Joe Marino says all-22 Review shows Josh deserves a lot of blame for Pats Loss

[mannc]

3 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The front office isn't doing Josh any favors either.  Kincaid is a great add, but the other receivers brought in aren't an upgrade.  Watching MNF last night I'm left wondering and somewhat depressed how the Vikings (and some other teams) come up with so many great receivers, adding this kid Jordan Addison through the draft this year which all make slightly above average Kirk Cousins look the part of a franchise QB.  I'm left to imagine just how good the Bills offense would look with a couple of these receivers. 

Four WRs (including Addison and Flowers) came off the board shortly before the Bills’ pick.  Not Beane’s fault.  He did the right thing by getting Kincaid.

[78thealltimegreat]

4 minutes ago, mannc said:

Of course not.  

Wrong

Have you ever listened to the man? Dudes hatred is an absolute joke 

Edited October 24, 2023 by 78thealltimegreat

[mannc]

Just now, 78thealltimegreat said:

Have you ever listened to the man? Dudes hatred is an absolute joke 

You are completely clueless.  Marino is a huge Josh Allen fan.

[2003Contenders]

If you told me ahead of time that Josh would complete 65% of his passes against the Pats, toss 2 TD passes and rush for another, convert on a 2-point conversion, and have only one turnover, I would have expected that the Bills would have beaten the Patriots going away. The play of the admittedly depleted defense -- coupled with (and give them credit where it is due) Mac Jones and the Patriots offense playing out of their minds -- is what cost the Bills the game.

 

That said...

 

There are certainly things that Josh can do better. Three games in a row now opposing defenses have done a good job of making him uncomfortable, which has resulted in some timing/poor decision issues. Dorsey needs to design and call more plays that help to get the ball out of his hand quickly. And Josh needs to deliver on those plays rather than look for the kill shot every time. Like the old saying goes, "You will never go broke if you make a profit every time". 

 

The bad news is that the defense is likely going to be a season-long problem as (barring a significant trade) I don't see reinforcements on their way. So it is going to be important for Josh and the offense to score. Hopefully, the performance by the offense in the 2nd half against the Pats will help to ignite them. If nothing else, maybe he has some faith in Kincaid now as another reliable, chain-moving weapon.

[Einstein]

56 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nobody tells their Quarterback to read the defense less so that the coaches can do more of it. Nobody. That is a nonsense narrative.

 

You clearly didn’t read what I wrote. In the very first sentence of my reply I wrote that it may have happened “incidentally”. Meaning, not on purpose. I went on to hypothesize how it could have happened, not due to an outright motive to tell him to read defenses less, but as a consequence of the mechanism of a string of decisions that naturally led to it.

[BillsVet]

3 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Sunday, after they scored the go-ahead TD.

 

Fire is not the issue.  It’s putting in the work to be great.

 

Starting to see this across professional sports with later Millennials and Zoomers.  Or maybe that's me being an elitist Gen X'er.   

[78thealltimegreat]

3 minutes ago, mannc said:

You are completely clueless.  Marino is a huge Josh Allen fan.

He freaking hates him 

[BananaB]

10 minutes ago, mannc said:

Four WRs (including Addison and Flowers) came off the board shortly before the Bills’ pick.  Not Beane’s fault.  He did the right thing by getting Kincaid.

He did give Harty 10 million after about 40 career catches. He thought Sherfield was a player despite bouncing around the league for 4 years. Before that he put all his faith in Davis and McKenzie. Then doubled down on Davis giving us the excuses about his injury. Beane deserves plenty of blame

Edited October 24, 2023 by BananaB

[SWATeam]

5 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

It’s easier to create but how often does that hypothetical team play in the Super Bowl? Maybe you can count the eagles nick foles Super Bowl as that although that was kind of forced due to an injury they were still paying another qb. 
 

