Bills want "success" before building new stadium

[Kirby Jackson]

We are in like year two after a $160M restoration. It's that enough to get everyone off our backs about a stadium. I would introduce a $300M restoration in 8 years to buy another 10 years. Don't need a new stadium with amenities no one in WNY can afford anyway. No one is telling KC or Green Bay to build a new stadium. Refurbs are the way to go and that way we play outside indefinitely.

$300M isn't far from the entire public contribution for a new stadium. Lucas Oil was $750M (I think). They certainly aren't going to ask for $300M to put into a 50 year old stadium (which is roughly what it will be at that point). That money will be earmarked for a new facility.

This has been discussed ad nauseum on this board. The market exists already. It largely avoids the current stadium due to weather, rowdiness etc. The owners have no pricing power in the current stadium. A new retractable roof stadium with less capacity, say 60000 seats, will provide that. The bottom line; the target customer will be a more affluent fan looking for amenities and willing to pay for them. The market exists, make no mistake. Look at the resale prices on stubhub. That money doesn't go to the Bills. The prices are artificially low right now because of the old stadium. The Bills are looking to get into the new NFL, and it will happen sooner than later. The folks willing to pay the higher prices stay away from the stadium because of the lack of amenities, weather and the type of crowds that attend those games.

 

The cost of making it " state of the art" would be enormous. You would still be left with an uncovered facility with limited use. Pass on that. A covered facility downtown is what will happen.

I think that you are right on Boatdrinks and to take it a step further the current stadium lacks one major thing. The best seating locations do not come with the best amenities. That is beyond asinine but it is the case. That would be like having floor seat holders in the NBA get lesser amenities than a guy sitting in the lower corner. Those 2 things have to me married to maximize revenue and that opportunity does not exist at New Era Field.

[Boatdrinks]

Mara can F off. And so can the Bills if they come begging for public money for a stadium. I'll cough up my seasons and walk away. Enough already. This region is dying, despite what your local politicians tell you. We've waste $750M on a solar panel factory that promised more jobs when the money hung in the balance than it will actually deliver. We're one of the few regions losing tech jobs, the key to the economy. We have tooooooo many local governments duplicating services. Poverty is up, wages are stagnant for the vast majority, and yet we want to cough up millions to an owner and a league that prints money? Sorry Terry, sell the yacht and ADK retreat, and the extra houses. It's not my role to undertake debt to secure your profit.

 

And someone else will be there to step in and claim your seasons. The new reality has been upon us for awhile and the city has managed to stave it off for a long time. Those other issues have nothing to do with the Bills getting a new stadium. The market is there and willing to pay for the amenities if a new staidium. These are rarely built entirely of public money anymore, it would be a mix of funding. Protest all you want, but believing that this situation will somehow be different from all others in the NFL is naive at best. The NFL machine is too large to fight. They get what they want and do what they want.

[PromoTheRobot]

Linky: Bills want to 'have some success' before asking for help to build new stadium

 

 

From the article:

 

...and:

 

 

So, could this be the sudden boost we need? Are we going to start seeing more and more calls go our way? Will there be a conspiracy to get the Bills to the playoffs so the NFL can see us get a new stadium?

 

Well at least you know the Pegulas are motivated.

[Boatdrinks]

$300M isn't far from the entire public contribution for a new stadium. Lucas Oil was $750M (I think). They certainly aren't going to ask for $300M to put into a 50 year old stadium (which is roughly what it will be at that point). That money will be earmarked for a new facility.

I think that you are right on Boatdrinks and to take it a step further the current stadium lacks one major thing. The best seating locations do not come with the best amenities. That is beyond asinine but it is the case. That would be like having floor seat holders in the NBA get lesser amenities than a guy sitting in the lower corner. Those 2 things have to me married to maximize revenue and that opportunity does not exist at New Era Field.

That is a very salient point . A new stadium must cater to the fan willing to pay for the best amenities. Sort of like the airline industry model. In short, you will get what you are willing to pay for. The overall design of New Era makes that difficult to impossible.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Why wait, be first all in. I got some $50 parking spots. How many do you want?

$50? Do you provide beer and a shuttle people to the gates for that price?

[teef]

maybe we should start a swear jar to help?

