Time to rewrite the Conventional Wisdom on the playoff loss to Bengals--and the new CW on Dorsey too

[PBF81]

On 11/19/2023 at 2:44 PM, Mister Defense said:

 

In truth, I think he is to blame--he hired someone completely incompetent, who didn't seem to know even the basics of game planning, game changes, formations, at least beyond the very superficial.

 

Was there an extensive interview process involved?  It doesn't seem there was, and that maybe Dorsey was just put into the position.

 

And I definitely blame McDermott for not firing him as soon as the season ended last year--and then again when the team looked almost exactly the same in their first preseason game.

 

The buck stops with the head coach, in my book. 

 

Let's see how this move, too late maybe?, works, but Sean will be held to account, to some degree if this is a lost season.

 

A huge part of McD's problem is that he, admittedly, doesn't know offense, which is a monumental problem when Allen is the focal point of your team.  

 

Yet, he stood by Dorsey like he stood by Peterman, ignorantly.  

 

If Allen had shown up before McD, McD never would have gotten this particular job.  He's a better fit for a team that has an average or even mediocre QB, and that has acquiesced to their D being the focal point of their team. 

 

And since we were talking about how the Bills would have to go through the interview process to make Brady the OC, why didn't they have to do that with Dorsey after Daboll left? 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

 

And since we were talking about how the Bills would have to go through the interview process to make Brady the OC, why didn't they have to do that with Dorsey after Daboll left? 

 

 

 

They did. They interviewed three people I think. Ken Dorsey was one, Tee Martin (currently Ravens QB coach but was then WR coach) was a second and I'm sure there was one more but it is escaping me now who that was.

 

EDIT: It was Edgar Bennett the former Packers OC. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by GunnerBill

[VaMilBill]

Dorsey was a terrible OC. I was happy he was promoted to OC with the departure of Daboll. But the second half of last season was pretty evident that he did not have the ability to be a good OC. It looked like our offensive scheme was to let josh go out there and make things happen. 
 

I had seen enough of Ken after last season and wanted him fired because we can’t keep wasting Josh’s prime. I really thought when we brought him back that was a mistake. But I also thought he should be on a short leash in the very least (didn’t seem like he leash was short enough). He should have been fired after the patriots game this year. At that point our offense was lower middle class and wasn’t really doing much to help out our team. 
 

It’s funny, Ken may go down as one of the worst coaches the bills have ever employed save Kay Stephenson and some other old farts I have no clue about. I’m only 30

[Mister Defense]

15 hours ago, ToGoGo said:

 

My sense is that the "big picture concept" that Brady is doing is the same "concept" that Dorsey tried to do but in an exceptionally incompetent manner. 

 

What I mean by "big picture concept" is to transition our offense around Allen from one that Allen carries by himself to one that carries him and allows him to make great plays only when we need great plays from him.

 

Basically, we want to give Allen what Mahomes has had since his 1st day in the league. If you ignore the negative connotation of the top image, you'll see what I mean. 

 

 

 

Mahomes has been carried by the amazing parts around him, which allowed Mahomes to max out his skills and make the great plays only when he needed to. Allen on the other hand, has had to drag the team around him to glory. You saw this at it's peak during the Daboll years where Daboll once ran Allen on a designed QB run during the Bucs, two plays after Allen injured himself. They were running him into the ground.

 

McDermott and Beane (correctly) made this realization and wanted a new OC who would bring this mentality to the offense. This is where Dorsey came in, and was given the assignment from the bosses, to create an offense that does not live and die with Allen's legs and heroics. 

 

This was actually the right move. The problem was, as you noted in the OP and opened my eyes to, was Dorsey's extreme incompetence at play calling and preparation. The move was right, but the wrong man was given the job.

 

What we're seeing from Brady is the same concept as the image on the top that Dorsey attempted, but with solid (and growing) efficiency. This is why we are seeing the run game more, Kincaid more, and Diggs and Davis less. We're balancing out the offense the correct way, allowing Allen to use his legs, but not living and dying with his legs and arm like Daboll did. Dorsey unfortunately took some years off of Diggs prime, and may have ruined Davis mentally just as he was ready to breakout.

 

To answer your question succinctly, I think we want to build a team that can win with Allen as a game manager (like we saw against Dallas), while making the great plays when we need them (the way a true game manager like Purdy couldn't if the chips were on the table and a DE was in his face and his routes weren't ready).  

 

 

Thanks, an excellent, succinct, supported analysis here. I really like that you bring in Dabolll here too and the criticism of how he  ran the offense, relying way too much on Alen.  I think we all almost forget that they were once 7-6 two years ago, and that Daboll was not using their players effectively.  While the Bills had proven they could run the ball well, except for Allen, overall, the rest of the running game seemed to be more or less an afterthought too often.

 

I was there for the opener against Pittsburgh when their defense was teeing off on Allen.  We were screaming for the Bills to run the ball, but they didn't listen to us!  At halftime a guy I was with pointed out that Allen ran the ball 8 times (or something similar) and that the running backs ran the ball fewer times. 

 

I assume McDermott was at least partly responsible, if not insisting, that that change. 

 

The Bills then went to Singletary as their bell cow and the running game became integral---and they ran the table that year. They became the best running team in the NFL during that stretch.  It was that change that then allowed Allen and the offense to be superb in the playoffs, unstoppable against the pats and Chiefs.

 

 I assume  Dorsey would have liked to have a more diverse offense! But I honestly believe he did not know how to do many of the essential things an NFL coordinator could do.

 

I think what I say on page two over a month ago , beginning with "After one game the Bills offense now have an identity developing...",  is a good representation of what you are saying here. They are the result of these things you speak of.  It is what I wanted the Bills to be from the beginning of the year three years ago.  Because when they have those qualities they symbolize Buffalo and this area so well--and also show that they can win it all, can beat anyone, anywhere.  Now, they will keep progressing this year and into the playoffs...

 

This is the Bills, what they should have been all along.

 

I love that picture, the difference so clearly shown between a 'boss' and a 'leader' and will use it in the future.

 

 

[Mister Defense]

9 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Dorsey could call plays, Brady can call games it seems. It’s the difference between being capable of writing and being an author. Both can play in the same sand box but only the latter will build a castle. 
 

Daboll’s offense was the basis to Dorsey’s offense to which he modified from there to include more 21 personnel and less Josh runs. The issue seemed to be that no matter how good one play could be in a vacuum; they all were individual plays. There was no setting up for later or meaningful misdirection. The offense had to play each play perfectly to achieve the intended goal. Brady is likely using much of the same plays but stringing them together into a story. The motion isn’t merely for show, it actually affects the play. That misdirection means even if the Bills have 1 of 11 slightly off the play, the misdirection will give the needed grace period to create the play anyway. 
 

