Do The Bills Have Enough "Elite" Talent?

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

I don't know though. Those guys are unreal.

 

Like even in the SB- Purdy kept testing them and it didn't work out at all. And that's with throwing to Aiyuk/samuel, very good receivers.

When he started to go to Jennings, that's where he had success.

 

I think those guys are game breakers as they dictate matchups, but that's just my opinion 

I hear you. He just didn't perform too well in key situations ImO

 

-Gave up game winning TD to Gesicki

-Set up game winning field goal for Denver after blatant 25 yard PI call.

 

And let's be honest, he got away with murder when he hauled down Darren Waller in that giants last play.

 

Thats a lot of key mistakes for an "elite" player in my humble opinion 

Ryan Fitzpatrick is better than Brock purdy... He is s a complete system quarterback and San Francisco will regret it if they give him hundreds of millions of dollars

 

Put prime fits on San Francisco with all those weapons... He'd be the guy with the MVP consideration... It's shanahan's offense

 

Fitz has 200 touchdowns in over 30,000 yards playing with mainly scrubs and bad teams

Edited March 10 by Buffalo716

[BillsFan130]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

Ryan Fitzpatrick is better than Brock purdy

 

Put prime fits on San Francisco with all those weapons...

 

Fitz has 200 touchdowns in over 30,000 yards playing with mainly scrubs and bad teams

Its not just against SF. Their defence was top 3 in the nfl all season.

 

I don't think Purdy is good as well, but at the end of the day they had a very successful passing offence all season long because of all Their weapons 

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Its not just against SF. Their defence was top 3 in the nfl all season.

 

I don't think Purdy is good as well, but at the end of the day they had a very successful passing offence all season long because of all Their weapons 

Kansas City has a very good defense.. it literally takes three levels of cohesion to have a top NFL defense

 

The best cornerbacks in the world cannot cover if you do not have a pass rush... If the opposing quarterback has five seconds in the pocket every play you will get torched by Blaine gabbert

 

And vice versa if you have the best defensive line in the world.. or one of the best that constantly collapses pockets.. lesser cornerbacks look better because they don't have to cover as long

 

A good pass rush has always masked bad coverage for 60 years

 

Kansas City has a pass rush.. and good cornerbacks

 

Of course they have a good defense they are built the right way.. they can get to the quarterback and they have guys who can cover

 

But if they couldn't get to the quarterback those guys who are covering wouldn't matter because even Hall of famers get exposed when they have to run for 5 seconds

 

The longer the play is the bane of any NFL CB... Which is why guys like Josh Allen and Patrick mahomes have so much success because they can buy time

 

 

Edited March 10 by Buffalo716

[BarleyNY]

No. I posted this thought earlier today. Other than Allen, there’s no elite player on the Bills. They have some really good ones - Oliver, Milano, Cook, Dawkins, Kincaid and probably still Diggs for another season. But no one besides Allen is keeping HCs and coordinators up at night. 

[BillsFan130]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Kansas City has a very good defense.. it literally takes three levels of cohesion to have a top NFL defense

 

The best cornerbacks in the world cannot cover if you do not have a pass rush... If the opposing quarterback has five seconds in the pocket every play you will get torched by Blaine gabbert

 

And vice versa if you have the best defensive line in the world.. or one of the best that constantly collapses pockets.. lesser cornerbacks look better because they don't have to cover as long

 

A good pass rush has always masked bad coverage for 60 years

 

Kansas City has a pass rush.. and good cornerbacks

 

Of course they have a good defense they are built the right way.. they can get to the quarterback and they have guys who can cover

 

But if they couldn't get to the quarterback those guys who are covering wouldn't matter because even Hall of famers get exposed when they have to run for 5 seconds

I know, I understand how a successful defence works.

 

The coverage has to marry the pass rush, and vice versa. Like I could argue and say Chris jones wouldn't make an impact as well if the corners can't cover for 2 seconds

 

If you don't think they are game breakers, all good. We will just have to respectfully agree to disagree 

Edited March 10 by BillsFan130

[Your Brown Eye]

No

[Einstein]

19 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Nickel corners play well over 50% of all defensive snaps on almost every team.

