Do you want Josh Allen to start week 1? (After pre-season wk 3 performance)

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

I voted yes, imo he gives us the best chance to win but I think he'll get killed behind that OL in the process.

[Perry Turtle]

32 minutes ago, bdutton said:

 

As someone had posted earlier, Peterman has posted top 10 stats in every category this preseason including a good start against Carolina and stepping in when Allen was forced out.  Also has a much faster release than Allen and thats why there were less sacks when he was in.  You absolutely need that faster release with this OL.  

 

Until they fix the OL, Allen should watch, learn and work on his anticipation and release.

 

At this point, with that OL, Peterman gives us the best chance to win now.

The only way that Allen can work on his anticipation and release is by practicing and  playing with the starters.

 

Soon as the season starts, Allen's learning time greatly decreases.  There is very little focus on learning and fundamentals during the season.  The entire team will be focused on preparing for the next opponent. 

 

The best way for Allen to learn is to play.

 

 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

I voted start Josh Allen. Everyone’s saying we’re going to lose the first four. Start the rookie. Somehow believing Peterman is going to turn into Brady is sad Buffalo thinking. I’d rather lose with Allen. He will get a whole season under his belt and we will be more prepared for next season. Stop settling bills fans. 

No one, and I mean no one, here except for you has equated Brady and Peterman.

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, jrober38 said:

Nope.

 

Yesterday showed he's still a project who has a lot to learn. 

I voted no and frankly it has nothing to do with the fact that he has a lot to learn.....

 

Im fine with him learning it under center......but not getting dumped on his head in 1.5 seconds on every play.......

 

Let Peterman take the lumps while this OL gets its act together.....Allen's time will come

[quinnearlysghost88]

8 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I disagree because Peterman's game -- quick-release and tempo/rhythm -- is the best antidote to a truly atrocious line. He really should be starting in the first game. Allen's game -- and why the Bills drafted him so high -- relies on longer-developing plays, and is the sort that will get him killed early and often behind the current set of turnstiles. Also, do not underestimate the impact of the fans turning on him assuming he really struggles. You know fans: when he struggles (and he assuredly will with this line and this group of bad receivers), many will turn on him, and they'll be very loud. That's as predictable as the rooster crowing at dawn. Bills fans are like that too.  It'll create a bad scene for the long term, with the coaches always defending him to the press, and the national media (which predicted he'd fail) circling like vultures. It won't be good for his career. 

Last week it was petermans ball is slow and this week he has a quick release. We do this every. Single. Year. Back and forth. Calling for the back up then calling for the third stringer then wanting the starter back in. Just put the rookie out there. Josh had to develop short routes anyways.  We’re delaying the inevitable. 

6 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

No one, and I mean no one, here except for you has equated Brady and Peterman.

Let me back off that then. People think he’s going to win us a significant number of games. Always holding hope that we somehow have a different qb. It’s nathan Peterman. We’re the laughing stock of the nfl. 

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

Last week it was petermans ball is slow and this week he has a quick release. We do this every. Single. Year. Back and forth. Calling for the back up then calling for the third stringer then wanting the starter back in. Just put the rookie out there. Josh had to develop short routes anyways.  We’re delaying the inevitable. 

Let me back off that then. People think he’s going to win us a significant number of games. Always holding hope that we somehow have a different qb. It’s nathan Peterman. We’re the laughing stock of the nfl. 

Peterman gives us a better chance than Allen, given the state of the O line.  Allen is the future and will be the guy for years to come. 

Spare me the laughing stock stuff.  Last year at this time it was all doom and gloom and we made the playoffs.

[bdutton]

3 minutes ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

Last week it was petermans ball is slow and this week he has a quick release. We do this every. Single. Year. Back and forth. Calling for the back up then calling for the third stringer then wanting the starter back in. Just put the rookie out there. Josh had to develop short routes anyways.  We’re delaying the inevitable. 

 

Peterman has the quicker release which means the ball is out of his hands before he gets his ass handed to him.

 

Peterman's ball speed is what is being called slow.

 

These are two totally different points of fact.

[Gugny]

5 minutes ago, bdutton said:

Peterman has the quicker release which means the ball is out of his hands before he gets his ass handed to him.

 

 

Perhaps this hot potato style of play is why he threw 5 picks vs. SD last year.  The protection is going to be the same.

