Solomon Grundy Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: Jackson is most definitely a running QB. He is not merely a mobile passer. And yeah, NFL players all played in college, but only the best of the best make the NFL. It's a completely different level and you know it. Much faster and harder hitting. Toss Mariota on my list as well. Dinged up a lot already. Sure, it's not a perfect science, but I see a greater risk in Jackson and his build than any of the pocket guys. JMO, and my reasoning. You guys are looking at his first 2 years in college. If you study last season he was less likely to run. He was able to go through progressions and throw the ball unless his line broke down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Just now, the skycap said: You guys are looking at his first 2 years in college. If you study last season he was less likely to run. He was able to go through progressions and throw the ball unless his line broke down. No, he wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 1 minute ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: His career attempts divided by his career games played. If you want it by year is was 13.6 in '15, 20 in '16, and 17.8 in '17. Designed run attempts or because of breakdown of his porous line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: Sure, it's not a perfect science, but I see a greater risk in Jackson and his build than any of the pocket guys. JMO, and my reasoning. I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Is it "QB who are in the pocket are 'protected' while QB who run leave the pocket and get slammed'? The thing is, even pocket QB leave the pocket (roll out) or, out of competitiveness, run when they get the chance. When they do, some of them slide well (Cousins has a pretty slide, so does Wilson). Some of them don't slide, or suck at sliding - one QB was described as "starting his slide like a dog squatting to take a crap on your lawn". If QB in a close game and they don't run to move the chains when they could, or they slide instead of going for the 1st down, we're on them like flies on sh** (Orton). If they do run, they're (IMO) more likely to get hurt than a QB who can really run as long as you can persuade him not to hurdle people or put his shoulder down. I mean if you think about it logically, running backs aren't hurt proportionately given how often they run. It matters if you know how to take a hit, if you're prepared to take a hit, or if running is something you don't do naturally or regularly. Anyway, I understand your reasoning I'm just not sure actual QB injuries bear it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: No, he wasn't. Petrino and his QB coach said that was part of his maturation process, but you know better I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, the skycap said: Designed run attempts or because of breakdown of his porous line? Honestly, it doesn't matter. If his habit is to run when things break down it is a bad habit at the next level. 2 minutes ago, the skycap said: Petrino and his QB coach said that was part of his maturation process, but you know better I do. His coaches are trying to get him drafted higher? Color me surprised. Across all of his college years he never ran the ball on fewer than 35% of his total attempts. That's a running QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: No, he wasn't. The OC in the pros is not going to call the same game for him as was called in college. Because he is such a marvelous athlete he is going to be elusive, as was Taylor, and avoid some hits. What Jackson can do is extend the play and throw it downfield to the receivers. Your concern about Lamar's durability because of his (current) thin frame is merited. But the same durability issue can be directed toward Rosen who is less elusive and has a history of injuries. Jackson is not my preferred qb from this draft class. But I am becoming more comfortable with taking him at our draft position and reap the benefit of keeping our picks. Edited April 23, 2018 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, JohnC said: The OC in the pros is not going to call the same game for him as was called in college. Because he is such a marvelous athlete he is going to be elusive, as was Taylor, and avoid some hits. What Jackson can do is extend the play and throw it downfield to the receivers. Your concern about Lamar's durability because of his (current) thin frame is merited. But the same durability issue can be directed toward Rosen who is less elusive and has a history of injuries. Jackson is not my preferred qb from this draft class. But I am becoming more comfortable with taking him as our draft position and reap the benefit of keeping our picks. That is not my concern whatsoever with Jackson. My concern is that his instinct is to tuck and run because he's used to being the best athlete on the field by a wide margin. That is a habit that very rarely leads to success in the NFL. It's also a habit that is very difficult to break. Edited April 23, 2018 by BuffaloHokie13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 1 minute ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: That is not my concern whatsoever with Jackson. My concern is that his instinct is to tuck and run because he's used to being the best athlete on the field by a wide margin. That is a habit that very rarely leads to success in the NFL. I don't see Lamar playing right away unless on a situational basis. That's where coaching and receptiveness to coaching comes in. From what I have