KD in CA Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, john wawrow said: yes. the pegulas are spanos. it's exactly the same situation. they're packing it all up and moving everything. the bills. sabres. harborcenter. even going to confiscate the sod they put down at canalside and take that with them. smh jw I hope they move everything to Santa Rosa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete This Account Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) So i don't have to repeat myself, please see thoughts expressed on twitter Thread links: https://twitter.com/john_wawrow/status/999393053688418304 https://twitter.com/john_wawrow/status/999397458441658369 jw 3 minutes ago, KD in CA said: I hope they move everything to Santa Rosa! Firebaugh, I hear. jw Edited May 23, 2018 by john wawrow 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, john wawrow said: So i don't have to repeat myself, please see thoughts expressed on twitter Thread link: https://twitter.com/john_wawrow/status/999393053688418304 jw Thanks John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the Dolphins renovated their stadium (I have season tickets to the Miami Hurricanes who also play there). The renovations cost about $425 million and it is like going to a new stadium. I hate to say it, but the Dolphins did a very nice job. I think others who are members here have been to the stadium after it was renovated and also were impressed. Perhaps a renovation would work. I wish the stadium were downtown, but I think Kim is correct in that the market does not support higher ticket prices and people do not want to pay for PSLs. Interesting Personal Side Note re My (former) Season Tickets and Horrible Re-Sale Market Last Year I actually was a long time season ticket holder with great seats but ended up giving up my season tickets because I lost money on the re-sale market. My goal always had been to at least break even on the games I could not go to as an out-of-town season ticket holder. Last year was the worst year for the re-sale market. I could not sell the home opener against the Jets at all even though my seats were in the lower bowl on the 45 yard line and I had lowered the price to the lowest I could on the NFL ticket exchange. As you guys also know, the Colts game was going for $6 a ticket. That is crazy. On top of all that, I noticed that they inserted in the agreement that I would indemnify the Bills and the NFL for any damages caused by people using my tickets. I thought that was overreaching given that I use the NFL Ticket Exchange - a platform through which the Bills and NFL share in the selling price and I have no control over who buys the tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Just now, Peter said: I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the Dolphins renovated their stadium (I have season tickets to the Miami Hurricanes who also play there). The renovations cost about $425 million and it is like going to a new stadium. I hate to say it, but the Dolphins did a very nice job. I think others who are members here have been to the stadium after it was renovated and also were impressed. Perhaps a renovation would work. I wish the stadium were downtown, but I think Kim is correct in that the market does not support higher ticket prices and people do not want to pay for PSLs. Interesting Personal Side Note re My (former) Season Tickets and Horrible Re-Sale Market Last Year I actually was a long time season ticket holder with great seats but ended up giving up my season tickets because I lost money on the re-sale market. My goal always had been to at least break even on the games I could not go to as an out-of-town season ticket holder. Last year was the worst year for the re-sale market. I could not sell the home opener against the Jets at all even though my seats were in the lower bowl on the 45 yard line and I had lowered the price to the lowest I could on the NFL ticket exchange. As you guys also know, the Colts game was going for $6 a ticket. That is crazy. On top of all that, I noticed that they inserted in the agreement that I would indemnify the Bills and the NFL for any damages caused by people using my tickets. I thought that was overreaching given that I use the NFL Ticket Exchange - a platform through which the Bills and NFL share in the selling price and I have no control over who buys the tickets. I dont understand the whole "new stadium" thing anyway Most fans dont want it and are happy that the team is not in Canada if I am reading everything correctly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 18 minutes ago, john wawrow said: yes. the pegulas are spanos. it's exactly the same situation. they're packing it all up and moving everything. the bills. sabres. harborcenter. even going to confiscate the sod they put down at canalside and take that with them. smh jw I agree John. There is no way the Pegulas are ever moving the team. I forever will be grateful that they purchased the Bills and Sabres and I will never have to worry about that again. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 1 hour ago, joesixpack said: He's busy getting his MS-13 face tattoos awesome !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, sullim4 said: I suspect this is a set up for a renovation of the existing facility, which in my mind would be welcome news. It's the fiscally responsible decision and it avoids a lot of the nastiness with PSLs and excessively priced luxury suites. Some of the stuff could be simple things like eliminating the bench-style seating in the upper deck with bucket seats, to the more complex like gutting the non-club 200 level seating and replacing it with a standing-room concourse, a restaurant or pub for season ticket holders, or something similar. If we're lucky, we may actually get a heated grass field a la Lambeau to replace the questionable turf that we have. I could see Erie County kicking in money for something like that. I think the Pegulas are smart enough to realize that new luxury boxes aren't going to extract the most money out of the Bills and Sabres… the franchises' biggest asset is the unique fanbase and the way