Real McClappy Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 (edited) Just posted this in another thread. Once you are past the third round the likelihood of finding a guy that can come in and compete for a starting role are pretty remote. Do you really think that guys picked in late rounds are significantly better than undrafted free agents? Most of these guys come in and compete for a roster spot and at best become special teamers. The Bills may very well have picked up three starters, using those late picks to achieve that is smart. I think they have done a good job of working this draft. They may very well have filled three holes. What more do you want? Nice post Chris = spot on... Late rd picks are a complete crap shoot, This draft = 3 biggest holes are filled now. With an additional 1st rd pick next year that people are way undervaluing here. Honestly, this draft will be very satisfying if we pick up a safety, back up RB and Chad Kelly with our remaining picks. Edited April 29, 2017 by Real McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 (edited) Well, I'm coming to terms with what the Lame Duck Whaley/McDermott Ascendancy regime is doing: the slow rebuild. I would've preferred the "one last chance to go for it now" theory. To me, that would've meant keeping 10 and going for an OJ Howard, then relying on McDermott to find value later on in this deep CB class. If that didn't work, I'd have gone full rebuild (maybe just short of the Browns?) in 2018. Or I would've been o.k. with going full rebuild right now. I'm not a big fan of the slow rebuild - the one where you're afraid to shock the fans with a truly awful team, gunning for that elusive Sam Darnold next year - but that's what they're doing. And sometimes it works kind of o.k., I think? But help me here: is there an example of a current NFL good team (say, top 12 "power ranking") that didn't hit bottom before turning it around? I mean, a 6-10 type team that never had a Top 3 draft pick of their own (not a Sammy-type trade) that was able to climb up into a nice run of winning seasons? Right now only the Seahawks come to mind, so maybe that strategy depends on getting lucky with a lower round Russell Wilson. Not exactly a replicable model, is it? EDIT: here's the question. Name a team in recent NFL history (say, since 2000) that put together a 3-4 year playoff run WITHOUT having at least a 5-11 season within the two years beforehand. (that gets to the essence of my 6-10, 7-9 hell theory) Edited April 29, 2017 by The Frankish Reich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 That's the bottom line. Frankly, I think the most important issue the Bills had going into the draft was quarterback. It's always about the quarterback. The Bills have a quarterback they think might be their long-term starter. They're not sure. They want to see him one more year before they write him a big check or let him go. They needed a contingency plan in case they decide next year they don't want Taylor. There were two ways to go on a contingency plan. One was draft a QB this season, in the first or second round. The problem with that was that if Taylor turns out to be the guy, you've wasted the pick. The better way to go was what they did - put yourself in a position go after a QB next year if you decide you need one. The trade down in the first round did that for them very nicely - they still got a nice first-round talent, and they now have two picks next year to package if they have to move up in the draft. And if Taylor has a good season and the Bills decided to ride with him, they have two first-round picks next season to build with. It was the right move. it was a catch 22 for me. i wanted them to do what it took to get the team better for taylor and see what happens this year.... but i also understand he may not be the guy and sorta wanted a qb early that could sit and learn for a year or 2 and be ready to step in. either way i don't know how anyone can view this draft as anything but at least solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 BTW you see a guy you want go get him. Lets give the new coach a chance and these new players as well. 3 years down the road is when we find out if it panned out. This is always said but I don't believe it. We knew James Hardy was a bust halfway through his rookie year. We knew Troup over Gronk was a mistake by the start of his second Training Camp. We saw that when Cyrus K couldn't win a starting O Line spot in 2 years that he was a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I dont agree with yours OP - First and foremost.....the best thing that they did in the draft cannot be taken away by what is done in subsequent rounds.....which was trading to get an additional 1st rounder next year...to me that is the same thing as walking into a casino....winning 500 bucks.....then putting that 500 bucks away and just playing on the 500 bucks you had when you first walked in...... - Oh and by the way.....when they traded down they got the best rated cover corner in the draft anyway. - Now onto round 2.....I have absolutely no idea how good Mike Williams or Corey Davis are going to be.....but the drafting of Zay Jones is drawing rave reviews......the guy is a big physical sure handed flat out beast....and he would NOT have been there where we picked next. Obviously the bills had him targeted and they knew it was either trade up to get him.....or lose him to another team (lets keep in mind that while accumulating picks is great.....you actually have to select players that