing “good soldier” and went along with the pick.  

 

What that doesnt explain is why Whaley overspent to trade for Sammy Watkins the next year.  It seemed as though that was a result of him trying to justify the selection on EJ.  

 

Either way, that’s what Joe B thinks

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

4 minutes ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said:

Take this for what it’s worth.  On the most recent episode of the Bills Beat podcast Joe B and Fairburn get a bit into evaluating McDermott and Beane.  The subject of Whaley comes up.

 

Many have debated what Whaley’s role was in selecting EJ.  If you remember he was officially named GM after the 2013 draft, though many speculated he took over for Buddy Nix unofficially before then.  So while Buddy was technically GM when the selection was made, many felt it was Whaley’s call.

 

Joe B isn’t one of them.  He said that he refuses to believe Whaley was involved with the pick.  He thinks EJ was 100% a Buddy Nix move and that Whaley was playing “good soldier” and went along with the pick.  

 

What that doesnt explain is why Whaley overspent to trade for Sammy Watkins the next year.  It seemed as though that was a result of him trying to justify the selection on EJ.  

 

Either way, that’s what Joe B thinks

..sounds reasonable...finding a franchise QB was to be Buddy's "last hurrah"...ironically Genome Smith was actually their #1 choice......the gang flew down to interview him and work him out...consensus on the plane ride home was, "um...no thanks".....so the "EJ Era" commenced.....

[Augie]

Nix said he would take a QB before he left, and he was leaving. 

[GreatComeback]

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

Nix said he would take a QB before he left, and he was leaving. 

 

The book was pretty much out on QB’s in 2013.  Buddy basically over drafted a QB in the first round who likely had a 3rd-4th round grade.  One of the many things that infuriated me with Nix as GM.  

 

He really painted humsef into a corner by not addressing QB sooner.  Just a terrible GM

Edited October 6, 2018 by FrankReichComeback#14

[Augie]

7 minutes ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said:

 

The book was pretty much out on QB’s in 2013.  Buddy basically over drafted a QB in the first round who likely had a 3rd-4th round grade.  One of the many things that infuriated me with Nix as GM.  

 

He really painted humsef into a corner by not addressing QB sooner.  Just a terrible GM

 

Was he terrible, or was he maybe just sleepy? Gotta get those naps in somehow! Even if you’re at the wheel.....

[GreatComeback]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

Was he terrible, or was he maybe just sleepy? Gotta get those naps in somehow! Even if you’re at the wheel.....

 

Yep....he just kinda seemed like a guy who was not qualified to be a GM.  The results proved that to be correct

[Bad Things]

Joe B is right.  It was Buddy's pick.

 

Not only that, but I think at least half of the "blame" for the Watkins pick can go to ol' Russ.

The entire Whaley GM tenure was very strange.

[BuffaloBill]

There is a big who cares? Moment here.  All of them are gone. 

[GreatComeback]

Just now, BuffaloBill said:

There is a big who cares? Moment here.  All of them are gone. 

 

Of course, but the “who should get blame for EJ” discussion has been debated in the Bills fan base for years

[BuffaloBill]

Just now, FrankReichComeback#14 said:

 

Of course, but the “who should get blame for EJ” discussion has been debated in the Bills fan base for years

 

 

A sad state of affairs. A further indication of how bad the situation in Buffalo has been. 

[YoloinOhio]

6 minutes ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said:

 

Of course, but the “who should get blame for EJ” discussion has been debated in the Bills fan base for years

We’ve moved on to other dumpster fires 

[Iverwig]

I’ve said it for years EJ wasn’t a Whaley pick but at this point it doesn’t matter since Whaley is gone. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

14 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Was he terrible, or was he maybe just sleepy? Gotta get those naps in somehow! Even if you’re at the wheel.....

 

 

....LMAO!......prolly started hibernating mid November when our season was over and got up on draft day at 8:05AM "re-tired" and ready.............

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

It doesn't really matter if Whaley was the one that made the EJ pick in 2013. He went all in on EJ after trading up to draft Sammy. 

[jr1]

just blame Russ

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Yeah it was buddy nix, but Whaley was there so it's his fault

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said:

Take this for what it’s worth.  On the most recent episode of the Bills Beat podcast Joe B and Fairburn get a bit into evaluating McDermott and Beane.  The subject of Whaley comes up.

 

Many have debated what Whaley’s role was in selecting EJ.  If you remember he was officially named GM after the 2013 draft, though many speculated he took over for Buddy Nix unofficially before then.  So while Buddy was technically GM when the selection was made, many felt it was Whaley’s call.

 

Joe B isn’t one of them.  He said that he refuses to believe Whaley was involved with the pick.  He thinks EJ was 100% a Buddy Nix move and that Whaley was playing “good soldier” and went along with the pick.  