I think you're confusing a team playing nickel with a dedicated nickel corner playing time. Many times play their outside CB at nickel (see McDuffie who flips on and off between nickel and boundary).
 

19 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

 

Nickel is far more important than a 1 tech DT, an off ball LB, or even your safeties.

 

 

lol - no.

 

Nickel CB wasn't even an all-pro vote until literally this year.

 

Edited March 10 by Einstein

[Trev]

This isn’t difficult. Of course we do but It’s not the talent. It’s the person capping the talent potential by poor game management. That is the answer to why we havent won squat yet and until a change is made, it’ll be the same old. 

[GoBills808]

18 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I don't think Snead or McDuffie are game breakers

 

They are really good cornerbacks.. but they're not deion Sanders... And they're not moving the spread that much

 

The bills had three All pro defensive backs for years and it doesn't stop elite quarterbacks... Josh still balls out versus Kansas City

 

I think mahomes and Kelce and Chris Jones are there pure game wreckers... Hall of Fame guys who can take over any game

 

By and large part cornerbacks do not take over games unless your name is derelle revis or Deion Sanders

 

Tre White and stephon Gilmore we're both elite level corners in Buffalo that had plenty of detractors because even elite corners get beat pretty reg

 

Our own Stefan diggs has made All-Pro Ramsey look like a bench warmer at times lol

 

You need great corners but they don't move the needle much on the spread and they really don't wreck the game

 

 

 

If your threshold for elite DBs is Deion Sanders and Revis then only Champ Bailey is elite lol

 

McDuffie and Sneed are definitely elite rn

[SCBills]

No. 
 

Which is why when people outlined Joe Marino’s off-season, it seems like a very plausible and likely prediction of what the Bills will do.  
 

Which is what we’ve been doing.  
 

Build a strong team, with good depth all over. 
 

And that’s great for the regular season.  Helps you withstand injuries (to a normal

extent).  Allows for fresh bodies at certain position groups. 
 

But then we get to the Playoffs, and nobody but Josh Allen steps up in the big games.  Kelce does. Jones does.  We don’t have that surrounding Allen. 
 

So do we spend on one big time FA if one is available?  Do we trade up and sacrifice picks/future picks?   Or do we stay the course and hope Kincaid, maybe Bernard (?), whoever is at 28 etc can be those superstar big game difference makers?

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

If your threshold for elite DBs is Deion Sanders and Revis then only Champ Bailey is elite lol

 

McDuffie and Sneed are definitely elite rn

I didn't say the word elite

 

I used the word game breaker which he used also...

 

To me a game breaker is somebody who can single-handedly wreck a game... Destroy the other teams game plan

 

Patrick mahomes and Josh Allen are game breakers... Tyreek Hill is a game breaker.. Chris Jones is a game breaker.. myles garrett... guys who single-handedly can destroy a game plan

 

The bills have had two All-Pro cornerbacks here in the last 10 years.. Stefan Gilmore is going to the Hall of Fame

 

He's one of my favorite football players ever and I would never say Gilmore is a game breaker.. he's elite.. he does not destroy game plans

 

Neither does Sneed or McDuffie

 

They might be elite level NFL cornerbacks but I separate that from being a game breaker which is somebody who could single-handedly take over a game

 

The only corners I've ever seen take over a game are revis prime time and I like the champ Bailey

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11 by Buffalo716

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

No. 
 

Which is why when people outlined Joe Marino’s off-season, it seems like a very plausible and likely prediction of what the Bills will do.  
 

Which is what we’ve been doing.  
 

Build a strong team, with good depth all over. 
 

And that’s great for the regular season.  Helps you withstand injuries (to a normal

extent).  Allows for fresh bodies at certain position groups. 
 

But then we get to the Playoffs, and nobody but Josh Allen steps up in the big games.  Kelce does. Jones does.  We don’t have that surrounding Allen. 
 