 

!@#$ you.

[DrDawkinstein]

File this headline under "no duh". And I've mentioned it a couple times when folks got excited about the Pegulas saying "there are no current plans for a new stadium to be discussed". "Current" being the main qualifier there.

 

Of course they don't want to discuss it right now. Tough to ask for half a billion dollars when you havent been relevant in almost 20 years.

 

But the new stadium is a given. It's just a matter of finding the right time to break it to the tax payers.

[ALF]

Poll the season ticket holders , new stadium for higher prices or refurbish . As long as the team stays here, all is good.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Dear Rodger, Please make it possible that the Bills reach the playoffs and do well so we the fans of the Buffalo Bills and the other NFL owners can enjoy a brand new stadium.

[JMF2006]

Linky: Bills want to 'have some success' before asking for help to build new stadium

 

 

From the article:

 

...and:

 

 

So, could this be the sudden boost we need? Are we going to start seeing more and more calls go our way? Will there be a conspiracy to get the Bills to the playoffs so the NFL can see us get a new stadium?

 

Super Bowl here we come;)

[thebandit27]

Why wait, be first all in. I got some $50 parking spots. How many do you want?

 

None for me, thanks. I'm happy parking at my buddy's house...and yes, I do pay.

 

My point isn't that I would rather pay more to park; my point is that I could afford to do so...that doesn't mean that I'm going to pay more than necessary.

[Boatdrinks]

Poll the season ticket holders , new stadium for higher prices or refurbish . As long as the team stays here, all is good.

Bad idea. Can't let emotion beat out what's sensible. Besides, there is a large contingent that doesn't go to the games at the current location but would be more than willing to pay higher prices at a climate controlled facility. That market would be left out of the poll. An uncovered facility has few other uses, so very little bang for the buck of public $$ being spent. The Bills focus for this will be finding newer , greater revenue streams as opposed to retaining the current one.

[John from Riverside]

Need to build a new stadium to get successful. The Indian burial ground the Ralph is on is the real problem.

I think your actually onto something here.....where is that little midget lady when we need her!

[dwight in philly]

Mara can F off. And so can the Bills if they come begging for public money for a stadium. I'll cough up my seasons and walk away. Enough already. This region is dying, despite what your local politicians tell you. We've waste $750M on a solar panel factory that promised more jobs when the money hung in the balance than it will actually deliver. We're one of the few regions losing tech jobs, the key to the economy. We have tooooooo many local governments duplicating services. Poverty is up, wages are stagnant for the vast majority, and yet we want to cough up millions to an owner and a league that prints money? Sorry Terry, sell the yacht and ADK retreat, and the extra houses. It's not my role to undertake debt to secure your profit.

i agree with the gist of your post.. i get pi$$ed when i see the mara's and their illk try to dictate.. screw em.. its up to OUR owners.

[Boatdrinks]

Rather see tax dollars go to something people enjoy, instead section 8.

 

This x 1milion ! There's enough money to be found simply in NYS Medicaid program to pay for the stadium.( I know, that's not section 8, but just saying. ) Edited March 27, 2017 by Boatdrinks

[BillnutinHouston]

As much as Joe Sixpack hates PSLs, is it not true that PSL revenue isn't part of revenue sharing? If that's right, PSLs will help Pegula competitively, maybe stop his financial people from telling him he needs to quit investing with his heart.

[Boatdrinks]

What are you basing this on?

 

 

And specifically what disadvantage are the Bills placed in without a new stadium? Every team makes (is guaranteed, really) more money than they can spend, so where's the current disadvantage with respect to the ability to put a winning team on the field?

 

Don't the Pegulas already have most owners beat in the moneybath war?

The Bills are at a disadvantage competitively with other owners on how much profit they can make. New England can make 100 million while the Bills make 35-40 million. That's a disadvantage. The revenue stream is limited when it comes to the stadium due to its limited amenities. Hard to charge more for the same or marginally better amenities. They need to tap into a more affluent fan that won't attend games at the current facility.

i agree with the gist of your post.. i get pi$$ed when i see the mara's and their illk try to dictate.. screw em.. its up to OUR owners.

 

I'm not sure wher Mara said anything controversial or incorrect. Or that he was trying to dictate anything .

