Time to rewrite the Conventional Wisdom on the playoff loss to Bengals--and the new CW on Dorsey too

[JohnNord]

On 11/19/2023 at 2:12 PM, Mister Defense said:

Last year it quickly became conventional wisdom by many in the media, locally and nationally, that the Bills were simply emotionally and physically spent, and that is why they were dominated by the Bengals in Buffalo, at High Mark Stadium. The story went something like this: the tragedy in Buffalo, the loss of Knox’s brother, the snow storms, and the Hamlin incident all were too much for the Bills, and that is why the Bengals handled them so easily, the reason the Bills were not even in the game.  ‘They look exhausted’, we heard during and after the game. That take became the CW across the country, although I don’t think the Bills thought that was the reason.

 

But I and others didn’t think that was the reason in any way for the Bills performance. That is not because of a lack of empathy, but I thought this was a tough, resilient team, Buffalo Strong, and that if anything, the surprisingly quick recovery of Hamlin was like the weight of the world being lifted off the team’s, and Buffalo’s, shoulders.

 

The problem was that they had an incompetent offensive coordinator, who the league was slowly coming to terms with as the season progressed.  We saw with our own eyes, if we were paying attention, that he was extremely poor at even the most fundamental of OC duties:

 

o   Did not seem to have game plan specific plans prepared for the game that would help to facilitate things against defenses….

o   He did know how to make in game changes to overcome what the defense was doing, seemed to have no  plan for those things…

o   Did not utilize the running game well, using it arbitrarily, with almost no connection to the passing game. As  Gregg Cosell said several times last year: “There is no synchronicity between the Bills' running and passing game”.  This in itself, to me, was a reason Dorsey could not be permitted to return for this season...

o   Did not call plays that made sense, repeatedly, and often was clueless as to what a good rhythm in play calling meant

o   He did not use his personnel effectively, not getting the most out of the players on the offense.

o   And awful use of formations to facilitate things for the offense,  with extremely limited use of motion, and with so little use of Allen under center and play action, despite the fact that the Bills excelled when using those three things…

 

Etcetera--but those are only some of the big, obvious things. Imagine how Dorsey dealt with the equally important smaller details that make an offense work. I cannot imagine how bad those details were if he had no clue related to the big, obvious problems even laymen like us saw.

 

Even one of those defects means that there would be significant obstacles placed in front of the offense—rather than facilitating things, Dorsey was doing the opposite, placing big obstacles in front of his talented players.  But add up all of the obstacles and they became insurmountable. That is what happened this year, clearly.  And the fish then rotted from the head, as the players tried to overcome their grossly incompetent OC.

 

This year, as the offense became Dorsey's alone, and the heavy lift from last year became their identity, of course the play of the players, even of the best Bills, was going to decline. They were operating in a fundamentally flawed offense, one that could often not even move the ball, and one that caused them to fall behind in game after game. Players, already going into the game with Dorsey's huge obstacles in front of them, now were faced with coming back against teams, teams that seemed to know the Bills extremely limited repertoire of plays by heart, causing the Bills to look sloppy, inept, turn the ball over, and causing them to lose their confidence.

 

Our tough, resilient team was not exhausted in the playoff game, and not against the Jaguars this year because of jet lag…. they were UNPREPARED to play well, let alone win-- shocked, defeated before they even walked on the field, as defenses, especially the good ones, like the Bengals, had come to terms with how fundamentally flawed this offense was.  And this year it had become common place, with an offense Dan Orlosvky said was “outrageously predictable” and “the easiest offense in the NFL to defend”.  Our recently great, feared offense now the easiest to defend in the NFL? THAT is why the Bills looked so shocked and confused in that playoff game--and we then saw those same faces this year, over and over and over. This is why Michael Robinson bravely called for a change in the OC position before the Bills' Thursday night game, one of the few to dare speak the truth on national television.

 

Good head coaches and defensive coordinators have been like fat kids in a free candy store, drooling and licking their chops, at how easy this very poorly coached offense would be to stop now, despite several elite players and a history of them dominating defenses. This became clearer and clearer.

 

What happened the next time we saw the starters on the field in the preseason, how did they do?  No points(?)  scored in the entire half of that preseason game. This was yet another canary in the coal mine for all of us understanding how fundamentally poor Dorsey was at his job. Even in a preseason game his players were unprepared, could not get first downs, could not score.  (I kept thinking--what will happen when they play good defenses in the NFL this year--or even mediocre ones?) And the look on the players' faces?--shocked again, and with no answers. Just like they looked against the Bengals in their previous game.

 

The CW at the time? Just a preseason game, meaningless, as this is going to be a great offense, a “wrecking crew”, as Steve Tasker called them. And then, of course, this was what we would see this season, as that became their identity.

 

So let's not accept any longer that CW from last January or now from so many on the Dorsey firing.  The new CW?  Dorsey was a scapegoat, a fall guy, that Allen is to blame, or the other players, and Dorsey should not have been fired, especially in the middle of the season. That this cannot be done now, is almost never the answer, is going to make the Bills worse...  