 

What that doesnt explain is why Whaley overspent to trade for Sammy Watkins the next year.  It seemed as though that was a result of him trying to justify the selection on EJ.  

 

Either way, that’s what Joe B thinks

 

If you watch the video of the Bills "War Room" during the Sammy trade-up, I have always believed that Russ Brandon had his fingers in that deal somehow.  Whaley was working the phones and looking to Brandon/Overdorf miming the deal with his fingers as though seeking approval.  Afterwards Brandon and Overdorf were just GIDDY, gleeful.  I'm not trying to wash responsibility from Whaley, obviously as GM he needs to shoulder it on his watch.

 

I just think Brandon was involved in pushing for some kind of marketable "splash" or the like. 

 

1 hour ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said:

The book was pretty much out on QB’s in 2013.  Buddy basically over drafted a QB in the first round who likely had a 3rd-4th round grade.  One of the many things that infuriated me with Nix as GM.  

 

He really painted humsef into a corner by not addressing QB sooner.  Just a terrible GM

 

This is exactly correct. 

 

Whether or not EJM was Whaley's pick or not....Buddy painted the Bills into a corner by his inaction on the QB front since he took over as GM in 2011.  Levi Brown in the 7th in 2010 and no one else when we had no one established and the previous shot was Trent Edwards in the 2007 3rd - pfffaw.

 

[Rico]

As always, I look at the bottom line.

Nix owns the drafting of EJ.

Whaley owns keeping him on the roster for 4 years.

[GreatComeback]

50 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If you watch the video of the Bills "War Room" during the Sammy trade-up, I have always believed that Russ Brandon had his fingers in that deal somehow.  Whaley was working the phones and looking to Brandon/Overdorf miming the deal with his fingers as though seeking approval.  Afterwards Brandon and Overdorf were just GIDDY, gleeful.  I'm not trying to wash responsibility from Whaley, obviously as GM he needs to shoulder it on his watch.

 

I just think Brandon was involved in pushing for some kind of marketable "splash" or the like. 

 

 

This is exactly correct. 

 

Whether or not EJM was Whaley's pick or not....Buddy painted the Bills into a corner by his inaction on the QB front since he took over as GM in 2011.  Levi Brown in the 7th in 2010 and no one else when we had no one established and the previous shot was Trent Edwards in the 2007 3rd - pfffaw.

 

 

I can believe this man.  Unfortunately it seemed like Russ was more heavily involved in football decisions through the time when Rex was hired.  I do think he took a step back around 2015  

[BuffaloBillyG]

25 minutes ago, Rico said:

As always, I look at the bottom line.

Nix owns the drafting of EJ.

Whaley owns keeping him on the roster for 4 years.

And wasn't the big rumor that when we we're interviewing people the year Rex was hired that Whaley was supposedly trying to push EJ out there as "the guy"?

 

In any event even if Buddy made the pick with Whaley kicking and screaming in the background, Whaley did zero to improve upon that pick. Just as accountable imo.

[BillsVet]

The Buddy and Doug show avoided drafting a QB for the first 3 off-seasons they were running personnel. And they should have known better than to believe Fitz was long term answer given his how 2011 ended.  Their strategy was drafting and spending big on every other position.

 

The nice thing is the new regime took a QB, but has whiffed on moves or not taken players to support their franchise guy.

 

Team building the Nix/Whaley way doesn't work. Time will tell about the current group, but if they aren't a playoff team next year I'm not sure their strategy is much better than their predecessors. 

[Boca BIlls]

Who the !@#$ cares about a bunch of hasbeen GMs and QBs

[The Wiz]

I have a hard time believing Whaley wasn't hitched to EJ in some sense because of two things:

The Marrone "fire me" incident

EJ playing the last game of the year

 

Whaley even said that his career would depend on him.  I don't doubt he would have had some input and throw that out there to let someone else make the pick for him.

 

It's basically giving someone else your own money and letting them make a bet and dealing with whatever happens.

Edited October 6, 2018 by The Wiz

[BillsSbSoon]

None of the qbs from that draft turned out to be a franchise qb so it is what it is.  We had to take one there or else. I dont really put the shaq lawson pick squarely on whaley either. Imo rex had his hands all over that one

[pimp on da' net]

3 hours ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said:

Take this for what it’s worth.  On the most recent episode of the Bills Beat podcast Joe B and Fairburn get a bit into evaluating McDermott and Beane.  The subject of Whaley comes up.

 

Many have debated what Whaley’s role was in selecting EJ.  If you remember he was officially named GM after the 2013 draft, though many speculated he took over for Buddy Nix unofficially before then.  So while Buddy was technically GM when the selection was made, many felt it was Whaley’s call.