[RevWarRifleman]

Need to build a new stadium to get successful. The Indian burial ground the Ralph is on is the real problem.

The Indian burial ground, is that a joke or has it actually been proven?

[FireChan]

The Indian burial ground, is that a joke or has it actually been proven?

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/sports/columnist/roth/2015/10/30/roth-buffalo-bills-ghostly-gridiron/74865990/

[Heavy Kevi]

 

There's absolutely no doubt whatsoever that this area and its fans can afford both new stadium financing and PSLs.

 

We can also afford to pay more for tickets and parking.

You throw out "we" pretty willy nilly...

 

I am not in that crowd.

 

I don't see what's wrong with the stadium now. Why does a football stadium also have to be bars, restaurants, WiFi hotspots, pro shops, and domes with lay-z-boys and escalators? I go there to watch football. I need a chunk of parking lot and a place to rest my ass.

 

And since Terry and Kim wouldn't be sharing profits with taxpayers, why in the sam hell would the taxpayers foot the bill? I know it happens everywhere but it's frickin absolutely rediculous. The fact that stuff like this happens is mind blowing, taxpayer funding for an entertainment company while many of those actual taxpayers can barely make their mortgage. Meanwhile Terry could buy vintage 1000 dollar bills just to wipe his butt with.

[JPL7]

 

Quote

Does anybody even know what this means? Tougher to compete? What are they talking about? Compete for what with who? What disadvantage?

 

This!!!!

[4_kidd_4]

Need money for a stadium?

 

Drill a well.

[kota]

not sure how a new stadium puts you at a competitive disadvantage. The patriots stadium isn't new. The raiders stadium is terrible and had a better record than both the Giants and the Bills.

 

No idea why he thinks this.

[SectionC3]

Without getting too much into the economics of it the cap is based on total revenues. Obviously, the TV deal has more than adequately addressed all of this at the present time. HOWEVER, the ratings declined for the 1st time in forever and in the next negotiations I'm not sure that we continue to see the big spike. This will coincide with teams finding more and more ways to make non-shared revenue further driving the cap. The Bills operate on a tighter budget now than other teams; that would further the gap.

 

The league obviously wants a new stadium so that the Bills can contribute more to the shared revenue portion. The Giants (as an example) contribute a hell of a lot more than the Bills. The Bills have an opportunity to be more profitable by raising more non-shares revenue. There are a million ways to do this that have been covered in one of the thousand other stadium threads. They would increase profitability, franchise value and shared revenue with a new place. It makes sense for everyone when the timing is right.

 

Lastly, the new stadiums in Vegas and LA aren't going to make less non-shared revenue than those dumps in SD, Oakland and St. Louis. They will go from some of the smaller non-shared numbers to some of the larger. This will drive he cap at an expedited rate. It all goes back to Ralph's original concern with the CBA when everyone thought that he was a crazy old man that didn't understand it. He was actually out in front of the potential pitfalls.

I agree with just about all of this, except for maybe the part about the increase in broadcast rights. We are one or maybe two negotiating cycles from an Internet company (Amazon, Google, Facebook, etc.) making a huge bid for broadcast rights. Internet ecosystems are the next networks, and the NFL is going to legitimize a streamer in the way it helped Fox in the 90s.

[Hammered a Lot]

$300M isn't far from the entire public contribution for a new stadium. Lucas Oil was $750M .

The LV taxpayers are kicking in $250 million plus for infrastructure improvements. I believe there is also a top tier stadium clause which will nail the taxpayers in the future. Hotel tax kicks in $750 million. It cost a billion to build a metal warehouse in Buffalo. If you think you can build a stadium in union based Buffalo for a billion......

$50? Do you provide beer and a shuttle people to the gates for that price?

The bandit said this area could afford higher tic and parking prices. Im just trying to help out!

[thebandit27]

The bandit said this area could afford higher tic and parking prices. Im just trying to help out!

 

We can...and as I replied to your last post: just because I can afford something, doesn't mean I'm going to pay for it before it's required of me.

[papazoid]

the cap is good for at least another 10 years. the current lease will likely be extended.

 

the pegulas are in no hurry.