read about him he is a worker and diligently prepares. As with every qb the smart organizations design offenses to take advantage of their assets. My concern isn't so much about his running as it is being smart about it. I'm more confident about his ability to adjust to the pro game than you are. Are there risks associated with his style of play? Of course. But there is a different yet corresponding risk for a more stationary qb such as Rosen. I'm not saying Lamar is a better prospect than Rosen because I don't believe that is the case. But every qb has to adjust their game to survive the more physical and punishing pro game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, the skycap said: You guys are looking at his first 2 years in college. If you study last season he was less likely to run. He was able to go through progressions and throw the ball unless his line broke down. I don't think that's accurate, Skycap. Guy had 163 runs Freshman year, 260 runs Sophomore year and 232 runs Junior year. He ran - a Lot. And a lot of it was part of the game plan - I think someone said 70% of Jackson's runs were designed runs for him. OTOH, I think I understand what you're trying to say and I see it too. When he's supposed to pass, he moves to maneuver clear of pressure, make his progressions, and pass. I think the problem is the term "running QB" . Its usual meaning is a QB who makes one read, and if it isn't there and there's pressure, bails out of the pocket and makes yards with his legs. Tyrod Taylor in college would be an example. The Lamar Jackson paradox is that he was an explosive and very productive runner, who was also very productive as a passer on a comparable level to top pocket QB. The term "running QB" doesn't adequately describe his passing abilities, but for people who worry that running QB in the NFL are more likely to get killed, you can't get away from the fact that the guy ran in college - a lot. 13 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: That is not my concern whatsoever with Jackson. My concern is that his instinct is to tuck and run because he's used to being the best athlete on the field by a wide margin. That is a habit that very rarely leads to success in the NFL. There, I think, your concern is misplaced. Skycap has a point that last year, Jackson made big strides towards staying with the pass play and going through progressions. Petrino has said they worked hard on that last off-season - that he would whistle plays dead in practice whenever Jackson would take off, to make the point if it was a pass play, he wanted Jackson to pass. The results could be seen on the field. I guess I'm saying I think both of you are right? Jackson runs a lot, and that didn't decrease much (maybe 2-3 run attempts per game less), but a number of respected evaluators commented that they could see big strides in his game as far as going through progressions and moving to get away from pressure/reset/throw vs just taking off. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 For what it's worth: Tyrod and Russell Wilson both average about 100 Rushing Attempts per season. Cam Newton averages around 110-120. Jared Goff averages around 30, Mariota and Winston around 50, Rothlisberger around 30, Aaron Rodgers around 50 rushing attempts per season. Whether they are designed run plays or scrambles after a broken play, I expect Jackson will be up in the 100+ rushing attempt group than the 30-50 attempts we see from passers. That is a lot more opportunity for injury, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) Here's Thor Nystrom take on this from ESPN Rochester comes on around 23 minute mark https://t.co/eeJDU3TSD9?amp=1 Edited April 23, 2018 by the skycap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sack Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Jackson, Rudolph, Allen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Johnny Football is out there.... Can't be worse then Taylor...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Lamar the Superstar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedingreennc Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Lol, on all 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 7 hours ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: That is not my concern whatsoever with Jackson. My concern is that his instinct is to tuck and run because he's used to being the best athlete on the field by a wide margin. That is a habit that very rarely leads to success in the NFL. It's also a habit that is very difficult to break. No offense, but that is a false narrative...73% of his rushing yards in College came on designed runs...27% on scrambles...He's become a MUCH more disciplined pocket passer, using that incredible athletic ability to slide and deliver rather than just take off at the 1st sign of pressure...He wants to stay in the pocket and throw...No doubt Petrino was able to convince him that was the way he would get Drafted in the 1st...and it worked... https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-the-case-to-build-an-nfl-offense-around-lamar-jackson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 Josh Allen Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 (edited) I read this some where. Patrino wanted to use him as a weapon. So he had lots of planned run plays just for him. This has nothing to do with him being a running QB. He is trained to always pass first. Then after his progressions are done and there is room to run he will do it. Many videos on youtube showing this. How is that any