 

Joe B isn’t one of them.  He said that he refuses to believe Whaley was involved with the pick.  He thinks EJ was 100% a Buddy Nix move and that Whaley was playing “good soldier” and went along with the pick.  

 

What that doesnt explain is why Whaley overspent to trade for Sammy Watkins the next year.  It seemed as though that was a result of him trying to justify the selection on EJ.  

 

Either way, that’s what Joe B thinks

I looked at like this, Whaley chose to surround EJ with weapons to succeed and stop with the notion of he wasn't my pick.

 

Whaley's comments after being fired shed light that EJ may not have been his choice...https://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/05/22/doug-whaley-regrets-not-finding-a-franchise-quarterback-for-the-bills/

[Happy]

Sounds like Whaley was GM half the time he was officially the GM.  Too many others had their fingers in the pie.  IMO, Whaley didn’t really get a fair shake here as GM.

[Real McClappy]

We dumped a WR1 and now have to use another 1st on a WR1 for Allen. Zay is supposed to replace Woods which looks like it will not turn out well at this stage, so in addition we need a WR2.

 

Whaley was getting EJ a WR#1 to pair with Woods, Hogan, Goodwin, Spiller and Fred Jackson. Trading up to get Watkins in hindsight was horrible. Everyone knows though at the time Watkins was hands down the best scouted WR of the class. He was giving the rookie QB a chance to turn into something. 

 

It is what it is though.  Whaley was forced EJ, this isn't even debatable or some theory as Nix flat out said it's was his parting gift to Buffalo. Whaley was forced Rex Ryan = end story.

 

I liked Whaley and still do as GM. Guy was a real HC of his choice and a QB away from great things here.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Real McCoy

[Happy]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

If you watch the video of the Bills "War Room" during the Sammy trade-up, I have always believed that Russ Brandon had his fingers in that deal somehow.  Whaley was working the phones and looking to Brandon/Overdorf miming the deal with his fingers as though seeking approval.  Afterwards Brandon and Overdorf were just GIDDY, gleeful.  I'm not trying to wash responsibility from Whaley, obviously as GM he needs to shoulder it on his watch.

 

I just think Brandon was involved in pushing for some kind of marketable "splash" or the like. 

 

Speaking of Overdorf, wasn't he given authority to manage the salary cap and player contracts?  If so, that is who you pin the team unfriendly contracts on, such as those of Dareus and Clay.  I doubt Whaley had final approval of the financial dealings regarding players, and may not have had any input in that; may have been Russ and Overdorf.

 

Russ was probably more involved in football operations back then than most believe.  Interesting that Beane/McD/Pegulas pushed in to the business side of the house and completely away from the football ops.

[TuelTime]

I'm a big believer that EJ was a Whaley pick. There is just too much evidence to believe otherwise.

 

The Marrone and Whaley fight at the same time EJ was benched for Orton. Obviously, Marrone wanted to win and build a resume and he didn't believe he could do that with EJ at the helm. Whaley wanted his pick to pan out, hence the friction between the two.

 

Another bit of damning evidence is the Sammy pick. I fail to see why Whaley would go all in on a wide receiver for a QB he didn't pick in his first year as GM. To top it off, the only QB he drafted was his last year here and with a late round pick. I understand Rex liked Tyrod, but it is still the GM's responsibility to draft and develop potential QBs, which he didn't do because he already had his guy in EJ.

 

Also, why would they let Buddy have the final say on all of these draft picks when he was already on his way out the door? It doesn't make any sense, except from a public relations standpoint. The front office (most likely Russ) was able to pin the draft on Buddy to shield Whaley from the blame of picking a failure of a QB in the first round. This tactic allowed Russ to sell hope (and tickets) to a demoralized fan base, while giving Whaley an extra year to make something happen.

 

That being said, if you look back at Whaley's drafts, they were pretty decent. Most of the earlier round guys are still in the league and producing. If he had taken Mack instead of Sammy, and passed on QB in 2013, the guy would probably still be here.

[bills11]

I think its pretty obvious that whaley did not have the power to take the organization in the direction he wanted..with russ brandons constant meddling in areas he had no buisness being in ..brandon is the one who said " dont let rex leave the building " and basically sold ryan to the pegulas. Brandon for sure had a huge role in the watkins trade up..he was always about making moves that he felt sold tickets. Nonetheless whaley found alot of talent while he was here..he just missed on the most vital position his track record is much better than beanes so far.

[jkeerie]

17 minutes ago, bills11 said:

I think its pretty obvious that whaley did not have the power to take the organization in the direction he wanted..with russ brandons constant meddling in areas he had no buisness being in ..brandon is the one who said " dont let rex leave the building " and basically sold ryan to the pegulas. Brandon for sure had a huge role in the watkins trade up..he was always about making moves that he felt sold tickets. Nonetheless whaley found alot of talent while he was here..he just missed on the most vital position his track record is much better than beanes so far.

