Joe B. - I refuse to put the EJ Manuel pick on Doug Whaley

[NoSaint]

11 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

It was a weird power structure with Russ and from the sounds of it, Overdorf too, having input in player selections.

Your second point I'm curious about: "Whaley carries some blame though."  In what way do you mean?  I'm not trying to be argumentative or suggest that Whaley was blameless (his drafting was very mediocre - EJ Manuel aside).  I'm just interested in your take.

 

My line of the thought is that if you are in a dysfunctional situation long term, you are likely part of the dysfunction too, right?

 

in Whaley’s case- he was in the organization long term so when he was promoted I see 3 takes:

 

1) he thought it was ok, which isn’t ok.

2) he thought it was not ok and thought he could effect change to secure control over very basic job duties and failed- which he has some ownership over.

3) he thought it was improper but didn’t try to change it- obviously also bad from an executive leader.

 

at some level, part of his job is being able to maintain the power and leadership to effectively manage the team, and for whatever reasons he could not accomplish that.

 

Edited October 7, 2018 by NoSaint

[Scott7975]

Why would he talk about this now?  What does it matter?  EJ is long gone.  Whaley is long gone.  I don't care who selected what.  They were both average GMs.  Good in some areas and really bad at others.  Hopefully our new GM can do a better job.  I couldn't care less about past regimes.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

8 hours ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said:

Take this for what it’s worth.  On the most recent episode of the Bills Beat podcast Joe B and Fairburn get a bit into evaluating McDermott and Beane.  The subject of Whaley comes up.

 

Many have debated what Whaley’s role was in selecting EJ.  If you remember he was officially named GM after the 2013 draft, though many speculated he took over for Buddy Nix unofficially before then.  So while Buddy was technically GM when the selection was made, many felt it was Whaley’s call.

 

Joe B isn’t one of them.  He said that he refuses to believe Whaley was involved with the pick.  He thinks EJ was 100% a Buddy Nix move and that Whaley was playing “good soldier” and went along with the pick.  

 

What that doesnt explain is why Whaley overspent to trade for Sammy Watkins the next year.  It seemed as though that was a result of him trying to justify the selection on EJ.  

 

Either way, that’s what Joe B thinks

Not to mention it sure seemed like Whaley did everything possible throughout his tenure to keep/justify EJ in a Bills uni until the bitter end...just for giggles, here’s some fun EJ trivia you may or may not have known: 1st nfl Qb to have lost a game in 3 different countries—U.S., Canada, U.K. Only to break his own record of futility by becoming the 1st nfl Qb to have lost a game in 4 different countries—add Mexico to the above.

[Buftex]

4 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

Sounds like Whaley was GM half the time he was officially the GM.  Too many others had their fingers in the pie.  IMO, Whaley didn’t really get a fair shake here as GM.

Once Rex get hired, Rex was  the GM.

[The Process]

15 hours ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said:

 

Of course, but the “who should get blame for EJ” discussion has been debated in the Bills fan base for years

Any discussion of blame for EJ after he left the team was and is a waste of time. Oops just wasted some time typing this.

[2003Contenders]

Well, there is ample evidence to substantiate the claim that EJ was a Buddy pick.

 

1. It was in keeping with Buddy's philosophy that the team would take -- even if it meant reaching -- the player they liked best at the position they most wanted to fill. This was best exemplified in Nix's first draft as GM. Recall that new Head Coach Chan Gailey reportedly wanted a "June Bug" type RB for his offense. So what did Buddy do? He takes CJ Spiller, viewed by many at the time as a luxury pick with a top 10 selection. Chan had also made the random decision to shift to a 3-4 defense, even though the personnel did not fit. So what does Nix do? After missing out on a bona fide NT option in the first round, he panics and reaches badly for T. Troupe in the 2nd. And that was with many other quality player (like Gronk) still on the draft board.

 

2. We have the recorded prank call where the prank caller pretends to be the Tampa Bay GM. In that call, Nix admits that he is planning on drafting a QB -- but also acknowledges that the QB class was so weak that it was not the year to do that. Even in answering questions from the press he keeps saying that even though the QB class is projected to be weak, history has shown that 1-2 franchise QBs come out of every class. On draft day, the team trades down from 8 to 16 and eventually takes EJ with that 16th pick. If they really loved him, there is no way they would have risked losing out on him by trading down to the middle of round.

 

I never thought that trading up for Sammy proved any kind of justification for the EJ pick. Rather, the team was trying to upgrade the young QB's supporting cast, which is only common sense. I would expect the Bills F/O to do the same next season, even if Beane/McD were no longer in the picture. Also, as others have suggested, the trade come very well have been a "splash" marketing move forced by Russ.

[Mr. WEO]

Whaley's entire existence as Buffalo GM was based on him allowing others to blame his errors on others.

 

He had plenty of help here and now even a goofball like Joe B still is carrying the Whaley water.   It's fascinating and bizarre.

 

Regardless,  natural selection had its way in the end....

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

11 hours ago, bills11 said:

Yeah whaley wanted hue and he was gonna keep shwartz ...russ and pegulas overruled..whaley and pegulas also wanted watson or mahomes..overruled by mcdermott

 

...classic "too many cooks stirring the pot".........Schwartz had his doubts when Pegula contacted Polian as a potential czar.....Schwartz said in inner circles, "if that happens, I'll just retire....plenty of money to live on (still had $13 mil coming from Lions)."........Brandon (Director of Internal Affairs) swindled Pegula into hiring TrainWrecks for marketing/tix sales, a move that set this club back two years....and now we have McDermott with too much power (McBeane reports to HIM??)........