[dave mcbride]

14 minutes ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

Last week it was petermans ball is slow and this week he has a quick release. We do this every. Single. Year. Back and forth. Calling for the back up then calling for the third stringer then wanting the starter back in. Just put the rookie out there. Josh had to develop short routes anyways.  We’re delaying the inevitable. 

Let me back off that then. People think he’s going to win us a significant number of games. Always holding hope that we somehow have a different qb. It’s nathan Peterman. We’re the laughing stock of the nfl. 

Delaying the inevitable is not a bad approach, and many good organizations subscribe to it. And Peterman undeniably gets rid of the ball a LOT faster than Allen. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by dave mcbride

[Fan in Chicago]

IMO, here is what should happen:

- fire Castillo

- Start Teller at LG

- Feature a run-heavy game. Use Murphy a lot

- tell the WRs to fight for every ball

- Start Peterman and give him a very conservative game plan and a short leash

- protect the ball at the expense of big plays

- If IntercePeterman shows up for two consecutive games, give him the hook and don't look back ever again

 

 

[One Buffalo]

I am torn... I voted no, then I changed to yes, and I think I will stick with that.  Here's the thing about what happened yesterday... have we forgotten how Nate handled relentless pressure?  Our line is bad.. yes that's true, but yesterday was worse because of the intentional cycling of players at positions that they aren't normally in.  In some cases Allen had 1 sec before he was hit.  No one can perform under that kind of failure to protect.  A part of me is wondering if the coaches did this to see how he would respond to adverse conditions.  Other than the one throw that should have been intercepted, he didn't make many mistakes.  I believe with Shady on the field, and a stable (albeit poor) O-line, I say start Allen.  

[cudi]

Just let him sit and wait his turn to take a shot it shouldn't take long I'd say by the time we roll out of September Nate or AJ will be on the IR and the other will be going through concussion protocol so he'll get his shot.

[quinnearlysghost88]

24 minutes ago, bdutton said:

Peterman has the quicker release which means the ball is out of his hands before he gets his ass handed to him.

 

Peterman's ball speed is what is being called slow.

 

These are two totally different points of fact.

I’ll concede that. But if his ball remains slow what’s the upside there? He’s getting the ball out quick but throwing it slowly so it’s getting intercepted or one-hopping vs. Allen taking sacks. 

[bdutton]

Just now, quinnearlysghost88 said:

I’ll concede that. But if his ball remains slow what’s the upside there? He’s getting the ball out quick but throwing it slowly so it’s getting intercepted or one-hopping vs. Allen taking sacks. 

80% completion rate.

 

Hard to argue when he's getting the ball to the receiver consistently.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Bills fans swerve all over the road. 

 

At first it was McCarron was the steady veteran to execute McDermott's offense. 

 

Last week it was Allen is playing just as good as anybody, might as well throw him out there. 

 

Now its Peterman has won the job, Allen is going to get killed. 

 

 

Nate Peterman has thrown 6 interceptions in <2 games when the real bullets are flying. 

[Rigotz]

1 hour ago, Perry Turtle said:

Guys like Jim Kelly, John Elway, and Peyton Manning  all played as rookies behind poor offensive lines.  They turned out okay.

 

The nature of the draft places the better QB prospects on bad teams.  If the prospect is a franchise caliber QB, they elevate the play of the bad team in some way.

 

If the prospect is not truly an elite NFL QB, they fall to the level of the bad players on the team.

 

The sooner a coaching staff knows whether they have a QB that elevates the team, the better. 

 

Hiding Allen accomplishes nothing if he is a franchise QB.  

 

As I alluded to in the original post, I think this is the only real debate here.

 

Does putting a QB behind this O-Line with this WR group help or hurt him? I'm of the opinion that bad habits can be created by having bad football around you. QB confidence is also a real thing... I think at this point I feel more comfortable letting Allen sit while we figure out all the other issues with our team and come week 6 or later, when we have an identity, we let him go in there and sling it.

[ndirish1978]

I would like JA to survive to become the QB he can be. Putting him behind this line is just asking for an injury .

[GoBills808]

Put him in and let him take his lumps like Goff and Wentz did their rookie years. This is the pros and if he's going to be the future of this team he needs to be able to handle a little adversity.

[BuffaloHokie13]

yep

[quinnearlysghost88]

29 minutes ago, bdutton said:

80% completion rate.

 

Hard to argue when he's getting the ball to the receiver consistently.