Great pass blocking has felt like the constant for me in very successful teams.  Cincy is up and down based on how those guys are playing up front as are we.  Kc is always near the leagues best in pass blocking,  Detroit has been near the leagues best since they went on their tear midseason last year, philly is near the leagues best, baltimores offensive line is playing well this season.  
 

not to say josh is blameless by any means  but qbs start to spiral/lose confidence when they are frequently under pressure and they start second guessing everything which causes the mistakes to pile up.  
 

I think we made a solid attempt at building our roster by the appropriate model  it just hasn’t worked out so far…a sure thing wr, sure handed slot ‘receiver’ that can move the chains,  solid investments in the offensive line, qb that can elevate a few role players, defense that has a few game changers that can get the big stops in the playoffs. things have been going sideways the last few weeks though. 
 

morse looks washed which is causing immense pressure on the interior.

defense lost literally all its gamechanging players.  Qb is overwhelmed and losing confidence.  There’s a lot of things that are causing bad play to snowball right now and nobody trusts the other units to bail them out

 

We certainly have had bad injury luck.  I think we would be fielding an eilte D with a healthy Tre, Milano, Jones, Von...

 

How would the Chiefs build be looking right now if they were missing Chris Jones, Nick Bolton, McDuffie, and Karlaftis all for the year?

 

While not elite I do think our Oline is much improved.  Josh is often his own worse enemy in that regard with his time to throw- it's always among the longest in the league.

 

[Mango]

We have a 250 lbs + QB, who’s made a name for himself by running headfirst and full speed into defenders. Who is now managing his third injury to his throwing arm in 3 years. 

The staff, who can also be upgraded, is also in a lose-lose situation. They run him into the ground like Cam and we’re all clamoring they ruined him. They try and protect him from ruining himself and they’ve neutered him.

 

I am of the opinion that when you have your guy as the leader of a multi billion dollar organization you have to protect that asset.  Doing anything else is wildly irresponsible to both the man and the franchise. At some point being unable to hone in on being a better passer/decision falls on the player. 
 

There’s certainly some grey area here but in real life you can’t go give a guy $250M and then to YOLO.

 

A new coordinator and or coach might help Allen. But Allen also has to help Allen. 

[CincyBillsFan]

3 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

most of the people suggesting he be traded are just having a childish contrarian tantrum because it was objectively observed he hasn’t been playing well lately…. And they can’t bring themselves to accept it. 

Not true.  If I believed as you do that Allen has played poorly the last few games and then proceeded to call out problems like:  he can't read defenses; he's not accurate; he doesn't put the work in; he refuses to take the easy first downs; etc.; etc.; etc, then the obvious action would be to consider unloading Allen while his value is still sky high. 

 

The simple fact is that cumulatively the things that you and others are throwing out are not fixable.  Judas Priest if you believe Allen has all these flaws in his game do you really think he can improve them at this point in his career? So logically trading Allen would have to be at the top of your list.

 

Fortunately for the Bills I don't believe the stuff you guys are throwing out there are MAJOR problems.  Sure Allen has to sharpen his game in places.  You'll get no argument from me here.  And yes Allen needs to be more consistent game to game. But when you look at the whole situation with the Bills those are relatively minor problems that can be corrected.

 

The fact remains that with a clearly inferior O line; a group of skill players who are mediocre at best while at the same time the Bills are trying to change the basic scheme of their offense, Allen has managed to remain a top 5 QB.  And if you don't trust me check out the stats.

 

In the end we lost to NE because our banged up defense allowed Mac Jones and the anemic Patriot offense to march 75 yards in the last 2 minutes to score the winning TD.

 

 

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

9 minutes ago, mannc said:

You are completely clueless.  Marino is a huge Josh Allen fan.

Yeah, I've never heard him dog Josh.

 

Ever.

 

[MJS]

I guess that needs to be the next evolution of Josh Allen. He needs to be better before the snap. He needs to recognize pressure, audible out of plays, identify blitzers, and make sure the line is protecting right.

 

If he does that, 90% of the problems go away. He just isn't where he needs to be with pre-snap adjustments and defensive coordinators are feasting on that now.

 

Even a lot of the post-snap issues mentioned come down to pre-snap identification, like "I'll throw to my hot route if that player blitzes." That might appear to be a post-snap decision, but he needs to mentally prepare for that pre-snap.

[CincyBillsFan]

Sal makes a good point here:

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

9 minutes ago, mannc said:

Four WRs (including Addison and Flowers) came off the board shortly before the Bills’ pick.  Not Beane’s fault.  He did the right thing by getting Kincaid.

No disagreement on Kincaid,  And I liked the Torrence pick in the 2nd.  But the WR2 is a weak spot and desperately needs an upgrade.  Add in Diggs is over 30 and on the back 9 of his career and it becomes critical.  Marvin Harrison Jr would look great in a Bills uniform but I dream.

[MJS]

22 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Josh Allen simply cannot have a “good” game to Joe you should listen to some of his previous analysis even after wins. 

Seems you are ignorant. Marino calls them like he sees them. But he is a huge Bills fan and huge supporter of Josh Allen.

[mannc]

6 minutes ago, BananaB said:

He did give Harty 10 million after about 40 career catches. He thought Sherfield was a player despite bouncing around the league for 4 years. Before that he put all his faith in Davis and McKenzie. Then doubled down on Davis giving us the excuses about his injury. Beane deserves plenty of blame

I was only talking about last year’s draft

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

Sal makes a good point here:

 

 

 

I mean, sure. That happened, it's undebatable.

 

HOWEVER, only one of those teams lost to the Patriots. As bad as the Vikings have been, they've at least got a functional offense. And the Eagles? Well, they're no slouch.

 

[mannc]

3 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Yeah, I've never heard him dog Josh.

 

Ever.

 

I swear, some people live in an alternate universe…

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

We certainly have had bad injury luck.  I think we would be fielding an eilte D with a healthy Tre, Milano, Jones, Von...

 

How would the Chiefs build be looking right now if they were missing Chris Jones, Nick Bolton, McDuffie, and Karlaftis all for the year?

 

While not elite I do think our Oline is much improved.  Josh is often his own worse enemy in that regard with his time to throw- it's always among the longest in the league.

 

It’s def much improved from a physical skill perspective but they are getting outschemed badly the last few weeks it seems

 

i think that time to throw comes with a huge asterisk…there’s def times he holds it too long for sure or misses a hot read but there’s also many times that instant pressure forces him to run around like a lunatic for 5 seconds.  If we had an average qb back there the time to throw numbers would be much worse and the sacks would be much higher 

[Success]

5 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

We certainly have had bad injury luck.  I think we would be fielding an eilte D with a healthy Tre, Milano, Jones, Von...

 

How would the Chiefs build be looking right now if they were missing Chris Jones, Nick Bolton, McDuffie, and Karlaftis all for the year?

 

While not elite I do think our Oline is much improved.  Josh is often his own worse enemy in that regard with his time to throw- it's always among the longest in the league.

 

 

Our D was elite before the injuries. I was thrilled w/ their play before London.  They were stifling, and the front was all over the opposing QB.  

 

It was a stark contrast to the Pats game, where we simply couldn't get to Jones against a line that has been one of the league's worst.

 

The injuries have been brutal for the D, and our chances.  Some fans are faulting Beane & roster construction, but we'd obviously be much better off if we weren't one of the most injured teams in the league. I think I saw that we are ranked 1st in terms of cap space lost to injury.

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Sal makes a good point here:

 

 

Offenses are getting massacred by defensive lines this year it seems like…even with the nfl turning a blind eye to pretty obvious holds

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

No disagreement on Kincaid,  And I liked the Torrence pick in the 2nd.  But the WR2 is a weak spot and desperately needs an upgrade.  Add in Diggs is over 30 and on the back 9 of his career and it becomes critical.  Marvin Harrison Jr would look great in a Bills uniform but I dream.

I think WR2 can ideally be added later in the draft. Not many teams have two first round picks at WR, although that’s starting to change, as teams recognize the importance of the position.  