will help you as well....its not like we are the patriots that can just continue to trade down and draft scrubs because we have a hall of fame qb to save our bacon. - I dont know about you....but I am sick and tired of watching our RT get beat off the snap half the game.....our qb takes a lot of heat for bailing out of the pocket early but people dont talk about the fact that he cant trust his RT to hold his block to get to his second progression the majority of the time.......Dawkins is a zone scheme RT and was considered one of the very best interior guys in this draft.......he is biult like a meat locker but has very good feet. We NEEDED to find a guy that would put Jordan Mills on the bench. and once again...the bills knew they needed to trade up to get their guy because RIGHT after Dawkins was picked.......Moton when directly after. - Still have more picks in this draft so it is not over.....but these guys all look like early contributers to this team......and your not gonna find EVERY position of need in one draft. If they came out of this draft with 3 solid starters that is actually a good draft. maybe just wait and see what these guys look like first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 I would have taken a qb at #10, but this draft appears strong to me. I'd rather have quality at positions of need. I expect three starters from the top of our draft. The extra 2018 1st will help secure a qb, though unless we fail miserably, it won't be one of the top two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 I would have taken a qb at #10, but this draft appears strong to me. I'd rather have quality at positions of need. I expect three starters from the top of our draft. The extra 2018 1st will help secure a qb, though unless we fail miserably, it won't be one of the top two. How will the extra first next season help get a QB next season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nervous Guy Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 They want to find more reasons to complain. They got a grip on their gripes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 it was a catch 22 for me. i wanted them to do what it took to get the team better for taylor and see what happens this year.... but i also understand he may not be the guy and sorta wanted a qb early that could sit and learn for a year or 2 and be ready to step in. either way i don't know how anyone can view this draft as anything but at least solid. If they take a QB in the first round next season, he probably sits behind Taylor and plays in his second season. Only way he starts as a rookie is if he's clearly better than Taylor from the get go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Maiden Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 There's plenty of talent in later rounds.....hell, I even heard yesterday that on opening day of the 2015 season, there was 50 UDFA on rosters across the league.....if your scouts are solid, you can find tons of players pass the 3rd round.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Didn't McDermott start off as a scout or something that Department? Apparently which I didn't know. Makes me feel slightly better but I don't know how successful he is. Ah well at the end of the day I want us to come away with 3 starters from this draft including 1 premium starter. If that's what ends up happening I'll be happy. I just don't think trading up in the 2nd is the best way to make that happen. And I really wanted a QB with one of those mid-round picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 If they take a QB in the first round next season, he probably sits behind Taylor and plays in his second season. Only way he starts as a rookie is if he's clearly better than Taylor from the get go. 4 years spent on Baltimore's backup. That's 3 years spent on Trent, 3 on Fitzpatrick and we're going on our 3rd with Taylor. This team has a chance on a National Champion and passed again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 I like having more picks too, but I think it's easy to oversimplify these things. They saw clear differences between both Jones and Dawkins and the next guys at those positions, and opted for quality. If their judgment is right, no one will regret it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Maiden Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 48 best picks in later rounds ( 2012 article )....some good players in there.... http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1140648-48-best-late-round-nfl-draft-picks-of-all-time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 How will the extra first next season help get a QB next season? Presumably it allows one to package two ones to get higher in the first if need be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverboat Richie Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 If they take a QB in the first round next season, he probably sits behind Taylor and plays in his second season. Only way he starts as a rookie is if he's clearly better than Taylor from the get go. Shaw, They should all know this by now. You are wasting your time trying to explain something to those who will not see. Their mind is closed as far as the QB position is concerned, Whaley too for that matter, and nothing we say will make much of a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Shaw, They should all know this by now. You are wasting your time trying to explain something to those who will not see. Their mind is closed as far as