Is "faith" a requirement under McD?

[TheElectricCompany]

8 minutes ago, Perry Turtle said:

Shady is one of McDermott's favorite players.  Shady is no choir boy, but he is a dedicated and fierce competitor on the field.  I think that's more of what McDermott is looking for.

Shady is an elite player in this league. I think that's what Mcdermott is looking. 

If you want my serious answer on the matter, no, I don't think it matters to McD. 

Faith absolutely can play a positive role in your perspective and personality,  but it is not a prerequisite for being humble, driven, dedicated, team first, etc. etc. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by TheElectricCompany

[Mickey]

4 minutes ago, Perry Turtle said:

Shady is one of McDermott's favorite players.  Shady is no choir boy, but he is a dedicated and fierce competitor on the field.  I think that's more of what McDermott is looking for.

 

Those are qualities that have nothing to do with faith. If that is what he means then I don't know why he would describe it using language that is clearly religious. The language he uses is problematic whether it truly can be inferred from that language that he improperly considers religion when making personnel decisions or not. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't but this question wouldn't even be asked without the constant references to "football, faith and family". I know that if I was on that team and an agnostic, I would feel compelled to hide that fact for fear of its effect on my career. 

[eball]

9 minutes ago, DriveFor1Outta5 said:

Why do I not understand what this means? PS took me a minute. I get it now, you were referring to the name Springsteen ? . I understand that, but Peterman never sounded that way to me. Maybe it’s because growing up I knew quite a few people with that name. 

 

Maybe you would have gotten the joke more quickly if his name was Schlongman.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

Just now, Mickey said:

 

Those are qualities that have nothing to do with faith. If that is what he means then I don't know why he would describe it using language that is clearly religious. The language he uses is problematic whether it truly can be inferred from that language that he improperly considers religion when making personnel decisions or not. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't but this question wouldn't even be asked without the constant references to "football, faith and family". I know that if I was on that team and an agnostic, I would feel compelled to hide that fact for fear of its effect on my career. 

You’d probably hide that fact regardless of what team you’re on. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

11 minutes ago, Mickey said:

 

If you are giving someone "bonus points" for being religious, you are disadvantaging those who have a different view because they aren't getting those "bonus points" and that is pretty much the definition of discrimination. It would be no different if you said that when the candidates have an equal skill set, I always hire the man. It is illegal in this state to make employment decisions based on sex, race, creed or sexual orientation, not even as a "tie-breaker".

 

 

Palpable rage is palpable.

 

Again, a completely unfounded concept put forward by eball shouldn't be taken as..pardon the pun...gospel truth.

 

[eball]

Just now, joesixpack said:

 

Palpable rage is palpable.

 

Again, a completely unfounded concept put forward by eball shouldn't be taken as..pardon the pun...gospel truth.

 

 

What "unfounded concept" do you speak of?  I believe I asked a question and encouraged discussion based upon the repeated public statements of our head coach.

 

Feeling threatened or something?

[Lfod]

10 minutes ago, Mickey said:

 

Those are qualities that have nothing to do with faith. If that is what he means then I don't know why he would describe it using language that is clearly religious. The language he uses is problematic whether it truly can be inferred from that language that he improperly considers religion when making personnel decisions or not. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't but this question wouldn't even be asked without the constant references to "football, faith and family". I know that if I was on that team and an agnostic, I would feel compelled to hide that fact for fear of its effect on my career. 

Some places in this world people are murdered for being Christians. They are  not scared to hide it so don't be afraid to hide you don't believe in it. Malala Yousafzai was shot in the face for standing up for womens rights. She displayed more backbone as a kid then you just represented right now. 

 

Martin Luther King Jr died  standing up for his cause. 

 

I don't care what a person believes but I'll respect them more for fighting for it. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Lfod

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, eball said:

 

What "unfounded concept" do you speak of?  I believe I asked a question and encouraged discussion based upon the repeated public statements of our head coach.

 

Feeling threatened or something?

 

Not at all. I'm not a christian.

 

But at the same time I have enough common sense to understand that just because someone is out there saying he believes in something doesn't mean he's using it as a hiring criteria.

 

The only time I get nervous about religion is when someone's shouting it before they blow themselves up or shoot up a busload or room full of people.

 

 

[Mickey]

Maybe so because that particular prejudice seems endemic in the NFL. However, that makes this kind of prejudice more rather than less reprehensible.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

35 minutes ago, Gugny said:

For what it's worth, this is Sean McDermott's high school senior portrait:

 

 

Wow the hair made quite a difference 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, Mickey said:

Maybe so because that particular prejudice seems endemic in the NFL. However, that makes this kind of prejudice more rather than less reprehensible.

 

WHAT PREJUDICE?