The other thing Brady showed against Dallas, was a willingness to pound a weakness mercilessly and wait for the Cowboys to change. I’d safely assume had they started putting another LB out there and played to stop Cook that we would have pivoted to the pass. But since all they did was some minor window treatments, we just kept going with what worked. This being an issue even Daboll had.

 

Great take, and, yeah, that ability that Brady showed us on Sunday, to do keep doing what is working, and make the other team stop it, is a grrreat quality.  It shows that he does not have too much of an ego to just drop some of his plans to nail the other team to the wall.

 

After a great start against the Chiefs, running the ball soo well, I thought Dorsey had somehow gotten into the coach's box, had tied up the new coaches and had taken over the play calling again.  They had stopped doing what had made them so successful early in the game and prevented them from running away with that game, blowing them out.   BUT, Brady got on track, almost too late, yes, and they ran the ball like madmen on that late drive to win the game. 

 

Another great example, I think, of what Brady brings to the table.

 

So early in his tenure here, but such great signs that we now have a very high quality, dynamic offensive coordinator to take the Bills to the next level.  McDermott made a huge, catastrophic error in choosing Dorsey, and knows it,  so he must be smiling from ear to ear now whenever he thinks about Brady. May even have Brady's picture on his pillow case by now..

 

 

[GoBills808]

16 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

 

Thanks, an excellent, succinct, supported analysis here. I really like that you bring in Dabolll here too and the criticism of how he  ran the offense, relying way too much on Alen.  I think we all almost forget that they were once 7-6 two years ago, and that Daboll was not using their players effectively.  While the Bills had proven they could run the ball well, except for Allen, overall, the rest of the running game seemed to be more or less an afterthought too often.

 

I was there for the opener against Pittsburgh when their defense was teeing off on Allen.  We were screaming for the Bills to run the ball, but they didn't listen to us!  At halftime a guy I was with pointed out that Allen ran the ball 8 times (or something similar) and that the running backs ran the ball fewer times. 

 

I assume McDermott was at least partly responsible, if not insisting, that that change. 

 

The Bills then went to Singletary as their bell cow and the running game became integral---and they ran the table that year. They became the best running team in the NFL during that stretch.  It was that change that then allowed Allen and the offense to be superb in the playoffs, unstoppable against the pats and Chiefs.

 

 I assume  Dorsey would have liked to have a more diverse offense! But I honestly believe he did not know how to do many of the essential things an NFL coordinator could do.

 

I think what I say on page two over a month ago , beginning with "After one game the Bills offense now have an identity developing...",  is a good representation of what you are saying here. They are the result of these things you speak of.  It is what I wanted the Bills to be from the beginning of the year three years ago.  Because when they have those qualities they symbolize Buffalo and this area so well--and also show that they can win it all, can beat anyone, anywhere.  Now, they will keep progressing this year and into the playoffs...

 

This is the Bills, what they should have been all along.

 

I love that picture, the difference so clearly shown between a 'boss' and a 'leader' and will use it in the future.

 

 

 have to believe at this point you are just saying things to support your thesis but have no actual  basis in reality

 

Allen is running the ball significantly more under Brady than he did Dorsey this year

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Yeah I’m not writing that whole loss off on Dorsey.

 

The Bengals physically dominated the Bills and mentally intimidated the Bills in both meetings last year. 
 

Mixon could have ran for 200 yards if the Bengals wanted it that day. 

 

And I knew we were going to get rocked in that game as soon as Leslie Frazier said they were going to reuse the same gameplan from the Monday Nighter. 
 

Our Head Coach was running around saying you couldn’t really take anything out of the Monday Night game. 
 

The crowd knew it as well because they were non-existent from the first snap. 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck

[finn]

51 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

And since we were talking about how the Bills would have to go through the interview process to make Brady the OC, why didn't they have to do that with Dorsey after Daboll left? 

 

 

My understanding is that McDermott hired Dorsey largely because Allen pushed hard for him. That was a mistake. I wonder if McDermott was uneasy with his decision at the time. 

I also wonder if Beane drafted Kincaid instead of LaPorta because Allen pushed for him. Not saying it was the wrong choice necessarily, but it crossed my mind that McDermott and Beane may be bending over backwards to please Allen, possibly against their better judgment. 

[Mister Defense]

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 have to believe at this point you are just saying things to support your thesis but have no actual  basis in reality

 

Allen is running the ball significantly more under Brady than he did Dorsey this year

 

Umm, I never said that we should not run Allen--but am, I thought, clearly making the point that the running game, the use of the running backs themselves, was a problem. That was true under Daboll, overall, and blatantly clear under Dorsey.  The running game with the running backs was too often just something to throw in there once in a while under Dorsey, just to maybe keep the boss happy-?

 

I love me some Josh Allen running!, but he was too often the only real running threat in the past.

 

Not now, and Brady is clearly committed to running and running, like he should be.  As he knows that is what will make Josh Allen--and the Bills--great.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Mister Defense

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Umm, I never said that we should not run Allen--but am, I thought, clearly making the point that the running game, the use of the running backs themselves, was a problem. That was true under Daboll, overall, and blatantly clear under Dorsey.  The running game with the running backs was too often just something to throw in there once in a while under Dorsey, just to maybe keep the boss happy-?

 

I love me some Josh Allen running!, but he was too often the only real running threat in the past.

 

Not now, and Brady is clearly committed to running and running, like he should be.  As he knows that is what will make Josh Allen--and the Bills--great.

 

Yeah the quality of athlete increased, that’s the difference.

 

Instead of taking 4.66 backs out of Florida Atlantic, 4.65 “business decisions” out of Utah, leaning on 35-year old Frank Gore, recycled guys like TJ Yeldon and Matt Breida - the Bills got a 4.41 talent with NFL pedigree out of a National Championship winning program.

 

We stunk at running the ball because the line was scabbed together and our running backs were slow. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Mister Defense said:

 

So, these dramatic changes we have seen AD, the Bills almost overnight once again looking like a Super Bowl contender, quickly becoming one of the top 3 teams in the NFL, and, of course, the team building on these changes, week after week now, YOU believe that they were all coming anyway, naturally, with Dorsey too?

 

No, in answer to your opening question, I cannot believe almost anyone was thinking that! Or that almost anyone believes the change to Brady was not the catalyst for these dramatic changes in the Bills' performance.  I assume, as you don't back that statement up with anything, that it is just your intuition guiding you..

 

 

 

 

 

The dramatic change was Allen being encouraged(and schemed) to attack defense's with his full range of skills again.   Until they lost that Denver game they were still playing to keep Allen healthy for the stretch drive.

 

The very next game against the Jets Allen was running the ball again and taking hits, fighting for extra yards and getting dragged down awkwardly........but he's been extending drives and opening up the run game for the RB's in the process.

 

I like some of the non-Allen-running adjustments that Brady has made but they are subtle......NOT "dramatic".

 

You were probably one of the people complaining about running Cook out of shotgun under Dorsey, right?   "Everybody knows what's coming!" Well, now that they are having to account for Allen possibly pulling the ball and running.........those plays are starting to look a little more effective, aren't they?    