What completion rate are you quoting? Vs the Bengals 3rd stringers? You’re out of your mind. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by quinnearlysghost88

[Boatdrinks]

Getting rid of the ball in a 3, 5 step quick passing game is not the same thing as a “ quick release”. Allen’s release is plenty quick. Why is it assumed that the Bills don’t think Allen can play a quick passing game? The types of passes they’ve called for Allen in the ps appeared to be designed to evaluate his AND the WRs big play potential. Daboll even asked him what kind of routes he wanted called in the CAR game. We know that the quick stuff is the only thing Peterman is capable of. So that’s what he’s been asked to do. Allen hasn’t played , and has a very capable arm. He doesn’t have any established “ game” to be assigned to him. Peterman’s “ game” is assigned to him by his physical limitations. 

   Anyway, the best case to be made for Nate Peterman starting isn’t the style of offense, as I’d suspect they can run that style with Allen as well. Keeping Allen in one piece while they sort out this tire fire of an OL is the case. My bet is the Bills do this, and bring Allen in after the OL has taken on some sort of acceptable form. 

[bdutton]

6 minutes ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

What completion rate are you quoting? Vs the Bengals 3rd stringers? You’re out of your mind. 

C/ATT	YDS	AVG	TD	INT	SACKS	RTG
Nathan Peterman	9/10	119	11.9	1	1	0-0	110.0

 

Against Carolina's starters.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=401030946

[Figster]

1 hour ago, Perry Turtle said:

Guys like Jim Kelly, John Elway, and Peyton Manning  all played as rookies behind poor offensive lines.  They turned out okay.

 

The nature of the draft places the better QB prospects on bad teams.  If the prospect is a franchise caliber QB, they elevate the play of the bad team in some way.

 

If the prospect is not truly an elite NFL QB, they fall to the level of the bad players on the team.

 

The sooner a coaching staff knows whether they have a QB that elevates the team, the better. 

 

Hiding Allen accomplishes nothing if he is a franchise QB.  

Its odd Steve Deberg kept coming in to rescue Elway behind the same Oline and managed a 9 - 7 season.

 

Kelly played pro ball in another league.

 

Bad comparisons IMO.

 

with all due respect sir

 

 

[quinnearlysghost88]

6 minutes ago, bdutton said:

C/ATT	YDS	AVG	TD	INT	SACKS	RTG
Nathan Peterman	9/10	119	11.9	1	1	0-0	110.0

 

Against Carolina's starters.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=401030946

One drive. And the next an INT. It’s Peterman in a nutshell. I’m excited to read a game’s worth of drive recaps that read “short pass left” “short pass right” 

 

7 minutes ago, bdutton said:

C/ATT	YDS	AVG	TD	INT	SACKS	RTG
Nathan Peterman	9/10	119	11.9	1	1	0-0	110.0

 

Against Carolina's starters.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=401030946

 

[Buffaloflash]

2 hours ago, Baba Booey said:

 should just trade McCoy now and get draft pick for him.

PUT the PIPE down!

[bdutton]

4 minutes ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

One drive. And the next an INT. It’s Peterman in a nutshell. I’m excited to read a game’s worth of drive recaps that read “short pass left” “short pass right” 

  

 

1 TD and 1 INT.

 

Second drive was nearing the red zone when the pass from Peterman when through O'Leary's hands.  Not Petermans fault IMO.  That was his only pick in his 3 game appearances with 41 attempts.

 

I am by no means a Peterman boot licker.  I expected AJ to be the starter but through all of the pre-season Peterman has been the best QB both statistically and with his on field presence.  I say Peterman has won the job for now.  Let Allen work on his weaknesses with the number 2's in practice and eventually put him in when ready.

[Buffaloflash]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

No.  He might die.  I’d like our future qb to be breathing going into next season.  Sit him for the first 3 weeks minimum.  I don’t think he’d learn much from playing in those 3 games because he’d probably be concussed

Hahaha,You're probably right, because I thought he was Concussed yesterday after taking that hit that banged his head to the ground!

I almost do-doed on myself!

[Augie]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

I voted yes.

 

None of our QBs has looked good with our first string vs. a first string defense.

 

It seems that most here are in agreement that the starting OL hasn't done any of the QBs any favors.

 

Add a couple key drops in yesterday's game, a scramble for (what appeared to be) a first down that should have been challenged, but was not, and some very questionable play-calling by Dabol - and I can't fault Allen much for yesterday's lack of production.  I'd say two of the sacks were on him - maybe.  Kid had no time.