 

 

[eball]

1 minute ago, joesixpack said:

 

But at the same time I have enough common sense to understand that just because someone is out there saying he believes in something doesn't mean he's using it as a hiring criteria.

 

 

You should understand by now that there is no such thing as "common" sense or it wouldn't be so uncommon.  And stop putting words in my mouth -- I asked a question and encouraged discussion.  I did not presume anything.

[thurst44]

40 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

I know what you mean here, but this is entirely off topic and not really relevant to the OP's suggestion.

 

The issue is not whether McD is a "true Christian".  The issue is whether or not he allows his religious beliefs to interfere in otherwise objective/clear headed decision making.  I bet he does.

 

 

I have faith that he doesn't  (or at least I sure hope not)

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

5 minutes ago, eball said:

 

You should understand by now that there is no such thing as "common" sense or it wouldn't be so uncommon.  And stop putting words in my mouth -- I asked a question and encouraged discussion.  I did not presume anything.

 

On one hand you say in your OP:

 

Quote

is there a place for a player on this roster who isn't a devout Christian or (perish the thought) is agnostic or an atheist? 

 

Which begs the question, why wouldn't there be UNLESS McD has some sort of religious criteria for players?

 

But then, in the next paragraph, you give us the presumed answer:

 

Quote

Obviously McD can't come out and openly discriminate on the basis of religion but that's not what I'm asking.

 

Oh, but that kind of IS what you're asking in the above quote. See the issue I'm having here? Not trying to be combative or anything.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by joesixpack

[nucci]

48 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

I have considered this very point a few times and thought of starting a thread on it myself.

 

I noticed right away when Josh Allen did his first interviews with WNY media outlets, he was working Jesus into his first few comments.  Did that play a role in the team wanting him over someone else, like Josh Rosen? 

 

I believe it is highly likely that McDermott allows his Christian faith to influence his decision making, even if he is not consciously aware of it.

 

 

No, McDermott has made it clear many times in how he speaks that he is devoutly religious. 

 

His use of "faith" is the religious meaning, not other more abstract meanings.

 

 

Kim Pegula is also very religious. Been written that was one of the main reasons he was hired.

[eball]

@joesixpack you're trying too hard.  If you have something to contribute, contribute.

[Dr. Who]

So far as I can tell, the foundation for this discussion is the perceived implications of "faith, family, football" and the presence of a number of players that have used rhetoric implying that they are Christians.  It seems a stretch to use the alliterative rhetoric of a mantra as a basis for suspicion.  Here's a less nefarious interpretation:  we value people of integrity and principle.  We treat each other first as family, not as an aggregate of contract businessman.  Athletic success will derive from good character and comradery.  That's a lot to say briefly, so, "faith, family, football."  There would have to be some hard evidence before I would take it to be code for exclusionary criteria or selection processes that use some kind of orthodoxy to cow religious dissent.  Indeed, without something concrete to anchor such a charge, it would be itself unethical and bordering on tinfoil hat paranoia.

 

Though I take it, to be clear, that the OP intended a relatively benign speculation.

[LeGOATski]

He may use "family, faith, football" as a personal motto. I haven't heard him use it in relation to the team process.

 

I think he's looking for certain personality traits. A couple of those are the willingness to buy into a process, of which all aspects are not known or meant to be understood, and leading a disciplined lifestyle.

 

It may seem that people of religious faith exhibit these traits more often than those without religious faith, but you can't directly link them.

 

Case in point: Zay Jones. Religious faith, but I would definitely question his discipline.

 

Opposite of that: Lesean McCoy? I may be wrong, but I haven't seen him portray himself as religious. And some of you may want to argue me on this, but he is certainly disciplined and willing to buy in. Even with his talent, I don't think he would've lasted this long or been as productive without those traits.

[Jay_Fixit]

1 hour ago, Soda Popinski said:

you may find some devout George Michael fans though...

 

FAITH

Guilty.

[Billsflyer12]

http://buffalonews.com/2017/11/24/inside-the-bills-team-chaplain-len-vanden-bos-blends-faith-and-football/

 

McDermott hired a full time team Chaplin just after he arrived.  I think is may have been the 1st time in organization history, if I remember correctly.

 

 

[Mickey]

4 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Palpable rage is palpable.

 

Again, a completely unfounded concept put forward by eball shouldn't be taken as..pardon the pun...gospel truth.

 

 

I can't be certain McDermott considers religion in making personnel decisions but I was responding to someone who himself seemed to think that it was okay to do so if it was used as a tie breaker. Its not. As for McDermott, I respectfully disagree that eball's concern is entirely unfounded. Mac does talk about faith in connection with what he is looking for in a football player. Given how important religious faith is to him, it is at least plausible that when he is talking about "faith, family and football" he means faith in God. At the very least, its pretty loose language. We wouldn't be having this discussion if he said "family, community, football" or something similar.

