Joe Brady on the Allen/Davis Miscommunication

[BADOLBILZ]

17 minutes ago, zow2 said:

 

There's one thing separating the Bills with teams like KC and Philly, and it's kind of an intangible.   The DNA makeup of the Buffalo Bills does not include the clutch gene.  They can compile some of the best offensive numbers the league has ever seen,  They have an incredible knockout punch against mediocre teams... and the defense can use smoke and mirrors to be top 5 in all sorts of categories.  But the team is not clutch when it counts.  and I don't know how that gets fixed.

 

 

Preparation creates clutch performance.......therefore it prevents un-clutch performance.    

 

When the Patriots beat the Seahawks in XLIX,  remarkably the last play they practiced that Friday was the exact play where Butler jumped the route and got the interception in the end zone.

 

Now that was "next level" prep.   You don't need that level to beat some douchebag like Nick Sirianni in a big game..........but I am quite certain that the Bills lack of a "clutch" gene is a direct result of them being accepting of a lower standard of preparation.

 

That was the biggest issue for the 1990's SB Bills teams.........they started with modest expectations........got REALLY good but were always sloppy and the conference set a low bar........then when what they were doing didn't quite yield championship results they still remained confident that what they were doing was enough.   It wasn't.   

 

There is an aspect of that with these Bills.   Their GM thinks he's good enough at WR positions.........their QB thinks 6 months away from football is fine........their HC thinks he can be the DC as well even though he wasn't great at late game decisions when he was just the HC.    They either don't know what they don't know or they just don't want to pay the price.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Preparation creates clutch performance.......therefore it prevents un-clutch performance.    

 

When the Patriots beat the Seahawks in XLIX,  remarkably the last play they practiced that Friday was the exact play where Butler jumped the route and got the interception in the end zone.

 

Now that was "next level" prep.   You don't need that level to beat some douchebag like Nick Sirianni in a big game..........but I am quite certain that the Bills lack of a "clutch" gene is a direct result of them being accepting of a lower standard of preparation.

 

That was the biggest issue for the 1990's SB Bills teams.........they started with modest expectations........got REALLY good but were always sloppy and the conference set a low bar........then when what they were doing didn't quite yield championship results they still remained confident that what they were doing was enough.   It wasn't.   

 

There is an aspect of that with these Bills.   Their GM thinks he's good enough at WR positions.........their QB thinks 6 months away from football is fine........their HC thinks he can be the DC as well even though he wasn't great at late game decisions when he was just the HC.    They either don't know what they don't know or they just don't want to pay the price.

yes

 

one of the most frustrating parts of the last 3 years has been the slow realization that top to bottom soup to nuts this entire squad just does not possess the wherewithal to buckle down and finish the job

[zow2]

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Preparation creates clutch performance.......therefore it prevents un-clutch performance.    

 

Now that was "next level" prep.   You don't need that level to beat some douchebag like Nick Sirianni in a big game..........but I am quite certain that the Bills lack of a "clutch" gene is a direct result of them being accepting of a lower standard of preparation.

 

 

Maybe the Bills can start their prep by being able to send 11 men out on clutch FG defense at the end of a game.  Maybe 'ol Sean McD can actually count to 12 himself.  Just start with the little, easily controllable things.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

yes

 

one of the most frustrating parts of the last 3 years has been the slow realization that top to bottom soup to nuts this entire squad just does not possess the wherewithal to buckle down and finish the job

 

I mean how stupid is it that Diggs is out there flapping his wings like we won...way before it's over..  Or Ed Oliver, or whoever jawing with fans during the action.  Jesus, buckle down guys.

Edited November 29, 2023 by zow2

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Preparation creates clutch performance.......therefore it prevents un-clutch performance.    

 

When the Patriots beat the Seahawks in XLIX,  remarkably the last play they practiced that Friday was the exact play where Butler jumped the route and got the interception in the end zone.

 

Now that was "next level" prep.   You don't need that level to beat some douchebag like Nick Sirianni in a big game..........but I am quite certain that the Bills lack of a "clutch" gene is a direct result of them being accepting of a lower standard of preparation.

 

That was the biggest issue for the 1990's SB Bills teams.........they started with modest expectations........got REALLY good but were always sloppy and the conference set a low bar........then when what they were doing didn't quite yield championship results they still remained confident that what they were doing was enough.   It wasn't.   

 

There is an aspect of that with these Bills.   Their GM thinks he's good enough at WR positions.........their QB thinks 6 months away from football is fine........their HC thinks he can be the DC as well even though he wasn't great at late game decisions when he was just the HC.    They either don't know what they don't know or they just don't want to pay the price.

Bado -

 

I'll tell you where I disagree, but let me start by saying you're exactly right about "next level" prep.  That is what's missing.   It's completely clear when you look at the string of late-game failures, particularly in big games and playoff games.   Belichick understands "next level" prep.   

 

Where I disagree is that you then turn to WR and suggest they have the wrong players.   I don't think that's true, or to put it a different way, I think the guys they have will do just fine if they have "next level" prep.   Belichick won for years with a great QB and a lot of average players; he did it by having everyone, from the QB on down, buy into "next level" prep.  

 

I agree about Allen, and I've said it before.  He needs to be the leader in "next level" prep.  The team will follow him.  

 

And I don't agree that McDermott shouldn't be the coordinator - I think he has the same problem, whether he's the coordinator or not:  he needs "next level" prep also.  It's not that he isn't talented enough; it's that he hasn't thought about and mastered the details that he needs to.   

 

My complaint about McDermott is that by emphasizing versatility - let's be able to play every style - he sacrifices excellence in any particular style.   And I think there's a parallel when it comes to preparation:   I think he's great in the breadth of preparation ("we're going to have some preparation in everything"), but by going after breadth he sacrifices depth.   Davis can block and catches a lot of balls and all - nice breadth, but when the chips are down, has he really mastered the details that will the game?

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, zow2 said:

 

Maybe the Bills can start their prep by being able to send 11 men out on clutch FG defense at the end of a game.  Maybe 'ol Sean McD can actually count to 12 himself.  Just start with the little, easily controllable things.

 

 

 

 

I mean how stupid is it that Diggs is out there flapping his wings like we won...way before it's over..  Or Ed Oliver, or whoever jawing with fans during the action.  Jesus, buckle down guys.

yeah exactly

 

in a tight game vs the best team in the league for basically the entire season and half the starting defense decides it's a good time to go start a fight w a fan

 

mentally weak from the top on down

[26TrapDraw]

Wow a coach with accountability. Well Holy %$#t!!!!!

[ShakAttack]

1 hour ago, JÂy RÛßeÒ said:

So to Brady's quote "we knew this was coming".  This would have actually been a VERY GOOD use of a time out to ensure everyone was on the same page for this HUGE situation.  Seems like so many of our time outs are reactionary ("let's look at how they're gonna line up first"), silly ("Let's try to draw them Offside to get a first down") or wasted ("I'm gonna ice their kicker.  That's definitely gonna work").

But on a 3rd & 6 from their 22 in overtime where we potentially have 2 plays to get 6 yards, and we're sure what defense we're gonna see and which requires all pieces know how to react... 

 

Had the same thought man.  That's the GAME.  Defense is about to run an all-out blitz.  You're about to try to win the game with an option route after there has already been miscommunication on option routes during the game.  Why not call TO and make sure everyone is aligned before taking the most important snap of the game to that point??   I hate thinking about this play and would could have been, but can't help it.  It's always something or another.  SMH

[BillsSbSoon]

Mike Francesa on his podcast today said he spoke to someone who is very close to Allen and said it was Gabe’s fault and he broke the wrong way. Make of that what you will. 

[BillsFan130]

2 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

We aren't?

"That starts with me." is practically tattooed on McDermott's forehead.

When has McDermott ever taken ownership after a loss in the last two years?

 

he will either say “we didn’t execute “.

 

Or even something as ridiculous as blaming his offensive coordinator for scoring too fast at the end of the broncos game lol

[BullBuchanan]

Just now, BillsFan130 said:

When has McDermott ever taken ownership after a loss in the last two years?

 

he will either say “we didn’t execute “.

 

Or even something as ridiculous as blaming his offensive coordinator for scoring too fast at the end of the broncos game lol

After every loss. Have you seriously never heard the quote I referenced?

I didn't even listen to the postgame or any of his pressers and SURPISE! He said it again.

"“Each and every one of us has to look at ourselves,” McDermott said. “Like I told you, that starts with me.""
https://www.niagara-gazette.com/sports/sabato-sean-mcdermotts-bills-defense-came-up-small-in-another-big-moment/article_dd5beda6-8cd8-11ee-a2b9-d312178243d7.html

"Accountability" is a dumb word people use when what they really want is results. No one at any job has anyone ever said "well, I was really mad we ***** up until the guy told us he ***** up" No one cares.

[BillsFan130]

2 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

After every loss. Have you seriously never heard the quote I referenced?

I didn't even listen to the postgame or any of his pressers and SURPISE! He said it again.

"“Each and every one of us has to look at ourselves,” McDermott said. “Like I told you, that starts with me.""
https://www.niagara-gazette.com/sports/sabato-sean-mcdermotts-bills-defense-came-up-small-in-another-big-moment/article_dd5beda6-8cd8-11ee-a2b9-d312178243d7.html

"Accountability" is a dumb word people use when what they really want is results. No one at any job has anyone ever said "well, I was really mad we ***** up until the guy told us he ***** up" No one cares.

Ok I’ll give him that as he did take some responsibility there.

 

Thats extremely rare from him though and yes I’ve heard him speak many times after a loss.

 

He passive aggressively throws players and coaches under the bus all the time .

 

”i felt like we scored too fast there” against Denver.

Like that’s a disgraceful thing to say as a “leader” especially when his idiotic defensive play calling and the special teams gaf (which as the head coach he’s ultimately responsible for) cost them the game.

 

 

[DuckyBoys]

44 minutes ago, BobBelcher said:

 

Had the same thought man.  That's the GAME.  Defense is about to run an all-out blitz.  You're about to try to win the game with an option route after there has already been miscommunication on option routes during the game.  Why not call TO and make sure everyone is aligned before taking the most important snap of the game to that point??   I hate thinking about this play and would could have been, but can't help it.  It's always something or another.  SMH

Have to save those time out to ice kickers and make sure your prevent defense is on the same page.  Agreed they should have talked over what was happening to make certain  Not leave to it a split decision by both players with options involved

[pennstate10]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Bado -

 

I'll tell you where I disagree, but let me start by saying you're exactly right about "next level" prep.  That is what's missing.   It's completely clear when you look at the string of late-game failures, particularly in big games and playoff games.   Belichick understands "next level" prep.   

 

Where I disagree is that you then turn to WR and suggest they have the wrong players.   I don't think that's true, or to put it a different way, I think the guys they have will do just fine if they have "next level" prep.   Belichick won for years with a great QB and a lot of average players; he did it by having everyone, from the QB on down, buy into "next level" prep.  

 

I agree about Allen, and I've said it before.  He needs to be the leader in "next level" prep.  The team will follow him.  

 

And I don't agree that McDermott shouldn't be the coordinator - I think he has the same problem, whether he's the coordinator or not:  he needs "next level" prep also.  It's not that he isn't talented enough; it's that he hasn't thought about and mastered the details that he needs to.   

 

My complaint about McDermott is that by emphasizing versatility - let's be able to play every style - he sacrifices excellence in any particular style.   And I think there's a parallel when it comes to preparation:   I think he's great in the breadth of preparation ("we're going to have some preparation in everything"), but by going after breadth he sacrifices depth.   Davis can block and catches a lot of balls and all - nice breadth, but when the chips are down, has he really mastered the details that will the game?

Agree with the lack of next level prep and Allen as leader. 
 

Allen is one of, if not the most talented QB of this century. 
 

But the team has to want to be champions, and put in the off-season work. I don’t think they’re doing so. I get that organized team activities are optional, but these guys are making millions of $ per year. It wouldn’t be so hard to put in a bit more work. 
 

it’s been said that you need to put in 10000 hours to be expert at an activity, whether it’s playing the cello, shooting free throws, or learning the intricacies of option routes. 
 

I don’t see as many miscommunications with other teams. I don’t think Bills are putting in the time. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

We still talking about this? 

[BullBuchanan]

11 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Ok I’ll give him that as he did take some responsibility there.

 

Thats extremely rare from him though and yes I’ve heard him speak many times after a loss.

No, it isn't. He's said it dozens of times.

Two weeks ago: https://www.niagara-gazette.com/sports/sabato-sean-mcdermott-isnt-on-the-hot-seat-but-winning-is-the-only-way-to/article_efae1be0-8595-11ee-90ed-7fad971750e6.html

13 Seconds: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/sean-mcdermott-on-bills-not-squib-kicking-with-13-seconds-left-against-chiefs-that-starts-with-me/

 

Culture Change: https://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/13/bills-hc-sean-mcdermott-sets-tone-for-culture-change-that-starts-with-me/

 

2017: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2733856-sean-mcdermott-tyrod-taylor-to-remain-bills-starting-quarterback-vs-broncos
 

11 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

He passive aggressively throws players and coaches under the bus all the time .

 

”i felt like we scored too fast there” against Denver.

Like that’s a disgraceful thing to say as a “leader” especially when his idiotic defensive play calling and the special teams gaf (which as the head coach he’s ultimately responsible for) cost them the game.

Have you never heard a head coach before? It's HIS team. He doesn't blame anyone, and uses the royal "we" instead, putting himself front and center for the blame. How else should he answer a question that points to a  strategy he's is responsible for?

"Disgraceful"?! Dude, I hated McDermott as a hire and it's on record here, but you're so so completely off base on everything about the guy and a coach's responsibilities in general, that I gotta stand up for the guy because you're slandering him for completely ridiculous things.

The dude sucks, but not for any of the reasons you've laid out.

Edited November 29, 2023 by BullBuchanan

[transplantbillsfan]

21 hours ago, MJS said:

Joe Marino came to the conclusion that it was probably Josh Allen's fault. But he had a split second to make that decision given the pressure. So, it is what it is.

 

I think it's interesting Joe came to that conclusion.  I listen to Locked on Bills and heard that, too.

 

Greg Cosell was on OBL today and he said the opposite.  It's towards the end of the video, but what he says is (to paraphrase) is that in all his years of speaking with NFL coaches that players are taught that on a Zero Blitz, that leaves the middle of the field open and that's where the WRs should go to help their QB.

 

I thought that was a great explanation and it makes perfect sense.  If true (seems to be to me), the onus is on Gabe.

 

[BillsFan130]

3 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

No, it isn't. He's said it dozens of times.

Two weeks ago: https://www.niagara-gazette.com/sports/sabato-sean-mcdermott-isnt-on-the-hot-seat-but-winning-is-the-only-way-to/article_efae1be0-8595-11ee-90ed-7fad971750e6.html

13 Seconds: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/sean-mcdermott-on-bills-not-squib-kicking-with-13-seconds-left-against-chiefs-that-starts-with-me/

 

Culture Change: https://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/13/bills-hc-sean-mcdermott-sets-tone-for-culture-change-that-starts-with-me/

 

2017: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2733856-sean-mcdermott-tyrod-taylor-to-remain-bills-starting-quarterback-vs-broncos
 

Have you never heard a head coach before? It's HIS team. He doesn't blame anyone, and uses the royal "we" instead, putting himself front and center for the blame. How else should he answer a question that points to a  strategy he's is responsible for?

"Disgraceful"?! Dude, I hated McDermott as a hire and it's on record here, but you're so so completely off base on everything about the guy and a coach's responsibilities in general, that I gotta stand up for the guy because you're slandering him for completely ridiculous things.

The dude sucks, but not for any of the reasons you've laid out.

“Starts with me”. Then goes on to blame everyone else but himself basically .

 

You don’t do that as a leader/coach 

 

“Extreme ownership “ by Jocko.

 

if you haven’t read that, highly recommended.

 

That’s how a leader should lead.

 

 

[BullBuchanan]

3 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I think it's interesting Joe came to that conclusion.  I listen to Locked on Bills and heard that, too.

 

Greg Cosell was on OBL today and he said the opposite.  It's towards the end of the video, but what he says is (to paraphrase) is that in all his years of speaking with NFL coaches that players are taught that on a Zero Blitz, that leaves the middle of the field open and that's where the WRs should go to help their QB.

 

I thought that was a great explanation and it makes perfect sense.  If true (seems to be to me), the onus is on Gabe.

 

Did Josh see the zero blitz presnap and call it out? I'd think that would be his responsibility, not Gabe's.

Just now, BillsFan130 said:

“Starts with me”. Then goes on to blame everyone else but himself basically .

 

You don’t do that as a leader/coach 

 

“Extreme ownership “ by Jocko.

 

if you haven’t read that, highly recommended.

 

That’s how a leader should lead.

 

 

You seem to think an explanation means blaming. He's telling you why he thinks they failed, which is answering the question being asked.

Again, no one cares about accountability. They only care about results.

[Simon]

3 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

I felt like it was visually obvious that the Cb had inside position on the play.

 

I would agree with you that the post is the easier throw and catch outside of the positioning.

 

I kind of thought that as soon as they blew the switch that the leverage became irrelevant because there wasn't any.

Gabe ran to to grass but I doubt he need to take it out to the corner; just keep rollling upfield and you're home free.

The biggest mistake was probably not getting his head around immediately, imo.

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I kind of thought that as soon as they blew the switch that the leverage became irrelevant because there wasn't any.

Gabe ran to to grass but I doubt he need to take it out to the corner; just keep rollling upfield and you're home free.

The biggest mistake was probably not getting his head around immediately, imo.

It reminded me a little of the second TD in the 13second game tbh

 

No switch but still defense in man zero

[BillsFan130]

54 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Did Josh see the zero blitz presnap and call it out? I'd think that would be his responsibility, not Gabe's.

You seem to think an explanation means blaming. He's telling you why he thinks they failed, which is answering the question being asked.

Again, no one cares about accountability. They only care about results.

Here’s where you’re right and here’s where I believe you’re a bit off.

 

yes they care about results primarily, that’s where you’re right.

 

however:

 

No one wants to be thrown under the bus.

 

And a leader should never do that to his coaches/players. Under any circumstance

 

example: Joe Brady saying “it’s not Josh’s fault or gabes fault, it’s mine”.

 

That is taking ownership.

 

When you say “it starts with me” and then basically blame everyone but yourself essentially, that’s not taking ownership. That’s deflection.

 

Once again and I don’t say this to sound condescending in anyway. I highly recommend you read extreme ownership by Jocko and you’ll understand my issues with McDermott in his post game presses

 

 

 

 

[Cash]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Brady's exactly right: it's on him.  Except that he's only been on the job for two weeks.  

 

The failure of that play was a training issue, and the necessary training takes place in the off-season and continues into the season.  Allen and Davis have to KNOW what to do on that play, know every little aspect of it, and beyond knowing they have to actually do it when the time comes.   Someone screwed up because he wasn't well enough trained, and that problem is an offensive coordinator problem.  It's his job to be sure that his coaches - the QB coach and the wide receiver coach - are holding their players to the appropriate high standard. 

 

During the broadcast, Romo was emphatic about it being Davis's mistake.   He was talking about what he was trained to do, so it might not be the same for the Bills, but he said that going deep against single coverage, when he beats the coverage the wide receiver must look back and find the ball BEFORE making his cut.   If Davis had looked back, he would have tracked the ball into the end zone to win the game.   If that's right, then Davis wasn't trained well enough, and that's on Dorsey and the wide receivers' coach.  Brady was correct organizationally - it's on the OC, but in his defense, he wasn't the OC when Davis should have been drilled about this.  

 

People point to the Davis mistake as another tally on the condemn-Davis ledger.   Yes, it belongs on that side of the ledger, but there was a lot of excellent play from Davis in that game that goes on the other side.  

Phenomenal post, and it really articulates a point that was too often missing from the Dorsey discourse. It drove me nuts hearing people say variations of, “Don’t blame Dorsey; it’s on the players for not executing.” For some things, that’s completely true - Gabe’s dropped pass INT a couple weeks ago for example. 
 

But in this case, the problem was that two players weren’t on the same page. Pretty much by definition, that means the offense wasn’t coordinated. And that’s primarily the responsibility of - you guessed it - the offensive coordinator. 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, pennstate10 said:

Agree with the lack of next level prep and Allen as leader. 
 

Allen is one of, if not the most talented QB of this century. 
 

But the team has to want to be champions, and put in the off-season work. I don’t think they’re doing so. I get that organized team activities are optional, but these guys are making millions of $ per year. It wouldn’t be so hard to put in a bit more work. 
 

it’s been said that you need to put in 10000 hours to be expert at an activity, whether it’s playing the cello, shooting free throws, or learning the intricacies of option routes. 
 

I don’t see as many miscommunications with other teams. I don’t think Bills are putting in the time. 

First, I agree.

 

I think if you watch mediocre teams, you'll see plenty of miscommunication.  You just don't see it on good teams.  

 

I've been saying something similar about wanting to be champions and putting in the work, but I think it's more than just the hours.   I think McDermott has them putting in the hours.   I think it's really what you're doing when you put in the hours.  Are you mastering the important details and then moving on to the little details and mastering those.   It's not just talking about what to do in this situation, and it's not just about doing it a few times in training.   It's working really hard at it when you do practice, and you do it right, and you promise your teammates that you'll do it right in a game.   It's all of those thing.  

 

I think McDermott has to ask himself whether he's leading these men to do THAT kind of work, and that includes himself.

 

I'm going repeat something I've said before, and I think it's an example of what I'm talking about.   I heard a retired player on the radio, an offensive lineman, a journeyman who'd played on several teams, including the Patriots.   He said that every week the Patriot coaches would give him three to five keys use in the game, things like when the defensive tackle lines up six inches off, instead of head to head, he's stunting.   Things that might happen only two or three times in the game, but things that would give him an edge on two or three plays.  Every week he'd get three to five things specific to the week's opponent, and he said they always correct.   He said no other team did that.  

 

What's the point?  The point is that the Patriots made a fetish out of doing everything right, starting with coaches studying film to figure out keys like that, to coaches communicating them, to players creating an actual advantage on the field.   Everyone committed, everyone working together. 

 

When I look at the Bills persistent failures at key times of the game, I see a team that isn't committed to details like that. 

[Since1981]

Gabe has been out of location many times this year. You’d think after these many yrs the two guys would have this scenario nailed. It’s kind of weird. Someone better than me could search the archives and surely would find the same mirror play, and truth. 
 

intuitively? Gabe is out of sync way more than Diggs so…

[MJS]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I think it's interesting Joe came to that conclusion.  I listen to Locked on Bills and heard that, too.

 

Greg Cosell was on OBL today and he said the opposite.  It's towards the end of the video, but what he says is (to paraphrase) is that in all his years of speaking with NFL coaches that players are taught that on a Zero Blitz, that leaves the middle of the field open and that's where the WRs should go to help their QB.

 

I thought that was a great explanation and it makes perfect sense.  If true (seems to be to me), the onus is on Gabe.

Interesting. Marino mentioned the leverage of the defender and stuff like that, but he also didn't sound too sure.

[Shaw66]

19 minutes ago, Since1981 said:

Gabe has been out of location many times this year. You’d think after these many yrs the two guys would have this scenario nailed. It’s kind of weird. Someone better than me could search the archives and surely would find the same mirror play, and truth. 
 

intuitively? Gabe is out of sync way more than Diggs so…

I really do lay this on Dorsey.  The Gabe-Josh disconnect began last season, so far as I can recall - prior to that they seemed to be truly together.  

 

This season there have been multiple occasions when Davis broke off the route and Josh threw deep (including that intentional grounding call), and several others when the opposite happened.   Then Sunday.   If a rookie had multiple disconnects like, the rookie would sit until he figured it out.  It wasn't a problem for Davis as a rookie or afterward, until Dorsey become the OC.   

5 hours ago, Ray Stonada said:

I think there are too many option routes in our offense in general… too many plays go wrong because of a WR reading it differently than Allen 

I don't agree.  I think everyone runs option routes.   It's standard - receiver has to read the defense and make the cuts, and the QB has to make the same read.  That's the fundamental of the back shoulder throw - beat your man, go, side by side or covered, break it off.  Happens all the time.  But this season, for some reason, Davis and Allen aren't reading it the same way.   It's a problem that is the coach's job to fix.  

[34-78-83]

I love you @Shaw66 and you make some great points here and always, but “ It starts with me “ which is something my leadership organization uses in our accountability discussions, is intended to mean “ It starts and ends with me” as in “ The Buck stops here” or I am responsible for the construction, expectations and output of my team as the leader of said team. It’s highly unlikely McD, who preaches accountability as much as Mike Tomlin does in his list of priorities, uses it as a way to excuse himself from the results.

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

It can not be on Allen though, he had to throw the ball before Davis made any break and the WR has the option to go corner or inside, so Allen has to go where he thinks Davis is going to choose based on the coverage.  Doesn't really make either guy wrong, its part of the risk with a WR option when a QB is forced to throw before the break.  Most plays there is more clear choice, on this one, it was pick a direction they are both easy TD's.

 

Based on the look at the time Allen threw it, inside is where it looked like Davis "should" go.  That also doesn't mean its Davis fault either, but I think the bigger issue is that next time, there needs to be a predetermined understanding of where to break on that look vs an option.  

I don't think it's as simple as both guys needing to make the same read about which way to cut.  On the broadcast, Romo said that in that situation, it's the receiver's job to look early and find the ball.  He's supposed to know it's cover zero, and therefore he knows the QB is likely to throw before the break.  It's essentially Josh's option, to pick a side, and it's the receiver's job to find it and get it.  This is operating on the assumption that he's going to beat the defender. 

 

Now, maybe that's just the way the Cowboys ran it, and other teams have other rules.  But he said it as though everyone runs it that way, because the QB is likely throwing under duress and it's up to the receiver to make the play wherever the QB can put the ball.  

 

We don't know what his actions on the bench meant, but it certainly looked like Davis was reacting to his mistake and not just to a missed opportunity.  And Josh's press conference was diplomatic, to say the least.  

