Mike Mayock: There is no Carson Wentz in this QB class; wouldn’t put one in his top 5

[zevo]

11 minutes ago, QuoteTheRaven83 said:

 

You should try watching him play next time. He's pretty good and IMO already a top 5 QB in the league in only his 2nd year. 

Ive seen him play... you seem to be missing my point. There is no doubt he had a fantastic year. I would just pump the brakes on making him the qb standard just yet.

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, baskingridgebillsfan said:

Actually that is not his M.o. and even if it was he would still be better then Taylor who takes too long to decide what to do.  

Everything I've heard about Jackson is he's a guy who use his legs to soon, and his ability to read a defense is suspect  The only difference between him and Taylor is size. Am I wrong?

[baskingridgebillsfan]

5 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

 

Its rare for a QB of any size to "make it."    I would also argue that Mayfield is better in every statistical category than Daniels, who you're making a comparison to strictly based on height.   Most glaringly Daniels threw a very high rate of Interceptions, this wasnt the case for Mayfield.

 

 

two things it is rare of a qb of his size to make it.  Yes Chase threw more ints especially his senior year.  They are both system qbs who are undersized 

4 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

Lamar actually doesn't scramble very often. In the Petrino offense, it's basically either a read-option or he'll sit back in the pocket and attempt a pass.

 

Just now, baskingridgebillsfan said:

two things it is rare of a qb of his size to make it.  Yes Chase threw more ints especially his senior year.  They are both system qbs who are undersized 

isn't there a stat that shows he is better in the pocket than Rosen 

[aristocrat]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Everything I've heard about Jackson is he's a guy who use his legs to soon, and his ability to read a defense is suspect  The only difference between him and Taylor is size. Am I wrong?

 

Jackson does run but he also threw for over 3500 yards the past two years. tyrods most was 2700 his senior year and 700 rushing. jackson had 1600 rushing. jackson is by far the better prospect. 

[baskingridgebillsfan]

3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Everything I've heard about Jackson is he's a guy who use his legs to soon, and his ability to read a defense is suspect  The only difference between him and Taylor is size. Am I wrong?

yes .  Taylor is three years into it and he still doesn't trust his eyes.  He still won't throw a receiver open and still takes too long to process the game/

[Bray Wyatt]

Lamar Jackson is growing on me as a guy to take if we have to end up staying where we are at. The biggest thing I think is I believe Daboll would tailor an offense to him

[Hapless Bills Fan]

36 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said:

Mayock and Kiper have been wrong more than right- I tend to tune them out.

 

I would really like to see (or have the info to create for myself) a Draft Scorecard on how the pundits have actually performed in their draft.

[BigBuff423]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

If I had to put money on it, I would say they take Darnold at 1. But I’m not sure after playing a very young rookie QB they drafted high last year whose biggest issue was turnovers and replacing him with another very young rookie whose biggest issue in college was turnovers is a great idea for swift improvement. It depends how much of a long-term thinker Dorsey is. If they do take Darnold, I have to think the smart move is signing a bridge vet who can win a few games and have Sam sit for a year. 

 

Perfect, we'll trade them Tyrod for a 4th. Bam, problem solved for both teams. 

[YoloinOhio]

Just now, BigBuff423 said:

 

Perfect, we'll trade them Tyrod for a 4th. Bam, problem solved for both teams. 

Haha that’s been my ideal scenario for awhile now. But it makes too much sense so it probably won’t happen. 

[BigBuff423]

28 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Everything I've heard about Jackson is he's a guy who use his legs to soon, and his ability to read a defense is suspect  The only difference between him and Taylor is size. Am I wrong?

 

Depends on who you listen to, but if you listen to Chris Traspasso or Cover1 or Rob Quinn, they tend to think the same thing....until they watch the video. They say that this last year, he was far more working through progressions, staying in the pocket more often and being more of a quarterback. Interesting enough, one of them and I think it was Cover1, shared a story how either last year or early this year (can't remember, sorry) that during practice, Jackson threw the ball away and told the coach he could have scored on that play (had he ran), and the coach essentially said he didn't want him to be a runner, he wanted him to be a quarterback. 

 

I'm no scout or any kind of professional (well, duh) but from what I've seen Jackson has gotten MUCH better in reference to the above and his arm is outstanding. Also, FWIW, during the WGR section last week Mayock said Jackson is the most electrifying dual threat QB he's ever seen, and that included Michael Vick. 

[DrDawkinstein]

Is there a Goff? Because Id take a Goff.