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, MJS said:

I guess that needs to be the next evolution of Josh Allen. He needs to be better before the snap. He needs to recognize pressure, audible out of plays, identify blitzers, and make sure the line is protecting right.

 

If he does that, 90% of the problems go away. He just isn't where he needs to be with pre-snap adjustments and defensive coordinators are feasting on that now.

 

Even a lot of the post-snap issues mentioned come down to pre-snap identification, like "I'll throw to my hot route if that player blitzes." That might appear to be a post-snap decision, but he needs to mentally prepare for that pre-snap.

Say this really is a significant problem for the Bills offense and I believe it is not, how is Allen fixing these things going to improve the O line?  Seems to me that you can trace the offensive issues to a rapid decline in the O line's performance over the last 3 games then what Allen is or isn't doing.

 

When the O line struggles even the elite QB's/offenses look disjointed and the QB's appear to have regressed in everything they do.  Mahomes against TB in the Super Bowl; Burrow in a couple of games when he was sacked a bunch of times and just the other night with Tua/Miami missing multiple starters on their O line resulting in only 10 offensive points.

 

 

[SWATeam]

1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

It’s def much improved from a physical skill perspective but they are getting outschemed badly the last few weeks it seems

 

i think that time to throw comes with a huge asterisk…there’s def times he holds it too long for sure or misses a hot read but there’s also many times that instant pressure forces him to run around like a lunatic for 5 seconds.  If we had an average qb back there the time to throw numbers would be much worse and the sacks would be much higher 

I agree to some extent.  But I think this last game provides a good example of the issue.  That last pats drive Epenesa came screaming free off the edge and it looked like it was going to be a game ending strip sack.  But Mac hit his back foot and the ball was out.  Josh doesn't do that enough, he looks for the first reason to escape, spin around, and go off script.  And then we all complain about the line.  Nothing is easy or on schedule.  Like many have been saying forever, just take the layup.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Our D was elite before the injuries. I was thrilled w/ their play before London.  They were stifling, and the front was all over the opposing QB.  

 

It was a stark contrast to the Pats game, where we simply couldn't get to Jones against a line that has been one of the league's worst.

 

The injuries have been brutal for the D, and our chances.  Some fans are faulting Beane & roster construction, but we'd obviously be much better off if we weren't one of the most injured teams in the league. I think I saw that we are ranked 1st in terms of cap space lost to injury.

 

It’s not even the amount of injuries I feel like we’re on par with other teams there, it’s that the injuries just found the most important players on defense lol idk if we could’ve picked more impactful players for them to happen to on defense if we tried 

[CincyBillsFan]

7 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

I mean, sure. That happened, it's undebatable.

 

HOWEVER, only one of those teams lost to the Patriots. As bad as the Vikings have been, they've at least got a functional offense. And the Eagles? Well, they're no slouch.

 

Are the Pats really that much worse then the Vikings minus Jefferson? 

 

And part of Sal's pint was that in all 3 games you could argue that Allen & the Bills offense played the best. Now, setting aside the QB,  let's line up the rest of each offensive unit and see who has the best talent.

[MJS]

2 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Say this really is a significant problem for the Bills offense and I believe it is not, how is Allen fixing these things going to improve the O line?  Seems to me that you can trace the offensive issues to a rapid decline in the O line's performance over the last 3 games then what Allen is or isn't doing.

 

When the O line struggles even the elite QB's/offenses look disjointed and the QB's appear to have regressed in everything they do.  Mahomes against TB in the Super Bowl; Burrow in a couple of games when he was sacked a bunch of times and just the other night with Tua/Miami missing multiple starters on their O line resulting in only 10 offensive points.

You help them by getting the ball out fast, which is something Allen has never been good at. You help them by throwing to your hot routes. You help them by ensuring their blocking assignments are right. All those things help a ton.

 

But the line has been largely decent this year, outside of the Pats game. I disagree that they were bad in the two games previous.