you extract money from these kinds of people is very different from the typical luxury box owner. Merchandise sales, "unique" experiences with players, keeping the existing tailgating atmosphere (without going too crazy), and low season ticket churn will extract more money over the long term than paying for a new stadium and expecting PSLs and higher luxury suite sales rates in return. Lambeau has been renovated recently with a big indoor atrium addition, museum and added seats. It's nice. For a couple hundred million the Ralph could upgraded as well. Might be a good compromise and still provide added revenue and keep the Bills affordable for the fans. The Bills can probably sell a lot more tickets (added seats?) if they can put a winning product on the field. The big stadiums aren't all what they're cracked up to be and you have to fill it with lots of non-football events to justify it. Chicago Bears tickets are very expensive, expensive PSL required for season tickets and parking is $40 and up. That stadium, redone 15 years ago or so is nothing special and it cost $700 million. I'd rather have the Lambeau solution at one-fourth the price. Edited May 23, 2018 by keepthefaith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: You poor old sod, you see, it's only me. different type of sod ☺️ But i do see you Aqualung : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Maybe @Kirby Jackson will copy and paste soon....... Or maybe he wants no part of this? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Just now, keepthefaith said: Lambeau has been renovated recently with a big indoor atrium addition, museum and added seats. It's nice. For a couple hundred million the Ralph could upgraded as well. Might be a good compromise and still provide added revenue and keep the Bills affordable for the fans. The Bills can probably sell a lot more tickets (added seats?) if they can put a winning product on the field. The bid stadiums aren't all what they're cracked up to be. Chicago tickets are very expensive, expensive PSL required for season tickets and parking is $40 and up. That stadium, redone 15 years ago or so is nothing special and it cost $700 million. I'd rather have the Lambeau solution at one-fourth the price. ...at the same time, there is a huge economy of scale difference between Buffalo and Chicago......IF you don't get murdered on the way to the game......Bflo has drunks...Chicago has MS-13 et al....... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Augie said: Maybe @Kirby Jackson will copy and paste soon....... Or maybe he wants no part of this? ? I’m going to try to stay out of this but it sure sounds EXACTLY like I said it would...LAMP Edited May 23, 2018 by Kirby Jackson 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 17 minutes ago, Dalton said: So a bit of math: Stadium cost: $750 Million Down Payment: $160 Millions (20%) Useful life of Stadium: 30 years (very conservative) Interest Rate: 4% Yearly Payments: $42,967,368 # events: 10 Tickets sold/event: 75,000 Cost per ticket: $57/game excluding down payment cost So is the fan base willing to pay and additional $57 per game all other things being equal? I like math and your numbers are spot on for your scenario. Going with a Lucas Oil type stadium. Cost in the early 2020's will be at least a billion with 67,000 seats. That comes to $85.51 extra per seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: I’m going to try to stay out of this but it sure sounds EXACTLY like I said it would...LAMP I thought she handled Phase One deftly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullim4 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 … and with the NFL having trouble filling up new stadiums (the 49ers stick out in my mind, but there are others), why invest a crap ton of money in the stadium? It's not paying off for many teams outside of the teams with large markets like the Cowboys. Even the Jets with the NYC market are having issues. And I can't believe anyone is suggesting that they would move the team. That's just not going to happen with these two. You can complain all you want about meddling or boneheaded decisions like hiring Rex or keeping Russ around too long. But they view the Bills and Sabres just like we do... for goodness sake they call in to WGR randomly. They won't sell either team of their own accord so long as they're alive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 35 minutes ago, NewDayBills said: We are a blue collar city though, do we really need a state of the art stadium? I love New Era/Ralph Wilson stadium, it's incredible. Dump money into rennovations, it's fine. EDIT: We need to be fiscally responsible here, IMO. It's not really about the fans, no matter what owners say. Bills have to be able to compete financially and stay viable. I just don't see see how they do that 10 years from now without a new stadium. I'm sure it gets done at the end of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Pygmy Goat Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 1 hour ago, corta765 said: That's not true It truthfully depends on the type of stadium. If the Bills do a mix of SEA/PIT/DET/IND its about 400-500 million which won't kill ticket prices. You are correct if they do a Vikings/Falcons type billion dollar project. $500 mil is way too low, even for an open air stadium. Lucas Oil in Indy was $720 mil. Granted it's a dome, which adds roughly $100 mil, but that building was finished 10 years ago. If replicated in Indy today, inflation would bump that number up to around, or more than $800 mil. 1 hour ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said: I don't see another outdoor stadium being built. If they do, it'll be a multipurpose domed/retractable roof stadium, designed to attract a Super Bowl, College Bowl games, etc. Crazy talk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 1 minute ago, sullim4 said: … and with the NFL having trouble filling up new stadiums (the 49ers stick out in my mind, but there are others), why invest a crap ton of money in the stadium? It's not paying off for many teams outside of the teams with large markets like the Cowboys. Even the Jets with the NYC market are having issues. And I can't believe anyone is suggesting that they would move the team. That's just not going to happen with these two. You can complain all you want about meddling or boneheaded decisions like hiring Rex or keeping Russ around too long. But they view the Bills and Sabres just like we do... for goodness sake they call in to WGR randomly. They won't sell either team of their own accord so long as they're alive. ...ahhh.... a voice of reason....did you check out the cost of PSL's or tickets at Niners Levi Stadium?.....seriously?......Cowgirls in a MAJOR market command and get exorbitant money primarily from corporate support, not the individual Joe Fan who no longer matters....our 20 person suite at The Hat is $75k plus all of the trimmings....Dallas gets $225-$250K+ for the same......think WNY/Bflo would or could support that escalation?..