 

The passing game is still not looking good at all.   One of the underrated aspects of the Bills "bad" losses and/or poor offensive showings this season was that, aside from the familiarity matchup against Daboll, they came to defense's that have played well in general this season.   I had no problem changing Dorsey out but let's not pretend he could NOT change or adapt at all.   He drew up very unexpected gameplans against the Rams in the opener last season, in the Tampa game this year and he adjusted the offense to Allen's UCL injury last year to great effect.    He was a raw rookie in 2022 and replaceable either way but he wasn't single handedly handicapping the Bills offense.   That was a team effort.

 

Hopefully they find something in the passing game this week against a Chargers defense that is in shambles......like the way they did with the Cowboys terrible run defense without Hankins......but if they had lost that low scoring nail biter in KC the narrative about Brady isn't how good he's been.   Nope.   It's how Stefon Diggs disappeared under his watch and whether Brady even deserves a chance at returning since the Bills season would have been all but over at that point.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by BADOLBILZ

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, finn said:

My understanding is that McDermott hired Dorsey largely because Allen pushed hard for him. That was a mistake. I wonder if McDermott was uneasy with his decision at the time. 

I also wonder if Beane drafted Kincaid instead of LaPorta because Allen pushed for him. Not saying it was the wrong choice necessarily, but it crossed my mind that McDermott and Beane may be bending over backwards to please Allen, possibly against their better judgment. 

 

Possibly, but a big part of that is because McD doesn't know offense.

 

Either way, who's in charge, Allen or McD.  

 

It's a questionable look at best.  

 

They are enough general team and defensive SNAFUs to implicate McD in the grand scheme.  

 

As to Kincaid vs. LaPorta, there are too many variables to compare them outright fairly.  For example, Kinaid would probably be doing better on Detroit and visa versa re: LaPorta.  

 

The whole draft world had Kinaid as the better receiving TE.  

 

 

[JohnNord]

21 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

your analysis concluded that the Bills (Offense?) was the worst coached team in the NFL under Dorsey?  That conclusion clearly required NO thought process.

 

 

Bills under Dorsey were #2 in scoring and yards last year.  Sure, Cook had a once in a career (so far) game last week and Brady went with the hot hand. But you can't be serious about the worst coaching in the NFL.  why take such a bad look?  unforced error...

 

I wouldn’t necessarily say they were poorly coached.  I do think the play calling and overall scheme were lackluster, relied too much on Josh and Diggs, and did always play to the strengths of the talent.  

Edited December 21, 2023 by JohnNord

[GoBills808]

47 minutes ago, finn said:

My understanding is that McDermott hired Dorsey largely because Allen pushed hard for him. That was a mistake. I wonder if McDermott was uneasy with his decision at the time. 

I also wonder if Beane drafted Kincaid instead of LaPorta because Allen pushed for him. Not saying it was the wrong choice necessarily, but it crossed my mind that McDermott and Beane may be bending over backwards to please Allen, possibly against their better judgment. 

McDermott hired Dorsey in 2019 after they spent 6 years together in Carolina

 

the idea that he was somehow Allen's guy is a rewrite

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Agree Dorsey was terrible. Diggs knew and our HC tried to paint Diggs as a malcontent.

But how do you explain no QB pressure against a Bengals OL missing multiple starters?  

It was a total team fail. 

[JohnNord]

29 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Possibly, but a big part of that is because McD doesn't know offense.

 

Either way, who's in charge, Allen or McD.  

 

It's a questionable look at best.  

 

They are enough general team and defensive SNAFUs to implicate McD in the grand scheme.  

 

As to Kincaid vs. LaPorta, there are too many variables to compare them outright fairly.  For example, Kinaid would probably be doing better on Detroit and visa versa re: LaPorta.  

 

The whole draft world had Kinaid as the better receiving TE.  

 

 

I’d agree with you on the LaPorta vs. Kincaid debate.  I think the Bills went with the TE with a higher ceiling.  
 

But the 2 TE offense is an interesting subject.  We don’t know whether it was Dorsey or Beane that initially pushed for that personnel.  It’s probably both, but I might argue Beane was the one who pushed it initially.  
 

I remember an interview he did with Pat McAfee after the Kincaid selection and he talked about how good the offense in Carolina was when they had Jeremy Shockey and Greg Olsen.   He tried this last season as well with the signing of OJ Howard.  
 

In fact, you can make the argument he tried this in 2021 by signing Jacob Hollister who was coming off two good seasons.  This is before Dorsey was OC.  
 

 

 

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

McDermott hired Dorsey in 2019 after they spent 6 years together in Carolina

 

the idea that he was somehow Allen's guy is a rewrite

No it really wasn’t.  After Daboll left every news outlet reported Allen pushed for Dorsey as OC as the became close in the QB room.   Obviously he had a past with McDermott and Beane which likely helped, but I believe the desire to keep continuity after Daboll, was the biggest reason Dorsey was hired.  

Edited December 21, 2023 by JohnNord

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I’d agree with you on the LaPorta vs. Kincaid debate.  I think the Bills went with the TE with a higher ceiling.  
 

But the 2 TE offense is an interesting subject.  We don’t know whether it was Dorsey or Beane that initially pushed for that personnel.  It’s probably both, but I might argue Beane was the one who pushed it initially.  
 

I remember an interview he did with Pat McAfee after the Kincaid selection and he talked about how good the offense in Carolina was when they had Jeremy Shockey and Greg Olsen.   He tried this last season as well with the signing of OJ Howard.  
 

In fact, you can make the argument he tried this in 2021 by signing Jacob Hollister who was coming off two good seasons.  This is before Dorsey was OC.  
 

 

 

No it really wasn’t.  After Daboll left every news outlet reported Allen pushed for Dorsey as OC as the became close in the QB room.   Obviously he had a past with McDermott and Beane which likely helped, but I believe the desire to keep continuity after Daboll, was the biggest reason Dorsey was hired.  

tf is he supposed to say, no don't hire the guy who's already here as my QB coach because i demand we get someone from outside

[JohnNord]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

tf is he supposed to say, no don't hire the guy who's already here as my QB coach because i demand we get someone from outside

No but if you’re the franchise QB and you have concerns, you also aren’t going to sit on your arse and allow it to happen either.

 

This is a completely made up narrative.  If this was being reported in 2021, how could it be a “re-write?”

 

The truth mostly likely is that both the Bills and Josh Allen had confidence that Ken Dorsey could be a good OC.  And yes, Josh pushed for him too

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, finn said:

My understanding is that McDermott hired Dorsey largely because Allen pushed hard for him. That was a mistake. I wonder if McDermott was uneasy with his decision at the time. 

I also wonder if Beane drafted Kincaid instead of LaPorta because Allen pushed for him. Not saying it was the wrong choice necessarily, but it crossed my mind that McDermott and Beane may be bending over backwards to please Allen, possibly against their better judgment. 

That was my initial understanding to but the comments from McD during the pre- season and during the season made me think that McD wanted Dorsey and that Allen at most had veto power. This is a very different thing then Allen advocating for Dorsey.  My sense from McD's comments is that he wanted an OC who was on the same page as he was with respect to how to use Allen and how the offense might compliment his defense.

 

I believe that the clear change in Allen's playing style during this season when Dorsey was in charge, changes that were telegraphed by McD in interviews during the off season, was Dorsey trying to run the offense with McD/Bean demanding that Allen be exposed to less hits.  After Dorsey was let go and Allen had one of his signature runs against the Jets he jumps up and screams enthusiastically "I'm f#### back!".  It was clear to me that Allen was chaffing under the Dorsey/McD restrictions he was asked to operate under.

 

We all saw that Allen was joyless and seemed to have the weight of the world on his shoulders trying to execute the O according to the McD/Dorsey plan.  Then Dorsey is gone and McD has a come to Jesus moment and Allen is allowed to return to his old style of play and now he's smiling and acting like the Josh Allen of old.  The evidence of this is plain to see and overwhelming.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by CincyBillsFan

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

McDermott hired Dorsey in 2019 after they spent 6 years together in Carolina

 

the idea that he was somehow Allen's guy is a rewrite

 

Josh and Dors were close. But I agree this wasn't some case of Josh Allen picking the OC. They were grooming Dorsey for that job already, had made him passing game coordinator, McDermott likely considered Josh's comfort with him as a factor but he didn't hire Ken Dorsey because Josh wanted him. Responsibility for the hire belongs with the Head Coach. 

[Alphadawg7]

I said it all last year...all offseason...and screamed all season long this year...DORSEY was the problem.  

 

I understood the hiring, promoting within with a guy Josh liked.  But the moment he was hired, my concern was his lack of experience and essentially learning on the job during the prime years of Diggs and Allen.  It posed the risk of wasting that time while he learned on the job if he didn't excel early...and he didn't excel ever.

 

He was terrible at use of personnel, play design, scheming guys open, utilizing his RB's as runners and receivers, creating motion with purpose, etc.  The offensive numbers were misleading...the play to play, drive to drive, game to game consistency, efficiency and smoothness were all lacking.  Allen, Diggs, and company can mask and overcome the OC deficiencies enough to still put up season end stats, but the offense had issues the entire Dorsey tenure.

 

Quite honestly, even though its a small sample size, the offense is even better than it was under Daboll even.  Daboll had his own issues (allergic to running the ball for starters) and often would just call the dumbest plays in key moments as if he was trying to be the star of that moment with something tricky rather than smart.  

 

If things continue, not only do I think Brady will remain as OC and could end up being the best one Josh has had so far.  And I would think he would be a prime candidate to replace McD if there was a change made this year or next?

[Matt_In_NH]

revisionists history?

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, JohnNord said:

I wouldn’t necessarily say they were poorly coached.  I do think the play calling and overall scheme were lackluster, relied too much on Josh and Diggs, and did always play to the strengths of the talent.  

maybe.  Let’s see Brady put together another game like that 

[Cash]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Josh and Dors were close. But I agree this wasn't some case of Josh Allen picking the OC. They were grooming Dorsey for that job already, had made him passing game coordinator, McDermott likely considered Josh's comfort with him as a factor but he didn't hire Ken Dorsey because Josh wanted him. Responsibility for the hire belongs with the Head Coach. 

 

I was one of the many people calling for Dorsey's firing this year, and I'm glad he was fired - the results are clear as day on the field.  But some of these people pretending the hire was out of left field or nepotism or whatever?  That's weird.  Either terrible memories, or just being blinded by pre-existing notions about McDermott.

 

At the time of Daboll's departure, Dorsey was the QB coach who worked with Allen during Allen's meteoric rise.  Whoever filled that QB coach spot from 2019-2021 was guaranteed to be a hot name for OC jobs, even without prior OC or playcalling experience.  I believe it was widely reported that Daboll offered Dorsey the OC job with the Giants.  On top of that, it's typical for a team who loses a coordinator to a HC job to look to promote someone in-house for continuity purposes.  Dorsey was the natural and obvious in-house candidate, and had the public endorsement of our star QB.

 

Now, was it a good hire?  No, obviously not.  Was it in any way controversial at the time?  No.  Is it possible to guarantee success with any hire?  Also no.  In hindsight, maybe the Bills should've interviewed some outside candidates, but I don't think it would've made any difference - Dorsey likely would've had the strongest resume regardless of who interviewed.  Especially when considering the choice was between "promote Dorsey and backfill QB coach" or "outside hire OC and still backfill QB coach, b/c Dorsey's OC for the Giants."

 

Where I think the Bills/McDermott really went wrong was in bringing back Dorsey for 2023.  Behind the scenes, there must have been warning signs in 2022 that Dorsey wasn't going to be the guy.  But I also think it's pretty unfair to criticize McDermott for not firing Dorsey after 1 season on the job.  If he had, it would've been very controversial and drawn a ton of negative press.  Probably would've been the right move in hindsight, but I don't recall seeing a single opinion either in media or on this board calling for Dorsey's dismissal this offseason.

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, Cash said:

 

I was one of the many people calling for Dorsey's firing this year, and I'm glad he was fired - the results are clear as day on the field.  But some of these people pretending the hire was out of left field or nepotism or whatever?  That's weird.  Either terrible memories, or just being blinded by pre-existing notions about McDermott.

 

At the time of Daboll's departure, Dorsey was the QB coach who worked with Allen during Allen's meteoric rise.  Whoever filled that QB coach spot from 2019-2021 was guaranteed to be a hot name for OC jobs, even without prior OC or playcalling experience.  I believe it was widely reported that Daboll offered Dorsey the OC job with the Giants.  On top of that, it's typical for a team who loses a coordinator to a HC job to look to promote someone in-house for continuity purposes.  Dorsey was the natural and obvious in-house candidate, and had the public endorsement of our star QB.

 

Now, was it a good hire?  No, obviously not.  Was it in any way controversial at the time?  No.  Is it possible to guarantee success with any hire?  Also no.  In hindsight, maybe the Bills should've interviewed some outside candidates, but I don't think it would've made any difference - Dorsey likely would've had the strongest resume regardless of who interviewed.  Especially when considering the choice was between "promote Dorsey and backfill QB coach" or "outside hire OC and still backfill QB coach, b/c Dorsey's OC for the Giants."

 

Where I think the Bills/McDermott really went wrong was in bringing back Dorsey for 2023.  Behind the scenes, there must have been warning signs in 2022 that Dorsey wasn't going to be the guy.  But I also think it's pretty unfair to criticize McDermott for not firing Dorsey after 1 season on the job.  If he had, it would've been very controversial and drawn a ton of negative press.  Probably would've been the right move in hindsight, but I don't recall seeing a single opinion either in media or on this board calling for Dorsey's dismissal this offseason.

 

I agree with all this and they DID interview two external candidates before they hired Dorsey - who you are correct was Daboll's first choice for OC with the Giants. It wasn't a crazy hire and actually early on the Bills offense thrived in his slightly simplified version of the Daboll scheme. He stripped out some of the bells and whistles, focussed on running our core stuff and running it well. The issues arose when teams got the book on that a little bit and his scheme didn't evolve and as I said above I think it asked for too much in terms of consistent execution from an inconsistent set of players, especially skill guys.

 

I wouldn't have fired him last summer but I did have some doubts after year 1. I think they could have pulled the trigger a few weeks sooner after the Giants game which was as bad as the Bills have been on offense probably since that game Derek Anderson had to start. But that would be my only critcism.

 

That said when you hire a coordinator and it doesn't work out and you fire that guy within 2 years that is on the Head Coach ultimately and he has to own it. 

[Ayjent]

It was clear that he wasn’t putting the team in the best position to succeed, and it was obvious that he didn’t know how to build off of doing something successful against an opponent.  It also promoted a narrative that still exists that Josh has Diggs and not enough of a supporting cast of skill players. Thing is, I’m not sure we really know if there isn’t more talent than we think.  Cook has been a revelation the last several weeks, and I’m assuming that is going to start drawing more attention and less for Diggs and DKs.

[Cash]

54 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree with all this and they DID interview two external candidates before they hired Dorsey - who you are correct was Daboll's first choice for OC with the Giants. It wasn't a crazy hire and actually early on the Bills offense thrived in his slightly simplified version of the Daboll scheme. He stripped out some of the bells and whistles, focussed on running our core stuff and running it well. The issues arose when teams got the book on that a little bit and his scheme didn't evolve and as I said above I think it asked for too much in terms of consistent execution from an inconsistent set of players, especially skill guys.

 

I wouldn't have fired him last summer but I did have some doubts after year 1. I think they could have pulled the trigger a few weeks sooner after the Giants game which was as bad as the Bills have been on offense probably since that game Derek Anderson had to start. But that would be my only critcism.

 

That said when you hire a coordinator and it doesn't work out and you fire that guy within 2 years that is on the Head Coach ultimately and he has to own it. 

I wouldn’t have fired Dorsey this past offseason either. With that said, I definitely had my doubts coming into the season. Dorsey/coaching was my only real concern on offense in preseason. I think I was pretty spot-on. 
 

I also think we could’ve benefitted from ditching Dorsey earlier. Some of that is just dumb luck, I think. The Giants game was probably the right time as you say. But rightly or wrongly, firing a coordinator after a win is Simply Not Done, and would present as major organizational dysfunction. 
 

And lastly: agreed on the bad hire ultimately going against the HC. Good process can lead to bad results, but that doesn’t mean that negative results can be ignored. Bottom line is that it was an unsuccessful hire, and that responsibility falls on the head coach. 

[Peter]

Some Perspective

 

Bengals Playoff Game

 

Interestingly, the PFF grades for the Bengals playoff game had the offense playing better than the defense:

 

Offense grade: 65.1

 

Defense grade: 60.5

 

This Season

 

Also interesting, in the five losses this season when Dorsey was OC, the offense graded better than the defense in all but one. In that one game, the offense and defense had identical grades.

 

Of course, everyone presumably knows about all of the game losing drives that the defense has given up this year and that we would be firmly in the playoffs but for our defense not playing (as one might say) "complementary football."

 

Also, in case you were wondering, the offense had better grades than the defense in each of our wins when Dorsey was the OC.

 

It is a shame our defensive coordinator cannot get his defense to play "complementary" football.

 

 

Go Bills!!!

 

Having said all of that, Go Bills and Go Joe B!!! 

 

[JohnNord]

6 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

That was my initial understanding to but the comments from McD during the pre- season and during the season made me think that McD wanted Dorsey and that Allen at most had veto power. This is a very different thing then Allen advocating for Dorsey.  My sense from McD's comments is that he wanted an OC who was on the same page as he was with respect to how to use Allen and how the offense might compliment his defense.

 

I believe that the clear change in Allen's playing style during this season when Dorsey was in charge, changes that were telegraphed by McD in interviews during the off season, was Dorsey trying to run the offense with McD/Bean demanding that Allen be exposed to less hits.  After Dorsey was let go and Allen had one of his signature runs against the Jets he jumps up and screams enthusiastically "I'm f#### back!".  It was clear to me that Allen was chaffing under the Dorsey/McD restrictions he was asked to operate under.

 

We all saw that Allen was joyless and seemed to have the weight of the world on his shoulders trying to execute the O according to the McD/Dorsey plan.  Then Dorsey is gone and McD has a come to Jesus moment and Allen is allowed to return to his old style of play and now he's smiling and acting like the Josh Allen of old.  The evidence of this is plain to see and overwhelming.

 

 

What “evidence?”  There’s past of what you said that I can agree with but most of what you wrote is opinion and conjecture disguised as “overwhelming” evidence.     
 

If read the reporting from people like Tim Graham and everyone else in the Buffalo beat. Allen was very close with Dorsey and supported him as OC.  It was reported that Dorsey was his “first choice” verbatim.  In fact, when Dorsey was fired, Graham referred to the move as proverbially grabbing Allen by the facemask and telling him to get his ***** together.  
 

I’ve always disagreed with the notion that Dorsey was just a puppet to McDermott.  If you read and believe the Ty Dunne article, McDermott had little involvement with the offense and spent most of his time on defense.  I’m sure he did emphasize protecting Josh more in the offense but I don’t think he was as involved as you do.  
 

I feel Dorsey’s offense was his attempt to evolve Josh into high percentage pocket passer to beat Cover 2 shell and then to take the deep shots when opportunities presented themselves.  Josh did fine.  Dorsey just wasn’t very good at play calling.

 

Here is the question - if McDermott and Beane were so hell bent on Josh not running in Dorsey’s offense, why would they just abandon it when Brady took over?  

[JohnNord]

3 hours ago, Peter said:

Some Perspective

 

Bengals Playoff Game

 

Interestingly, the PFF grades for the Bengals playoff game had the offense playing better than the defense:

 

Offense grade: 65.1

 

Defense grade: 60.5

 

This Season

 

Also interesting, in the five losses this season when Dorsey was OC, the offense graded better than the defense in all but one. In that one game, the offense and defense had identical grades.

 

Of course, everyone presumably knows about all of the game losing drives that the defense has given up this year and that we would be firmly in the playoffs but for our defense not playing (as one might say) "complementary football."

 

Also, in case you were wondering, the offense had better grades than the defense in each of our wins when Dorsey was the OC.

 

It is a shame our defensive coordinator cannot get his defense to play "complementary" football.