In the final analysis, either you trust the guy to be fair or you don't. Despite his loose language on the subject, I have "faith" in McDermott and the Pegula's that they would not improperly consider religion in making hiring decisions. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

5 minutes ago, eball said:

@joesixpack you're trying too hard.  If you have something to contribute, contribute.

 

I don't think I am.

 

And I think I have.

 

You're entitled to your tinfoil hats, like everyone else.

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by joesixpack
English is hard.

[Lfod]

7 minutes ago, Billsflyer12 said:

http://buffalonews.com/2017/11/24/inside-the-bills-team-chaplain-len-vanden-bos-blends-faith-and-football/

 

McDermott hired a full time team Chaplin just after he arrived.  I think is may have been the 1st time in organization history, if I remember correctly.

 

 

McDermott also broke the playoff drought. 

 

Although I'll give you credit for bringing substance to the discussion. I forgotten about this. It at least proves the point they have brought religious influence to the team.

 

Now I can't argue against that. I guess people can worry about how religion will effect the team. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Lfod

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 minutes ago, Mickey said:

 

I can't be certain McDermott considers religion in making personnel decisions but I was responding to someone who himself seemed to think that it was okay to do so if it was used as a tie breaker. Its not. As for McDermott, I respectfully disagree that eball's concern is entirely unfounded. Mac does talk about faith in connection with what he is looking for in a football player. Given how important religious faith is to him, it is at least plausible that when he is talking about "faith, family and football" he means faith in God. At the very least, its pretty loose language. We wouldn't be having this discussion if he said "family, community, football" or something similar.

In the final analysis, either you trust the guy to be fair or you don't. Despite his loose language on the subject, I have "faith" in McDermott and the Pegula's that they would not improperly consider religion in making hiring decisions. 

 

as an aside, you mentioned that "a particular prejudice" was prevalent in NFL football. Which prejudice are you speaking of? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[billsfan1959]

There is no doubt that McDermott has a strong religious faith. However, from everything I have read and listened to, in terms of press conferences, player interviews, etc., I have always had the impression that he embraces the individual aspects of each of his players, and that tolerance of individual beliefs and opinions is something he promotes and defends.

[SouthNYfan]

1 hour ago, Domdab99 said:

faith - a belief in a something you can't prove. 

 

Yeah, there's a virtue worth having. 

 

 

 

"Tell a devout Christian that his wife is cheating on him, or that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to be persuaded only to the extent that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence what so ever." -Sam Harris

 

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by SouthNYfan
Fixed typo

[LeGOATski]

3 minutes ago, Lfod said:

McDermott also broke the playoff drought. 

 

Although I'll give you credit for bringing substance to the discussion. I forgotten about this. It at least proves the point they have brought religious influence to the team. 

On the contrary, I would say the players bring the religious influence, and McDermott is certainly in the same boat, but his purpose for that is to help them, not influence them.

 

“When you talk about providing the resources for our players and our staff – when you do that, there is mind, body and spirit involved,”

[Mickey]

17 minutes ago, Lfod said:

Some places in this world people are murdered for being Christians. They are  not scared to hide it so don't be afraid to hide you don't believe in it. Malala Yousafzai was shot in the face for standing up for womens rights. She displayed more backbone as a kid then you just represented right now. 

 

Martin Luther King Jr died  standing up for his cause. 

 

I don't care what a person believes but I'll respect them more for fighting for it. 

 

Ummm...saying that I would feel compelled to hide my agnosticism does not mean that I would. Heck, I didn't even say I was agnostic. It was a hypothetical made for the purpose of showing that I believe that the NFL is an environment that is hostile to those with certain views on religion. And really, people shouldn't have to be worried about being shot in the face, fired or assassinated because of their views on religion. Nor should they be made to feel that they are cowards if, all things considered, they would rather make their beliefs known in ways that don't result in getting shot in the face. Martyrdom is not the only way to fight oppression.

[JohnC]

48 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Peterman should count for the conversion points

Wasn't he Elaine's boss on the Seinfeld Show? 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

...faith is a requirement to root for this team the last 50 years...

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, eball said:

If there is one non-football thing I've noticed about McD it is the emphasis he places on faith when discussing the makeup of the team.  I believe he uses the phrase "family, faith, football" frequently which begs the question -- is there a place for a player on this roster who isn't a devout Christian or (perish the thought) is agnostic or an atheist?  An aspect unique to sports is the open practice of religion before, during, and after games.

 

Obviously McD can't come out and openly discriminate on the basis of religion but that's not what I'm asking.  I don't think this is a silly question and I'm not making fun of anyone -- I'm curious to hear others' thoughts and I wonder if a media member would ever ask him that question (i.e., can a player who doesn't claim religious faith as a cornerstone of his life fit into "the process" with the Buffalo Bills)?

