HappyDays Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Tre white went an entire season without giving up one touchdown Neither are game breakers as cornerbacks do not wreck game plans... I just don't agree with this. White in his prime changed the way McDermott could call his defense. Having a CB that could singlehandedly take away an entire half of the field on his own made it so much easier to call plays without sacrificing the integrity of the defense. White also had game changing INTs many times, IIRC he had the most 4th quarter INTs in the league over like a 3 year time frame. Very good chance we edge past the Chiefs in one of our two divisional round matchups if White in his prime was on the field IMO. Edited March 11 by HappyDays 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted March 11 Author Share Posted March 11 Just now, Buffalo716 said: And that's why they're a tremendous defense As I said you need all three levels... But when I am talking about a game breaking player.. those are first ballad Hall of Fame type guys to me Guys who do destroy games Sneed is an excellent corner not debating that.. I just don't think he destroys games he needs help Ya, I mean to your point Theres a reason why top pass rushers get paid 30-35 per year and corners are 20-25. So I would agree pass rush is slightly more important, but definitely need both to have an elite defence. (As we both agree on) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Dude Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 3 hours ago, BillsFan130 said: Comparing to the chiefs and 49ers the 2 SB teams, here's how I'm going to categorize as elite: -Made 1st team/2nd all pro last year -Top 3/4 at position. (For example, Josh and Mahomes are elite even though they didn't get voted all pros) So for the bills I got 3 players but technically only 2 last year cause the Milano injury. -Josh, Milano, Taron. Chiefs: 7 players -Mahomes, Kelce, thuney, humphries, C Jones, Mcduffie, Sneed 49ers: Hufanga got hurt so technically 7 players -Mccafery, Aiyuk, T Williams, Kittle, Bosa, Warner, Hufanga, Chardavious Ward (I didn't include their fullback) So in the playoffs if you factor in injuries, bills had 2 "elite" players based on the all pro selection/my opinion. Chiefs 7 And 49ers 7 with the Hufanga injury. While the bills have a lot of good to very good players, I really think they are missing some game breakers on this team. What do you guys think? Aaron is not elite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted March 11 Author Share Posted March 11 2 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said: Aaron is not elite Who is Aaron? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 Just now, HappyDays said: I just don't agree with this. White in his prime changed the way McDermott could call his defense. Having a CB that could singlehandedly take away an entire half of the field on his own made it so much easier to call plays. White also had game changing INTs many times, IIRC he had the most 4th quarter INTs in the league over like a 3 year time frame. Very good chance we edge past the Chiefs in one of our two divisional round matchups if White in his prime was on the field IMO. Again I think you're confusing what im calling game breaking versus a tremendous or even a elite player First ballot Hall of Fame type guys who dominate their opponents week in and week out single-handedly are game breaking to me There's only 6-8 of those guys in the entire NFL... Tre white was an amazing football player before his injuries... And he is my favorite football player of the last 15 years And since cornerback is so dependent on the pass rush... They just physically cannot dominate an opponent like others can Nobody could stop JJ Watt from getting to the quarterback in his prime... Cornerbacks do not have that effect unless your deion Sanders That doesn't mean they're not tremendously valuable... The Bills lost Tre white and still had the top ranked defense... McDermott's scheme masked our corners and it still does So yeah I'd rather have elite corners than non-elite corners... But it's a fact that even the best corners get beat... And they are dependent on their pass rush because they cannot run with good receivers for 4-5 seconds Jalen Ramsey is a three-time All pro and when Josh Allen has time, diggs makes him look silly.. if Josh was getting hit in 2 seconds , Ramsey would look a lot better He's considered the best corner of the last 7 years and he's easily beatable when the pass rush isn't there 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 28 minutes ago, HappyDays said: I just don't agree with this. White in his prime changed the way McDermott could call his defense. Having a CB that could singlehandedly take away an entire half of the field on his own made it so much easier to call plays without sacrificing the integrity of the defense. White also had game changing INTs many times, IIRC he had the most 4th quarter INTs in the league over like a 3 year time frame. Very good chance we edge past the Chiefs in one of our two divisional round matchups if White in his prime was on the field IMO. The original point I was making was that we were saying both Johnson and McDuffie were elite and my point was that you can't leave Johnson in man on Deebo Samuel and expect him to dominate the rep like McDuffie did in the SB. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said: Professional bum quarterback can still get the ball to good wide receivers Josh Gordon went for 1700 yards playing with lower echelon bum NFL quarterbacks If the team thinks you're a playmaker they will get you the ball... And diggs was obviously hobbled... He was slow to get up the entire second half of the season... Still had 105 catches I'd wager he'll go back to 1250 yards next year in an offense that is starting to run the ball more Is Josh Gordon elite? I wager that we will draft a #1 WR and drop Diggs next year because he’s done being an elite WR. And he was never really even good in the postseason, so good riddance. Edited March 11 by FireChans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 We don't have even one game wrecker on D. Oliver is the only one who comes close. On O, besides Allen of course, we don't have a consistent game breaker. Diggs is not consistent throughout the season. So, my answer is No 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said: They had 1 players in PFFs top 101 of 2023. They have nowhere near enough top end talent. They are a balanced deep roster but lack “elite” talent. depth on defense maybe? Who is our solid offensive depth? I guess we have a strong TE room. That’s it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 (edited) 5 minutes ago, FireChans said: Is Josh Gordon elite? I wager that we will draft a #1 WR and drop Diggs next year because he’s done being an elite WR. And he was never really even good in the postseason, so good riddance. He was an all pro for a season He certainly dwindled the talent he had by doing drugs and stupid stuff.. so no he certainly isn't elite But his 1700 yd season showed how freaking talented he is But that's why one year , 2 year wonders.. I don't exactly crown them as future Hall of famers Give me 4 years of excellent play and then yeah I'll regard you as one of the best at your position Edited March 11 by Buffalo716 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 11 minutes ago, FireChans said: Is Josh Gordon elite? I wager that we will draft a #1 WR and drop Diggs next year because he’s done being an elite WR. And he was never really even good in the postseason, so good riddance. Prime Josh Gordon was like one of the spookiest athletes ever imo that one hard knocks he was on... he just moved different, absolute megatalent just couldn't keep it together off field 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 1 hour ago, HappyDays said: Sneed gave up 0 TDs all season long until Shakir's TD in the divisional round. He was definitely an elite game changing CB this past season. Although I suspect the team that inevitably trades for him will be disappointed, much as great Patriots players used to leave for a different team and see their level of play diminish. The Chiefs elite coaching staff shouldn't be discounted in this discussion. They have a way of getting players to their ceiling at an astonishing rate. And the TD that Shakir caught basically proved how impressive Sneed’s season was. It was a signature play by a HOF QB making a play after the initial reads weren’t there and throwing a seed to Shakir who made a toe drag catch for a TD. That’s what it took to beat Sneed for a score. Josh is literally the greatest QB in history at throwing the pass where he scrambles and then throws the sideline pass where the receiver has to reach out of bounds to catch the ball. It’s as indefensible of a play as there has ever been. To B716’s point, if CBs can’t be game breakers, then WRs can’t be game breakers. Sneed and McDuffie turned elite WRs into JAGs all season long. Steve Spagnuolo’s entire postseason defensive game plan was centered on daring QBs to beat McDuffie and Sneed. Even then, he’d call a CB blitz on the biggest plays of the game, and it worked. If you’re (not literally you, HD) trying to equate Taron Johnson and Rasul Douglas to L’Jarius Sneed and Trent McDuffie, you’re going to walk away thinking that McDermott must suck, and this thread isn’t for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 This is kind of why I was pulling my hair out watching the talking heads after the KC loss. And I have stopped watching NFL coverage since, and likely won't watch much throughout the next season. All they talked about was how Allen came up short again, and his 1 decision to go to Shakir in the endzone as costing the Bills the game. I so wanted anyone on any of those panels to ask, "name one other Buffalo Bill who made an impact play that game." Maybe Diggs & Milano are close to elite when healthy (imo), but as others have said, we have a team full of mainly good & very good players. Which is fine for winning in the regular & division titles. In the playoffs, you need more than 1 guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnNord Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 4 hours ago, BillsFan130 said: Comparing to the chiefs and 49ers the 2 SB teams, here's how I'm going to categorize as elite: -Made 1st team/2nd all pro last year -Top 3/4 at position. (For example, Josh and Mahomes are elite even though they didn't get voted all pros) So for the bills I got 3 players but technically only 2 last year cause the Milano injury. -Josh, Milano, Taron. Chiefs: 7 players -Mahomes, Kelce, thuney, humphries, C Jones, Mcduffie, Sneed 49ers: Hufanga got hurt so technically 7 players -Mccafery, Aiyuk, T Williams, Kittle, Bosa, Warner, Hufanga, Chardavious Ward (I didn't include their fullback) So in the playoffs if you factor in injuries, bills had 2 "elite" players based on the all pro selection/my opinion. Chiefs 7 And 49ers 7 with the Hufanga injury. While the bills have a lot of good to very good players, I really think they are missing some game breakers on this team. What do you guys think? To be honest…not really. You have Josh Allen and no one else on offense and that is a major problem. Diggs? Watch the game against Kansas City and tell me he’s elite. Kincaid has the chance to be elite, but he’s not there yet. Defensively I’d argue that Milano is/was elite and Taron Johnson is among the top NCB’s in the league. So that means the Bills have 3 at most. Here’s where you can fault Brandon Beane and maybe McDermott as well. They’ve drafted and signed lots of “solid” player and only a few busts which is good. But you need a few more “elite” players to get over the hump. All of the 6 out of 7 players you listed from KC were draft picks - including 3 draft picks added over the past 4 seasons. 