 

 

Go Bills!!!

 

Having said all of that, Go Bills and Go Joe B!!! 

 

If you go by PFF grades, Tyrell Dodson is the 3rd best linebacker in the NFL.   PFF are subjective and do shoddy job arguing the narrative you are trying to spin. 
 

No one is denying the Bills defense was terrible against Cincinnati or that it wasn’t a problem in the losses this season.  It clearly was an it’s been talked about to death.  

 

But look at the points scored by the offense in each of the games you claim the offense

“graded out” higher.

 

10

16

20

25

18

22

 

An average of 18.5 per loss.   But apparently because the PFF score was higher for the offense, it means that defense was the problem.

 

Also, another fact to destroy your narrative.  The defense lost 1 All Pro player (Milano, 1 player playing at an All Pro level (Jones) and one former All Pro player coming into this own (White) for the season.   Obviously losing a player at every level defense for the entire year is going to hurt.  
 

The offense meanwhile has been relatively healthy all season long.   What’s the excuse there?

 

Bottom line is that the right call was to move from Dorsey.  If he hadn’t been fired, the Bills would be in a much worse position.  For weeks we kept waiting for the offense to “get right.”  It didn’t happen until we hired a new OC.  

 

3 hours ago, Cash said:

I wouldn’t have fired Dorsey this past offseason either. With that said, I definitely had my doubts coming into the season. Dorsey/coaching was my only real concern on offense in preseason. I think I was pretty spot-on. 
 

I also think we could’ve benefitted from ditching Dorsey earlier. Some of that is just dumb luck, I think. The Giants game was probably the right time as you say. But rightly or wrongly, firing a coordinator after a win is Simply Not Done, and would present as major organizational dysfunction. 
 

And lastly: agreed on the bad hire ultimately going against the HC. Good process can lead to bad results, but that doesn’t mean that negative results can be ignored. Bottom line is that it was an unsuccessful hire, and that responsibility falls on the head coach. 

I think 14 points to a decent but undermanned Giants should have been a wake up call.  
 

Still at this point, the Bills were 4-2 and two weeks off an impressive dismantling Miami, Las Vegas and Washington averaging 41 points.  
 

The Jacksonville game was ugly but weird stuff happens in international games.  Last year the Bills won 14 games.  They were 4-2 after the suspect Giants victory.  I think Dorsey deserved more time to turn it around. 

[JohnNord]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I said it all last year...all offseason...and screamed all season long this year...DORSEY was the problem.  

 

I understood the hiring, promoting within with a guy Josh liked.  But the moment he was hired, my concern was his lack of experience and essentially learning on the job during the prime years of Diggs and Allen.  It posed the risk of wasting that time while he learned on the job if he didn't excel early...and he didn't excel ever.

 

He was terrible at use of personnel, play design, scheming guys open, utilizing his RB's as runners and receivers, creating motion with purpose, etc.  The offensive numbers were misleading...the play to play, drive to drive, game to game consistency, efficiency and smoothness were all lacking.  Allen, Diggs, and company can mask and overcome the OC deficiencies enough to still put up season end stats, but the offense had issues the entire Dorsey tenure.

 

Quite honestly, even though its a small sample size, the offense is even better than it was under Daboll even.  Daboll had his own issues (allergic to running the ball for starters) and often would just call the dumbest plays in key moments as if he was trying to be the star of that moment with something tricky rather than smart.  

 

If things continue, not only do I think Brady will remain as OC and could end up being the best one Josh has had so far.  And I would think he would be a prime candidate to replace McD if there was a change made this year or next?

You make an excellent point about utilizing personnel under Dorsey - especially the RB’s.  The best example of this is Nyhiem Hines.  He was a dynamic third down back in Indy but completely non-existent in Buffalo.  

 

[Cash]

12 hours ago, JohnNord said:

I think 14 points to a decent but undermanned Giants should have been a wake up call.  
 

Still at this point, the Bills were 4-2 and two weeks off an impressive dismantling Miami, Las Vegas and Washington averaging 41 points.  
 

The Jacksonville game was ugly but weird stuff happens in international games.  Last year the Bills won 14 games.  They were 4-2 after the suspect Giants victory.  I think Dorsey deserved more time to turn it around. 

Spot on. With the benefit of hindsight, the Giants game looks like the true red flag. And maybe if we’d lost that game, McDermott would’ve pulled the trigger sooner. But as you point out, we were 4-2 after the win, and the Dolphins game wasn’t too far in the rear view mirror at the time. (And to Dorsey’s credit, our offense legit looked great in that Dolphins game.) It would’ve looked crazy to fire our OC at that point. 

 

 

[FireChans]

12 hours ago, JohnNord said:

If you go by PFF grades, Tyrell Dodson is the 3rd best linebacker in the NFL.   PFF are subjective and do shoddy job arguing the narrative you are trying to spin. 
 

No one is denying the Bills defense was terrible against Cincinnati or that it wasn’t a problem in the losses this season.  It clearly was an it’s been talked about to death.  

 

But look at the points scored by the offense in each of the games you claim the offense

“graded out” higher.

 

10

16

20

25

18

22

 

An average of 18.5 per loss.   But apparently because the PFF score was higher for the offense, it means that defense was the problem.

 

Also, another fact to destroy your narrative.  The defense lost 1 All Pro player (Milano, 1 player playing at an All Pro level (Jones) and one former All Pro player coming into this own (White) for the season.   Obviously losing a player at every level defense for the entire year is going to hurt.  
 

The offense meanwhile has been relatively healthy all season long.   What’s the excuse there?

 

Bottom line is that the right call was to move from Dorsey.  If he hadn’t been fired, the Bills would be in a much worse position.  For weeks we kept waiting for the offense to “get right.”  It didn’t happen until we hired a new OC.  

 

I think 14 points to a decent but undermanned Giants should have been a wake up call.  
 

Still at this point, the Bills were 4-2 and two weeks off an impressive dismantling Miami, Las Vegas and Washington averaging 41 points.  
 

The Jacksonville game was ugly but weird stuff happens in international games.  Last year the Bills won 14 games.  They were 4-2 after the suspect Giants victory.  I think Dorsey deserved more time to turn it around. 

Hey now, it was an ELITE 10 point performance by the offense. No reason the defense should’ve allowed more than 10.

[CincyBillsFan]

13 hours ago, JohnNord said:

What “evidence?”  There’s past of what you said that I can agree with but most of what you wrote is opinion and conjecture disguised as “overwhelming” evidence.     
 

If read the reporting from people like Tim Graham and everyone else in the Buffalo beat. Allen was very close with Dorsey and supported him as OC.  It was reported that Dorsey was his “first choice” verbatim.  In fact, when Dorsey was fired, Graham referred to the move as proverbially grabbing Allen by the facemask and telling him to get his ***** together.  
 