[Dr. Who]

3 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

Depends on who you listen to, but if you listen to Chris Traspasso or Cover1 or Rob Quinn, they tend to think the same thing....until they watch the video. They say that this last year, he was far more working through progressions, staying in the pocket more often and being more of a quarterback. Interesting enough, one of them and I think it was Cover1, shared a story how either last year or early this year (can't remember, sorry) that during practice, Jackson threw the ball away and told the coach he could have scored on that play (had he ran), and the coach essentially said he didn't want him to be a runner, he wanted him to be a quarterback. 

 

I'm no scout or any kind of professional (well, duh) but from what I've seen Jackson has gotten MUCH better in reference to the above and his arm is outstanding. Also, FWIW, during the WGR section last week Mayock said Jackson is the most electrifying dual threat QB he's ever seen, and that included Michael Vick. 

Jackson is not my top choice, but if we choose to stand pat, I am hoping Jackson is there at 21.  I think he needs to build muscle and could use a redshirt year.  I'm afraid he'll get hurt like RG3.

[BillsVet]

56 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said:

Mayock and Kiper have been wrong more than right- I tend to tune them out.

 

If the standard of excellence is nothing less than perfect I'd like to know who you're following. And it's fake to declare them being more wrong than right, unless you're citing their mock drafts which everyone is less than perfect at.

 

Kiper is Kiper, but he's been in the draft business now 40 years and Mayock's widely known as one of the best. I prefer the latter but a case can be made for numerous types who have their share of misses.

[SouthNYfan]

4 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

If the standard of excellence is nothing less than perfect I'd like to know who you're following. And it's fake to declare them being more wrong than right, unless you're citing their mock drafts which everyone is less than perfect at.

 

Kiper is Kiper, but he's been in the draft business now 40 years and Mayock's widely known as one of the best. I prefer the latter but a case can be made for numerous types who have their share of misses.

 

Yep.

 

The draft as a whole is more wrong than right.

People love to tout hindsight like "I told you so!" When they were right on one of 20 picks they said were "can't miss"

If you disagree with every pick a GM makes for example, you are probably going to be greater than 50% correct in disagreeing with said GM.

 

It's like the people who point to Brady being a 6th round pick or Wilson being passed over for over 2 full rounds.

 

Those are the exception, not the rule.

You could also argue that the Seahawks were wrong for not taking him in the first round of they knew he would be that good (they had no idea) or the Pats made a mistake be passing Brady for 5 other rounds, then having him on the bench, until bledsoe got hurt.

They didn't know what they had either.

 

The draft is a freaking crapshoot, just gotta hope your guess is the one that pays off.

[Augie]

1 hour ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Prototypical size, very good arm strength, excellent athlete who makes plays with his legs, intelligent, reads defenses, throws with timing and anticipation, can make plays outside of structure. 

 

Yeah, but other than that....

[TheFunPolice]

Interestingly, there wasn't a "Carson Wentz" in Carson Wentz's draft either. The Rams took Goff and the Eagles were thought by many to have given up too much for Wentz.

 

Plenty of people said neither would be that great and both were great in year 2.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Everything I've heard about Jackson is he's a guy who use his legs to soon, and his ability to read a defense is suspect  The only difference between him and Taylor is size. Am I wrong?

 

Actually from what I've seen on film, you're describing Mayfield.  Mayfield tends to miss open guys downfield and squirt out of the pocket too soon.   He just doesn't use his legs as well as Jackson when he does.   I'm uncertain about his ability to read a D, find lanes, or make progressions.

 

I think you're wrong about Jackson being a taller Taylor.  Taylor at Virginia Tech had top passing yardage was 2700 yds his Sr year.  He had 315 pass attempts to 146 pass attempts, meaning 1 out of every 3 times he put his hands on the ball, he ran with it.  As far as I know, the Hokie offense was pretty much 1-read.  Taylor still struggles to read the field and make progressions.  He still doesn't throw with anticipation and he hesitates to throw into tight windows.

 

Jackson has a bunch of designed runs called for him, but he clearly reads a defense and makes progressions far more regularly (and better) than Taylor, or several other QB rated higher in the draft - Mayfield, Darnold, and Rudolph, I'd say.  He doesn't have much of an OL, so he does roll out and improv, but he also steps up into throwing lanes and moves around in the pocket to shed defenders when he has one.  His passing yardage is 3660 yds on 430 attempts which ~ Russ Wilson as a Jr.  Jackson has 232 rushing attempts this past season to 430 passes, which makes him similar to Taylor in running one out of every 3 times he puts his hands on the ball, but when he doesn't run, he's clearly ahead of where Taylor was as a Sr. in reads/progressions, throwing with anticipation, and throwing into tight windows.  His receivers are graded as "dropping" the ball the most of any of this year's top prospects: 11 or 12 percent drops, which I think explains his low completion %.  He is accurate.  Allen, whose low completion is being excused by drops and who is clearly not accurate at times, was 7 or 8% drops, Rosen is in-between.