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Augie said: I thought she handled Phase One deftly. She certainly has less leverage than other owners in that everyone knows they are married to Buffalo. At the same time she took the natural first step of “don’t look at us to pay for this whole thing.” It will end like these things always do, the state, the team and the fans will share in the cost. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, TheTruthHurts said: It's not really about the fans, no matter what owners say. Bills have to be able to compete financially and stay viable. I just don't see see how they do that 10 years from now without a new stadium. I'm sure it gets done at the end of the day. It's not hard to compete financially when you keep your costs low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 1 hour ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said: I don't see another outdoor stadium being built. If they do, it'll be a multipurpose domed/retractable roof stadium, designed to attract a Super Bowl, College Bowl games, etc. Buffalo will never get a Super Bowl. They do not have enough hotel rooms and neither putting hotel barges on Niagara river or using hotel rooms in Niagara Falls, Canada count. Renovation Priorities IMO: The structural issues should be looked at Upgrade the field so they could try to reduce number of injuries Modify entrances so to prevent the traffic jams which have happened in past 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: She certainly has less leverage than other owners in that everyone knows they are married to Buffalo. At the same time she took the natural first step of “don’t look at us to pay for this whole thing.” It will end like these things always do, the state, the team and the fans will share in the cost. Sorry, but I read here that this is the first step before they almost certainly move the franchise. Maybe you missed that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadonkadonk Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Raise ticket prices. Sell PSLs. Cut stadium size to 62,000 Still will need a ton of money in tax revenue. Put that all in a ballot and let Erie, Niagara, and surrounding counties vote on it. If they want to pay them you get a new stadium. If not there are other cities that will pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocCityRoller Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 looks like a savvy business move to start talks with Erie County and NYS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Limeaid said: Buffalo will never get a Super Bowl. They do not have enough hotel rooms and neither putting hotel barges on Niagara river or using hotel rooms in Niagara Falls, Canada count. Renovation Priorities IMO: The structural issues should be looked at Upgrade the field so they could try to reduce number of injuries Modify entrances so to prevent the traffic jams which have happened in past From the Bills standpoint those issues will fall well behind revenue generating opportunities IMO. The first thing that I would do is redo the entire lower level between the 20’s at least. The amenities there (and pricing) would be stepped up. The weirdest part about New Era Field is that the best locations aren’t combined with the best amenities. That is asinine to me. It would be like an NBA having floor seats with no private clubs or other benefits. You’d have the benefits for people in worse locations. It’s crazy. The best way to maximize revenue is to marry the best locations and the best benefits. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Limeaid said: Buffalo will never get a Super Bowl. They do not have enough hotel rooms and neither putting hotel barges on Niagara river or using hotel rooms in Niagara Falls, Canada count. Renovation Priorities IMO: The structural issues should be looked at Upgrade the field so they could try to reduce number of injuries Modify entrances so to prevent the traffic jams which have happened in past I would also consider a partial roof the way the Dolphins did it. It would protect against some of the elements, it definitely holds in the crowd noise, and it could possibly help with the swirling winds (a guess). Dolphins/Hurricanes Stadium Photo Inside Dolphins/Hurricanes Stadium Photo Outside With the $425 million renovations, the Hard Rock is like a brand new stadium. Edited May 23, 2018 by Peter Edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnCoke11 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Not surprising.. That area/govt can’t support a new stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Peter said: I would also consider a partial roof the way the Dolphins did it. It would protect against some of the elements, it definitely holds in the crowd noise, and it could possible help with the swirling winds (a guess on my part). Dolphins/Hurricanes Stadium Photo Inside Dolphins/Hurricanes Stadium Photo Outside I have mentioned it before but an architect friend who has done stadium work before showed me designs of a stadium like I have never seen before. The roof (not really a roof) was slanted to provide mechanism to funnel snow off stands to piles around stadium protecting stands from rain, etc unless it goes horizontal which it does occasionally in that stadium. The field is open but it is not a "hole" like cowpokes stadium. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, Augie said: Sorry, but I read here that this is the first step before they almost certainly move the franchise. Maybe you missed that. Curse you @Augie for dragging me in on these conversations!! I was trying to stay out!! I just can’t help myself... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocCityRoller Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 23 minutes ago, TheTruthHurts said: It's not really about the fans, no matter what owners say. Bills have to be able to compete financially and stay viable. I just don't see see how they do that 10 years from now without a new stadium. I'm sure it gets done at the end of the day. The Green Bay Packers and KC Chiefs play in two of the oldest stadiums and are pretty competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 We will need to worry about them moving in 30 years. At that point a bunch of us on here won’t be around to care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, Limeaid said: I have mentioned it before but an architect friend who has done stadium work before showed me designs of a stadium like I have never seen before. The roof (not really a roof) was slanted to provide mechanism to funnel snow off stands to piles around stadium protecting stands from rain, etc unless it goes horizontal which it does occasionally in that stadium. The field is open but it is not a "hole" like cowpokes stadium. Very cool. I would love to see those plans. I think that there is a lot of potential at the existing site at a much lesser cost. As much as I think that the stadium should have been built downtown, I just don't see how a new stadium could be built with any significant contribution by the Bills that would not make the price of tickets and/or PSLs above what the market would bear. In fact, as I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, last year was the WORST year in the re-sale market that I have ever experienced. I was a long time out of town season ticket holder and ended up having to give up my great seats. I could not sell the tickets to the home opener and tickets to the Colts game were going for $6. If that is a market indicator, I just don't see how the Bills could raise ticket prices much or charge for PSLs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr1 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 renovation is so expensive like with the Carrier Dome might as well just build a new one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Guffalo said: She has a good read on the fanbase. She is realistic in assessing the general feeling of the fans. Do we want a new stadium? , sure, Do we want to pay for it through higher ticket prices , PSL's and increased taxes? , Probably not. She knows the landscape she is up against. Smart owner. Agree except for the point "do we need a new stadium?". Personally, NO!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, jr1 said: renovation is so expensive like with the Carrier Dome might as well just build a new one The Hard Rock renovation cost $425 million reportedly. Edited May 23, 2018 by Peter Edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 16 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Curse you @Augie for dragging me in on these conversations!! I was trying to stay out!! I just can’t help myself... HEY! That’s what friends are for! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 I have many architect friends...mostly because I'm an Architect myself. We don't design anything without first knowing the Scope, Budget and Schedule that our Clients have in mind. The true skill set of the Architect is to meet the Client's goals, and get the project constructed on time...all while staying within their budget. I'm not sure that I've heard enough about the Client's goals to offer much of a solution. Is New Era 'broken'? Is it in the wrong location for its customer base? Does it not bring in enough non-football revenue? Does it need new amenities to draw more attendance? Are there outside mandates from the League, or Code-required changes? 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: I have many architect friends...mostly because I'm an Architect myself. We don't design anything without first knowing the Scope, Budget and Schedule that our Clients have in mind. The true skill set of the Architect is to meet the Client's goals, and get the project constructed on time...all while staying within their budget. I'm not sure that I've heard enough about the Client's goals to offer much of a solution. Is New Era 'broken'? Is it in the wrong location for its customer base? Does it not bring in enough non-football revenue? Does it need new amenities to draw more attendance? Are there outside mandates from the League, or Code-required changes? Quick side story that you may find interesting. In New Orleans when they built the arena they basically used the Superdome and scaled it down. It was (and is) a terrible decision for a basketball arena. There are roughly 17,000 seats and about 10,000 of them are upstairs. You can get anywhere from $60 to $250 downstairs (floors excluded) and about $10 to $40 upstairs. They really missed the boat on the design. They should have had more rows downstairs, especially on the ends where you can get “cheaper” seats and less rows upstairs. One more fun fact about the arena build, they forgot to put the box office in when it was originally built. They were pretty much done and had to blow out a wall in a hallway to create something (and it was awful). It has since been renovated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 They don’t have the money? I read here that that they had north of 4 billion cash before they bought the Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 1 hour ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: do you think the WNY economy of scale would or could support it?..... Just curious, what do you mean by the term "WNY economy of scale"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts