Simms: Gabe Davis is a good player, but he's not a number two

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, BBFL said:

Well this’ll make all the armchair GMs puff their chest. 
 

Half the board’s been saying this 😂

 

Well Simms has not been invited to be a GM so in this case he is in like company but see poll (and polls often lie) on football experience.

 

Speaking of polls I got contacted by Washington Team Football if changes made would it make me buy season tickets and if not what could they do to encourage me?

I said no not enough and the change I would want them to make would be to bring back Snyder to Management group.

I do not think I will be getting any more calls.

Evidently person got number from Director of Group Sales who contacted me about buying tickets for Bills / WTF game.

 

 

I need to start preparing for Halloween.  When I bought my foreclosed house almost 30 years ago I found a Washington Jersey used as a rag.  I cleaned it up intended to donate it to charity but never got around to it.  One Halloween I decided to hang a scarecrow dummy from a tree near driveway entrance and used jersey on it.

[PBF81]

33 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

The issue is not Davis. The issue is lack of production from the slot pass catcher whoever that is. 

Davis is a home run threat with big YPC. 

They need a true underneath threat to force the Linebackers and corners to play the short zone. That leaves Davis to carve up the safeties like he did against KC in the playoff game. 

 

To your point more generally, after six seasons of Beane and Seven of McD, they're still unsettled offensively.  

 

Honestly, I don't know how there isn't more heat on McBeane for that.  

 

 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

You’re focusing on numbers rather than his McD'sinability to separate coach the offense properly, his shaky hands questionable command of anything related to the offense, and the fact that his numbers are W-L record is mostly a product of the most talented QB in the league throwing to him because he’s (unfortunately) the second option.

 

Food for thought.  

 

It's obviously not true only for Davis.  

 

 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

You’re focusing on numbers rather than his inability to separate, his shaky hands, and the fact that his numbers are mostly a product of the most talented QB in the league throwing to him because he’s (unfortunately) the second option.

 

It's like how a lot of Bills fans thought we made a mistake letting Isaiah Hodgins go last year because he had decent production for the Giants. How's that looking now? Targets and catches have to go somewhere. The #2 passing target in one of the most high volume passing offenses in the league with an elite QB is ALWAYS going to get 800-900 yards. Pointing to Davis's pure volume numbers is a crutch for people who want to avoid talking about his actual capabilities as a player.

[SCBills]

We need another guy that gets open reliably, and quickly, outside of Diggs. 
 

Since we do not have that currently, our “WR2” being a down the field threat that does not uncover quickly, is a massive problem for consistency in the offense.  
 

Whether that’s a shot at Gabe is up to however anyone wants to perceive it. 
 

Me, personally, I’d like my WR2 to be a guy who can move the chains reliably by getting open quickly.  That feels like a skill set, in a heavy pass offense, that should be required for the guy who’s on the field for a majority of snaps. 

[oldmanfan]

29 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

It should give pause to the Beane supporters.  

 

 

 

And as if they're all identical on every team.  

 

 

Then quit using the termZ

52 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Eh? Big Baller Beane is a solid GM, an excellent communicator, and all around likeable dude. But he is NOT someone who intimidates or kicks anyone's ass (physically). 

You know this how?

[gobills404]

1 hour ago, BillsFan130 said:

But if we just look at “stats “, we also have to look deeper into the full picture 

 

How many targets he gets? And from that what’s his catch percentage? Drops? Contested catch rate? QB rating when targeting him?

 

Those numbers ^ were horrible for Gabe last year, and I’m guessing they aren’t great this year. (Maybe QB rating is ok as of this point)

Except they are great this year. I can’t find the contested catch rate but his catch percentage (70%) drop rate (6.7%) yards per catch (16.2) and passer rating when targeted (119.6) are all excellent. 60 second google search.

[Rocbillsfan1]

2 hours ago, BigDingus said:

What does "not a number 2" even mean anymore?

 

Do you really mean he's not a number 1 playing the number 2 role like Jalen Waddle, Tee Higgins, Tyler Lockett or Devonta Smith?

 

What kind of production do you want out of your WR2? The vast majority of NFL teams would be thrilled to have a WR2 that puts up 800+ yards, 7 TD's & extends the field like Gabe does.

 

Even right now, he's ranked #27 in receiving yards (automatically putting him ahead of multiple #1's), tied for 4th place in TD's with 5 others (ahead of others like Jamar Chase, Amon-Ra St. Brown, Travis Kelce, Mike Evans, and many other WR1's, TE's, and RB's), and is only 61st in receptions. 

 

I'd say he's more than adequate as a WR2, with the only issue being he's not as big a threat in the short-intermediate game as we'd like.

Just because he’s putting up some numbers because we have Josh Allen and a productive offense at times doesn’t mean he’s the 27th best wr. I wouldn’t put him in the top 50 that’s for sure.

[Maine-iac]

6, 8, or 10 years ago ................. Pats from 2014 to 2016 had one WR over 1,000 yards  and won 2 SB's.  Brady was king of the short passing game and knew how to use TE's and RB's in the passing game.  Chiefs didn't have a WR with over 1,000 yards last year ......... won the SB.  It isn't on Davis that this offense sputters sometimes.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

Chiefs have the best TE (aka a WR1) and like five WR3s. They do just fine.

[Maine-iac]

Just now, JohnBonhamRocks said:

Chiefs have the best TE (aka a WR1) and like five WR3s. They do just fine.

So why aren't people crying  about the TE's?

[78thealltimegreat]

When Gabe had his all world game against the chiefs he was literally the number 4 receiver on the depth chart behind Diggs, Beas, and Sanders.

Since Gabe has been given his opportunity as a number 2 he just isn’t that he’s more a 3rd or 4th receiver option. 

 

Until we get more consistency from Wr2 it’s going to hold this offense back. 

Chris is saying things to the national audience that we’ve discussed here for two years. 

[Franchiseneedsme]

I would.like to se Andy Isabella get a call up and some reps at WR2. He gets open 

[Freddie's Dead]

I disagree.  Gabe is number 2.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

Just now, Maine-iac said:

So why aren't people crying  about the TE's?

Some are. Mostly about Knox’s contract being way too large compared to his usage/productivity. But also about the lack of Kincaid usage: for example, just vs. the Giants Diggs had only 3 fewer targets than Kincaid has gotten all season. 

[Maine-iac]

 

5 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

Some are. Mostly about Knox’s contract being way too large compared to his usage/productivity. But also about the lack of Kincaid usage: for example, just vs. the Giants Diggs had only 3 fewer targets than Kincaid has gotten all season. 

I'm with them.  Like I've already said, I don't think we have a Davis at #2 problem.  We have a "don't use our other weapons" problem.  Beyond the TE position I've also wondered why our screen game is for the most part horrendous.  At least our run game is improved.  Now if they'd just lean on it a little more.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Maine-iac

[BADOLBILZ]

54 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

It's like how a lot of Bills fans thought we made a mistake letting Isaiah Hodgins go last year because he had decent production for the Giants. How's that looking now? Targets and catches have to go somewhere. The #2 passing target in one of the most high volume passing offenses in the league with an elite QB is ALWAYS going to get 800-900 yards. Pointing to Davis's pure volume numbers is a crutch for people who want to avoid talking about his actual capabilities as a player.

 

 

And now the people who have been defending Gabe as a #2 are reacting to his continued inconsistency by claiming that they just need a better slot receiver.  

 

Ignoring the fact that the majority of the teams that the Bills are trying to get thru to win a SB have second options that can succeed at any of the WR positions.

 

It's a process getting some of these people to "see the forest for the trees".

Edited October 19, 2023 by BADOLBILZ

[PBF81]

I'm not making a direct comment on Davis one way or the other here, but if he weren't on this team right now the offense would not be nearly as good.  

 

Whether that would befall Beane, McD, or whomever is another related discussion.  But if Davis were to get injured for the season this week, the offense would notice.  

 

 

[newcam2012]

49 minutes ago, SCBills said:

We need another guy that gets open reliably, and quickly, outside of Diggs. 
 

Since we do not have that currently, our “WR2” being a down the field threat that does not uncover quickly, is a massive problem for consistency in the offense.  
 

Whether that’s a shot at Gabe is up to however anyone wants to perceive it. 
 

Me, personally, I’d like my WR2 to be a guy who can move the chains reliably by getting open quickly.  That feels like a skill set, in a heavy pass offense, that should be required for the guy who’s on the field for a majority of snaps. 

AMEN! Very well stated.

[newcam2012]

7 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

I'm not making a direct comment on Davis one way or the other here, but if he weren't on this team right now the offense would not be nearly as good.  

 

Whether that would befall Beane, McD, or whomever is another related discussion.  But if Davis were to get injured for the season this week, the offense would notice.  

 

 

That's true because he knows the offense and has chemistry with Josh. That doesn't make him a solid WR2. The Bills should have upgraded the WR2 position. Obviously, Kincaid isn't that guy. 

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, BigDingus said:

What does "not a number 2" even mean anymore?