 

He looked just as good against Cleveland's second string as Peterman looked last night.

 

I feel that if Allen and Peterman are equal, that Allen should get the start because there's no benefit to starting Peterman (he doesn't have much real experience, either).

 

I also feel that Allen and Peterman have both looked better than McCarron.

 

That's why I voted yes.

 

If I had to bet, my money would be on McCarron starting.  I do not think Peterman will start unless the other two are injured.

 

Based upon yesterday, I’d change “unless” to UNTIL. Yikes! 

 

I’m wonder if they sit around the QB room and say “why don’t you go ahead and start.” “Oh no, by all means, YOU go ahead and start, I’ll look after the clipboard until they get that front straightened out.” 

[Gugny]

3 hours ago, Baba Booey said:

Our offensive line is going to get someone killed back there. Dont want it to be our future QB. Run game will suffer too, should just trade McCoy now and get draft pick for him. Castillo should be fired and Vlad should never see the field again.

 

If McCoy gets healthy, they should absolutely trade him.

[Gugny]

This further solidifies my desire to have Allen start:

 

 

[Domdab99]

3 hours ago, ddaryl said:

 

Oh do explain that in full detail.. 

 

everything discussed here is pretty civil and very honest

 

And often unknowledgeable ?

[Green Lightning]

4 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

Actually, I did say that it was definitely possible that he could have improved. Read my post. 

As for the argument that he has improved, I think that he has shown some good things. He has also been inconsistent. Every chance he has had to put the nail in the qb competition he has faltered. 

I think Peterman can be a decent QB in the right situation, but his lack of talent in general is a handicap to this already suffering offense. He is also very mistake prone (Even just looking at this year, and ignoring last) and that is not going to help a bad offense be better. 

We disagree. Time will tell. 

[whatdrought]

4 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

We disagree. Time will tell. 

 

True enough. And I hope that the starter lights it up and that the backup is great and we're set at the position for the next 15 years. 

[Green Lightning]

Just now, whatdrought said:

 

True enough. And I hope that the starter lights it up and that the backup is great and we're set at the position for the next 15 years. 

And we agree!

[ddaryl]

48 minutes ago, Domdab99 said:

 

And often unknowledgeable ?

 

OK I'm listening, please go on

[Rockinon]

Josh has been pretty good through out the preseason. I like a lot of what he has done. But watching Peterman get rid of the ball so quickly was rather surprising. He was finding open receivers more quickly. Josh is doing a great job, but he still needs to polish up his quick hit reads. I think he has made tremendous strides but just isn't quite there yet.  If you would have told me that Peterman would be leading the QB battle at this point a couple of months ago, I probably would have laughed at you. He has been very impressive in all three games so far, though.

 

Sure hope we get our OL straitened out soon. It was down right painful watching JA get blown up before he was even finished dropping back in some cases. Perhaps the OL began to correct some things by the time Peterman came in, but it looked to me like he was also helping himself out by getting the ball out very quickly. Although, it didn't really look like JA was holding the ball that long(That line was terrible), I think he was just a tad slower getting the ball out than NP.

 

I know JA is going to start at some point. I just don't see it happening week 1. I think perhaps Peterman is trusting his receivers to be where they are supposed to be and letting it rip. And maybe Josh isn't quite that far along in the process. At this point I think NP is out in 1st place.

[bdutton]

Best case scenario:

 

O-Line improves and Peterman gets us to another 9-7 season.  Peterman has a good season completing 70% of his passes, 2500 passing yards and a 90-95 passer rating.  Trade Peterman for a high 3rd/low 2nd rounder and start Allen next year.

[Baba Booey]

6 hours ago, Buffaloflash said:

PUT the PIPE down!

I could See if we were a running back away from being a playoff team but we’re not. 

Why not get something for mc coy while he’s still healthy. 

[RocCityRoller]

10 hours ago, Perry Turtle said:

Guys like Jim Kelly, John Elway, and Peyton Manning  all played as rookies behind poor offensive lines.  They turned out okay.

 

The nature of the draft places the better QB prospects on bad teams.  If the prospect is a franchise caliber QB, they elevate the play of the bad team in some way.

 

If the prospect is not truly an elite NFL QB, they fall to the level of the bad players on the team.

 

The sooner a coaching staff knows whether they have a QB that elevates the team, the better. 