So do we spend on one big time FA if one is available?  Do we trade up and sacrifice picks/future picks?   Or do we stay the course and hope Kincaid, maybe Bernard (?), whoever is at 28 etc can be those superstar big game difference makers?

Ya this is exactly it.

 

You got to think Beane knew they were missing some elite talent when they swung for the fences with Von in 2022.

 

Just unfortunately did not workout for them and it's gonna be a big relief when his contract clears off the books 

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

I didn't say the word elite

 

I used the word game breaker which he used also...

 

To me a game breaker is somebody who can single-handedly wreck a game...

 

Patrick mahomes and Josh Allen are game breakers... Tyreek Hill is a game breaker.. Chris Jones is a game breaker.. single-handedly can destroy a game plan

 

The bills have had two All-Pro cornerbacks here in the last 10 years.. Stefan Gilmore is going to the Hall of Fame

 

He's one of my favorite football players ever and I would never say Gilmore is a game breaker.. he's elite.. he does not destroy game plans

 

Neither does Sneed or McDuffie

 

They might be elite level NFL cornerbacks but I separate that from being a game breaker which is somebody who could single-handedly take over a game

 

The only corners I've ever seen take over a game are revis prime time and I like the champ Bailey

 

 

 

 

Ok maybe I used the word "game breakers" a bit loosely.

 

But they are elite players who are a massive part of a top 3 defence, who went on to win a superbowl .

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Ya this is exactly it.

 

You got to think Beane knew they were missing some elite talent when they swung for the fences with Von in 2022.

 

Just unfortunately did not workout for them and it's gonna be a big relief when his contract clears off the books 

Ok maybe I used the word "game breakers" a bit loosely.

 

But they are elite players who are a massive part of a top 3 defence, who went on to win a superbowl .

Absolutely and the bills need to keep acquiring talent via the draft to keep up

[Brandon]

No, they do not.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I didn't say the word elite

 

I used the word game breaker which he used also...

 

To me a game breaker is somebody who can single-handedly wreck a game... Destroy the other teams game plan

 

Patrick mahomes and Josh Allen are game breakers... Tyreek Hill is a game breaker.. Chris Jones is a game breaker.. myles garrett... guys who single-handedly can destroy a game plan

 

The bills have had two All-Pro cornerbacks here in the last 10 years.. Stefan Gilmore is going to the Hall of Fame

 

He's one of my favorite football players ever and I would never say Gilmore is a game breaker.. he's elite.. he does not destroy game plans

 

Neither does Sneed or McDuffie

 

They might be elite level NFL cornerbacks but I separate that from being a game breaker which is somebody who could single-handedly take over a game

 

The only corners I've ever seen take over a game are revis prime time and I like the champ Bailey

 

 

 

 

I just refer to Super Bowl re McDuffie

 

He had two huge pbu...one where he put Deebo in his pocket, one blitz pass breakup iirc.. He was their MVP in the biggest moment

[khlax3]

I personally wouldn’t consider cook elite yet but he is close and based on your criteria of top 3-4 his position his stats suggest he is.

 

2023 cook finished:

 

3rd is rushing 

8th in receiving for rb

3 all purpose yards

 

his tds were low but that’s because they just let Allen rush anytime we are inside the 5 yard line.

 

I am not disagreeing that we don’t have enough top talent but Kincaid, cook, and potentially Bernard could move into that category soon. The problem to me is we do not have top talent where it matters most. Dline, CB, WR

Edited March 11 by khlax3

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

 I understand that but the bills also have high end talent that isn't all pros either

 

Ed Oliver was top three for pure defensive tackles in the entire NFL for run stuffing tfl... Top three in sacks 

 

Purely an animal now in the upper echelon of NFL

 

Diggs , Got suplexed earlier in the season and was clearly hampered the entire year.. still caught over 105 balls for close to 1200 yards

 

That would put him 6th in the AFC... Still completely upper echelon while being banged up

 

Dalton Kincaid broke every bills rookie tight end record... And will probably be a star with Josh Allen

 

Not to mention James Cook was 3d in the NFL in yards from scrimmage for RBs.. James Cook might not be the best running back in the NFL but he had one of the best seasons

 

Douglas literally stepped into our defensive back room and played like an All-Pro from day one.. dude was literally a blanket.. he was so locked in it was very nice

 

 

Diggs being “6th in the AFC” in yards is a really fancy way of saying 13th in the NFL, barely edging out Michael Pittman, George Pickens and Davante Adam’s who all played with bum QB’s.