 

Basically, Jackson has racked up similar passing numbers to Rosen (and far better than Allen) but then added the rushing contributions of a quality RB on top of it.  Reportedly he's a demon for work who shows up at 6 am to watch film.  He keeps his mouth shut (but has worked hard to improve his media ability) and is reportedly highly coachable.  He's clearly improved as a passer and a QB during his time at Louisville.  His passing mechanics and footwork are nowhere near as good as Rosen (or Mayfield), not even in the same conversation, but his natural arm is a-MAZ-ing. He flicks his wrist and the ball lasers out on a rope.  He needs to refine his lower body and mechanics, but so do Allen, Darnold, and Mayfield.  He's not as "pro ready" as a pocket-passing guy like White or Lauletta (who also have more polished mechanics), but he's got a far better arm (edit: and I've come to wonder if the pro-readiness of small program guys is illusory, because they don't know what they don't know (on reading NFL D) or what they can't do (on throwing into tight windows vs NFL DB)

 

I guess this makes me sound like a big Jackson fanboy, so I should make clear my top 2 QB choices are Rosen then Mayfield (because of better throwing mechanics and footwork at present).  But I think Jackson is under-rated and if the pundits keep dissing him off as "should be a WR or a RB" maybe we can get our hands on him without selling the farm.  And it's pissing me off to have him described as a WR.  He won the freakin' Heisman as a QB fergoshsakes!   Or to have people cite "injury concerns" for a guy who hasn't missed a game (because he runs).  Yeah, he should learn to slide.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[DCOrange]

Just now, TheFunPolice said:

Interestingly, there wasn't a "Carson Wentz" in Carson Wentz's draft either. The Rams took Goff and the Eagles were thought by many to have given up too much for Wentz.

 

Plenty of people said neither would be that great and both were great in year 2.

 

 

The point with this quote is that Mayock believed Wentz was on Andrew Luck's level as a prospect, AKA one of the best QB prospects you'll ever come across.

 

I don't think it's a big deal that one of those doesn't exist in this draft though. If a QB is good enough to be in the 6-10 range on Mayock's big board, he should probably be the #1 overall pick.

[Augie]

1 hour ago, billsfan_34 said:

Mayock and Kiper have been wrong more than right- I tend to tune them out.

 

 

 

I get that, but I trust Mayock a lot more than Kiper. A LOT MORE. 

[26CornerBlitz]

6 minutes ago, Augie said:

Yeah, but other than that....

 

  Not so hot other than that. 

[TheFunPolice]

It's not hard to imagine Wentz being a top 3-5 QB in the league going forward.

 

So if you draft a guy that is top 6-10 you are still winning a lot and doing just fine. We just need a guy who can distribute the ball and move the offense. Top 10 QB would be great too!

 

Right now our offense is run to set up a nice punt, pin the other team deep, and hope they fumble or throw a pick so we can get a FG.

Edited February 22, 2018 by TheFunPolice

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, baskingridgebillsfan said:

At the end of the day this will be a two qb draft Rosen and Darnold.   Mason Rudolph might be a solid qb but more of the Tannyhill type that you are always thinking about upgrading from .   Jackson to me is a true wild card , so much talent can it translate into playing the position .   Baker has always been over rated in my eyes. It is rare of a qb of his size to make it.  I keep looking at Chase daniels stats and highlights and I don't see a ton of difference.   

 

Chase Daniel was one of the few college QB I saw something of while he was playing (Mizzou).  I see something different in Mayfield watching film, but I can't tell you what, exactly.  Maybe I can go back and find some college film on Daniel to see if I can tell.  do you have a linky?

[BigBuff423]

IMO, to those who say Jackson is a taller version of Tyrod Taylor, I wholeheartedly disagree....Jackson far more Russell Wilson (taller) than he is Tyrod....by a mile....it's not even close. At least at this point in their respective careers.

[PolishDave]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Actually from what I've seen on film, you're describing Mayfield.  Mayfield tends to miss open guys downfield and squirt out of the pocket too soon.   He just doesn't use his legs as well as Jackson when he does.   I'm uncertain about his ability to read a D, find lanes, or make progressions.