the QB position is concerned, Whaley too for that matter, and nothing we say will make much of a difference. well beings that his post was directed towards me I feel obligated to respond to this..... I totally understand what he's saying and its what I also said we should do. go ahead and read our dialogue the last couple of pages before you lump me in with a certain type of person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Duffy Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 I'm not angry, I think everythiung will be ok. #Anger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Presumably it allows one to package two ones to get higher in the first if need be. From what I've read to this point there are 3 QB's to watch for 2018 that are said to be superior to any of the QB's in the 2017 class. Darnold USC, Rosen UCLA, and Allen Wyoming. Maybe others? Bundling what might be another Bills top 10 pick next year with what projects to the 24th spot for KC based on current Super Bowl odds could move the Bills up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverboat Richie Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 well beings that his post was directed towards me I feel obligated to respond to this..... I totally understand what he's saying and its what I also said we should do. go ahead and read our dialogue the last couple of pages before you lump me in with a certain type of person. If you feel you fit what I said then that's on you. I responded to Shaw. You jumped in so.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 ....merge them all into a "NEGATIVE NELLIES UNITE" thread for group therapy and commiseration.....gonna be a long weekend...................... Really, there could just be two threads on TBS. One for the "Negative Nellies" and one for the "Sunshine Boys". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezertbill Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 (edited) Because trading away a bunch of 5th round picks to move up and pick a potential starter is the worst idea in the world. 🙄 If the Bills can walk away from this draft with 3-4 starters and an extra 1st round pick next year it will be an awesome draft. No one goes 7 for 7. Some fans get it, and some don't. Some see reasons to be positive and some need reasons to complain. I guess 17 years of no playoffs get you that. Edited April 29, 2017 by dezertbill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 From what I've read to this point there are 3 QB's to watch for 2018 that are said to be superior to any of the QB's in the 2017 class. Darnold USC, Rosen UCLA, and Allen Wyoming. Maybe others? Bundling what might be another Bills top 10 pick next year with what projects to the 24th spot for KC based on current Super Bowl odds could move the Bills up. I like Mahomes, Trubisky, and Watson. I now hope, of course, the 2018 qb class still looks as strong a year from now. Scrutiny and the uncertainty of real life tends to alter things a bit. Clearly, the scenario you paint is plausible. I saw a list of five or six names, but the three you mention are the only ones I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 (edited) @billsdaily Bottom line from all the trades. The Bills dropped a total of 7 spots with the three trades, lost a 5th rd pick and gained a 1st rd next yr. Edited April 29, 2017 by MAJBobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 (edited) Really, there could just be two threads on TBS. One for the "Negative Nellies" and one for the "Sunshine Boys". How about a thread for reasonable, prudential posters who don't simply emote a knee-jerk response every time? Edited April 29, 2017 by Dr. Who Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 they get all Billsy on Day 2. I was so proud and excited that the Bills traded down from 10 to add more draft picks - including a first-rounder in 2018. The smart teams know that the NFL Draft is a crapshoot of massive proportion - and the only solution is to accumulate as many picks as possible to increase odds that the players you draft are good. Then let them battle it out in training camp. But no. They trade up and give up picks NOT ONCE...BUT TWICE. No one wastes draft picks like the Buffalo Bills. They simply cannot help themselves. They get tunnel vision on one player and are so damn paranoid that others value their guy like they do (ego) that they shoot themselves in the foot by giving away valuable picks. It's absurd how perennially dumb our organization is. It's as if each person who is hired by the Bills gets a lobotomy on their first day as employees. It's the most realistic explanation I can come up with. I like the 3 players chosen & immediate needs were addressed. I don't like future picks, but, I can live with the trade down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 @billsdaily bottom line from all the trades. The Bills dropped a total of 7 spots with the three trades, lost a 5th rd pick and gained a 1st rd next yr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CookieG Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 This is always said but I don't believe it. We knew James Hardy was a bust halfway through his rookie year. We knew Troup over Gronk was a mistake by the start of his second Training Camp. We saw that when Cyrus K couldn't win a starting O Line spot in 2 years that he was a bust. Bringing up James Hardy and the 2008 draft brings up a hypothetical relevant to the current thread. In 2008, it was no secret that the Bills were looking for a wr. Not