different then Cam Newton or Elway or Rogers. Jackson is a passer and he has the stats to prove it. Also he is as good a passer as Darnold or Mayfield. The Dude can flat out play. I’m think this guy is going to be great. I’m all in on the Bills drafting him. He is a weapon and it will be difficult to contain him. This guy is a better runner then Barkley and his stats back it up. How would you like to have a QB that is a better runner then Barkley and pretty much as good a passer as anyone in this draft. I do not want to face this guy twice a year. If the Dolphins or Pats get him there will be hell to pay. Edited April 24, 2018 by Thurmanator 12074 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Anybody but Josh Allen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 I hope we don’t get to a point where nobody wants to trade down and Bills are left with Rudolph as the remaining option at 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iamkrgr Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 I chose Lamar Jackson. I don't trust Josh Allen at all. I don't trust this franchise to be patient enough to develop him properly. You think Beane or McDermott will survive 2 full seasons of Allen holding a clip board? If we don't make the playoffs both years? If AJ McCarron doesn't pan out as a decent QB option? I think Lamar Jackson has a chance to start right away and be a difference maker immediately. I don't know if he'll work out long term but his potential is pretty high. Unfortunately this franchise has been very short sighted in my lifetime. For that reason i don't think Allen is an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 (edited) Jackson. If Allen makes it to 12, it'd be a deserved freefall. This talk about him being the #1 pick is just nuts. At the same time, I desperately hope he's taken #1 so I don't have to stress about us picking him. If we draft Lamar Jackson, we can just call him LJ. Edited April 24, 2018 by transplantbillsfan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xRUSHx Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 40 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: If we draft Lamar Jackson, we can just call him LJ. Maybe by some but IMO he will be Tyrod 2.0 or Mr IR or McBeans plan F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickelCity Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Lamar really is in a different stratosphere compared to Tyrod. If he starts he's my guess for OROY. His pocket presence and passing game are criminally undervalued. I'd prefer one of the top 3, but I'll talk myself into Lamar if we draft him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 8 hours ago, KOKBILLS said: No offense, but that is a false narrative...73% of his rushing yards in College came on designed runs...27% on scrambles...He's become a MUCH more disciplined pocket passer, using that incredible athletic ability to slide and deliver rather than just take off at the 1st sign of pressure...He wants to stay in the pocket and throw...No doubt Petrino was able to convince him that was the way he would get Drafted in the 1st...and it worked... https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-the-case-to-build-an-nfl-offense-around-lamar-jackson I watched a lot of him, and that simply isn't what I saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 On 4/22/2018 at 11:51 PM, Bakin said: We have reached pick 12. Only these 3 remain on our board. You must pick one. Who do you choose? Fire Beane ... and maybe McDermott, too. At #12, a team needs to have more options for that pick than 1 position, especially when 1 of those options is a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Dude Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 I vote to fire Beane and McDermott if that’s what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 On 4/22/2018 at 10:51 PM, Bakin said: We have reached pick 12. Only these 3 remain on our board. You must pick one. Who do you choose? I know Allen & Rudolph both need time , but IYO who do you think is a bigger project and needs more time to develop ? 7 hours ago, GG said: I hope we don’t get to a point where nobody wants to trade down and Bills are left with Rudolph as the remaining option at 12. I think Rudolph may go earlier then we think I would hate if we used our 12 pick on him , but I don’t believe he will slide all the way to 22 19 minutes ago, SoTier said: Fire Beane ... and maybe McDermott, too. At #12, a team needs to have more options for that pick than 1 position, especially when 1 of those options is a 2nd or 3rd rounder. I still believe McBeane will get something done , maybe not with the Giants but Cleveland @ 4 , or Colts/Denver is still a good possibility, all depends ( of course) on what happens with the first 3 picks , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsredneck1 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 i picked rudolph. i don't see any way at all elway passes on allen and possibly a future...elway. that being said, if all 4 are gone, we would be lucky to see rudolph at 12. i don't get the knocks on rudolph. if you're a pats or steelers fan and your team skips up and nabs him to succeed your aging all pro qb, would you be saying fire everyone? what makes bills fans so much smarter than those teams for showing a high level of interest in him? i'm not going to list all of his attributes, but other than mayfield, his body of work blows the other 3 out of the water by far. i'm a parcell's rules for picking a qb guy and i'm going to stick by it. history proves it to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 (edited) And we get our QB on Friday Riley Ferguson Edited April 24, 2018 by mead107 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 11 hours ago, KOKBILLS said: No offense, but that is a false narrative...73% of his rushing yards in College came on designed runs...27% on scrambles...He's become a MUCH more disciplined pocket passer, using that incredible athletic ability to slide and deliver rather than just take off at the 1st sign of pressure...He wants to stay in the pocket and throw...No doubt Petrino was able to convince him that was the way he would get Drafted in the 1st...and it worked... https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-the-case-to-build-an-nfl-offense-around-lamar-jackson Some people can't handle the truth!! 