 

2025 at the earliest

[Kirby Jackson]

I agree with just about all of this, except for maybe the part about the increase in broadcast rights. We are one or maybe two negotiating cycles from an Internet company (Amazon, Google, Facebook, etc.) making a huge bid for broadcast rights. Internet ecosystems are the next networks, and the NFL is going to legitimize a streamer in the way it helped Fox in the 90s.

I don't disagree with this at all. It may not even be bigger than the present deal but it may go alongside the current model and become sort of a new revenue stream.

[dorquemada]

I agree with just about all of this, except for maybe the part about the increase in broadcast rights. We are one or maybe two negotiating cycles from an Internet company (Amazon, Google, Facebook, etc.) making a huge bid for broadcast rights. Internet ecosystems are the next networks, and the NFL is going to legitimize a streamer in the way it helped Fox in the 90s.

 

Or, the alternative view, i think that the NFL as a property has probably peaked in value. Someone might overpay for rights, but not on an ongoing basis. I'm watching the TV ratings and they're still high, but down 8% last year. It'll be interesting to see if the trend continues. There's a lot of competition for eyeballs out there, not everyone wants to spend 2.5 hours every sunday watching commercials for 30 minutes of football

[Hammered a Lot]

This has been discussed ad nauseum on this board. The market exists already. It largely avoids the current stadium due to weather, rowdiness etc. The owners have no pricing power in the current stadium. A new retractable roof stadium with less capacity, say 60000 seats, will provide that. The bottom line; the target customer will be a more affluent fan looking for amenities and willing to pay for them. The market exists, make no mistake. Look at the resale prices on stubhub. That money doesn't go to the Bills. The prices are artificially low right now because of the old stadium. The Bills are looking to get into the new NFL, and it will happen sooner than later. The folks willing to pay the higher prices stay away from the stadium because of the lack of amenities, weather and the type of crowds that attend those games.

 

I say BS. On one of my properties, I park average people to multi millionaires. A couple had suites for 35-40 years. They got the amenities and perks which came with the suites. They dropped the suites because of the drought, not because of the weather, or the type of crowd. I go to the game to watch football. I don't know what amenities I need more than the game. If I needed more than I guess I would stay home.

[Mr. WEO]

 

First, as I said, don't try to make me answer for the opinions of the author.

 

While I may not know everything, I can assure you that I am the world's foremost authority on my opinion...and my opinion is that asking each tax-paying resident of Erie County to pay between $200 and $300--total--as part of stadium financing wouldn't exactly be the lead balloon that you're claiming.

 

You miss the point. Has it ever occurred to you that because it's only "a little money" from every taxpayer doesn't make it OK? It's not a vital service and the private business entity in question absolutely has the financial means to fund the stadium completely with private wealth.

 

Without getting too much into the economics of it the cap is based on total revenues. Obviously, the TV deal has more than adequately addressed all of this at the present time. HOWEVER, the ratings declined for the 1st time in forever and in the next negotiations I'm not sure that we continue to see the big spike. This will coincide with teams finding more and more ways to make non-shared revenue further driving the cap. The Bills operate on a tighter budget now than other teams; that would further the gap.

 

The league obviously wants a new stadium so that the Bills can contribute more to the shared revenue portion. The Giants (as an example) contribute a hell of a lot more than the Bills. The Bills have an opportunity to be more profitable by raising more non-shares revenue. There are a million ways to do this that have been covered in one of the thousand other stadium threads. They would increase profitability, franchise value and shared revenue with a new place. It makes sense for everyone when the timing is right.

 

Lastly, the new stadiums in Vegas and LA aren't going to make less non-shared revenue than those dumps in SD, Oakland and St. Louis. They will go from some of the smaller non-shared numbers to some of the larger. This will drive he cap at an expedited rate. It all goes back to Ralph's original concern with the CBA when everyone thought that he was a crazy old man that didn't understand it. He was actually out in front of the potential pitfalls.

 

Ratings may be down, but the NFL is still the most popular broadcast product available to advertisers. I think we all understand how new stadiums increase owner wealth, but...so what? Teams will always be getting tons or free money because nearly all the wealth is shared. Putting a competitive team on the field will not depend on how gigantic an owner's annual profit is. It will still be large.