 

I see the pattern. First look at the QB’s:

- Peterman, AJM are hard core religious 

- josh Allen Seems to at least have Rosen beaten in that category 

- when WR trades were made he gushed about Mathews being a man of faith, and every time he can mention it of anyone else... 

- they have Team prayers

- strong religious belief appears more often than not on the new guys brought in

- he’s clearly religious himself 

 

i think it matters to him. 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, Mickey said:

 I believe that the NFL is an environment that is hostile to those with certain views on religion

 

Based on what proof, exactly?

 

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

 

"can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to be persuaded only to the extent that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence what so ever." -Sam Harris

 

 

You're going to derail discussion into a polemic about epistemology and apologetics with a quote like that . . . faith is not equivalent to fideism, btw, which seems to be the assumption with those who think faith and reason are like oil and water.

[BillsFan4]

Just now, Domdab99 said:

faith - a belief in a something you can't prove. 

 

Yeah, there's a virtue worth having. 

 

 

Not to get all deep on a football message board, but...

 

Faith, in general, is absolutely a virtue worth having in my opinion. 

 

I see faith as an expression of hope for something better. 

 

 

People act in faith all the time, when there is no guarantee or certainty.

 

Like for example - Having a child. You don't know how that child's life will turn out, but you have that child anyway because you believe things will be ok.

 

or getting married. You have no idea if it will work out. You don't know if your marriage will last a lifetime, but you take a leap of faith. 

 

So much of what we hold precious relies on faith in other people. 

 

How miserable would life be, if when things were going bad you had no faith that it would get better? 

 

 

How many pro athletes would there even be if they didn't have faith in themselves that they could reach their goal? How many times in their life do you think they were told "give up and get a real job!"? I'm sure the same could be said about a lot of people who reached their ultimate goals in life, or realized their dreams. 

 

 

Anyway... lol. 

 

 

 

[Chandler#81]

18 minutes ago, Lfod said:

McDermott also broke the playoff drought.

I’ll give you this. That 4th Down Play in Baltimore HAD to be Divine Intervention.

[Sky Diver]

This type of topic usually brings the Christophobes out of the woodwork.

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, eball said:

If there is one non-football thing I've noticed about McD it is the emphasis he places on faith when discussing the makeup of the team.  I believe he uses the phrase "family, faith, football" frequently which begs the question -- is there a place for a player on this roster who isn't a devout Christian or (perish the thought) is agnostic or an atheist?  An aspect unique to sports is the open practice of religion before, during, and after games.

 

Obviously McD can't come out and openly discriminate on the basis of religion but that's not what I'm asking.  I don't think this is a silly question and I'm not making fun of anyone -- I'm curious to hear others' thoughts and I wonder if a media member would ever ask him that question (i.e., can a player who doesn't claim religious faith as a cornerstone of his life fit into "the process" with the Buffalo Bills)?

I actually think you're onto something unless I'm reading the tea leaves correctly. It does seem to be a thing. 

[stuvian]

[Domdab99]

33 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

Not to get all deep on a football message board, but...

 

Faith, in general, is absolutely a virtue worth having in my opinion. 

 

I see faith as an expression of hope for something better. 

 

 

People act in faith all the time, when there is no guarantee or certainty.

 

Like for example - Having a child. You don't know how that child's life will turn out, but you have that child anyway because you believe things will be ok.

 

or getting married. You have no idea if it will work out. You don't know if your marriage will last a lifetime, but you take a leap of faith. 

 

So much of what we hold precious relies on faith in other people. 

 

How miserable would life be, if when things were going bad you had no faith that it would get better? 

 

 

How many pro athletes would there even be if they didn't have faith in themselves that they could reach their goal? How many times in their life do you think they were told "give up and get a real job!"? I'm sure the same could be said about a lot of people who reached their ultimate goals in life, or realized their dreams. 

 

 

Anyway... lol. 

 

 

 

 

Those are all things that have some expectation of being or becoming true. I’m obviously talking about religious faith. 

 

I have faith in my wife because I know her and have experienced her love and care for me personally.

 

i have faith that the sun will rise in the morning, because there is no evidence that says it won’t. At least, not tomorrow. 

 

These are evidence-based examples of faith.

 

not the evidence-less faith that religion is based on. 

[Punching Bag]

2 hours ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

Don’t care if these guys hail Satan in their spare time, just win football games.

Satan is already claimed as a patron by P*ts.

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

For what it's worth, this is Sean McDermott's high school senior portrait:

 

 

Just for those who do not know that is George Michael from Faith Remastered album (I had no idea, I did google search of image)

 

Here is Gungy's