Shaq Lawson on roster bubble

[JohnC]

7 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Reports at the time were the at least 6 other teams passed on him for this reason.  How many more teams do you think were considering using their top 1-18 pick on Shaq's position?  It's easy to conclude that every team picking before the Bills passed on Shaq for the medical clearance.

 

As for the timing --sooner when??  The admission that he would, after all, need surgery was announced less than 3 weeks after the draft.

 

It's clear to me that Whaley figured that other teams would pass on his for this reason and he wanted Shaq so badly, he happily took him in the first round thinking "sure, he'll need this surgery ASAP, we will schedule it as soon in the off season as possible (after some 'occurrence'), and he will be ready to go in a few months and he will be a STEAL and I will be seen as a GENIUS!".

 

2 seasons later the fully functional Shaq may not even make the roster because he, with or without an injury/surgery, isn't that good.

 

Whaley's drafting, in a nutshell....

As you noted the real issue wasn't so much about his injury status as it was how he was evaluated. To a lesser extent than with EJ Manuel he was over-valued as a prospect. This regime has demonstrated that they are not committed to the players that the previous regime brought in. Signing Trent Murphy may indicate that this staff has a replacement player already in place if Lawson doesn't elevate his game. 

 

Where I disagree with you in this discussion is that I don't believe that the injury issue that plagued the player in college was as influential in other teams bypassing him in the draft. It was simply a case that there

was simply a case where their evaluations were different from Whaley's evaluation.  

 

If Lawson can improve his game to the point where he becomes a dependable rotational lineman then I will be more than satisfied. 

[ColoradoBills]

9 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Would any team be willing to trade for him if he isn't lighting it up in camp? Does he have a whole lot of value if he comes off 2 bad seasons and a training camp/pre-season so bad that his team is willing to trade him for a 7th? 

 

If Shaq is really bad I suspect he is more than likely cut. Unless that former third-round pick from the Giants (whose name escapes me at the moment) and the rest of the other 3 DE's outperform Shaq at an amazing level where the Bills are trading Shaq out of luxury.  So in my mind this training camp is it for him do or die.  

 

I hear what you're saying '89 but I don't think Shaq has performed poorly, just not to 1st round talent level.

I believe he stays as depth this year with Buffalo or is traded. 

I guess we all find out during TC.

[4merper4mer]

14 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Can I consult the two other "will Shaq be on the roster?' threads and get back to you on this?

As long as you are a prick about it when you come back to report.

[4merper4mer]

26 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Reports at the time were the at least 6 other teams passed on him for this reason.  How many more teams do you think were considering using their top 1-18 pick on Shaq's position?  It's easy to conclude that every team picking before the Bills passed on Shaq for the medical clearance.

 

As for the timing --sooner when??  The admission that he would, after all, need surgery was announced less than 3 weeks after the draft.

 

It's clear to me that Whaley figured that other teams would pass on his for this reason and he wanted Shaq so badly, he happily took him in the first round thinking "sure, he'll need this surgery ASAP, we will schedule it as soon in the off season as possible (after some 'occurrence'), and he will be ready to go in a few months and he will be a STEAL and I will be seen as a GENIUS!".

 

2 seasons later the fully functional Shaq may not even make the roster because he, with or without an injury/surgery, isn't that good.

 

Whaley's drafting, in a nutshell....

Are you going to completely leave out the look the rest of that draft had while you discuss Lawson?  You know....crappy players that only Rex could love?  Pin it all on Whaley.  Maybe he thought our medical staff could be like yours and give them all the TB12 juice.

 

BTW, Rex and Whaley are both gone, you can just feel the Bills gaining on your beloved Pats, so your reaction is to talk about Shawn Merriman?  Well, the Pats cleared Ted Johnson didn't they?  It does happen with other staffs you know.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

14 hours ago, BuffaloRush said:

If you look at the depth chart at OTA’s Shaq is probably the 4th DE on the roster behind Hughes, Murphy and Yarborough.  He’s really going to have to work his way on the field.  I can see a Reggie Ragland type trade unless Shaq has a big preseason. 

 

The one thing Lawson has going for him is a cheap contract.  Think he may have to outplay Hughes, they then keep Shaq and cut Hughes for $$ reasons.  I also do agree not likely at all he gets cut, but do see him getting traded.  Which may also play into the first part I stated, do we cut Hughes to save money or trade Shaq.  Think if it came down to those two options they trade him, assuming he doesn't light things up. 

[Lfod]

58 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Reports at the time were the at least 6 other teams passed on him for this reason.  How many more teams do you think were considering using their top 1-18 pick on Shaq's position?  It's easy to conclude that every team picking before the Bills passed on Shaq for the medical clearance.

 

As for the timing --sooner when??  The admission that he would, after all, need surgery was announced less than 3 weeks after the draft.

