KC's final TD Play: Tom and Jerry

[Old Coot]

Interesting analysis of the play in which KC scored its winning TD.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/anatomy-of-a-play-how-the-chiefs-won-super-bowl-lviii-with-tom-and-jerry/ar-BB1iampP

 

The play originally was called "Corndog" and later "Tom & Jerry" KC scored 2 TDs in a previous Super Bowl win and the winning TD on Sunday with the play concept.

 

If you look at the links to the three plays in the above link here's what you see:

 

The WR who eventually gets the ball starts from the outside of a bunch. Here moves laterally to ward the center of the formation for about three steps and then does a quick 180 degree turn and moves laterally in the opposite direction to until he gets to the bunch at which point the ball is hiked. Kelsey (who is in the bunch) takes his man inside or up into the end zone. The man in motion runs to the flat and is wide open.

 

An excellent example of Reid scheming a guy open.

 

This is an interesting concept and one that the Bills should incorporate in their Red Zone offense.

[Thrivefourfive]

A peewee coach should be able to scheme a guy open. Know idea why the Bills are always accepting that Josh Allen has to be super man to score a touchdown.

[jkeerie]

Actually that play came from Bienemy after the Bills used a similar scheme vs the Chiefs.  

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/chiefs-eric-bieniemy-corn-dog-shuttle-super-bowl-57/lhs2ksl34ih7cji9oe1z3yc9

[Goin Breakdown]

2 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

Actually that play came from Bienemy after the Bills used a similar scheme vs the Chiefs.  

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/chiefs-eric-bieniemy-corn-dog-shuttle-super-bowl-57/lhs2ksl34ih7cji9oe1z3yc9

It's good to see we're helping out where we can. 

[jkeerie]

16 minutes ago, Goin Breakdown said:

It's good to see we're helping out where we can. 

The point is the Bills have creative plays.  They have worked for the Bills.  The Bills are constantly discredited by fans on this board beyond what they should be.

[Goin Breakdown]

1 minute ago, jkeerie said:

The point is the Bills have creative plays.  They have worked for the Bills.  The Bills are constantly discredited by fans on this board beyond what they should be.

I get it and I agree. My comment wasn't to be snarky at you. It would be nice to see the Bills beat other teams and not themselves. That's what it comes down to most losses, mistakes, miscues, missed opportunities, drops and so on. So it's kinda a bummer to see that a play that Buffalo used against KC, KC uses it and wins games. Just a hint of irony I guess. 

[Old Coot]

33 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

Actually that play came from Bienemy after the Bills used a similar scheme vs the Chiefs.  

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/chiefs-eric-bieniemy-corn-dog-shuttle-super-bowl-57/lhs2ksl34ih7cji9oe1z3yc9

Interesting. The NFL is indeed a copycat league.

[jkeerie]

Just now, Goin Breakdown said:

I get it and I agree. My comment wasn't to be snarky at you. It would be nice to see the Bills beat other teams and not themselves. That's what it comes down to most losses, mistakes, miscues, missed opportunities, drops and so on. So it's kinda a bummer to see that a play that Buffalo used against KC, KC uses it and wins games. Just a hint of irony I guess. 

Totally agree.  The Bills hurt themselves more times than not.

[BringBackFergy]

Fire McDermott!!

Fire Brady!! 
Fire Pegula!!

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, jkeerie said:

The point is the Bills have creative plays.  They have worked for the Bills.  The Bills are constantly discredited by fans on this board beyond what they should be.

 

They used a version of that concept for the Harty touchdown vs the Giants this year too. In fact it was one of Dorsey's favourite redzone calls early in the year. Josh missed a layup with one and Harty slipped over making the cut back outside on another. But then finally against the Giants they nailed it.

Edited February 14 by GunnerBill

[The Firebaugh Kid]

2 hours ago, jkeerie said:

The point is the Bills have creative plays.  They have worked for the Bills.  The Bills are constantly discredited by fans on this board beyond what they should be.

2nd most wins in the league since 2020. I don’t give a ***** I’m super proud of that. 

[Simon]

If you see the play again, Kelce's reaction is interesting.

He knows they got the matchup and that it's a TD before Mahomes even throws the ball. He never even turns around to see the Super Bowl winning play, just watches the result on the screen and starts celebrating with his back to the play.

[LABILLBACKER]

4 hours ago, Thrivefourfive said:

A peewee coach should be able to scheme a guy open. Know idea why the Bills are always accepting that Josh Allen has to be super man to score a touchdown.

We don't scheme anything for anyone.  

[Brand J]

It’s the same motion Brady called that got Khalil Shakir a crucial first down - on 4th down - against the Chiefs. 

[Mikie2times]

6 minutes ago, Brand J said:

It’s the same motion Brady called that got Khalil Shakir a crucial first down - on 4th down - against the Chiefs. 

Same concept. Kincaid cleared out. 359 mark

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6UzerC7LC8

 

[Brand J]

55 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Same concept. Kincaid cleared out. 359 mark

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6UzerC7LC8

 

Man, rewatching that last two minutes, there were plenty of opportunities to send the Chiefs home and prevent their back to back titles. Game of inches, whether it’s a foot that gets stepped on, a missed read, a throw just off the mark, we had our chances like always. 

[ganesh]

5 hours ago, Thrivefourfive said:

A peewee coach should be able to scheme a guy open. Know idea why the Bills are always accepting that Josh Allen has to be super man to score a touchdown.

It is all about execution,  Our WRs have not executed well

[Brand J]

4 minutes ago, ganesh said:

It is all about execution,  Our WRs have not executed well

And like all QBs Josh has missed some wide open players. It isn’t “everybody else but Allen” like I’ve seen on this board.

[Old Coot]

The thing that makes the back and forth motion effective is that the motion man is ofren "hidden" behind the bunch or in the case of Shakir he's hidden behind Josh when he makes his turn so the man cover loses Shakir in the crowd. That and the bunch receivers are in a position to get in the way of the man or zone cover man.

[Matt_In_NH]

Go to 2:43.  Not identical but is this scheming a guy open?   This was Dorsey.  

 

   

[billieve420]

On crucial 4th and 1 call. They called a designed run for Mahomes which they haven't done for many years and caught the 49ers totally off guard. Lot of times I have heard teams mention they knew what play was coming when playing the Bills and they saw it on film. Like in that Philly game where DB came screaming at Diggs to pick off ball before it even got to him.

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

9 hours ago, Old Coot said:

The thing that makes the back and forth motion effective is that the motion man is ofren "hidden" behind the bunch or in the case of Shakir he's hidden behind Josh when he makes his turn so the man cover loses Shakir in the crowd. That and the bunch receivers are in a position to get in the way of the man or zone cover man.

To get a receiver open these bunch formation plays rely on the one or more defenders making an incorrect coverage read and decision with some "legal" interference.

I don't know how much practice time the DB's spend on this but if I'm playing a team like the Chiefs that live or die with this stuff the coaches should be going over these situations all day long in the DB room going over film and reads and on the field the week before the game and none of the DB's should be face with a concept that is completely unfamiliar which is what seems happens.  When receivers are running open all game long like the divisional game I'm guessing our guys just aren't well prepared. 

[SaulGoodman]

5 hours ago, jkeerie said:

Actually that play came from Bienemy after the Bills used a similar scheme vs the Chiefs.  

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/chiefs-eric-bieniemy-corn-dog-shuttle-super-bowl-57/lhs2ksl34ih7cji9oe1z3yc9

People who want to discredit Mahomes have adopted the narrative that Reid’s an unrivaled football savant who creates an unfair advantage over every other coach. It’s silly. This is a great example. One of his “genius” plays that everyone prattles on about was actually stolen from the “unimaginative” Bills staff. 

 

Sure, he’s a good coach and a good offensive mind. But nothing that he does is beyond the capability or grasp of other good offensive minds. Not to mention, Nagy (and Bienemy before) calls a lot of the plays.
 

Reid is far from without faults. Before Mahomes, he was much maligned for his clock management failures and situational awareness, choking leads, getting too conservative, neglecting the run game, etc. People tear McD apart for his handling of the 13 seconds game, but Reid’a had many such instances. 
 

I find myself criticizing KC’s play calling and conservative approach a lot. I also notice a lot of other teams doing things that I wish KC would do. There are plenty of good play callers and solid offensive minds out there, including the Bills staff. 

[TheFunPolice]

we need to invest in some WRs

 

Superstars if possible

Complementary, just good

[jkeerie]

1 hour ago, SaulGoodman said:

People who want to discredit Mahomes have adopted the narrative that Reid’s an unrivaled football savant who creates an unfair advantage over every other coach. It’s silly. This is a great example. One of his “genius” plays that everyone prattles on about was actually stolen from the “unimaginative” Bills staff. 

 

Sure, he’s a good coach and a good offensive mind. But nothing that he does is beyond the capability or grasp of other good offensive minds. Not to mention, Nagy (and Bienemy before) calls a lot of the plays.
 

Reid is far from without faults. Before Mahomes, he was much maligned for his clock management failures and situational awareness, choking leads, getting too conservative, neglecting the run game, etc. People tear McD apart for his handling of the 13 seconds game, but Reid’a had many such instances. 
 

I find myself criticizing KC’s play calling and conservative approach a lot. I also notice a lot of other teams doing things that I wish KC would do. There are plenty of good play callers and solid offensive minds out there, including the Bills staff. 

You can't discredit Mahomes.  He's a great QB.  Would he be this great if he had been drafted by Chicago in 2017?  I think he'd be the kind of QB we're used to seeing but probably not with 3 SB rings.  Winning the SB is a collective...you need the right combination of QB, coaching etc.  You also need to be healthy and play your best on that day.  KC's execution vastly improved in the second half vs SF.  SF failed to execute when they had the opportunity to build a bigger lead.

[SaulGoodman]

14 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

You can't discredit Mahomes.  He's a great QB.  Would he be this great if he had been drafted by Chicago in 2017?  I think he'd be the kind of QB we're used to seeing but probably not with 3 SB rings.  Winning the SB is a collective...you need the right combination of QB, coaching etc.  You also need to be healthy and play your best on that day.  KC's execution vastly improved in the second half vs SF.  SF failed to execute when they had the opportunity to build a bigger lead.

 

Obviously he wouldn't have 3 SBs this soon if he had landed with a terrible organization, but no QB in history would. A run like this requires several things to be in place. That said, the narrative that Mahomes has had everything a QB could ask for is way off. Bad WR play this year, weak WRs last year, weak running game most years, worst run blocking in the league for a few years, bad tackle play at times, defenses that ranged from bad to average-ish until this year. And when he had a truly loaded offense in his first season, he had arguably the worst defense in the league. 

 

To this day, I don't think there's been a truly balanced KC roster. They finally put together a really good defense, and then the offense takes a big step back. I don't think it's going to get any easier for opponents the next few years, because I think Veach is going to aggressively look to bolster the offensive talent this offseason, and there will be some solid receivers available. 

[Dubie54]

2 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

we need to invest in some WRs

 

Superstars if possible

Complementary, just good

Don't disagree that another stud receiver is needed but we don't need another receiver in order to run this type of route. Diggs or Shakir could run this route all day.

[BuffaloMatt]

I miss football

[Low Positive]

14 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Same concept. Kincaid cleared out. 359 mark

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6UzerC7LC8

 

I'm just reposting this so that people who are just jumping to the end of the thread to complain that the Bills don't run plays like this can see that we ran pretty much THIS EXACT SAME PLAY against the Chiefs 3 1/2 weeks ago to pick up a 4th down. 

[Dubie54]

18 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

I'm just reposting this so that people who are just jumping to the end of the thread to complain that the Bills don't run plays like this can see that we ran pretty much THIS EXACT SAME PLAY against the Chiefs 3 1/2 weeks ago to pick up a 4th down. 

Not quite, Kincaid was set when the ball was hiked and he wasn't in motion and then changed direction as in the T&J play. Close but not the same. The thing that makes the T&J so deadly is the receiver goes in motion and the db follows, then the receiver quickly changes direction and the db gets picked by the TE as he tries to recover.

[SoCal Deek]

15 hours ago, Simon said:

If you see the play again, Kelce's reaction is interesting.

He knows they got the matchup and that it's a TD before Mahomes even throws the ball. He never even turns around to see the Super Bowl winning play, just watches the result on the screen and starts celebrating with his back to the play.

I noticed that too. Must be nice to know it’s a lock. And I remained constantly baffled as to why the Bills don’t use more roll out action with Josh in similar situations. He’s a clear threat to run it in, putting the defense in a real bind. In short….enough already with the ridiculous 50:50 fade routes to the deep pylon. Sheeessh! 

[Big Turk]

23 hours ago, jkeerie said:

Actually that play came from Bienemy after the Bills used a similar scheme vs the Chiefs.  

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/chiefs-eric-bieniemy-corn-dog-shuttle-super-bowl-57/lhs2ksl34ih7cji9oe1z3yc9

 

That's what I remember hearing...that this was a play the Chiefs took from Daboll's playbook after we used it against them 

 

 

5 hours ago, Low Positive said:

I'm just reposting this so that people who are just jumping to the end of the thread to complain that the Bills don't run plays like this can see that we ran pretty much THIS EXACT SAME PLAY against the Chiefs 3 1/2 weeks ago to pick up a 4th down. 

 

The Chiefs literally admitted they took this play from the Bills when Daboll used it to score a TD against them a few years ago.

 

Not sure how they could think this since the reason they use the play is because we used it against them.

Edited February 15 by Big Turk

[jkeerie]

6 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Obviously he wouldn't have 3 SBs this soon if he had landed with a terrible organization, but no QB in history would. A run like this requires several things to be in place. That said, the narrative that Mahomes has had everything a QB could ask for is way off. Bad WR play this year, weak WRs last year, weak running game most years, worst run blocking in the league for a few years, bad tackle play at times, defenses that ranged from bad to average-ish until this year. And when he had a truly loaded offense in his first season, he had arguably the worst defense in the league. 

 

To this day, I don't think there's been a truly balanced KC roster. They finally put together a really good defense, and then the offense takes a big step back. I don't think it's going to get any easier for opponents the next few years, because I think Veach is going to aggressively look to bolster the offensive talent this offseason, and there will be some solid receivers available. 

Okay.  This is where you're becoming a Mahomes apologist...making excuses.  What you're citing is the norm for any team in the NFL.  No team is perfect every year.  The truth is Mahomes has been given more than most if not all.   Chiefs have had no competition in their division...so they make the playoffs every year with Mahomes.  The key is that despite flaws exhibited in the regular season, the Chiefs show up and show out in the playoffs.  All those "weak" WRs played well when it counted.  And Jones it could be argued is the best DT in the game.  He's a real difference maker.

Edited February 15 by jkeerie

[Billl]

6 hours ago, Dubie54 said:

Not quite, Kincaid was set when the ball was hiked and he wasn't in motion and then changed direction as in the T&J play. Close but not the same. The thing that makes the T&J so deadly is the receiver goes in motion and the db follows, then the receiver quickly changes direction and the db gets picked by the TE as he tries to recover.

It’s not even a pick route.  The DB was literally left covering both the TE and WR.  Once Ward stayed with Kelce, Travis didn’t even bother turning around.  He knew the ball was going to a completely uncovered Hardman.

 

Reid can call the same play that other coaches do, but his are going to work more often because he sets teams up for them in advance.  He’ll put things on film in week 5 just so he can use it in the postseason, and he’ll use certain formations a certain way early in the game just to break tendency late in the game.  It always seems like he’s a step ahead.  Then sometimes he gets too cute and it looks like a clown show.   

[Reks Ryan]

21 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

We don't scheme anything for anyone.  