 

But the CW is wrong again, of course.  The Bills were likely not going to beat any of the good teams they are yet to play this year with Dorsey in charge, as they were the worst coached offense in the NFL, turning our once great offense into a crap heap.  The only hope to save the season was to get Dorsey out of there.

 

Now, hopefully there is time for the Bills to show who they really are.  It may be hard to rebound quickly from the mess Dorsey alone created, but I think they will, and prove the latest CW wrong--and last year's too.   No dominant teams in the AFC this year, and now we may be able to see what the Josh Allen led Bills are really made of...again.

 

 
 

 

This is was an astute observation last month that rings even more true today.

 

The narrative is often that “Josh over McDermott.”  I’d almost argue that Josh overcame Dorsey as OC.  His talent and ability to get the ball to Stef for plays helped elevate the offense statistically but it just never looked smooth.  It was always Josh throwing to Diggs or Josh throwing deep to Gabe Davis.  When the big plays were taken away the offense had zero answers.

 

This is why IMO Dorsey wanted to turn Josh into an efficient short game passer that runs out of 2 TE sets.  It’s my believe this was a Dorsey concept and not a McDermott one.  It made sense on paper but in actuality it restricted his strengths.  
 

I think Brady’s play calling and game plans have been better but also gave Josh answers when teams focused on taking away Diggs the past few weeks.    This is what Dorsey never could do and I think that offense post-Miami was a big reason why the Bills dropped some games they should have won.

[Punching Bag]

On 11/19/2023 at 2:23 PM, Mister Defense said:

 

Yes, and I think that all of the offensive players, especially Allen and Diggs, were seeing what so many of us saw.  Listen to Allen's words after the firing, and read between the lions.  For example, Allen said how much he respected Dorsey "as a human being", but never said he was a good offensive coordinator, at least from what I heard.

 

 

Allen was reason why Dorsey was OC!   He wanted him to succeed Coach Diabolical.  After a LOT of friction between him and Brian Daboll until Daboll backed off a bit, called from booth and became less confrontational with Allen (as he learned in New England) and more collaborative.  Dorsey did even seem to be collaborative with his own staff.   I do not know what happened to between being QB who was one who talked to Allen in booth while Daboll was in booth to becoming OC but he seemed to have a personality change maybe from too much stress and living up to Coach Diabolical.

[Mr. WEO]

On 11/19/2023 at 2:12 PM, Mister Defense said:

 

 

But the CW is wrong again, of course.  The Bills were likely not going to beat any of the good teams they are yet to play this year with Dorsey in charge, as they were the worst coached offense in the NFL, turning our once great offense into a crap heap.  

 

 

 

 
 

 

 

 

I'm no fan of Dorsey, but this is an awful take.

[ToGoGo]

15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I'm no fan of Dorsey, but this is an awful take.

Please explain your thought process in detail. 

[BADOLBILZ]

On 11/19/2023 at 2:12 PM, Mister Defense said:

Last year it quickly became conventional wisdom by many in the media, locally and nationally, that the Bills were simply emotionally and physically spent, and that is why they were dominated by the Bengals in Buffalo, at High Mark Stadium. The story went something like this: the tragedy in Buffalo, the loss of Knox’s brother, the snow storms, and the Hamlin incident all were too much for the Bills, and that is why the Bengals handled them so easily, the reason the Bills were not even in the game.  ‘They look exhausted’, we heard during and after the game. That take became the CW across the country, although I don’t think the Bills thought that was the reason.

 

But I and others didn’t think that was the reason in any way for the Bills performance. That is not because of a lack of empathy, but I thought this was a tough, resilient team, Buffalo Strong, and that if anything, the surprisingly quick recovery of Hamlin was like the weight of the world being lifted off the team’s, and Buffalo’s, shoulders.

 

The problem was that they had an incompetent offensive coordinator, who the league was slowly coming to terms with as the season progressed.  We saw with our own eyes, if we were paying attention, that he was extremely poor at even the most fundamental of OC duties:

 

o   Did not seem to have game plan specific plans prepared for the game that would help to facilitate things against defenses….

o   He did know how to make in game changes to overcome what the defense was doing, seemed to have no  plan for those things…

o   Did not utilize the running game well, using it arbitrarily, with almost no connection to the passing game. As  Gregg Cosell said several times last year: “There is no synchronicity between the Bills' running and passing game”.  This in itself, to me, was a reason Dorsey could not be permitted to return for this season...

o   Did not call plays that made sense, repeatedly, and often was clueless as to what a good rhythm in play calling meant

o   He did not use his personnel effectively, not getting the most out of the players on the offense.

o   And awful use of formations to facilitate things for the offense,  with extremely limited use of motion, and with so little use of Allen under center and play action, despite the fact that the Bills excelled when using those three things…

 

Etcetera--but those are only some of the big, obvious things. Imagine how Dorsey dealt with the equally important smaller details that make an offense work. I cannot imagine how bad those details were if he had no clue related to the big, obvious problems even laymen like us saw.

 

Even one of those defects means that there would be significant obstacles placed in front of the offense—rather than facilitating things, Dorsey was doing the opposite, placing big obstacles in front of his talented players.  But add up all of the obstacles and they became insurmountable. That is what happened this year, clearly.  And the fish then rotted from the head, as the players tried to overcome their grossly incompetent OC.

 

This year, as the offense became Dorsey's alone, and the heavy lift from last year became their identity, of course the play of the players, even of the best Bills, was going to decline. They were operating in a fundamentally flawed offense, one that could often not even move the ball, and one that caused them to fall behind in game after game. Players, already going into the game with Dorsey's huge obstacles in front of them, now were faced with coming back against teams, teams that seemed to know the Bills extremely limited repertoire of plays by heart, causing the Bills to look sloppy, inept, turn the ball over, and causing them to lose their confidence.

 

Our tough, resilient team was not exhausted in the playoff game, and not against the Jaguars this year because of jet lag…. they were UNPREPARED to play well, let alone win-- shocked, defeated before they even walked on the field, as defenses, especially the good ones, like the Bengals, had come to terms with how fundamentally flawed this offense was.  And this year it had become common place, with an offense Dan Orlosvky said was “outrageously predictable” and “the easiest offense in the NFL to defend”.  Our recently great, feared offense now the easiest to defend in the NFL? THAT is why the Bills looked so shocked and confused in that playoff game--and we then saw those same faces this year, over and over and over. This is why Michael Robinson bravely called for a change in the OC position before the Bills' Thursday night game, one of the few to dare speak the truth on national television.

 

Good head coaches and defensive coordinators have been like fat kids in a free candy store, drooling and licking their chops, at how easy this very poorly coached offense would be to stop now, despite several elite players and a history of them dominating defenses. This became clearer and clearer.

 

What happened the next time we saw the starters on the field in the preseason, how did they do?  No points(?)  scored in the entire half of that preseason game. This was yet another canary in the coal mine for all of us understanding how fundamentally poor Dorsey was at his job. Even in a preseason game his players were unprepared, could not get first downs, could not score.  (I kept thinking--what will happen when they play good defenses in the NFL this year--or even mediocre ones?) And the look on the players' faces?--shocked again, and with no answers. Just like they looked against the Bengals in their previous game.

 

The CW at the time? Just a preseason game, meaningless, as this is going to be a great offense, a “wrecking crew”, as Steve Tasker called them. And then, of course, this was what we would see this season, as that became their identity.

 

So let's not accept any longer that CW from last January or now from so many on the Dorsey firing.  The new CW?  Dorsey was a scapegoat, a fall guy, that Allen is to blame, or the other players, and Dorsey should not have been fired, especially in the middle of the season. That this cannot be done now, is almost never the answer, is going to make the Bills worse...  

 

But the CW is wrong again, of course.  The Bills were likely not going to beat any of the good teams they are yet to play this year with Dorsey in charge, as they were the worst coached offense in the NFL, turning our once great offense into a crap heap.  The only hope to save the season was to get Dorsey out of there.

 

Now, hopefully there is time for the Bills to show who they really are.  It may be hard to rebound quickly from the mess Dorsey alone created, but I think they will, and prove the latest CW wrong--and last year's too.   No dominant teams in the AFC this year, and now we may be able to see what the Josh Allen led Bills are really made of...again.

 

 
 

 

 

 

Your hindsight is 50/50.......congrats.

 

The team on the field now is not the same as the one at the end of last season..........the talent on offense is significantly better.......guys like Torrence/McGovern/Kincaid weren't with the team..........and the development of Spencer Brown and James Cook among others has been significant they weren't nearly the players they are now.    And they've been healthier.  

 

On defense they aren't just relying on Tim Settle and Ed Oliver to rotate as the 1 tech like they were in that Cinci game........Leonard Floyd and Rasul Douglas are big upgrades at key starting positions.........with the pass rush and LOS play improved the back 7 in general is more effective even though last years back 7 had Milano and Edmunds. 

 

There is no doubt they were emotionally sapped at the end of last season and they also didn't have the horse's to overcome it against a strong Cinci team(unfortunately even with the Bengals OL banged up) like they did versus Miami the week before.         

[ToGoGo]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Your hindsight is 50/50.......congrats.

 

The team on the field now is not the same as the one at the end of last season..........the talent on offense is significantly better.......guys like Torrence/McGovern/Kincaid weren't with the team..........and the development of Spencer Brown and James Cook among others has been significant they weren't nearly the players they are now.    And they've been healthier.  

 

On defense they aren't just relying on Tim Settle and Ed Oliver to rotate as the 1 tech like they were in that Cinci game........Leonard Floyd and Rasul Douglas are big upgrades at key starting positions.........with the pass rush and LOS play improved the back 7 in general is more effective even though last years back 7 had Milano and Edmunds. 

 

There is no doubt they were emotionally sapped at the end of last season and they also didn't have the horse's to overcome it against a strong Cinci team(unfortunately even with the Bengals OL banged up) like they did versus Miami the week before.         

Look at the date he wrote the post. A few days after Dorsey was fired. 
 

This guy made the best prediction I have ever seen a poster make on TBD. 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

Look at the date he wrote the post. A few days after Dorsey was fired. 
 

This guy made the best prediction I have ever seen a poster make on TBD. 

 

 

Did anyone not expect the offense to improve later in the season whether they changed play callers or not?   

 

Dorsey began the season with a directive to not get Josh Allen beaten up.

 

They were playing "not to lose Josh" and just get thru these easy opponents offensively for the last month before Dorsey got canned.

 

And the reality is they do not have the talent at WR to just make their QB stay in the pocket with the way defense's are attacking big play offense's this season.

 

Dorsey's exit coincided with the team letting Josh be Josh.   The threat of Allen using every skill at his disposal opens up the run game.   The passing game is still out of sync and very punchless but now that every option is on the table they can look more like they have when they've played with desperation in the past.   

 

This season is not just an extension of last season.......so much has changed beyond just the offensive play caller.

 

[ToGoGo]

10 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Did anyone not expect the offense to improve later in the season whether they changed play callers or not?   

 

Dorsey began the season with a directive to not get Josh Allen beaten up.

 

They were playing "not to lose Josh" and just get thru these easy opponents offensively for the last month before Dorsey got canned.

 

And the reality is they do not have the talent at WR to just make their QB stay in the pocket with the way defense's are attacking big play offense's this season.

 

Dorsey's exit coincided with the team letting Josh be Josh.   The threat of Allen using every skill at his disposal opens up the run game.   The passing game is still out of sync and very punchless but now that every option is on the table they can look more like they have when they've played with desperation in the past.   

 

This season is not just an extension of last season.......so much has changed beyond just the offensive play caller.

 

I have no idea what any of this has to do with the OP. 
 

The entire fanbase quit after the Broncos game. The only person with hindsight issues is you. 

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

I have no idea what any of this has to do with the OP. 
 

The entire fanbase quit after the Broncos game. The only person with hindsight issues is you. 

Nope

 

The actual rewriting of the conventional wisdom would be that the offense was fine under Dorsey, was in a lull similar to lulls under Daboll before him that many NFL offenses undergo throughout the course of a regular season, and was statistically likely to regain form 

[SWATeam]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Nope

 

The actual rewriting of the conventional wisdom would be that the offense was fine under Dorsey, was in a lull similar to lulls under Daboll before him that many NFL offenses undergo throughout the course of a regular season, and was statistically likely to regain form 

It was a one dimensional mess that put up massive stats against poor competition.

 

We have obviously upgraded.

[GoBills808]

Just now, SWATeam said:

It was a one dimensional mess that put up massive stats against poor competition.

 

We have obviously upgraded.

Yes that is the conventional wisdom in a nutshell

 

It's a nice story

[SWATeam]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Yes that is the conventional wisdom in a nutshell

 

It's a nice story

Do you honestly think Dorsey calls the game we just witnessed?   

[Mike in Horseheads]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Yes that is the conventional wisdom in a nutshell

 

It's a nice story

 

 

... That was a awful long lull, like all season but miami

[GoBills808]

Just now, SWATeam said:

Do you honestly think Dorsey calls the game we just witnessed?   

That is beside the point

 

What I think is that the offense would have finished the regular season in a similar statistical position regardless of who happened to be be OC

Just now, Mike in Horseheads said:

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yes that is the conventional wisdom in a nutshell

 

It's a nice story

 

 

... That was a awful long lull, like all season but miami

I realize that was how it felt but statistically that is not born out

[dpberr]

I think the Bills have quietly benefited from some new voices in the locker room this year compared to last year, and even compared to earlier in the year.  

 

I think the additions of Linval Joseph, Rasul Douglas, Ty Johnson, and Taylor Rapp have added some energy and nasty. 

 

I don't think it is coincidence that the Bills defense started hitting harder and playing more aggressively after Douglas and Joseph arrived on scene.  

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

That is beside the point

 

What I think is that the offense would have finished the regular season in a similar statistical position regardless of who happened to be be OC

I realize that was how it felt but statistically that is not born out

Whats the over/under on Dorsey's next OC job then? 

 

Gotta figure a guy who was CLEARLY a scapegoat and would've been fine if we just stuck out his second putrid second half of the season slump in two seasons is back with the headset on next year, right?

[GoBills808]

Just now, FireChans said:

Whats the over/under on Dorsey's next OC job then? 

 

Gotta figure a guy who was CLEARLY a scapegoat and would've been fine if we just stuck out his second putrid second half of the season slump in two seasons is back with the headset on next year, right?

Yes I would think he gets another job as OC at some point

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, ToGoGo said:

Please explain your thought process in detail. 

 

You do know how a dart board works, right?

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, ToGoGo said:

Please explain your thought process in detail. 

 

your analysis concluded that the Bills (Offense?) was the worst coached team in the NFL under Dorsey?  That conclusion clearly required NO thought process.

 

 

Bills under Dorsey were #2 in scoring and yards last year.  Sure, Cook had a once in a career (so far) game last week and Brady went with the hot hand. But you can't be serious about the worst coaching in the NFL.  why take such a bad look?  unforced error...

 

[Dillenger4]

who cares??? We are on a run with McD - top 3 coach in the NFL. Smokin Joe - Top 5 OC in league and climbing quickly. 