 

I think you're wrong about Jackson being a taller Taylor.  Taylor at Virginia Tech had top passing yardage was 2700 yds his Sr year.  He had 315 pass attempts to 146 pass attempts, meaning 1 out of every 3 times he put his hands on the ball, he ran with it.  As far as I know, the Hokie offense was pretty much 1-read.  Taylor still struggles to read the field and make progressions.  He still doesn't throw with anticipation and he hesitates to throw into tight windows.

 

Jackson has a bunch of designed runs called for him, but he clearly reads a defense and makes progressions far more regularly (and better) than Taylor, or several other QB rated higher in the draft - Mayfield, Darnold, and Rudolph, I'd say.  He doesn't have much of an OL, so he does roll out and improv, but he also steps up into throwing lanes and moves around in the pocket to shed defenders when he has one.  His passing yardage is 3660 yds on 430 attempts which ~ Russ Wilson as a Jr.  Jackson has 232 rushing attempts this past season to 430 passes, which makes him similar to Taylor in running one out of every 3 times he puts his hands on the ball, but when he doesn't run, he's clearly ahead of where Taylor was as a Sr. in reads/progressions, throwing with anticipation, and throwing into tight windows.  His receivers are graded as "dropping" the ball the most of any of this year's top prospects: 11 or 12 percent drops, which I think explains his low completion %.  He is accurate.  Allen, whose low completion is being excused by drops and who is clearly not accurate at times, was 7 or 8% drops, Rosen is in-between.

 

Basically, Jackson has racked up similar passing numbers to Rosen (and far better than Allen) but then added the rushing contributions of a quality RB on top of it.  Reportedly he's a demon for work who shows up at 6 am to watch film.  He keeps his mouth shut (but has worked hard to improve his media ability) and is reportedly highly coachable.  He's clearly improved as a passer and a QB during his time at Louisville.  His passing mechanics and footwork are nowhere near as good as Rosen (or Mayfield), not even in the same conversation, but his natural arm is a-MAZ-ing. He flicks his wrist and the ball lasers out on a rope.  He needs to refine his lower body and mechanics, but so do Allen, Darnold, and Mayfield.  He's not as "pro ready" as a pocket-passing guy like White or Lauletta (who also have more polished mechanics), but he's got a far better arm

 

I guess this makes me sound like a big Jackson fanboy, so I should make clear my top 2 QB choices are Rosen then Mayfield (because of better throwing mechanics and footwork at present).  But I think Jackson is under-rated and if the pundits keep dissing him off as "should be a WR or a RB" maybe we can get our hands on him without selling the farm.  And it's pissing me off to have him described as a WR.  He won the freakin' Heisman as a QB fergoshsakes!   Or to have people cite "injury concerns" for a guy who hasn't missed a game (because he runs).  Yeah, he should learn to slide.

 

Lamar Jackson would be a better receiver.

[FeelingOnYouboty]

If you can't get excited about a QB class of Rosen, Mayfield, Darnold, Jackson then you're never going to be excited

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, PolishDave said:

 

Lamar Jackson would be a better receiver.

 

Oh, go wash Polian's bathrobe. 

[PolishDave]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, go wash Polian's bathrobe. 

 

I had to do it.  

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, PolishDave said:

 

I had to do it.  

 

Jackson's hands aren't as good as Brady's. 

[yungmack]

I hope the criticism of the QBs continues unabated. Maybe it will spook the ever incompetent Browns, as well as the Jets, Giants and Broncos, into passing on them, giving the Bills a shot at one of them.

Edited February 22, 2018 by yungmack

[Augie]

7 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Jackson's hands aren't as good as Brady's. 

 

Jackson would not have caught that ball, he would have been 20 yards farther down the field. 

[Nihilarian]

My personal opinion is that there is another Carson Wentz in this year's draft and although he isn't a day one starter I think given quality development he would be ready by mid-season.

 

I agree with Mel Kiper is the best QB in this years draft and Mayock has him listed as his #2 QB. This QB was even running the very same offense for the very same coach that coached Wentz in college. 

 

From that coach,

 

“He is about impossible to tackle,” Bobo said. “He makes play after play with his legs and his arm. When he scrambles, he scrambles to throw the ball downfield, and I’m not talking about in the flat; I’m talking about deep shots, 40-, 45 plus-(yard) ropes to backside receivers.

 

“Countless times over and over the last two years, this guy has made plays to win ballgames. He’s a truly, truly impressive kid.”

 

“He’s been a great student of the game, he’s a great leader, and he’s the ultimate competitive guy,” Bohl said.

 

“… Statistics aren’t everything. It’s how you lead, how you handle adversity, how you respond. And that kid? I’ve been very impressed with him this year.”