[oldmanfan]

The EJ pick was Nix.  This has been battered about for years.   Nix picked him.

[BringBackOrton]

18 hours ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said:

Take this for what it’s worth.  On the most recent episode of the Bills Beat podcast Joe B and Fairburn get a bit into evaluating McDermott and Beane.  The subject of Whaley comes up.

 

Many have debated what Whaley’s role was in selecting EJ.  If you remember he was officially named GM after the 2013 draft, though many speculated he took over for Buddy Nix unofficially before then.  So while Buddy was technically GM when the selection was made, many felt it was Whaley’s call.

 

Joe B isn’t one of them.  He said that he refuses to believe Whaley was involved with the pick.  He thinks EJ was 100% a Buddy Nix move and that Whaley was playing “good soldier” and went along with the pick.  

 

What that doesnt explain is why Whaley overspent to trade for Sammy Watkins the next year.  It seemed as though that was a result of him trying to justify the selection on EJ.  

 

Either way, that’s what Joe B thinks

 

18 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

..sounds reasonable...finding a franchise QB was to be Buddy's "last hurrah"...ironically Genome Smith was actually their #1 choice......the gang flew down to interview him and work him out...consensus on the plane ride home was, "um...no thanks".....so the "EJ Era" commenced.....

 

17 hours ago, Augie said:

Nix said he would take a QB before he left, and he was leaving. 

 

17 hours ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said:

 

The book was pretty much out on QB’s in 2013.  Buddy basically over drafted a QB in the first round who likely had a 3rd-4th round grade.  One of the many things that infuriated me with Nix as GM.  

 

He really painted humsef into a corner by not addressing QB sooner.  Just a terrible GM

 

17 hours ago, Bad Things said:

Joe B is right.  It was Buddy's pick.

 

Not only that, but I think at least half of the "blame" for the Watkins pick can go to ol' Russ.

The entire Whaley GM tenure was very strange.

 

17 hours ago, Iverwig said:

I’ve said it for years EJ wasn’t a Whaley pick but at this point it doesn’t matter since Whaley is gone. 

 

16 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

Yeah it was buddy nix, but Whaley was there so it's his fault

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

The EJ pick was Nix.  This has been battered about for years.   Nix picked him.

WRONG!

 

 

[Another Fan]

Never really fully understood the power structure that went on and probably still won’t.  More concerned about the franchise possibly ruining Allen at this point 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

23 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WRONG!

 

 

Want me to share Buddy's quotes saying EJ was his pick?

[T master]

18 hours ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said:

 

 

What that doesnt explain is why Whaley overspent to trade for Sammy Watkins the next year.  It seemed as though that was a result of him trying to justify the selection on EJ.  

 

Either way, that’s what Joe B thinks

 

 

Especially when KB was in that next draft & that was one of EJ's go to guys at FSU when he was drafted & it would have been great to get a second year QB some one he felt comfortable with to help his development but no lets mortgage the future on a WR while there are other great players on the board ???

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

I’ve never understoood why the Watkins and EJ picks have to be connected in the eyes of so many fans. Franchise QB or not Watkins should have been a great player for us. He just happened to be a bust. Look at the great numbers Hopkins put up even before Watson arrived. He put those numbers up with bad QBs. Watkins should have been able to do the same but he just ended up being a bust for us.

 

 

[blacklabel]

I kinda always felt Whaley took some unfair blame for things that weren't 100% his call. The more I learn about his tenure here the more I wonder a couple of things, one, was the dude just like, a puppet GM with other guys like Brandon actually calling the shots? Or two, was he urged to move the team in certain directions? Three, did he just allow himself to get stepped in and outranked? Because him and Marrone didn't get along, and then I'm fairly certain that Rex was not his first choice but wound up stuck with him anyway. Was he never able to assert himself? Or was it too much of what Joe B said with the "good soldier" stuff? Definitely seemed like the trainwreck was really off the rails during his time. 

[Real McClappy]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Want me to share Buddy's quotes saying EJ was his pick?

He also missed the video title "Assistant GM".

[May Day 10]

Past history.  Does not matter

 

The bills did intentionally make an art form of muddying up accountability for this reason

[SoTier]

15 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

My line of the thought is that if you are in a dysfunctional situation long term, you are likely part of the dysfunction too, right?

 

in Whaley’s case- he was in the organization long term so when he was promoted I see 3 takes:

 

1) he thought it was ok, which isn’t ok.

2) he thought it was not ok and thought he could effect change to secure control over very basic job duties and failed- which he has some ownership over.

3) he thought it was improper but didn’t try to change it- obviously also bad from an executive leader.

 

at some level, part of his job is being able to maintain the power and leadership to effectively manage the team, and for whatever reasons he could not accomplish that.

 

 

IIRC, Whaley and Brandon were pals going back to their college days or something like that, which is probably why he was originally hired to assist Gailey.  I think Whaley was on board with Brandon's "money ball" philosophy, and accepted the Bills weird organizational structure where the GM was pretty much subservient to the HC as well being dictated to by FO bean-counters.