I’ve always disagreed with the notion that Dorsey was just a puppet to McDermott.  If you read and believe the Ty Dunne article, McDermott had little involvement with the offense and spent most of his time on defense.  I’m sure he did emphasize protecting Josh more in the offense but I don’t think he was as involved as you do.  
 

I feel Dorsey’s offense was his attempt to evolve Josh into high percentage pocket passer to beat Cover 2 shell and then to take the deep shots when opportunities presented themselves.  Josh did fine.  Dorsey just wasn’t very good at play calling.

 

Here is the question - if McDermott and Beane were so hell bent on Josh not running in Dorsey’s offense, why would they just abandon it when Brady took over?  

I agree that Allen & Dorey were close and that Allen supported Dorsey being hired as OC.  But IMO that is a long way from Allen demanding that Dorsey be hired.  I believe that for a number of reasons this was Beans & McD's preferred option and decision

 

The obvious things that I have seen are Allen's emotions under Dorsey and after Dorsey was fired.  They have significantly changed as has his style of play.

 

I read the transcript of the McD NFL channel interview and it was clear that McD was setting the strategic direction of the Bills offense and how Allen was expected to play going forward.  In order for Bean to properly manage the Bills CAP (pushing Allen's money out) he would have been very supportive of this idea as he will increasingly depend on Allen having a long career (> 10 years) playing at an elite level.  

 

Again, I don't think McD was calling plays or sweating the details of each offensive game plan but by all accounts he was setting the strategic goals for the offense and those included curbing certain aspects of how Allen played the game. Dorsey was trying to execute against McD's strategic vision of how the Bills should play offense and handle Allen.

 

My guess is that McD/Bean abandoned their restrictions on Allen running and other aspects of their offensive operation in the face of not making the playoffs and keeping their jobs.  Perhaps Pegula played a role here? But even if their jobs were safe I credit McD & Bean to be astute enough to be flexible when it was obvious their goal for Allen & the Offense wasn't working.

 

 

 

 

[ToGoGo]

16 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I agree that Allen & Dorey were close and that Allen supported Dorsey being hired as OC.  But IMO that is a long way from Allen demanding that Dorsey be hired.  I believe that for a number of reasons this was Beans & McD's preferred option and decision

 

The obvious things that I have seen are Allen's emotions under Dorsey and after Dorsey was fired.  They have significantly changed as has his style of play.

 

I read the transcript of the McD NFL channel interview and it was clear that McD was setting the strategic direction of the Bills offense and how Allen was expected to play going forward.  In order for Bean to properly manage the Bills CAP (pushing Allen's money out) he would have been very supportive of this idea as he will increasingly depend on Allen having a long career (> 10 years) playing at an elite level.  

 

Again, I don't think McD was calling plays or sweating the details of each offensive game plan but by all accounts he was setting the strategic goals for the offense and those included curbing certain aspects of how Allen played the game. Dorsey was trying to execute against McD's strategic vision of how the Bills should play offense and handle Allen.

 

My guess is that McD/Bean abandoned their restrictions on Allen running and other aspects of their offensive operation in the face of not making the playoffs and keeping their jobs.  Perhaps Pegula played a role here? But even if their jobs were safe I credit McD & Bean to be astute enough to be flexible when it was obvious their goal for Allen & the Offense wasn't working.

 

 

 

 

What are your thoughts on the strategic vision remaining the same, except we now have a much more competent OC? 

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

What are your thoughts on the strategic vision remaining the same, except we now have a much more competent OC? 

Josh is running way more. Not sure the strategic vision is that different.

 

I think @BADOLBILZ has a point that the Bills may have said, “let’s try to get through 10-12 weeks without making Josh run as much” regardless of OC. 

[Dopey]

On 11/19/2023 at 2:12 PM, Mister Defense said:

Last year it quickly became conventional wisdom by many in the media, locally and nationally, that the Bills were simply emotionally and physically spent, and that is why they were dominated by the Bengals in Buffalo, at High Mark Stadium. The story went something like this: the tragedy in Buffalo, the loss of Knox’s brother, the snow storms, and the Hamlin incident all were too much for the Bills, and that is why the Bengals handled them so easily, the reason the Bills were not even in the game.  ‘They look exhausted’, we heard during and after the game. That take became the CW across the country, although I don’t think the Bills thought that was the reason.

 

But I and others didn’t think that was the reason in any way for the Bills performance. That is not because of a lack of empathy, but I thought this was a tough, resilient team, Buffalo Strong, and that if anything, the surprisingly quick recovery of Hamlin was like the weight of the world being lifted off the team’s, and Buffalo’s, shoulders.

 

The problem was that they had an incompetent offensive coordinator, who the league was slowly coming to terms with as the season progressed.  We saw with our own eyes, if we were paying attention, that he was extremely poor at even the most fundamental of OC duties:

 

o   Did not seem to have game plan specific plans prepared for the game that would help to facilitate things against defenses….

o   He did know how to make in game changes to overcome what the defense was doing, seemed to have no  plan for those things…

o   Did not utilize the running game well, using it arbitrarily, with almost no connection to the passing game. As  Gregg Cosell said several times last year: “There is no synchronicity between the Bills' running and passing game”.  This in itself, to me, was a reason Dorsey could not be permitted to return for this season...

o   Did not call plays that made sense, repeatedly, and often was clueless as to what a good rhythm in play calling meant

o   He did not use his personnel effectively, not getting the most out of the players on the offense.

o   And awful use of formations to facilitate things for the offense,  with extremely limited use of motion, and with so little use of Allen under center and play action, despite the fact that the Bills excelled when using those three things…

 

Etcetera--but those are only some of the big, obvious things. Imagine how Dorsey dealt with the equally important smaller details that make an offense work. I cannot imagine how bad those details were if he had no clue related to the big, obvious problems even laymen like us saw.

 

Even one of those defects means that there would be significant obstacles placed in front of the offense—rather than facilitating things, Dorsey was doing the opposite, placing big obstacles in front of his talented players.  But add up all of the obstacles and they became insurmountable. That is what happened this year, clearly.  And the fish then rotted from the head, as the players tried to overcome their grossly incompetent OC.

 

This year, as the offense became Dorsey's alone, and the heavy lift from last year became their identity, of course the play of the players, even of the best Bills, was going to decline. They were operating in a fundamentally flawed offense, one that could often not even move the ball, and one that caused them to fall behind in game after game. Players, already going into the game with Dorsey's huge obstacles in front of them, now were faced with coming back against teams, teams that seemed to know the Bills extremely limited repertoire of plays by heart, causing the Bills to look sloppy, inept, turn the ball over, and causing them to lose their confidence.