 

Ralph was making tens of millions a year, despite relatively low nonshared revenue. HE was worried about having to pay some back if the owners who's teams were driving league popularity wanted to changed the revenue sharing formula.

 

And someone else will be there to step in and claim your seasons. The new reality has been upon us for awhile and the city has managed to stave it off for a long time. Those other issues have nothing to do with the Bills getting a new stadium. The market is there and willing to pay for the amenities if a new staidium. These are rarely built entirely of public money anymore, it would be a mix of funding. Protest all you want, but believing that this situation will somehow be different from all others in the NFL is naive at best. The NFL machine is too large to fight. They get what they want and do what they want.

 

So you believe that there is a huge (untapped?) market of Bills fans who would pay significantly higher seat prices....but they currently don't go to the games because the food/drink/seating styles (amenities) aren't fancy enough for them?

 

And where would all of the new corporate box money come from?

 

The Bills are at a disadvantage competitively with other owners on how much profit they can make. New England can make 100 million while the Bills make 35-40 million. That's a disadvantage. The revenue stream is limited when it comes to the stadium due to its limited amenities. Hard to charge more for the same or marginally better amenities. They need to tap into a more affluent fan that won't attend games at the current facility.

 

I'm not sure wher Mara said anything controversial or incorrect. Or that he was trying to dictate anything .

 

Again so what? So the owners can't stash as much profit every year. How does that matter?

 

It really can't affect the "competitiveness" of the actual football team. If an owner can't compete with Kraft or Jones in just how high their pile of money is, that's a billionaire's problem.

 

If taxpayers are going to be in the business of funding Pegula's stadium, it should be as a lender. Why give the money away? That's a sucker move. Let Terry pay interest on a loan to Erie/NYS. That's business, baby.

[Hammered a Lot]

 

We can...and as I replied to your last post: just because I can afford something, doesn't mean I'm going to pay for it before it's required of me.

Well I hope you pay your buddy the $30 it costs to park at new era field this year.

[Webster Guy]

 

Quote

Does anybody even know what this means? Tougher to compete? What are they talking about? Compete for what with who? What disadvantage?

 

 

 

exactly. It's like if you build a new stadium it gives you a better chance of winning.

 

Ask any Steelers fan about the old three rivers stadium vs Heinz, and how they can't generate the same noise in the new one because it's open on one end and the sound doesn't echo. It looks cooler but opposing qb's can audible at will, even in the red zone.

 

So in that case, new stadium= disadvantage for the home team.

 

Goodell loves to use the word compete but what he really means is 'keep up with the major markets'. He's such a weenie. This country, like any country, has cities and regions that are more populated and wealthier than others. To say with a straight face that they should all have billion dollar stadiums is ridiculous. The NFL's biggest challenge is that the owners seem out of touch with the fans (except Green Bay), and guy like Roger only makes it worse. He's the exact opposite of what they need in a commish.

[thebandit27]

 

You miss the point. Has it ever occurred to you that because it's only "a little money" from every taxpayer doesn't make it OK? It's not a vital service and the private business entity in question absolutely has the financial means to fund the stadium completely with private wealth.

 

 

No, I didn't miss the point; you never raised the question of the morality or propriety of it. Do I think that the owners should pay for their own stadium? Yes. Am I willing to fork over $300 over a multi-year tax period if asked? Yes.

 

Well I hope you pay your buddy the $30 it costs to park at new era field this year.

 

I pay him exactly what he asks, and I bring he and his wife a veritable bounty of food and drink on a weekly basis to show my appreciation for allowing us to park.

 

I know this is an issue that's close to your heart; I also don't think that saying I'm able to pay the increased costs associated with a new stadium makes me a villain in any way, shape, or form.

[Captain Murica]

This x 1milion ! There's enough money to be found simply in NYS Medicaid program to pay for the stadium.( I know, that's not section 8, but just saying. )

 

Trust me, I work in the field of mental health. I can tell you from my personal experience your tax dollars are not being put to good use and its all part of the same tree

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

You miss the point. Has it ever occurred to you that because it's only "a little money" from every taxpayer doesn't make it OK? It's not a vital service and the private business entity in question absolutely has the financial means to fund the stadium completely with private wealth.