[HOUSE]

Yeah yeah, the Pope deserves some blame to and he wasn't even in town

 

[CincyBillsFan]

Just now, MJS said:

You help them by getting the ball out fast, which is something Allen has never been good at. You help them by throwing to your hot routes. You help them by ensuring their blocking assignments are right. All those things help a ton.

 

But the line has been largely decent this year, outside of the Pats game. I disagree that they were bad in the two games previous.

So who are the good outlet receivers who are reading the blitz and getting where they're supposed to be fast? Cook? Knox? Shakir? Harty?  I don't see anyone like Beasley out there do you?

 

And while you can argue the accuracy of PFF player rankings take a look at their assessment of the Bills O linemen so far this season.  It ain't pretty.

 

 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

I agree to some extent.  But I think this last game provides a good example of the issue.  That last pats drive Epenesa came screaming free off the edge and it looked like it was going to be a game ending strip sack.  But Mac hit his back foot and the ball was out.  Josh doesn't do that enough, he looks for the first reason to escape, spin around, and go off script.  And then we all complain about the line.  Nothing is easy or on schedule.  Like many have been saying forever, just take the layup.

It’s definitely a little of both so I don’t disagree with that either.  Instant pressure up the middle without even having to blitz seems pretty frequent now and you’ve got 3 linemen in your lap and no throwing lanes

 

I think edge pressure is a little easier to deal with because it isn’t really obscuring your vision or messing up throwing lanes  

 

he absolutely passes up plays he should take and the oline has been bad though both are certainly true.  If morse turns it around I think it’s gonna clean up a lot…feels like he’s getting tossed around the last few weeks 

[MJS]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

So who are the good outlet receivers who are reading the blitz and getting where they're supposed to be fast? Cook? Knox? Shakir? Harty?  I don't see anyone like Beasley out there do you?

 

And while you can argue the accuracy of PFF player rankings take a look at their assessment of the Bills O linemen so far this season.  It ain't pretty.

 

You don't have to be good. You have to be open. They are. Allen is turning down the hot routes and dump offs when they are open and available.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Have they coached him to regress in his reading of defenses pre-snap? Because that is the bit that is most concerning to me dating back to last year. It looks like Josh's processing only begins once he has the ball in his hands. Go back a couple of years and I really thought he was becoming an elite processer. That is where a lot of these issues stem from. He isn't understanding what the defense is doing pre-snap well enough. The reason he isn't always getting to the open man post snap is because at the point the ball is snapped he doesn't already have an idea where the open man might be. The reason we keep running our backs into overloads is because he isn't processing well enough at the line. I'm not so worried about the physical. Okay he threw a bad pick, he missed a couple of throws... that can happen. I'm worried about the mental. And I don't know that Dorsey (or any OC frankly) can simplify the offense any more than it was on Sunday. The plays were there and they weren't plays where you needed superman Josh to make them. 

 

So while I take the "they are coaching him not to run" point. The rest in terms of Allen's performance I'm not sure is on coaching. It's on Josh. 

If you had to take a stab at correcting the pre snap processing regression (if Allen showed before that he’s certainly capable of doing this well) then is this a preparation/film study issue? Or have the DC’s in the league and BB in particular, done a better job of disguising how they want to attack our O? 

[Coach Tuesday]

It’s really this simple:

 

Either you need playmakers with YAC ability, OR you need to let Allen run, OR you need Allen to win before the ball is snapped.

 

Right now they have none of the above.

 

They installed a quick-passing offense and upgraded their running game but they lack playmakers and Allen isn’t putting in the work to win pre-snap, and he’s heeding their directive not to scramble.

 

I blame him somewhat.  But they could’ve made life easier on him by adding actual playmakers.

 

Beane and McD are a couple of gym teachers (no offense to our Brothers in Tracksuits on this forum).  They simply fail at making and executing Big Planz.

 

1 minute ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

If you had to take a stab at correcting the pre snap processing regression (if Allen showed before that he’s certainly capable of doing this well) then is this a preparation/film study issue? Or have the DC’s in the league and BB in particular, done a better job of disguising how they want to attack our O? 