Russ really screwed things up.  Wasn't it rumored that Whaley wanted Hue Jackson as HC?  We would have kept Schwartz at DC.  Instead we hired Rex, Schwartz left...and it was all downhill from there.

[bills11]

2 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

Russ really screwed things up.  Wasn't it rumored that Whaley wanted Hue Jackson as HC?  We would have kept Schwartz at DC.  Instead we hired Rex, Schwartz left...and it was all downhill from there.

Yeah whaley wanted hue and he was gonna keep shwartz ...russ and pegulas overruled..whaley and pegulas also wanted watson or mahomes..overruled by mcdermott

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said:

Sounds like Whaley was GM half the time he was officially the GM.  Too many others had their fingers in the pie.  IMO, Whaley didn’t really get a fair shake here as GM.

 

It was a weird power structure. Whaley carries some blame though. That said, given that he wasn’t selecting coaches he sure as hell stocked a lot of talent on the 53 for the number of scheme switches he dealt with.

[Happy]

Just now, NoSaint said:

 

It was a weird power structure. Whaley carries some blame though. That said, given that he wasn’t selecting coaches he sure as hell stocked a lot of talent on the 53 for the number of scheme switches he dealt with.

 

It was a weird power structure with Russ and from the sounds of it, Overdorf too, having input in player selections.

Your second point I'm curious about: "Whaley carries some blame though."  In what way do you mean?  I'm not trying to be argumentative or suggest that Whaley was blameless (his drafting was very mediocre - EJ Manuel aside).  I'm just interested in your take.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

He can refuse all he wants, way too many things point to Whaley being 100% responsible for the EJ pick. Whaley and Russ were a huge  reason for the 17 year playoff drought. He will never be a GM in the NFL again.

[jkeerie]

6 minutes ago, bills11 said:

Yeah whaley wanted hue and he was gonna keep shwartz ...russ and pegulas overruled..whaley and pegulas also wanted watson or mahomes..overruled by mcdermott

Well even though not drafting  Watson or Mahomes looks like an epic failure, at least the Pegulas learned to not meddle and let the guys they hired to run the team make the decisions.  There's a traditional hierarchy here now.

[Thrivefourfive]

All era’s involved are over. It’s like like asking for the Road to El Doraldo. Somebody speak up!

[SoTier]

6 hours ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said:

Take this for what it’s worth.  On the most recent episode of the Bills Beat podcast Joe B and Fairburn get a bit into evaluating McDermott and Beane.  The subject of Whaley comes up.

 

Many have debated what Whaley’s role was in selecting EJ.  If you remember he was officially named GM after the 2013 draft, though many speculated he took over for Buddy Nix unofficially before then.  So while Buddy was technically GM when the selection was made, many felt it was Whaley’s call.

 

Joe B isn’t one of them.  He said that he refuses to believe Whaley was involved with the pick.  He thinks EJ was 100% a Buddy Nix move and that Whaley was playing “good soldier” and went along with the pick.  

 

What that doesnt explain is why Whaley overspent to trade for Sammy Watkins the next year.  It seemed as though that was a result of him trying to justify the selection on EJ.  

 

Either way, that’s what Joe B thinks

 

This isn't hard to figure out.  It's called putting your QB in a position to succeed, which is a tried and true strategy (see LA Rams, KC Chiefs, Philadelphia Eagles, etc).  The Bills drafted WRs Robert Woods (2nd) and Marquise Goodwin (3rd) in 2013, OTs Cyrus Kouandijo (2nd) and Seantrel Henderson (7th) in 2014, and OG John Miller (3rd) in 2015.  He also signed LG Richie Incognito and TE Charles Clay in 2015 as UFAs and traded for LeSean McCoy.  Even though Manuel was a bust, the offensive players Whaley assembled enabled the Bills to field mid-pack offenses with Kyle Orton and Tyrod Taylor at QB until McDermott decided talent on offense was apparently superflous.

Edited October 7, 2018 by SoTier

[Beast]

Buddy drafted EJ, retired, put his overalls on, ate some corn and watched some Hee Haw.

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

Sounds like Whaley was GM half the time he was officially the GM.  Too many others had their fingers in the pie.  IMO, Whaley didn’t really get a fair shake here as GM.

 

That's pretty much been part of the Bills "culture" for decades.  Chuck Knox left because of it.  Bill Polian was fired because he had an issue with Litman, Ralph's son-in-law.  Whaley wasn't really an independent GM as most teams have as I think he was either equal to or subservient to the HC du jour.   Brandon always had his sticky fingers in personnel matters going back to 2006 when he hired Jauron and installed Marv Levy as a figurehead GM.  Probably Overdorf, too.