 

It's clear to me that Whaley figured that other teams would pass on his for this reason and he wanted Shaq so badly, he happily took him in the first round thinking "sure, he'll need this surgery ASAP, we will schedule it as soon in the off season as possible (after some 'occurrence'), and he will be ready to go in a few months and he will be a STEAL and I will be seen as a GENIUS!".

 

2 seasons later the fully functional Shaq may not even make the roster because he, with or without an injury/surgery, isn't that good.

 

Whaley's drafting, in a nutshell....

You make good points. I'd have to agree Whaley made a mistake on Shaq based on the timing aspect alone. Why wait around for a player when you can draft a guy like Tre White that contributes immediately. 

[BuffaloRush]

17 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

The one thing Lawson has going for him is a cheap contract.  Think he may have to outplay Hughes, they then keep Shaq and cut Hughes for $$ reasons.  I also do agree not likely at all he gets cut, but do see him getting traded.  Which may also play into the first part I stated, do we cut Hughes to save money or trade Shaq.  Think if it came down to those two options they trade him, assuming he doesn't light things up. 

 

The problem is, if they are thinking about trading Shaq, he probably will have higher value this off-season that he would after another subpar year.   So I think you might be able to trade him for a 4th round pick this year, next year it would be hard to get more than a 6th rounder for a 4th string DE.  

 

I think the preseason is really going to dictate Shaq’s future.  With a good showing he can start to climb the depth chart and get more reps or potentially finding a new opportunity on another team.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I still think his best shot at being effective in the NFL is to bulk up to around 285/290 and play DT. 

[frostbitmic]

Shaq will be the starting LDE this year.

[HOUSE]

Sure, he'll make the roster, play well then ask big money in free agency AFTER ONE DECENT season

 

The Beaner is too smart for this, A player motivate by money

 

Let him go sign with Jacksonville, they love this type of player....

[wppete]

Yes. Great rotation at DE. 

[BurpleBull]

Don't be surprised if Mike Love ends up on the 53 man roster or practice squad.

 

He looks like the edge setter that Lawson is, with the potential to grow into more.

 

Love could have been brought in with potentially moving Lawson in mind. 

 

Never know.

[Victory Formation]

9 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

Like Ragland? Yeah, we didn't even give him a chance, then let him go for nothing.

Kansas City is really high on Ragland too, I'm not sure if that's just media propaganda but they think he has All Pro potential. I personally think Shaq should be kept on for a bit, Jerry Hughes is not getting any younger, Murphy/Lawson could be the future. 

[Doc]

6 hours ago, NewDayBills said:

Kansas City is really high on Ragland too, I'm not sure if that's just media propaganda but they think he has All Pro potential. I personally think Shaq should be kept on for a bit, Jerry Hughes is not getting any younger, Murphy/Lawson could be the future. 

 

They're praying and better hope he is.  That defense is going to be horrible this year.

[Freddie's Dead]

I'm a little more pessimistic on Shaq.  He needs to show sumpthin', or he's gone.  I give him a 50/50 coin flip.

[Elite Poster]

I've been off the board for a few days. Came back to this. And people told me this was significantly better than the BBMB. Uh huh. Yep. 

13 hours ago, THE SLAMMER said:

Sure, he'll make the roster, play well then ask big money in free agency AFTER ONE DECENT season

 

The Beaner is too smart for this, A player motivate by money

 

Let him go sign with Jacksonville, they love this type of player....

 

I'm not sure if the Jacksonville dig is really appropriate. They have won a playoff game this century. 

[swnybillsfan]

On 6/23/2018 at 9:39 AM, buffalobloodfloridahome said:

All the talk of him slimming down and getting quicker off the ball may of just been smoke for trade bait

it could very well be. but in conjunction with the way Beane was speaking of their conversations...it sounds more like a "poop or get off the pot" wake up call. and the slimming down and getting quicker off the ball is hopefully a talented young man rededicating himself to his craft in hopes of having a long and successful career. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

On 6/23/2018 at 9:43 AM, ColoradoBills said:

 

I hear what you're saying '89 but I don't think Shaq has performed poorly, just not to 1st round talent level.

I believe he stays as depth this year with Buffalo or is traded. 

I guess we all find out during TC.

 

...probably his last hurrah......shoulder surgery and ankle injury didn't help, but pretty sure that is all behind him now......

[John from Riverside]

On 6/23/2018 at 7:38 AM, Lfod said:

You make good points. I'd have to agree Whaley made a mistake on Shaq based on the timing aspect alone. Why wait around for a player when you can draft a guy like Tre White that contributes immediately. 

In retrospect it looks like a bad pick.

 

You do this when the talent is so incredible that when healed the player is going to be a incredible force......

 

I love his run stop game

I am dismayed by his lack of pass rush

I became very nervous when I hear all this talk of "now Im going to take it seriously".....REALLY......why are you not taking it seriously in that second year?   The first year I gave a pass because of the injury and surgery......in year 2 he should have had this huge chip on his shoulder with something to prove....now...he is "taking it seriously"

[Captain Hindsight]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

In retrospect it looks like a bad pick.

 

You do this when the talent is so incredible that when healed the player is going to be a incredible force......

 

I love his run stop game

I am dismayed by his lack of pass rush

I became very nervous when I hear all this talk of "now Im going to take it seriously".....REALLY......why are you not taking it seriously in that second year?   The first year I gave a pass because of the injury and surgery......in year 2 he should have had this huge chip on his shoulder with something to prove....now...he is "taking it seriously"

To be fair to Shaq, Aaron Williams said something similar after he retired. He was relying on skill alone and it wasn't enough. Once he figured that out, he became a much better player

 

I'm sure we all put in max effort at our jobs too everyday 

[BADOLBILZ]

On 6/22/2018 at 8:31 AM, thebandit27 said:

 

In 2017, Ragland had 44 total tackles (31 solo) and 4 TFLs in 10 starts with no sacks, turnovers forced, or passes defensed.

 

I wouldn't call that a solid season, let alone a "very solid" one.

 

Take it a step further and consider that he had 8 solo tackles and 3 TFLs in one game against Buffalo, and another 8 solo tackles and 1 TFL the following week against the Giants, and you're talking about a guy that basically had 2 good back-to-back games in the middle of a season full of nondescript play.

 

EDIT: I should note that I don't say that to knock Rags; a guy his size coming off of an ACL tear has a long way to go.  I simply mean to point out that his 2017 campaign didn't exactly make Beane look foolish.

 

Exactly.

 

Regardless of him becoming a serviceable LB in the KC scheme......one of the major issues with the Ragnuts selection even at the time was the poor positional value.

 

It's not like the Bills gave up on a CB or a DE or.........well pretty much ANY other position.

 

Every year that 2 down or 2.5 down MLB position can be filled dirt cheap in FA.

 

This wasn't news when they drafted him but Rex had to have his ol' fashion LB.

[John from Riverside]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Exactly.

 

Regardless of him becoming a serviceable LB in the KC scheme......one of the major issues with the Ragnuts selection even at the time was the poor positional value.

 

It's not like the Bills gave up on a CB or a DE or.........well pretty much ANY other position.

 

Every year that 2 down or 2.5 down MLB position can be filled dirt cheap in FA.

 

This wasn't news when they drafted him but Rex had to have his ol' fashion LB.

He was looking for that ILB the jets had that was very good for years.......I cant fault that.....

 

The problem was.....Rex was not long for this team so picks that fit his defense all had to be retrofitted.....

 

Edmunds looks much more like the player that fits a fast athletic D that can cover people.

[thebandit27]

8 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

He was looking for that ILB the jets had that was very good for years.......I cant fault that.....

 

The problem was.....Rex was not long for this team so picks that fit his defense all had to be retrofitted.....

 

Edmunds looks much more like the player that fits a fast athletic D that can cover people.

 

The issue is that most teams can find themselves a 2-down 'backer that can adequately thump against the run in the mid to late rounds or late in FA.

 

As for Edmunds, he's a different discussion IMO.  With him, you're talking about a guy that has the potential to be a perennial all-pro and a big-time impact defender in every phase of the defense (run stopping, pass rushing, coverage, communication, etc.).  

[Royale with Cheese]

52 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

The issue is that most teams can find themselves a 2-down 'backer that can adequately thump against the run in the mid to late rounds or late in FA.

 

As for Edmunds, he's a different discussion IMO.  With him, you're talking about a guy that has the potential to be a perennial all-pro and a big-time impact defender in every phase of the defense (run stopping, pass rushing, coverage, communication, etc.).  

 

I thought about this the other day.  What if Edmunds continues to grow physically?  He's only 20 now I believe and long....could fill out and get a little thicker.

If he gets up to that 260-265 range, do we keep him at MLB?

[wppete]

Yeah I can easily see him t 260lbs in a couple of years from now. I think they will use him at MLB and also come off the edge. It will be fun to see how mcDermott and Frazier use him.

[Soda Popinski]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I thought about this the other day.  What if Edmunds continues to grow physically?  He's only 20 now I believe and long....could fill out and get a little thicker.

If he gets up to that 260-265 range, do we keep him at MLB?

I hope he stays in the 250-255 range, with that 4.5 speed he'll be devastating against the run and in coverage on those TEs.   We finally have a LB who is capable of running with Gronk I hope we don't move him over to pass rusher or something like that.  
 

I do think as a situational zone blitzer, he could be an absolute beast, but the hole moving would create wouldn't be worth it IMO. 