Preparation.  By now he has seen all of the different defenses.  He basically admitted that he doesn’t watch a ton of film because he’s decided that defenses play him differently than other QBs, the implication being that he can just figure it out on the fly and/or power right through whatever they’re doing.  It hasn’t worked for the past three weeks.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Coach Tuesday

[GunnerBill]

41 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

You clearly didn’t read what I wrote. In the very first sentence of my reply I wrote that it may have happened “incidentally”. Meaning, not on purpose. I went on to hypothesize how it could have happened, not due to an outright motive to tell him to read defenses less, but as a consequence of the mechanism of a string of decisions that naturally led to it.

 

Yep but I don't buy that sting of mechanisms. How do you suppose those conversations went? It is just reaching to find a narrative that supports and already formed conclusion.

[BillsFan692]

3 hours ago, SWATeam said:

No one ever says that.

 

When met with any criticism the reply is always- "i gUEss hE SUCks tHEN!!!"

It's just a dumb place to lay the blame because there is a less than 5% chance we can draft a QB who is better than josh and we rolled the dice doing that for 20 years. So instead of b!#$hing about what can't be fixed it's much better to look at where we CAN Be better and that is THE COACHING. Josh Allen is CAPABLE of some of the best QB play anyone has ever seen. All world. So we kinda know that the issue is with getting it out of him, and that is 150% on the COACHING!

[Einstein]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

It is just reaching to find a narrative

 

Well that's definitely true. It's just a guess.

 

But I think it is as good a guess as "Josh Allen just woke up one day and forgot how to read defenses".

 

This all started after Daboll left. That is a big clue in my opinion.

[dgrochester55]

Allen is having his worst year since his rookie year, but not all of it is his fault.     There is no one to throw to outside of Diggs.   Knox is having a down year(and is now hurt) and Kincaid shows flashes but is still very green.   We tried Davis at #2 and he is not only under-producing but regressing.   Sherfield and Harty have added absolutely nothing to the team and Shakir is nothing more that a backup at this time.   You could literally grab four wide receivers from practice squads and get equal or better production than our current #2-5 options.

 

Despite all of that, Allen at least did enough to give the team the lead back, it was the defense that let us down this time.

[GunnerBill]

31 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Well that's definitely true. It's just a guess.

 

But I think it is as good a guess as "Josh Allen just woke up one day and forgot how to read defenses".

 

This all started after Daboll left. That is a big clue in my opinion.

 

I don't think he just woke up and forgot how to do it. And I do think Daboll going is a factor. But getting to "and McDermott neutered him" is just confirmation bias. The @Coach Tuesday point about study is the most interesting one in my view. 

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

With all this said, I think a large part of this is on Beane. 

 

Allen feels like LeBron in Cleveland the first time around (and really the second as well) where they got him Diggs, and they simply don't have other weapons that scare you. 

 

I mean really, Emmanuel Sanders on the edge of retirement in 2021? The ghosts of Cole Beasley and John Brown brought back in 2022. Not drafting a single WR before Round 4 since 2017? 

 

Listen Beane's philosophy has been keep as much of the 2020-2022 Bills on this roster as possible. So we're paying Oliver, paying Poyer, paying Tre White, paying Milano, paying Hyde, paying Von, paying Allen, paying Dawkins, paying Morse, paying Knox and so on. 

 

Beane has done a good job with the limited space he's had to cram is as many NFL veterans as he can around these larger contracts - David Edwards, Leonard Floyd, Damien Harris, Taylor Rapp, Poona Ford. 

 

But the WRs in the draft didn't fall to the Bills, and FA was thin - so again the Bills remade their bottom 3 (Crowder, McKenzie, Kumerow) with another set of journeyman (Harty, Sherfield) and only have Shakir as a draft investment, unless you include Shorter who Beane noted was a project. 

 

There just aren't many WR playmakers on this team. And regardless of what betting odds tell you (Mike Schopp), the Bills are not the Chiefs.  

And again, it’s part that and part Josh not getting the ball to guys when open.