We just beat KC, Dallas, Jets and OT loss to the Eagles. Bills are on a frickin run boys and McD is to blame. It's his fault we are going to the playoffs. It's his fault our D is hitting the opposition with terrorist murder in their eyes. It's McD's fault that smokin Joe is our new OC. It's McD's fault that Joes besty from UB is now sitting upstairs right beside him and called some plays last week with Joe. Let's go! McD has us on the cusp of the frickin SB baby!!!! Let's goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[BADOLBILZ]

42 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

I have no idea what any of this has to do with the OP. 
 

The entire fanbase quit after the Broncos game. The only person with hindsight issues is you. 

 

 

I guess you can't read then.    He literally highlighted his attempted points and I addressed them.........but his take was that the problem for the last year has been an incompetent OC.

 

Like I said..........it's not been the same team since then.   At mid-year last season Josh Allen sprained his elbow and they adapted the offense because he was struggling to throw the ball short and intermediate with touch.   The Bills proceeded to AVERAGE 30 points per game in the 9 games after the UCL injury and prior to the Cinci playoff loss.

 

The narrative that the Dorsey was killing them down the stretch culminating in the Cinci playoff loss is just asinine.   

 

Totally different situation this year,   very different roster and overall health.    They were a physically and emotionally hobbled unit at the end of last year and there were limitations in Allen's game due to health and Cinci was able to take advantage of the changes the Bills were forced to make.

 

This year the Bills started out with a gameplan of avoiding Allen getting hurt and compromising their offense later in the season.

 

I mean, how short of a memory do some of you have?  I mean it was only a month ago roughly that every pundit was complaining about how Allen was being used.  It was an organizational choice not just Dorsey being clueless.

 

As I've been saying for a couple years,  the WR position has been steadily degrading and you can't ask Allen to immitate Joe Burrow when he has no playmaking ability at WR beyond Diggs.   Combine that with opposing defense's being in default "stop big plays" mode this season and  it was a recipe for mediocrity.   

 

And those of you that think all those offensive problems from 2 months ago are fixed now clearly don't see all the passes falling incomplete.    They aren't a well-oiled machine now they have just opened up their options.   I like Joe Brady.   Agreed it was time for a change because the team was in a malaise and it was an easy replacement to make to give them a jolt and letting Brady take over when they were already going to have to take the reigns off of Allen was ideal timing for him to make a good first impression.   But Brady hasn't yet gotten this team running on all cylinders offensively either.   And he might not be able to because the receiving talent just isn't there.  

[pocoboy]

JA17's demeanor early in the season could very easily be chalked up to him feeling guilt, anger, desperation, etc. over vouching for Dorsey, only to have him be anywhere from incompetent to ineffective. Think of the burden he would carry for being a primary reason your team has appointed a dud, and double it down by having the type of Head Coach who doesn't want to drop the escape hatch on the guy without giving him a shot.

 

There's also this thing with Allen and his psychology that got a ton of play. Looking back on the @Miami game last year...could that have been some psychobabble that was preached to Dorsey to prevent any more on-camera meltdowns?

 

There are so many factors in the degrading of our play from the 2022 Bye Week all the way to Dorsey's firing, including Allen's elbow, the Hamlin incident, plus all the other adversity...but there's also a marked change in attitude on this team now. The CIN game where Hamlin had his cardiac event saw the team get utterly manhandled from the opening kickoff. Maybe we'll see them hit a really dogged foe and wilt in the coming weeks, but I feel like they are more willing to go toe to toe now than before.

[The Red King]

Why not both?  Specifically, why not both coordinators?  Our D Coordinator was a known commodity and had to go.  He didn't even alter the game plan that got them lit up on the opening drive against Cincy in the regular season.

 

On the other side, a lot of people weren't happy with Dorsey.  But the common thought was, it was his first season.  So he kinda got a pass, where Frazier did not.  Sadly, given more time, he did not improve, so he had to go too.

[Mister Defense]

3 hours ago, ToGoGo said:

Look at the date he wrote the post. A few days after Dorsey was fired. 
 

This guy made the best prediction I have ever seen a poster make on TBD. 

 

Thanks! I appreciate that! Looking forward to responding to some of the others here as well later when I have some time.

 

Been a Bills fan for decades, quit my second job in late teens, a week shy of my two year anniversary/vacation pay, just to watch a Bills game  as they wouldn't give me it off.  I showed them--that company never recovered (Wegmans).

 

But this Bills team, for multiple reasons, is the one I know best.

 

Curious as to what your take was on the stuff I said a little later this day and thread, on page 2, on what I defined as the vital elements of the new AD offense and defense, and so, what they would now become, and develop into, as a result now that they were on the right track. Do you think that those things are coming to fruition at a high level now? Do you agree that those are the vital things?  I tried to define the type of team that they were when hitting on all cylinders, what it looks like, a month ago. 

 

A great time to be a Bills fan; just wish all of the Bills fans were appreciating this, and not waiting until they win it all.  The journey is the destination.

 

(BadOlBillz is just joking, trolling, right? No one can post that stuff in a serious way, actually believe it. Right?  Ignorance at its worst if it is real, though.)

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Mister Defense

[ToGoGo]

1 hour ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Thanks! I appreciate that! Looking forward to responding to some of the others here as well later when I have some time.