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, Soda Popinski said:

I hope he stays in the 250-255 range, with that 4.5 speed he'll be devastating against the run and in coverage on those TEs.   We finally have a LB who is capable of running with Gronk I hope we don't move him over to pass rusher or something like that.  
 

I do think as a situational zone blitzer, he could be an absolute beast, but the hole moving would create wouldn't be worth it IMO. 

 

I thought maybe if he gets to that 260+ range, with his athleticism and speed.....pass rushing DE?

[Soda Popinski]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I thought maybe if he gets to that 260+ range, with his athleticism and speed.....pass rushing DE?

I think he could make that transition pretty easily.   Definitely something he could do.  I just would rather have him at MLB.  I think once he gets his bearings he could be one of the best MLBs in football.   At DE, he's just another pass rusher.  Might be better for his wallet though. 

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

I think he could make that transition pretty easily.   Definitely something he could do.  I just would rather have him at MLB.  I think once he gets his bearings he could be one of the best MLBs in football.   At DE, he's just another pass rusher.  Might be better for his wallet though. 

 

Yeah I'd like to keep him at MLB too....just had that thought of what if he does get a lot thicker.

What if he grows to be 6"8 and 270 lbs?  Match him up against Lebron on the hardwood?

[Soda Popinski]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Yeah I'd like to keep him at MLB too....just had that thought of what if he does get a lot thicker.

What if he grows to be 6"8 and 270 lbs?  Match him up against Lebron on the hardwood?

I don't know how these kids keep growing, didn't Allen grow from 6'2 his freshman year of college to 6'5 his senior year?   I hope the boy goes through another spurt, he needs to grow to about 6'5, it'll make getting him into college a lot easier. 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Soda Popinski said:

I don't know how these kids keep growing, didn't Allen grow from 6'2 his freshman year of college to 6'5 his senior year?   I hope the boy goes through another spurt, he needs to grow to about 6'5, it'll make getting him into college a lot easier. 

 

I think David Robinson grew like 6 inches in the NAVY.

[thebandit27]

18 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I thought about this the other day.  What if Edmunds continues to grow physically?  He's only 20 now I believe and long....could fill out and get a little thicker.

If he gets up to that 260-265 range, do we keep him at MLB?

 

It's entirely possible that he'll end up in the 260+ range.

 

I think his versatility is what makes him so special.  You can move him around and do whatever you like positionally.  The most important thing will be how quickly he can learn the game and how to cut down steps on the field so that he can play in every situation.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

It's entirely possible that he'll end up in the 260+ range.

 

I think his versatility is what makes him so special.  You can move him around and do whatever you like positionally.  The most important thing will be how quickly he can learn the game and how to cut down steps on the field so that he can play in every situation.

 

With his speed and athleticism....not to mention his long arms....I think defensive end would be an easy transition for him.  

[thebandit27]

4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

With his speed and athleticism....not to mention his long arms....I think defensive end would be an easy transition for him.  

 

I think you'll see him deployed as an EDGE guy at least some of the time as a rookie; he was a very effective in generating pressure both as a straight EDGE rusher and as a blitzer at Va Tech.

 

I think the reason that MLB is seen as his most valuable position is that it allows him to contribute in every possible way.  Run D, pass rusher, blitzer, zone defender, QB spy, man coverage, etc.  The fact that the defensive communication would be funneled through him is a huge factor as well.

 

Like I said though: put him anywhere and everywhere.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I think you'll see him deployed as an EDGE guy at least some of the time as a rookie; he was a very effective in generating pressure both as a straight EDGE rusher and as a blitzer at Va Tech.

 

I think the reason that MLB is seen as his most valuable position is that it allows him to contribute in every possible way.  Run D, pass rusher, blitzer, zone defender, QB spy, man coverage, etc.  The fact that the defensive communication would be funneled through him is a huge factor as well.

 

Like I said though: put him anywhere and everywhere.

 

How did this guy fall to #16?

[Mr. WEO]

17 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I think David Robinson grew like 6 inches in the NAVY.

 

No comment on his thickness?

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

How did this guy fall to #16?

 

Not sure...if I had to guess, I would say that it was a mixture of positional value taking precedence (vis a vis 4 QBs going in the top 10) and teams not being excited about drafting a 19-year old kid.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

No comment on his thickness?

 

He got thicker....much thicker.  I was in awe.  

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

He got thicker....much thicker.  I was in awe.  

 

And all the Seamen...

[Royale with Cheese]

13 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Not sure...if I had to guess, I would say that it was a mixture of positional value taking precedence (vis a vis 4 QBs going in the top 10) and teams not being excited about drafting a 19-year old kid.

 

Did you have him above Roquan Smith?

Lorax was on WGR a few days after the draft and he mentioned that McDermott/Beane had Edmunds above Smith.