As noted above.  The Chiefs got the idea for the play from the Bills. Bills used  it against the Chiefs in their previous Divisional playoff matchup 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 2/13/2024 at 10:20 PM, Brand J said:

Man, rewatching that last two minutes, there were plenty of opportunities to send the Chiefs home and prevent their back to back titles. Game of inches, whether it’s a foot that gets stepped on, a missed read, a throw just off the mark, we had our chances like always. 

 

The 3rd and 9 play was killer. Not sure what the strategy was, but IMO, it should have been 4 down territory. Allen has three guys open immediately underneath if he fires the pass quickly and doesn't look deep. Neither of the three guys get a first down but they would set the Bills up in 4th and 3 or less. But at 4th an 9 i think you have no choice but to attempt the FG. By the time Allen comes back to the underneath guys it's too late and they are well covered. 

[SaulGoodman]

3 hours ago, jkeerie said:

Okay.  This is where you're becoming a Mahomes apologist...making excuses.  What you're citing is the norm for any team in the NFL.  No team is perfect every year.  The truth is Mahomes has been given more than most if not all.   Chiefs have had no competition in their division...so they make the playoffs every year with Mahomes.  The key is that despite flaws exhibited in the regular season, the Chiefs show up and show out in the playoffs.  All those "weak" WRs played well when it counted.  And Jones it could be argued is the best DT in the game.  He's a real difference maker.

Making excuses for what? I’m the only one on this board not making excuses. 

I doubt the Chiefs would miss the playoffs in any division. It’s not like the Bills face murderers row in the East. KC went 2-0 vs their toughest competition this year. 

Bills fans definitely thought KC’s receivers were weak a few weeks ago. There was zero respect for them before the game in Buffalo. What made you develop respect for them since? 30-50 yards per game and catching a majority of passes that hit them in the hands for once? 
 

 

 

[T master]

On 2/13/2024 at 7:24 PM, jkeerie said:

Actually that play came from Bienemy after the Bills used a similar scheme vs the Chiefs.  

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/chiefs-eric-bieniemy-corn-dog-shuttle-super-bowl-57/lhs2ksl34ih7cji9oe1z3yc9

 

Nut Uh ! That's cheating .

[jkeerie]

3 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

Making excuses for what? I’m the only one on this board not making excuses. 

I doubt the Chiefs would miss the playoffs in any division. It’s not like the Bills face murderers row in the East. KC went 2-0 vs their toughest competition this year. 

Bills fans definitely thought KC’s receivers were weak a few weeks ago. There was zero respect for them before the game in Buffalo. What made you develop respect for them since? 30-50 yards per game and catching a majority of passes that hit them in the hands for once? 
 

 

 

You are making excuses as to the Chiefs weren't good this year and other years and yet they still win SBs.  You are also basically saying that Mahomes has had no advantages in his career whatsover.  Where he has had more than most.  This in no way negates his individual talent.  As to his receivers...the point was all the miscues they were making all season which you point out, stopped in the playoffs.  I'm complementing the team.  They played great!  Mahomes is great!  Now...since you're such a huge Chiefs fan, please go back to their forums and bask in the glow of another Super Bowl versus coming to a competitors forum to brag about your team.

Edited February 15 by jkeerie

[Shaw66]

On 2/14/2024 at 11:04 AM, All_Pro_Bills said:

 When receivers are running open all game long like the divisional game I'm guessing our guys just aren't well prepared. 

This has bothered me a lot since that game.  KC just took big plays all game long.  It certainly looked like they knew exactly what would work when they saw certain defenses.  

 

Clearly, the players weren't prepared for what KC was doing.   I think that has to be a problem with the Bills' self-scouting.  If Reid and his coaches could see all of these opportunities and knew which routes to run to take advantage, the Bills' self-scouting operation failed, because the Bills coaches should have been able to see those opportunities.   Now, maybe Reid is just so creative he sees things others don't, but the frequency of their success getting guys open suggests that it just wasn't very hard for the Chiefs to know when and how to attack for chunk plays.  

 

I haven't looked back at the game to look with any greater care, but it's also possible Reid's success related largely to attacking the linebackers.   The absence of Milano and Bernard probably made life easier for Reid.