[Buffalo716]

11 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Diggs being “6th in the AFC” in yards is a really fancy way of saying 13th in the NFL, barely edging out Michael Pittman, George Pickens and Davante Adam’s who all played with bum QB’s.

Professional bum quarterback can still get the ball to good wide receivers 

 

Josh Gordon went for 1700 yards playing with lower echelon bum NFL quarterbacks

 

If the team thinks you're a playmaker they will get you the ball...

 

And diggs was obviously hobbled... He was slow to get up the entire second half of the season... Still had 105 catches

 

I'd wager he'll go back to 1250 yards next year in an offense that is starting to run the ball more

Edited March 11 by Buffalo716

[billsfan_34]

1 hour ago, BillsFan130 said:

Ya I agree. Taron in my opinion is a very good player, but isn't elite.

 

I was just trying to bring a little objectivity to it as he did get voted 2nd team all pro, so by the rule I made, had to technically say he was "elite"

This is why Taron is a nickel corner. He is darn good but not elite. Top nickel corners tend to fit this mold. Our biggest problem right now at the CB 2 spot is Elam…this will be a make or break year for him. 

[Kirby Jackson]

They had 1 players in PFFs top 101 of 2023. They have nowhere near enough top end talent. They are a balanced deep roster but lack “elite” talent.

[BillsFan130]

9 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said:

This is why Taron is a nickel corner. He is darn good but not elite. Top nickel corners tend to fit this mold. Our biggest problem right now at the CB 2 spot is Elam…this will be a make or break year for him. 

The good news is that Elam isn't CB2 sir.

 

Will be Douglas and Benford with most likely Elam as the 3rd

8 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

They had 1 players in PFFs top 101 of 2023. They have nowhere near enough top end talent. They are a balanced deep roster but lack “elite” talent.

Yep this is exactly my opinion on the state of their team as well

[billsfan_34]

1 minute ago, BillsFan130 said:

The good news is that Elam isn't CB2 sir.

 

Will be Douglas and Benford with most likely Elam as the 3rd

OMG I had a huge brainfart lol 😂 thanks 😊 

[SCBills]

It was supposed to be 3 years of Allen, Diggs and Von. 
 

We’re now entering Year 3 of those 3 years. 
 

KC has had 4 at all times.  Mahomes, Kelce, Jones and Hill .. then after he left Snead elevated in a widely respected elite corner. 

[BillsFan130]

3 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said:

OMG I had a huge brainfart lol 😂 thanks 😊 

Hahah no problem buddy!

[nedboy7]

Kincaid, Oliver and Bernard are coming close hopefully. 

[LABILLBACKER]

No.....just one dude who can't do it all.

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, nedboy7 said:

Kincaid, Oliver and Bernard are coming close hopefully. 

Yep. I think Oliver hit is ceiling which is fine as he's a very solid player.

 

Bernard and Kincaid def have the potential to be elite 

Edited March 11 by BillsFan130

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

I think mahomes and Kelce and Chris Jones are there pure game wreckers... Hall of Fame guys who can take over any game

 

It's hard to rank the Chiefs players in this discussion because in the realm of "elite" talent, Mahomes and Kelce and Jones are on an even higher level. But that doesn't mean Sneed, McDuffie, and a couple others on their team aren't elite players. They just aren't in the conversation for some of the greatest to ever do it.

 

This was always my argument when people would say "Mahomes has Kelce, Allen has Diggs" as if that is an equal share of talent. No one would mistake Diggs as arguably the greatest of all time at this position. Even at his best he was closer to that Sneed/McDuffie tier of elite talent. Allen has never had a teammate that could say they were in the same tier as him.