 

Our tough, resilient team was not exhausted in the playoff game, and not against the Jaguars this year because of jet lag…. they were UNPREPARED to play well, let alone win-- shocked, defeated before they even walked on the field, as defenses, especially the good ones, like the Bengals, had come to terms with how fundamentally flawed this offense was.  And this year it had become common place, with an offense Dan Orlosvky said was “outrageously predictable” and “the easiest offense in the NFL to defend”.  Our recently great, feared offense now the easiest to defend in the NFL? THAT is why the Bills looked so shocked and confused in that playoff game--and we then saw those same faces this year, over and over and over. This is why Michael Robinson bravely called for a change in the OC position before the Bills' Thursday night game, one of the few to dare speak the truth on national television.

 

Good head coaches and defensive coordinators have been like fat kids in a free candy store, drooling and licking their chops, at how easy this very poorly coached offense would be to stop now, despite several elite players and a history of them dominating defenses. This became clearer and clearer.

 

What happened the next time we saw the starters on the field in the preseason, how did they do?  No points(?)  scored in the entire half of that preseason game. This was yet another canary in the coal mine for all of us understanding how fundamentally poor Dorsey was at his job. Even in a preseason game his players were unprepared, could not get first downs, could not score.  (I kept thinking--what will happen when they play good defenses in the NFL this year--or even mediocre ones?) And the look on the players' faces?--shocked again, and with no answers. Just like they looked against the Bengals in their previous game.

 

The CW at the time? Just a preseason game, meaningless, as this is going to be a great offense, a “wrecking crew”, as Steve Tasker called them. And then, of course, this was what we would see this season, as that became their identity.

 

So let's not accept any longer that CW from last January or now from so many on the Dorsey firing.  The new CW?  Dorsey was a scapegoat, a fall guy, that Allen is to blame, or the other players, and Dorsey should not have been fired, especially in the middle of the season. That this cannot be done now, is almost never the answer, is going to make the Bills worse...  

 

But the CW is wrong again, of course.  The Bills were likely not going to beat any of the good teams they are yet to play this year with Dorsey in charge, as they were the worst coached offense in the NFL, turning our once great offense into a crap heap.  The only hope to save the season was to get Dorsey out of there.

 

Now, hopefully there is time for the Bills to show who they really are.  It may be hard to rebound quickly from the mess Dorsey alone created, but I think they will, and prove the latest CW wrong--and last year's too.   No dominant teams in the AFC this year, and now we may be able to see what the Josh Allen led Bills are really made of...again.

 

 
 

 

I’m glad we’re playing better, but for those of you who are looking to excuse away player accountability, here you go. The players had something to do with this. Including Josh in the Cincy playoff loss. His head wasn’t in the game. Worried about a baby mama, crazy ex, and dating a celebrity. Dorsey wasn’t the issue. We were 2nd in scoring last year. In the entire league. We’re on the outside looking in for the playoffs because Josh gave the Jets the season opener. We even got rid of Aaron Rodgers in that game and Josh screwed it up. Player accountability is important. 

[BADOLBILZ]

12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Josh is running way more. Not sure the strategic vision is that different.

 

I think @BADOLBILZ has a point that the Bills may have said, “let’s try to get through 10-12 weeks without making Josh run as much” regardless of OC. 

 

 

Memories are incredibly short with football fans.    Josh not running was the biggest complaint all season.   Fans expected Dorsey's offense to be productive and consistent anyway.    Joe Brady takes over with a clear directive to cut Josh loose as a runner and the narrative is that Joe Brady is some kind of revelation as the OC.   I think he's fine and being his second job as an NFL play caller I think that experience and then time to step back and re-evaluate maybe gives him a little edge over Dorsey when working against veteran DC's........though Spagnolo got in his pants in that second half in KC.    But that experience matters.   First year OC's never win a SB so it's no surprise Dorsey got Anarumo'ed in the playoffs after being on a 9 game heater.      

[GoBills808]

25 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Memories are incredibly short with football fans.    Josh not running was the biggest complaint all season.   Fans expected Dorsey's offense to be productive and consistent anyway.    Joe Brady takes over with a clear directive to cut Josh loose as a runner and the narrative is that Joe Brady is some kind of revelation as the OC.   I think he's fine and being his second job as an NFL play caller I think that experience and then time to step back and re-evaluate maybe gives him a little edge over Dorsey when working against veteran DC's........though Spagnolo got in his pants in that second half in KC.    But that experience matters.   First year OC's never win a SB so it's no surprise Dorsey got Anarumo'ed in the playoffs after being on a 9 game heater.      

One of the reasons I liked Dorsey was that he prioritized not running Allen

[JohnNord]

13 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I agree that Allen & Dorey were close and that Allen supported Dorsey being hired as OC.  But IMO that is a long way from Allen demanding that Dorsey be hired.  I believe that for a number of reasons this was Beans & McD's preferred option and decision

 

The obvious things that I have seen are Allen's emotions under Dorsey and after Dorsey was fired.  They have significantly changed as has his style of play.

 

I read the transcript of the McD NFL channel interview and it was clear that McD was setting the strategic direction of the Bills offense and how Allen was expected to play going forward.  In order for Bean to properly manage the Bills CAP (pushing Allen's money out) he would have been very supportive of this idea as he will increasingly depend on Allen having a long career (> 10 years) playing at an elite level.  

 

Again, I don't think McD was calling plays or sweating the details of each offensive game plan but by all accounts he was setting the strategic goals for the offense and those included curbing certain aspects of how Allen played the game. Dorsey was trying to execute against McD's strategic vision of how the Bills should play offense and handle Allen.

 

My guess is that McD/Bean abandoned their restrictions on Allen running and other aspects of their offensive operation in the face of not making the playoffs and keeping their jobs.  Perhaps Pegula played a role here? But even if their jobs were safe I credit McD & Bean to be astute enough to be flexible when it was obvious their goal for Allen & the Offense wasn't working.

 

 

 

 

There may be some truth to this, but I just don’t see any way how McDermott suddenly says “ok forget it, we’ll let Josh run” after firing Dorsey.  
 

If this was of his strategy you’d think he’d double down after firing Dorsey.
 

we’ll probably never know either way, but in my opinion that theory doesn’t make sense 

55 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

What are your thoughts on the strategic vision remaining the same, except we now have a much more competent OC? 

I think there’s a lot of truth to this.  

32 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Memories are incredibly short with football fans.    Josh not running was the biggest complaint all season.   Fans expected Dorsey's offense to be productive and consistent anyway.    Joe Brady takes over with a clear directive to cut Josh loose as a runner and the narrative is that Joe Brady is some kind of revelation as the OC.   I think he's fine and being his second job as an NFL play caller I think that experience and then time to step back and re-evaluate maybe gives him a little edge over Dorsey when working against veteran DC's........though Spagnolo got in his pants in that second half in KC.    But that experience matters.   First year OC's never win a SB so it's no surprise Dorsey got Anarumo'ed in the playoffs after being on a 9 game heater.      

But Brady didn’t really “cut Josh loose as a runner.”  The difference between Dorsey and Brady have been 2-3 rushing attempts per game.  It’s not that drastic.

 

I’d agree that the difference is the play calls.