 

Been a Bills fan for decades, quit my second job in late teens, a week shy of my two year anniversary/vacation pay, just to watch a Bills game  as they wouldn't give me it off.  I showed them--that company never recovered (Wegmans).

 

But this Bills team, for multiple reasons, is the one I know best.

 

Curious as to what your take was on the stuff I said a little later this day and thread, on page 2, on what I defined as the vital elements of the new AD offense and defense, and so, what they would now become, and develop into, as a result now that they were on the right track. Do you think that those things are coming to fruition at a high level now? Do you agree that those are the vital things?  I tried to define the type of team that they were when hitting on all cylinders, what it looks like, a month ago. 

 

A great time to be a Bills fan; just wish all of the Bills fans were appreciating this, and not waiting until they win it all.  The journey is the destination.

 

(BadOlBillz is just joking, trolling, right? No one can post that stuff in a serious way, actually believe it. Right?  Ignorance at its worst if it is real, though.)

 

 

My sense is that the "big picture concept" that Brady is doing is the same "concept" that Dorsey tried to do but in an exceptionally incompetent manner. 

 

What I mean by "big picture concept" is to transition our offense around Allen from one that Allen carries by himself to one that carries him and allows him to make great plays only when we need great plays from him.

 

Basically, we want to give Allen what Mahomes has had since his 1st day in the league. If you ignore the negative connotation of the top image, you'll see what I mean. 

 

 

 

Mahomes has been carried by the amazing parts around him, which allowed Mahomes to max out his skills and make the great plays only when he needed to. Allen on the other hand, has had to drag the team around him to glory. You saw this at it's peak during the Daboll years where Daboll once ran Allen on a designed QB run during the Bucs, two plays after Allen injured himself. They were running him into the ground.

 

McDermott and Beane (correctly) made this realization and wanted a new OC who would bring this mentality to the offense. This is where Dorsey came in, and was given the assignment from the bosses, to create an offense that does not live and die with Allen's legs and heroics. 

 

This was actually the right move. The problem was, as you noted in the OP and opened my eyes to, was Dorsey's extreme incompetence at play calling and preparation. The move was right, but the wrong man was given the job.

 

What we're seeing from Brady is the same concept as the image on the top that Dorsey attempted, but with solid (and growing) efficiency. This is why we are seeing the run game more, Kincaid more, and Diggs and Davis less. We're balancing out the offense the correct way, allowing Allen to use his legs, but not living and dying with his legs and arm like Daboll did. Dorsey unfortunately took some years off of Diggs prime, and may have ruined Davis mentally just as he was ready to breakout.

 

To answer your question succinctly, I think we want to build a team that can win with Allen as a game manager (like we saw against Dallas), while making the great plays when we need them (the way a true game manager like Purdy couldn't if the chips were on the table and a DE was in his face and his routes weren't ready).  

Edited December 20, 2023 by ToGoGo
minor correction

[Mikie2times]

On 11/19/2023 at 2:39 PM, Aussie Joe said:

Any comment on the D from that game ?

 

they looked like they played on roller skates and just were back pedaling 

 

They showed as much physicality as a 10 week old kitten 

The physicality of a 10 week old kitten hit the spot 😂

[thewookie1]

Dorsey could call plays, Brady can call games it seems. It’s the difference between being capable of writing and being an author. Both can play in the same sand box but only the latter will build a castle. 
 

Daboll’s offense was the basis to Dorsey’s offense to which he modified from there to include more 21 personnel and less Josh runs. The issue seemed to be that no matter how good one play could be in a vacuum; they all were individual plays. There was no setting up for later or meaningful misdirection. The offense had to play each play perfectly to achieve the intended goal. Brady is likely using much of the same plays but stringing them together into a story. The motion isn’t merely for show, it actually affects the play. That misdirection means even if the Bills have 1 of 11 slightly off the play, the misdirection will give the needed grace period to create the play anyway. 
 

The other thing Brady showed against Dallas, was a willingness to pound a weakness mercilessly and wait for the Cowboys to change. I’d safely assume had they started putting another LB out there and played to stop Cook that we would have pivoted to the pass. But since all they did was some minor window treatments, we just kept going with what worked. This being an issue even Daboll had.

[NickelCity]

2 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

The other thing Brady showed against Dallas, was a willingness to pound a weakness mercilessly and wait for the Cowboys to change. I’d safely assume had they started putting another LB out there and played to stop Cook that we would have pivoted to the pass. But since all they did was some minor window treatments, we just kept going with what worked. This being an issue even Daboll had.

 

🎯

[Scott7975]

Dorsey sucked. Dorsey is thankfully gone. Been banging that drum until it happened. Offense is better now. Hopefully it keeps getting better and hopefully they invest more in skill positions next season. 

[BigDingus]

I'm not buying that Dorsey was the main reason either, though I do agree he didn't help. 

 

Pre-firing, everyone was pointing out the long history of McDermott coaching blunders, saying he was running out of bodies to throw under the bus for his mistakes. 

 

Never had it been more clear than after the Broncos game, where 12 men on the field allowed the another FG attempt to steal the win. Dorsey's offense looked inept, but it was another game blown by the defensive side of the ball.

 

Even after the OC change, the Eagles game showed us that same issue again. 