 

The important point, as many have been saying, is that it's the coaches' job at this point in the season to have players on the field who can be depended on to execute the play as it's intended.  If they can't run the play correct consistently, then you can't call the play.  

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

I love you @Shaw66 and you make some great points here and always, but “ It starts with me “ which is something my leadership organization uses in our accountability discussions, is intended to mean “ It starts and ends with me” as in “ The Buck stops here” or I am responsible for the construction, expectations and output of my team as the leader of said team. It’s highly unlikely McD, who preaches accountability as much as Mike Tomlin does in his list of priorities, uses it as a way to excuse himself from the results.

Well, I don't disagree with that - ultimately it's on McDermott.   I've told this story before:

 

Several years ago a US Navy submarine surfaced and accidentally struck a Japanese ship carrying several dozen Japanese students, like middle school or high school.  Several kids drowned.  I saw the captain of the sub on Larry King one night, and King kept asking him to identify who was responsible.  Was the guy studying the sonar to see if the area where they were surfacing was clear of ships, or his commanding officer, or his?   The captain said, immediately - "it's on me.  I'm responsible for the boat, for everything that happens on the boat, and if something goes wrong, it's because I didn't cause my crew to be prepare.  That's on me." 

 

In that sense, absolutely, it's on McDermott.  And I don't think McDermott would argue with that conclusion.  But in a different sense, when you're trying to fix the problem it's important to find the place where the system failed (the system that McDermott is responsible for and the system that McDermott has to fix).   The point where the system failed, in my mind, is at the OC level, because the HC trusts the OC to train his players to execute, and they didn't.   I think on the org chart, that's Brady, and so Brady said it's on him.  But in truth, he couldn't be expected to train these guys in that kind of detail after only two weeks on the job.  It was Dorsey's failure, and although they're working on it, the real fix can only be accomplished by a competent OC in the off-season.  The coaching techniques and the attitudes of the coaches and players has to change.   

 

Now, there is a broader question that is squarely on McDermott.  McDermott had the wrong OC.  He knew there were problems with Dorsey after his rookie performance, and McDermott decided to give him a second season.   He probably should have pulled the plug on Dorsey earlier than he did.   So, there's all of that.  And there's the question of whether he is the right leader to get his coordinators to be good at their jobs.   He certainly didn't get Dorsey straightened out, and that IS his job.  

[Shaw66]

58 minutes ago, Since1981 said:

Gabe has been out of location many times this year. You’d think after these many yrs the two guys would have this scenario nailed. It’s kind of weird. Someone better than me could search the archives and surely would find the same mirror play, and truth. 
 

 

That's why I see Dorsey's fingerprints.  I'm sure, as you say, that they've connected on the same kind of plays in the past - heck, he caught so many TDs against the Chiefs, ONE of them most have been the same.   The disconnect between the two of them this season suggests they haven't been working on aspects of the game in the same way as they'd done in previous seasons (or under Daboll).

 

The great players all show you that they ALWAYS are working on the details of the game.   I remember watching a Colts game late in the time when Peyton and Harrison were playing together.   During the game, they showed video from pre-game workouts.   Peyton and Harrison were running short out patterns, over and over, working on the timing of the throw, the brake, and the placement of the ball.  These guys already were perhaps the greatest passer-receiver combination of all time, and late in their time together, they were still working on details of a simple play.  

 

I would guess that Dorsey didn't lead Josh and Gabe to continue to work on some details, and that's why we've seen what we've seen. 

[Ray Stonada]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

That's why I see Dorsey's fingerprints.  I'm sure, as you say, that they've connected on the same kind of plays in the past - heck, he caught so many TDs against the Chiefs, ONE of them most have been the same.   The disconnect between the two of them this season suggests they haven't been working on aspects of the game in the same way as they'd done in previous seasons (or under Daboll).

 

The great players all show you that they ALWAYS are working on the details of the game.   I remember watching a Colts game late in the time when Peyton and Harrison were playing together.   During the game, they showed video from pre-game workouts.   Peyton and Harrison were running short out patterns, over and over, working on the timing of the throw, the brake, and the placement of the ball.  These guys already were perhaps the greatest passer-receiver combination of all time, and late in their time together, they were still working on details of a simple play.  

 

I would guess that Dorsey didn't lead Josh and Gabe to continue to work on some details, and that's why we've seen what we've seen. 