 

Hiding Allen accomplishes nothing if he is a franchise QB.  

 

I can't speak for Elway or Manning, but Jim Kelly came in in 1986 and immediately played behind Kent Hull (C), Jim Richter (G), Tim Vogler (G), Will Wolford (T) and Joe Devlin (T). He had the same line in 1987 when Ballard and Ferrotte were backups.... He also was not a rookie after many seasons in the USFL.

 

That line might as well be the Electric Company compared to this OL. Wolford and Hull are among the best OL in Bills history. Richter, Devlin and Vogler were no bums either.

 

BTW Kelly also had Andre Reed, Jerry Butler, Chris Burkett and Pete Metzelaars to throw to from day one. Compare to Benjamin, Coleman, Kerley and Clay.

 

Comparing the situation Allen is facing vs Kelly is laughable.

 

Despite the OL, WR talent etc, the '86 Bills were 4-12. The '87 Bills were 7-8 in a strike shortened season.

 

A team with Kelly, Reed, Bruce Smith, Kent Hull, Will Wolford and Jim Ritcher went 4-12. They went 7-8 after.

 

Does this fanbase have the gumption to do that?

 

Circle the Wagons and Invest in the future.

Edited August 28, 2018 by RocCityRoller

[RocCityRoller]

I voted Peterman. I want to add I am no Peterman fan boy, he is limited. I think the best Peterman is like Chad Pennington. Chad Pennington can win you games if the rest of the team is solid and the offense is suited to him. Peterman has earned the start, what else can a guy do?

 

Don't make him throw the out LOL. If he is staring down his WR on outs as some have supposed on TBD, fix it. I think it is arm strength, time will tell. I do like his tempo, and ability to read a defense at the line. He reads the middle of the field well and his intermediate passes have some heat. He is smart and has tempo. That could help the RBs and OL until they sort this mess out on offense. I do see Peterman as a long term #2 QB.

 

I view this situation like the McNabb - Pederson situation in Philly in 1999. I was living in Philadelphia at the time. No one questioned sitting McNabb for a while until he was ready, because he was a rough talent. McNabb was drafted #2 overall in 1999. The Philly offense was hot garbage, and they let freaking Doug Pederson take the lumps for 9 games. McNabb started in game 10 when the Eagles were 2-7 and there was nothing left to lose. The Philly offense had Duce Staley at RB and not much else at WR, TE or OL.

 

Sound familiar? I think Peterman is better than Pederson, and McCoy is better than Staley. Benjamin and Clay are better than Philly had at WR and TE.

 

That said Philly had Douglas and Whiting on the DL, Trotter at LB and Dawkins, Vincent, Taylor and Harris at DB. The Bills secondary may be up to the task, but the front 7????

 

Philly ended the season winning 3 of 5, and ended at 5-11 but had something to build on. I see a similar trajectory here.

 

McNabb went on to take his team to 4 NFC Championship games and a Super Bowl. Allen could be so much more.

 

You do not let a top 10 pick get David Carr'd and killed.

 

Sit Allen for 8-10 games andgive him 8-10 games of real NFL game planning. Have him work with Nathan and AJ in the film room, working on presnap reads and audibles. I think Peterman is very good at this, especially for a 2nd yr QB. Implement the quick strike elements of the offense as the full time offense. Get Allen to practice in the quick tempo, short and medium strike offense the team has looked good with in the preseason. The offense has looked best at this in the pre-season, and Peterman is the best at running it.

 

Have Josh play as the dedicated #2 and scout team QB. Has to play as if to be ready at a moment's notice, and offer something most scout team QBs can't offer. This could also help the defense prepare against big armed and scrambling QBs.

 

At game 8-10 put Allen in if the Bills are 2-6 or so. If not let Peterman play until they are eliminated. Peterman has earned at least that much.

 

With 8-10 games the offense should have some semblance of an identity and a 'go to' play book. Probably up-tempo, short to intermediate strikes, draws and some play action. Bring Josh Allen along with the expectation that he can run that offense in practice. Don't put him in until he gets those presnap reads down and can complete those passes well. Then when Allen does come in you can keep the same offense but add in the wrinkles his mobility and arm offer over Peterman. RPOs, deep outs and the occasional bomb. That adds dynamics to the same offense without a reset or whole different offensive philosophy.

 

It seems the most sound plan to me at this point.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by RocCityRoller