 

 

Ratings may be down, but the NFL is still the most popular broadcast product available to advertisers. I think we all understand how new stadiums increase owner wealth, but...so what? Teams will always be getting tons or free money because nearly all the wealth is shared. Putting a competitive team on the field will not depend on how gigantic an owner's annual profit is. It will still be large.

 

Ralph was making tens of millions a year, despite relatively low nonshared revenue. HE was worried about having to pay some back if the owners who's teams were driving league popularity wanted to changed the revenue sharing formula.

 

 

So you believe that there is a huge (untapped?) market of Bills fans who would pay significantly higher seat prices....but they currently don't go to the games because the food/drink/seating styles (amenities) aren't fancy enough for them?

 

And where would all of the new corporate box money come from?

 

 

Again so what? So the owners can't stash as much profit every year. How does that matter?

 

It really can't affect the "competitiveness" of the actual football team. If an owner can't compete with Kraft or Jones in just how high their pile of money is, that's a billionaire's problem.

 

If taxpayers are going to be in the business of funding Pegula's stadium, it should be as a lender. Why give the money away? That's a sucker move. Let Terry pay interest on a loan to Erie/NYS. That's business, baby.

....the busted State is going to give it away anyway, whether to Pegula or another municipality.......so either fight for your share or watch it pissed away somewhere else....of course now the Gov is sweating bullets because any significant change in 'Bama Care could make $2.3 billion go away for Medicaid.....

[mead107]

Don't know what I will do when they build new stadium

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

Ratings may be down, but the NFL is still the most popular broadcast product available to advertisers. I think we all understand how new stadiums increase owner wealth, but...so what? Teams will always be getting tons or free money because nearly all the wealth is shared. Putting a competitive team on the field will not depend on how gigantic an owner's annual profit is. It will still be large.

 

Ralph was making tens of millions a year, despite relatively low nonshared revenue. HE was worried about having to pay some back if the owners who's teams were driving league popularity wanted to changed the revenue sharing formula.

 

 

 

I know that this is a little older but I think that it is a decent example. http://deadspin.com/the-nfl-split-7-2-billion-in-revenue-sharing-last-year-1719217695

 

The local revenue in Green Bay was about 40% of their total revenue. That percentage is much smaller in Buffalo. As of the most recent Forbes valuation the Bills total revenue was $326M and $226M was from the revenue sharing. Roughly 30% of the total revenue for the Bills is local revenue. As the new stadiums in Vegas and LA role in those teams will start bringing in $200M plus (potentially) in local revenue that will continue to drive the cap. That is coming from teams that were perennially near the Bills in terms of local (or non-shared) revenue. The gap closing between % of shared vs. % non-shared is not a good thing for the Bills. Yes, they are still profitable (now) but if that ever levels out and the cap starts to exceed the shared portion (or even take up a larger portion of it) it is a disaster for the Bills.

 

The down ratings are not a good thing for us. If the NFL goes back in the next TV negotiation (unlikely but declining ratings don't help) it will hurt the Bills. They need to find a way to close some of that gap and a new stadium certainly accomplishes it. We are never going to be the Giants or the Cowboys but we could be the Panthers.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

.....what is Pegula to gain by forking over hundreds of millions for a new stadium other than satisfying Goodell's quest for new digs?.....pretty sure season tickets were around 60,000 with the arrival of Wrecks, which leaves roughly 13,000 seats for package or game day purchase.....seat licenses in WNY are well beyond the economy of scale.....so even a reasonable Lucas Oil type domed venue ($770+ mil) gains Terry exactly what?............

[thebandit27]

.....what is Pegula to gain by forking over hundreds of millions for a new stadium other than satisfying Goodell's quest for new digs?.....pretty sure season tickets were around 60,000 with the arrival of Wrecks, which leaves roughly 13,000 seats for package or game day purchase.....seat licenses in WNY are well beyond the economy of scale.....so even a reasonable Lucas Oil type domed venue ($770+ mil) gains Terry exactly what?............

 

More luxury boxes is generally what the owners are after, because that's non-shared revenue IIRC.

 

As to seat licenses, I think that if they were smart about how they incorporated them--say a few thousand dollars for the premium seats being the top of the scale--that it wouldn't be prohibitive.