Interesting. I felt, reading between the lines, that Josh, Brady and Gabe were implying it was Josh who made the wrong throw (the post instead of corner route) based on the inside leverage Gabe faced. (I don’t know enough to say myself, of course.)
 

According to @HoofHearted as well, Gabe ran the play correctly and it was indeed on Josh.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Ray Stonada

[DCofNC]

8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Did anyone confirm this part? curious tbh

 

He stacks him right at the 13 which is when Allen lets the ball go, post is an easier throw/catch vs zero than corner

 

there's no leverage once DBs hips flip

It’s all coach speak to say it wasn’t Gabe’s fault, Brady essentially said, the guys weren’t prepared to execute under the circumstances and I knew we would see it, so it’s my fault.   He took the finger pointing away from both guys by simply saying the team wasn’t prepared for the moment.

[Warcodered]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I think it's interesting Joe came to that conclusion.  I listen to Locked on Bills and heard that, too.

 

Greg Cosell was on OBL today and he said the opposite.  It's towards the end of the video, but what he says is (to paraphrase) is that in all his years of speaking with NFL coaches that players are taught that on a Zero Blitz, that leaves the middle of the field open and that's where the WRs should go to help their QB.

 

I thought that was a great explanation and it makes perfect sense.  If true (seems to be to me), the onus is on Gabe.

 

I can't see why it wouldn't be that, your one on one with a DB, there's no one in the middle of the field. Why would you choose to give him the sideline for assistance instead of breaking for all that space in the middle.

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, Ray Stonada said:

Interesting. I felt, reading between the lines, that Josh, Brady and Gabe were implying it was Josh who made the wrong throw (the post instead of corner route) based on the inside leverage Gabe faced. (I don’t know enough to say myself, of course.)
 

According to @HoofHearted as well, Gabe ran the play correctly and it was indeed on Josh.

Interesting, as well.  The real point, of course, is not who did it right or wrong, but why they weren't on the same page.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to run a play where there's a 50-50 chance it will fail because two players are both guessing at what to do.  

[Scott7975]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Interesting, as well.  The real point, of course, is not who did it right or wrong, but why they weren't on the same page.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to run a play where there's a 50-50 chance it will fail because two players are both guessing at what to do.  

 

This exactly.  It doesn't matter what player is at fault.  We can analyze it to death and never know the true answer.  What matters is that the Bills know who is at fault and corrects the problem.  This is why Dorsey was let go.  He wasn't detail oriented enough and failed to fix the problems. 

[Ray Stonada]

10 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

This exactly.  It doesn't matter what player is at fault.  We can analyze it to death and never know the true answer.  What matters is that the Bills know who is at fault and corrects the problem.  This is why Dorsey was let go.  He wasn't detail oriented enough and failed to fix the problems. 

Agreed. I think the Bills were implying that you shouldn’t need telepathy, the assignment is to read the leverage and select the corner route based on inside leverage. Just that Josh didn’t read it that way. Should not be hard to fix in practice, and that’s on Brady. 

[Since1981]

where I’m forever stuck is 3.5 years together…

”0 blitz, WR2, QB1, what do we do?”

[Preds]

On 11/28/2023 at 6:57 PM, Scott7975 said:

 

I already liked this guy way more than Dorsey.  Now I love this guy way more than Dorsey.  He actually tries to fix the problems instead of just status quo hoping people stop making mistakes.

Imagine that, a coach that takes accountability (even though in this case it may not even truly be his fault).  Sure wish the HC had the balls to be accountable for his numerous coaching misconducts, unfortunately all he does is deflect and scapegoat everyone around him,

[bmur66]

Think about it. How would they both know exactly what to do in that particular situation? It’s not that simple. Maybe Gabe needed to look back for the ball a split second sooner. I don’t know. Sure would have been a nice td if it worked out. 

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

This exactly.  It doesn't matter what player is at fault.  We can analyze it to death and never know the true answer.  What matters is that the Bills know who is at fault and corrects the problem.  This is why Dorsey was let go.  He wasn't detail oriented enough and failed to fix the problems. 

I don't know that we know for a fact that this is why Dorsey was gone, but it certainly makes sense.   And, really, that play represents what looks like a problem, but it was only one problem.  The thing that was troubling everyone, starting at game 5, was the disappearance of any offensive flow or effectiveness.  The Bills are 6-6 because the offense substantially underperformed its potential.  With decent offensive performance, like we've seen in the last two games, the Bills would be 9-3 or even 10-2.   

 

It's really frustrating to have blown (absent a miracle) another opportunity.