only WR, but a "big" WR. So were many other teams. It was the Year of the Big Receiver in the 2nd round. Tom Modrak liked Jordy Nelson. Im sure he had some love for Hardy, but its come out that he thought Nelson was better. (So did I btw, but I also thought Hardy would make it). Jordy was taken about 5 picks before the Bills. So they selected Hardy as the consolation prize. What if they traded up in the 2nd to jump in front of GB? If they gave up..say their 3rd round pick to jump in front and take Jordy? Under the OP's logic...it would have wasted picks to get him. The other way of looking it at is.....we traded James Hardy and Chris Ellis for Jordy Nelson... Of all the "Big WR" in that draft...Jordy was the only one who made it...and he made it pretty big. It isn't always about taking "a" WR, or "a" OT. (an OT?) Sometimes you have to trust your own evaluations, look at who is left...and a number of other factors. As far as Zay Jones goes...he checks off an awful lot of boxes in the evaluation card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 How about a thread for reasonable, prudential posters who don't simply emote a knee-jerk response every time? Well then what the hell would I do all morning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 If you feel you fit what I said then that's on you. I responded to Shaw. You jumped in so.......... dude. whatever.... his statement was directed at a convo we were having about the situation..... good talk, bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 (edited) I'm fine with it if these guys start and play well. 5th round picks end up being garbage more often then not. We got a big physical receiver something this team lacked Edited April 29, 2017 by Scott7975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Well then what the hell would I do all morning? Yes, don't worry. You have job security for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CookieG Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Because trading away a bunch of 5th round picks to move up and pick a potential starter is the worst idea in the world. outside of one year of Karlos Williams..we haven't gotten anything out of a 5th round pick since Kyle Williams. OK...its settled..we need to draft a Williams in the 5th...we're becoming thin on people named Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgrochester55 Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 (edited) There have been bad trade up picks in the past, but this time they didn't give up that much. They lost the third rounder that they got from Thursday's trade and a fifth rounder. Buffalo has three picks in the top 2 rounds and 3 picks today, And there is an extra first rounder next year . I personally do not think that this is too bad considering that they had just 6 picks a couple weeks ago. It remains to be seen how these players do, but the strategy was sound this time. Edited April 29, 2017 by dgrochester55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 There have been bad trade up picks in the past, but this time they didn't give up that much. They lost the third rounder that they got from Thursday's trade and a fifth rounder. Buffalo has three picks in the top 2 rounds and 4 picks today, And there is an extra first rounder next year . I personally do not think that this is too bad considering that they had just 6 picks a couple weeks ago. It remains to be seen how these players do, but the strategy was sound this time. Agree with most of this, but they have two fifths and a sixth. Unless new math = 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Looks like the plan was executed perfectly. Trade back, aquire a 2018 1st and extra picks in 2017. Then use extra picks to trade up for players they covet. I'm not a fan of trade ups, even for QBs. But doing so by giving up mid round picks doesn't bother me as much. Most of the fans who are upset are judging each decision individually, but it's clear the Bills are following an overall plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgrochester55 Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Agree with most of this, but they have two fifths and a sixth. Unless new math = 3. My mistake, I'll just go ahead and edit that, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Really, there could just be two threads on TBS. One for the "Negative Nellies" and one for the "Sunshine Boys". .......if I understand, "Sunshine Boys" would be kool-aid sippers much like Jim Jones followers....."either or-black or white" will forever cause gas pains.....logical people are negative on one move and positive on another move......around here just as it was on BBMB, ANY Bflo "move" SOLELY equates to "OBD Diarrhea" IMO....now the Bears were geniuses playing hardball in moving up one spot......shades of Snyder for RG II 5/8, Ditka for Ricky or Dallas for Herschel deals....this place would melt down if the youngin's were around then and these were OBD moves....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaista2k Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Sounds like Whaley somehow got back into the draft room on Friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemma Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 If Whaley thinks this may be his last draft, he may create a final flurry of fantastical. A day we'll never forget. Maybe a midget kicker, a long snapper and an ambidextrous QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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