 

Though we're riding high now, this team had similar issues even with Daboll as OC. Josh being 0-7 in OT isn't normal, or the equally bad record in 1 score games. 

 

And remember the posts in the gameday thread as the game started? People couldn't believe how easy the defense was getting carved up. The offense falling apart in the snow was nothing new, but it seeing a top ranked defense choke so bad was embarrassing. 

 

Now I do feel the inability to run hurt, but the Bengals had no issue passing all over the place. They looked great in the snow & on the road, Allen looked lost & we couldn't run to help. 

 

But that was a huge issue due to inferior OL imo. We have a lot of the same guys, but this is the first year they've all stayed on the field together nearly all year! The additions, their overall health, and the improved play (Spencer Brown especially), give us a much better chance.

 

Let's be real though, Allen wasn't very good either. He wasn't good in the Miami WC, and he was struggling for weeks before that. 

 

The Bengals game was a total failure from all levels. The HC, the OC, the OL, the defense, the injuries and yes, even the QB.

 

Hopefully this year will be different, but we still have to sustain this level of play & get into the playoffs in the first place. Take it one game at a time, and don't overlook ANY opponent.

[DrDawkinstein]

I dont agree with OP that Dorsey was the main reason for the whole-team collapse against Cincy.

 

I do believe Dorsey was absolutely the topic behind the Diggs/Allen spat, and exactly who Diggs was referring to when he was yelling at Josh to "Stop listening to HIM!"

 

Diggs knew Dorsey was ruining Josh by feeding him BS scheme rules like "If you see 1 high Safety, go long to Davis" which Cincy was baiting us into all game while Diggs was open underneath.

 

But the whole-team collapse was absolutely a culmination of all those things that happened starting with a mass shooting and brother dying, and only spiraling further from there.

[Mister Defense]

20 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I'm no fan of Dorsey, but this is an awful take.

 

Thank you very much; what an insightful addition to this conversation.   

 

You must have thought quite a bit about this response, as it demonstrates a certain degree of intelligence, specificity and insight that all posters probably appreciate.

 

Very thoughtful, knowledgeable--I would hate to be in actual debate with you!

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Thank you very much; what an insightful addition to this conversation.   

 

You must have thought quite a bit about this response, as it demonstrates a certain degree of intelligence, specificity and insight that all posters probably appreciate.

 

Very thoughtful, knowledgeable--I would hate to be in actual debate with you!

 

 

 

My man, if youre going to throw out a thread like this and then get personal with anyone who disagrees with you, I'd suggest finding a more productive hobby through the holidays.

 

What more insight do you want there? You said the Bills O under Dorsey was the worst coached offense in the NFL?!?!? That is a MAJOR absolute to throw down, and absolutes will always get criticized heavily. Rightfully so.

 

Watch the Panthers. Watch the Falcons. Watch the Raiders. Watch the Bears. Watch the Patriots. Watch the Cardinals.

 

Cmon man.

 

Although on second thought, starting pissing matches with both BADOL and WEO might be some quality entertainment during this slow week. Proceed.

[Mister Defense]

20 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Your hindsight is 50/50.......congrats.

 

The team on the field now is not the same as the one at the end of last season..........the talent on offense is significantly better.......guys like Torrence/McGovern/Kincaid weren't with the team..........and the development of Spencer Brown and James Cook among others has been significant they weren't nearly the players they are now.    And they've been healthier.  

 

On defense they aren't just relying on Tim Settle and Ed Oliver to rotate as the 1 tech like they were in that Cinci game........Leonard Floyd and Rasul Douglas are big upgrades at key starting positions.........with the pass rush and LOS play improved the back 7 in general is more effective even though last years back 7 had Milano and Edmunds. 

 

There is no doubt they were emotionally sapped at the end of last season and they also didn't have the horse's to overcome it against a strong Cinci team(unfortunately even with the Bengals OL banged up) like they did versus Miami the week before.         

 

What?????? Yo clearly did not read my post--no way.  You would have seen that I was making that main point about that game to make my points about this year.

 

So the rest of our eyes were just deceiving us?

 

Those first half shut outs and such, the Bills teams scraping to get back in the game, over and over, having no answers on offense, could not move the ball, the chains, and, most of all, score, were only a mirage??

 

And the overnight--5 days later-- dramatic changes I thought I saw against the Jets, and then again and again since then, the improvements, the offense moving the ball very often with ease, the dramatic improvement of the running game, line play, and then the overall complimentary football, with the defense feeding off the offense and visa versa--all of that never really happened?

 

I am very confused!  Why do you not mention the things we all saw, except a few, obviously, early this season, and then AD?

[Mister Defense]

20 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Did anyone not expect the offense to improve later in the season whether they changed play callers or not?   

 

Dorsey began the season with a directive to not get Josh Allen beaten up.

 

They were playing "not to lose Josh" and just get thru these easy opponents offensively for the last month before Dorsey got canned.

 

And the reality is they do not have the talent at WR to just make their QB stay in the pocket with the way defense's are attacking big play offense's this season.

 

Dorsey's exit coincided with the team letting Josh be Josh.   The threat of Allen using every skill at his disposal opens up the run game.   The passing game is still out of sync and very punchless but now that every option is on the table they can look more like they have when they've played with desperation in the past.   