3 of the 7 SF players you listed (and don’t think all 7 are “elite”) were acquired through FA/trade. The Bills have not landed high end talent either through FA or the draft and it’s one area that’s holding them back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 11 minutes ago, Success said: This is kind of why I was pulling my hair out watching the talking heads after the KC loss. And I have stopped watching NFL coverage since, and likely won't watch much throughout the next season. All they talked about was how Allen came up short again, and his 1 decision to go to Shakir in the endzone as costing the Bills the game. I so wanted anyone on any of those panels to ask, "name one other Buffalo Bill who made an impact play that game." Maybe Diggs & Milano are close to elite when healthy (imo), but as others have said, we have a team full of mainly good & very good players. Which is fine for winning in the regular & division titles. In the playoffs, you need more than 1 guy. It doesn't bother me tbh I mean Allen did come up short. That's the easy take and it's not wrong. Just the nuance of why is likely beyond the wherewithal of your average sports media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnNord Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 4 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said: Josh Allen makes up for it as much as he can the only other elite player is Milano Ed Oliver & Taron Johnson are close Kincaid could be elite. Diggs could be elite again, we’ll see. Ed Oliver is a good player. He’s not anywhere close to elite. He will feast on inferior talent but when facing top interior line play he disappears like he did against Kansas City 4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: It doesn't bother me tbh I mean Allen did come up short. That's the easy take and it's not wrong. Just the nuance of why is likely beyond the wherewithal of your average sports media. If you watched that game, it was clear Allen and maybe Shakir were the only guys that showed up to play. That’s why I can understand the incorrect narrative as annoying. It was Allen disappointing as much as it was the rest of his teammates and coaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 2 minutes ago, JohnNord said: Ed Oliver is a good player. He’s not anywhere close to elite. He will feast on inferior talent but when facing top interior line play he disappears like he did against Kansas City If you watched that game, it was clear Allen and maybe Shakir were the only guys that showed up to play. That’s why I can understand the incorrect narrative as annoying. It was Allen disappointing as much as it was the rest of his teammates and coaches Allen always shows up Unfortunately until he drags the rest of them across the line it's his cross to bear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo1105 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 I continue to say No as I have before. We have a good solid working well together team but not enough guys who have overwhelming talent when the lights are brightest. That guy is Allen and not much beyond that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 52 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: He was an all pro for a season He certainly dwindled the talent he had by doing drugs and stupid stuff.. so no he certainly isn't elite But his 1700 yd season showed how freaking talented he is But that's why one year , 2 year wonders.. I don't exactly crown them as future Hall of famers Give me 4 years of excellent play and then yeah I'll regard you as one of the best at your position Right. So if Josh Gordon, who was immensely talented but a supreme knucklehead, can produce gigantic numbers while being force fed, and a guy like Diggs can’t, maybe he just don’t got it no more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Super Fan Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 For the Buffalo Bills to win a Super Bowl? No the Buffalo Bills with Josh Allen is like the Buffalo Sabres with Dominik Hasek an elite superstar player with not much elite talent around them. I am saying even with Patrick Mahomes playing for the Bills instead of Josh Allen Patrick Mahomes wouldn’t have the same success here. The Bills like the 1999 Sabres are lacking and the ownership never gave Hasek the tools to finish the job in Buffalo so Hasek move on to win Stanley Cups. I hope history doesn’t repeat itself with the Bills Josh Allen. Because I don’t believe in Terry Pegula anymore than I believe in Ralph Wilson, Seymour Knox, John Rigas or Tom Golisano. Our Buffalo owners cheapness has always been a problem. Give it time Terry Pegula will screw it up with Josh Allen leaving Buffalo at some point. Again I hope I am wrong in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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