 

And that dichotomy between us and the Chiefs has only gotten worse. We didn't even have any players in that Sneed/McDuffie level by the end of this past season. It was Josh Allen sitting lonely in the highest tier, and then a big drop off from him to everyone else.

 

Kincaid I think has a good chance to reach that 2nd tier of elite players this year or next. Other than him I'm not confident saying anybody else on the roster is going to hit that level. Maybe Rousseau, he's still very young and has battled injuries the past two seasons. I'd like to say Oliver but I need to see him make a true game changing play in a playoff game before he can be part of the discussion.

[ToGoGo]

We have enough talent to win 50/50 games with the Chiefs. 
 

But to be that team that is a lock to get the #1 seed and crush the Chiefs, Ravens, and 49ers deep in the playoffs, we need more A players. 
 

We’re 1-2 All-Pros in the right position away from being a wrecking machine/potential dynasty.  

[Chaos]

2 hours ago, Robert Paulson said:

Agreed. The days are gone for spending money on special teams and d line rotations. It a barbell of 5-7 exceptional players, not a lot of very good in the middle and then cheap raw talent at the bottom to balance the cap.

 

We tried to go th very good with a few difference makers and it hasn't worked.

 

 

 

I am no great defender of Beane.  But I doubt he disagrees with your barbell assessment.  The problem is the Bells all broke.  Going into 2023, we were supposed to have the elite safety tandem in the entire NFL, Von Miller and Matt Milano on Defense and Allen, Diggs, and Knox on offense. There is your 7.  Knox lost his brother, White didn't make it back and Hyde and Miller went down, and that was the end of having 7 elite players.  Its not particularly simple to restock 3 to 4 elite players every year. 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

You need great corners but they don't move the needle much on the spread and they really don't wreck the game

 

Sneed gave up 0 TDs all season long until Shakir's TD in the divisional round. He was definitely an elite game changing CB this past season. Although I suspect the team that inevitably trades for him will be disappointed, much as great Patriots players used to leave for a different team and see their level of play diminish. The Chiefs elite coaching staff shouldn't be discounted in this discussion. They have a way of getting players to their ceiling at an astonishing rate.

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

They have a way of getting players to their ceiling at an astonishing rate.

Yes, but do they have a process?

[Governor]

2 hours ago, BillsPride12 said:

No that's why I laugh at the "Bills were the best team in the league this year if not (X,Y,Z happened)" crowd

I’m with you on talent but shouldn’t these average players be a bit better with a lot less unforced errors if we truly had an elite coach? I think so.

 

I don’t think we need 7 elite players but 4-5 would be nice.

[aristocrat]

Milano jumps in next year next to Bernard. 

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sneed gave up 0 TDs all season long until Shakir's TD in the divisional round. He was definitely an elite game changing CB this past season. Although I suspect the team that inevitably trades for him will be disappointed, much as great Patriots players used to leave for a different team and see their level of play diminish. The Chiefs elite coaching staff shouldn't be discounted in this discussion. They have a way of getting players to their ceiling at an astonishing rate.

Even the original poster agreed with me that there is a difference between a game breaker and an elite player

 

Game breakers are your few and far between players who can single-handedly take over a game

 

Destroy an opponent's game plan by themself

 

The bills have had two All pro CBs in the last 10 years.. Stefan Gilmore is going to the Hall of Fame... Tre white went an entire season without giving up one touchdown

 

Both are some of my favorite players in the last 20 years

 

Neither are game breakers as cornerbacks do not wreck game plans... 

 

Because even the best cornerback in the world will get beat when the pass rush doesn't get home.. Jalen Ramsey is a three-time first team All pro and Stefan diggs makes him look like a bench warmer at times

 

It's because cornerbacks even the best get beat... The only game breaking cornerback I have ever seen was deion Sanders and darrelle revis... Somebody else in this thread got me to agree to champ Bailey

 

That's it.. we've had two All-Pro corners here and neither were game breakers

 

They might be elite NFL cornerbacks and they certainly can make plays... They do not in fact destroy game plans...