 

https://www.coloradoan.com/story/sports/csu/football/2017/11/02/wyoming-qb-josh-allen-a-physical-specimen-csu-football-coach-says/825858001/

[CaptnCoke11]

2 hours ago, K-GunJimKelly12 said:

I'll go on record right now, I think Darnold is going to be a bust.

 It really going out on a limb... Odds are against any of these QBs being good.  

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

42 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I get that, but I trust Mayock a lot more than Kiper. A LOT MORE. 

 

...but, but you forgot Beiber McShay.........

[dollars 2 donuts]

6 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

My personal opinion is that there is another Carson Wentz in this year's draft and although he isn't a day one starter I think given quality development he would be ready by mid-season.

 

I agree with Mel Kiper is the best QB in this years draft and Mayock has him listed as his #2 QB. This QB was even running the very same offense for the very same coach that coached Wentz in college. 

 

From that coach,

 

“He is about impossible to tackle,” Bobo said. “He makes play after play with his legs and his arm. When he scrambles, he scrambles to throw the ball downfield, and I’m not talking about in the flat; I’m talking about deep shots, 40-, 45 plus-(yard) ropes to backside receivers.

 

“Countless times over and over the last two years, this guy has made plays to win ballgames. He’s a truly, truly impressive kid.”

 

“He’s been a great student of the game, he’s a great leader, and he’s the ultimate competitive guy,” Bohl said.

 

“… Statistics aren’t everything. It’s how you lead, how you handle adversity, how you respond. And that kid? I’ve been very impressed with him this year.”

 

https://www.coloradoan.com/story/sports/csu/football/2017/11/02/wyoming-qb-josh-allen-a-physical-specimen-csu-football-coach-says/825858001/

 

 

Nihilarian I gave you a thumbs up because I was high on Allen in the fall, then he dropped off, then I dropped off and now everyone's running from him, but I am coming back around.  

 

Yes, the completion percentage is a big issue, but if the Bills don't move up and he is there at 21 or 22 I'd really consider taking him.

[TakeYouToTasker]

If I correctly remember the position of draftniks at that time, there was "no Carson Wentz" in Carson Wentz's draft either.

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

If I correctly remember the position of draftniks at that time, there was "no Carson Wentz" in Carson Wentz's draft either.

Mayock had him #1 on his board that year - that’s the whole point of what he’s saying

[TakeYouToTasker]

1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

Mayock had him #1 on his board that year - that’s the whole point of what he’s saying

Mayock is saying "I was right about Carson Wentz, so give me your clicks." 

Edited February 22, 2018 by TakeYouToTasker

[Like A Mofo]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Oh really? How? I thought his M.O. was to take off and run?

 

Lamar Jackson can run but he has his eye down the field quite a bit. He can make big plays. Just needs work on the short stuff which I believe will get better in time.

[Buffalo Bills Detective]

3 hours ago, billsredneck1 said:

i hope they take darnold at 1 and the giants take rosen at 2. we can take our 2 firsts and send tt to be their bridge for no. 4 where we take mayfiled.

WHY do you people think that ANY team would be willing to accept Tyrod Taylor in a trade scenario!!?!??!!?!?!?!???!?!???!?!??!!?!!?!?!?!??!?!!?

[Nihilarian]

2 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

If I correctly remember the position of draftniks at that time, there was "no Carson Wentz" in Carson Wentz's draft either.

Haha, so true.Most of these talking heads have no clue. Let's hope this new Bills GM with new scouts knows their QB's.

 

7 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

Nihilarian I gave you a thumbs up because I was high on Allen in the fall, then he dropped off, then I dropped off and now everyone's running from him, but I am coming back around.  

 

Yes, the completion percentage is a big issue, but if the Bills don't move up and he is there at 21 or 22 I'd really consider taking him.

Thanks.

 

Trust me, at first glance I was thinking "no way do I want the Bills to draft this kid" with his accuracy issues. Then after digging deeper and looking at his 2017 season and listening to his coach I've come around. I looked at the poor team he was on with a bad line and receivers that couldn't catch a cold. He would throw a rope right to them in the end zone and they would drop it. 

 

Don't get me wrong as he made a lot of bad plays too. I think that can be corrected with some proper coaching. He still might end up as a bust if he goes to Cleveland who will pound him into dust.

 

In Buffalo, I think he could be another Kelly as he is a bit of a gunslinger and a big tough guy with a cannon for an arm. The Bills need a QB with an arm like his to cut through the swirling winds at new era stadium. He played at Wyoming so snow won't be an issue as it is with those California boys.