 

This season is not just an extension of last season.......so much has changed beyond just the offensive play caller.

 

 

So, these dramatic changes we have seen AD, the Bills almost overnight once again looking like a Super Bowl contender, quickly becoming one of the top 3 teams in the NFL, and, of course, the team building on these changes, week after week now, YOU believe that they were all coming anyway, naturally, with Dorsey too?

 

No, in answer to your opening question, I cannot believe almost anyone was thinking that! Or that almost anyone believes the change to Brady was not the catalyst for these dramatic changes in the Bills' performance.  I assume, as you don't back that statement up with anything, that it is just your intuition guiding you..

 

 

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

34 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

 

 

Never had it been more clear than after the Broncos game, where 12 men on the field allowed the another FG attempt to steal the win. Dorsey's offense looked inept, but it was another game blown by the defensive side of the ball.

 

 

Agreed. Let’s be real too. In that game the offense was not inept because of Dorsey. The players could not hang onto the ball. If they have one turnover instead of the four they had on the night the offense likely scores 30+ 

 

 

[Mister Defense]

19 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Yes I would think he gets another job as OC at some point

 

On this post in this thread, I completely agree with you.

 

I think if there is a (very poorly performing) high school football team out there, or middle school team, in desperate need, and they think a former NFL coach might help them out, then yes, Dorsey may once again become an OC.

 

Shoot, I will take the next step--he might even be anointed as their head coach.

 

[T master]

On 11/19/2023 at 1:16 PM, Utah John said:

Essentially Dorsey accomplished what no NFL defensive coordinator was able to do for the past four years:  he stopped the Bills offense.

 

But since it was clear that Dorsey wasn't getting the job done, it fell to the guy in charge, Sean McDermott, to step in and get things right.  And I think McD's repeated failures either to fix problems, or to own up for mistakes or problems, is what's eating out this team from the inside out.  Time and again, something goes wrong with the Bills, and McD NEVER takes the blame publicly.  This is exactly wrong.  

 

The players won't respect a man as a coach if they don't respect the coach as a man.  And when the players see McD continually blaming the coaches on his staff, or the players, each time it happens a little more respect bleeds away.  And now the Bills are bled dry.  All McD had to do to prevent this or to fix it, was to stand up after another botched play, and say, boy that was bad and it's on me.  Thirteen seconds, and 12 men, are now code words for McD's failures, and what happened is he fired the ST coordinator and the offensive coordinator.  

 

At this point I think it's too late even if he starts taking the blame for things, especially things we and the players all know were not his fault.  

 

If the Bills window closes, it'll be because McD is still the HC. He needs to be gone. 

 

I have never heard McD throw any one under the bus you must have a different news feed than most of us . McD has made mistakes but has from anything i've seen tried to fix the problem & if a coordinator is having problems getting a job done has given them more than enough rope to hang them selves .

 

I feel that's why Frazier was let go . McD saw other things that he could do & wouldn't in those times that they needed to be done due to his defensive back ground and although Frazier had a top 5 D every year he wasn't getting it done the way McD thought he should have so they parted ways .

 

Dorsey thinking to be taught by Dabol in some ways was the natural choice to take over but seeing the production going from Dabol to Dorcey & the decline McD like a good HC first fired Dorcey & then put in place someone they hired as a competent coach in Brady to take over & quite possibly be the better option moving forward .

 

All of y'all hate on McD and would rather take the chance of bringing in a HC that could very possibly do what Rex did & F up everything all the way around or have someone like Brandon Staley that looked really good as a coordinator but not as a HC to go backwards where the Bills came out of by hiring McD .

 

But i'll take my chances with a guy that although maybe a little slow on the uptake will make the proper corrections to keep our Bills a winner rather than falling into the Charger, Bears category ...

 

Oh while i'm at it who would be a good replacement if by chance the Pegs were ever foolish enough to get rid of McD & Beane which y'all are complaining so much about . If you could guarantee that your choice for HC could do as good or better than McD i might go for it but the NFL and the Bills have seen that movie play out before .

[GunnerBill]

Dorsey will get another shot and it wouldn't shock me if he is good if he ends up somewhere with weapons. His issue here was with a mediocre overall set of weapons and his scheme was just too vanilla and asked too much of execution from the guys he had. Just some minor tweaks in shifts, motion and route combos under Brady and the same offense has found more ways to move the ball. Which isn't to say it is all perfect. Some of the issues Dorsey was battling against remain. 

[dave mcbride]

16 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

So, these dramatic changes we have seen AD, the Bills almost overnight once again looking like a Super Bowl contender, quickly becoming one of the top 3 teams in the NFL, and, of course, the team building on these changes, week after week now, YOU believe that they were all coming anyway, naturally, with Dorsey too?

 

No, in answer to your opening question, I cannot believe almost anyone was thinking that! Or that almost anyone believes the change to Brady was not the catalyst for these dramatic changes in the Bills' performance.  I assume, as you don't back that statement up with anything, that it is just your intuition guiding you..

 

 

 

 

I look forward to how this debate is going to go. Good luck.