 

There's nothing you can do when a Josh Allen or Patrick mahomes or myles Garrett get into a zone... They can single-handedly destroy your team

 

No offense to those great cornerbacks but neither of them are dictating a game like that.. in fact as I said corners really can't because you can attack seven other people, and your dependent on the pass rush... Because even the best NFL CBs can't run for 6 seconds with a good NFL wide receiver

 

But Bruce Smith can single-handedly destroy an offense

Edited March 11 by Buffalo716

[Eastport bills]

The Bills are a team that have too many holes caused by going for it and missing,  like the Rams 3 seasons ago. They failed miserably with the Miller signing and their suspect cap management forced Beane to offload some productive but older players. They still have Josh, Cook, Kincaid,Diggs, Milano,and Oliver but the other winning type players are more like solid role players,far from elite. Beane must find a quality secondary and 2 big time receivers and an edge rusher in FA and the draft. If Diggs is not the receiver of previous years, as opposed to the 2nd half of last season, getting past KC, Cinn, Baltimore will be improbable. Getting to the playoffs is great but Josh deserves to be surrounded by a better roster. 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

I used the word game breaker which he used also...

 

To me a game breaker is somebody who can single-handedly wreck a game... Destroy the other teams game plan

 

Sneed singlehandedly stopped the Ravens comeback attempt in its tracks in the AFCCG. That is the definition of a game breaker. A game where the Chiefs offense scored ZERO points in the 2nd half and still won, I think you have to admit that their secondary was the primary reason they won that game.

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sneed singlehandedly stopped the Ravens comeback attempt in its tracks in the AFCCG. That is the definition of a game breaker. A game where the Chiefs offense scored ZERO points in the 2nd half and still won, I think you have to admit that their secondary was the primary reason they won that game.

he made plays

 

That is completely different then wrecking somebody's game plan week in and out .. like Allen can do or Bruce Smith 

 

As I said Bruce Smith can destroy offensive lines all night and single-handedly dictate a game

 

Every single NFL cornerback is dependent on the pass rush... Even the best corners cannot run with good wide receivers for 5 seconds

 

They all get beat

 

So their corners success is also based on the front four

 

100% they work together

 

The best corners will not mask zero pass rush... That's why there are zero game breaking cornerbacks in the NFL

 

Sneed cannot run with top end NFL wide receivers for 5 seconds... Like all cornerbacks he is dependent on the front 4 getting home fairly quick

 

Even the elite cornerbacks cannot Chase NFL receivers across the field for 4 seconds

Edited March 11 by Buffalo716

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

he made plays

 

That is completely different then wrecking somebody's game plan week in and out .. like Allen can do or Bruce Smith 

 

As I said Bruce Smith can destroy offensive lines all night and single-handedly dictate a game

 

Every single NFL cornerback is dependent on the pass rush... Even the best corners cannot run with good wide receivers for 5 seconds

 

They all get beat

 

So their corners success is also based on the front four

 

100% they work together

 

The best corners will not mask zero pass rush

Now this is true. But it also goes both ways.

 

If your corners can't cover for 2 seconds, the pass rush doesn't matter unless the o line is blowing assignments left, right and centre.

 

It has to Be a marriage between the pass rush and coverage in order to have a great defence.

 

Chiefs had it all. Great pass rush, and great coverage which made them a top 3 defence all season long 

 

 

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Now this is true. But it also goes both ways.

 

If your corners can't cover for 2 seconds, the pass rush doesn't matter unless the o line is blowing assignments left, right and centre.

 

It has to Be a marriage between the pass rush and coverage in order to have a great defence.

 

Chiefs had it all. Great pass rush, and great coverage which made them a top 3 defence all season long 

 

 

And that's why they're a tremendous defense

 

As I said you need all three levels...

 

But when I am talking about a game breaking player.. those are first ballad Hall of Fame type guys to me

 

Guys who do destroy games

 

Sneed is an excellent corner not debating that.. I just don't think he destroys games he needs help

 

Chris Jones has destroyed offensive lines by himself.. that's why I'll call him a game breaker.. I think he's a Hall of Fame type guy

Edited March 11 by Buffalo716