14 hours ago, Big Blitz said: #facts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedingreennc Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 2 hours ago, mead107 said: And we get our QB on Friday Riley Ferguson I have seen his name many times, what's the scoop on him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakin Posted April 24, 2018 Author Share Posted April 24, 2018 3 hours ago, Putin said: I know Allen & Rudolph both need time , but IYO who do you think is a bigger project and needs more time to develop ? I think Rudolph may go earlier then we think I would hate if we used our 12 pick on him , but I don’t believe he will slide all the way to 22 I still believe McBeane will get something done , maybe not with the Giants but Cleveland @ 4 , or Colts/Denver is still a good possibility, all depends ( of course) on what happens with the first 3 picks , Tough one. I think both will struggle nightly with the transition. That being said - if Allen is truly physically gifted as they...and can put it all together...then great. He could be good. Rudolph has great physical traits and a better college resume. All that said I would take a shot with Allen (which means Rudolph will go to the HOF) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Quote Worst final FBS season off-target rates among top QB prospects last 3 years: Josh Allen 16.3% DeShone Kizer 14.5% Jeff Driskel 14.4% Connor Cook 13.5% C Hackenberg 13.4% Allen is not first round material Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerlyofCtown Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 On 4/23/2018 at 1:50 AM, Dadonkadonk said: I have no issue with that and then see what AJ and a new OC can do. Still think they swing for the fences but AJ and 6 high draft picks is a reasonable way to go. No thanks. If they got Allen at 12 I would be perfectly happy trading out of the first round and give up 22 for another second this year and next year. A player at 22 or in the top 10 of the second round are just as likely to succeed but at a significant discount. It does appear that there's a lot of quality depth at positions of need for us in this draft and not a lot of elite talent, That is a solid take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 10 hours ago, Putin said: I still believe McBeane will get something done , maybe not with the Giants but Cleveland @ 4 , or Colts/Denver is still a good possibility, all depends ( of course) on what happens with the first 3 picks , I'm not a great fan of moving up, and if Beane can't/won't move up, that's okay with me. I answered the specific question the OP asked: what if the Bills don't trade up and at #12 only have Allen, Jackson, and Rudolph on their board. That's gross incompetence IMO because a GM and his staff have to be prepared for virtually all plausible scenarios. Having 3 QBs go in the first 11 picks is a very plausible scenario. It's even plausible that 4 QBs could go in the first 11 picks. In either case, there are probably at least 2 or 3 blue chip prospects at other positions who fell because teams gambled on prospects who aren't nearly as good just because they want a first round QB. A team has to be prepared to take JJ Watt over Jake Locker or Blaine Gabbert if that's the way the draft works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, SoTier said: I'm not a great fan of moving up, and if Beane can't/won't move up, that's okay with me. I answered the specific question the OP asked: what if the Bills don't trade up and at #12 only have Allen, Jackson, and Rudolph on their board. That's gross incompetence IMO because a GM and his staff have to be prepared for virtually all plausible scenarios. Having 3 QBs go in the first 11 picks is a very plausible scenario. It's even plausible that 4 QBs could go in the first 11 picks. In either case, there are probably at least 2 or 3 blue chip prospects at other positions who fell because teams gambled on prospects who aren't nearly as good just because they want a first round QB. A team has to be prepared to take JJ Watt over Jake Locker or Blaine Gabbert if that's the way the draft works out. They are making every effort to do just that. Edited April 25, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lightning Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 On 4/23/2018 at 12:01 AM, John from Riverside said: Josh Allen He fits what they are looking for He is not supposed to be there at 12 Most upside of any qb in this draft Will be holding a clipboard for a while.....but..... He's going to be a epic bust. Inaccurate at best, a disaster when blitzed and slow on progessions. Anybody but Allen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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