 

Do you really mean he's not a number 1 playing the number 2 role like Jalen Waddle, Tee Higgins, Tyler Lockett or Devonta Smith?

 

 

This is where I am at. Two number ones is the new black. 

[Maine-iac]

17 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

And now the people who have been defending Gabe as a #2 are reacting to his continued inconsistency by claiming that they just need a better slot receiver.  

 

Ignoring the fact that the majority of the teams that the Bills are trying to get thru to win a SB have second options that can succeed at any of the WR positions.

 

It's a process getting some of these people to "see the forest for the trees".

Name me the majority of the teams.  I can think of 3 teams that might have a better number 2 than Davis.  I can think of one team that did win a SB that doesn't have a single WR that is better than Davis.

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, SydneyBillsFan said:

 

 

Do we love Chris Simms again, now that he agrees with what seems like a vast majority of the people posting here?

 

He's not wrong that the passing offense has looked far too reliant on Stefon Diggs

 

On the other hand....the Bills are a whopping 5 yards off from being a top-10 rushing team (currently 12th), WITHOUT as much contribution from Josh Allen's legs at this time (and most of his contribution did come in the first 3 games)

 

Right now, Mahomes has more rush attempts and more rush yards than Allen....they are right next to the Bills for rushing yards.  I will grant that they seem to be utilizing 2nd round rookie Rashee Rice more and relying on Kelce a bit less in the passing game.  But again, similar rush yards - Mahomes more rush yards than Allen - what does Chris Simms say about the Chiefs, are they too reliant on Mahomes?

 

AJ Brown has 60 targets and 672 yds, Devonta Smith 44 targets and 344 yards, while Hurts of course has 30% of the teams rush attempts and close to 30% of their rush yards....does that mean the Eagles are too reliant on Jalen Hurts and AJ Brown?

 

(for context, Diggs 66 receptions 620 yds, Davis 30 targets 341 yds)

Edited October 19, 2023 by Beck Water

[FireChans]

26 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

And now the people who have been defending Gabe as a #2 are reacting to his continued inconsistency by claiming that they just need a better slot receiver.  

 

Ignoring the fact that the majority of the teams that the Bills are trying to get thru to win a SB have second options that can succeed at any of the WR positions.

 

It's a process getting some of these people to "see the forest for the trees".

It’s a hell of a lot easier finding a slot guy than a boundary WR better than Davis.

 

unless you’re Brandon Beane and can do neither.

[Dr.Sack]

Imagine if Gabe was a #2 he’d be dominant 8tds vs 4tds and pushing Diggs for #1 level targets. 

[Doc Brown]

14 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

That's true because he knows the offense and has chemistry with Josh. That doesn't make him a solid WR2. The Bills should have upgraded the WR2 position. Obviously, Kincaid isn't that guy. 

It should be way too early to say Kincaid isn't that guy even for the most negative posters.  They definitely should've upgraded at WR2 though which is why most of us were clamoring for Hopkins.

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

It should be way too early to say Kincaid isn't that guy even for the most negative posters.  They definitely should've upgraded at WR2 though which is why most of us were clamoring for Hopkins.

It’s almost November….

[Maine-iac]

5 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

It should be way too early to say Kincaid isn't that guy even for the most negative posters.  They definitely should've upgraded at WR2 though which is why most of us were clamoring for Hopkins.

I mean just because Davis has more catches and TD's than Hopkins is no reason to think Hopkins might not have been much of an upgrade.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Maine-iac

[Doc Brown]

Just now, FireChans said:

It’s almost November….

He's a rookie TE who's only played five games.  

[FireChans]

Just now, Doc Brown said:

He's a rookie TE who's only played five games.  

Almost like it’s a poor strategy to rely on a late first round rookie TE to significantly contribute as a starting big slot receiver on a team trying to make a deep playoff and superbowl run.

[Doc Brown]

Just now, Maine-iac said:

I mean just because Davis has more catches and TD's than Hopkins is no reason to think Hopkins might not have been much of an upgrade.

He has Ryan Tannehill throwing him the ball in an offense that thinks it's 1972.

Just now, FireChans said:

Almost like it’s a poor strategy to rely on a late first round rookie TE to significantly contribute as a starting big slot receiver on a team trying to make a deep playoff and superbowl run.

It is but to say he's never going to be that guy is extremely premature.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Doc Brown said:

He has Ryan Tannehill throwing him the ball in an offense that thinks it's 1972.

It is but to say he's never going to be that guy is extremely premature.

He ain’t gonna be that guy this year, and we are trying to win a Super Bowl this year. 
 

I am not supremely concerned that Kincaid is going to be a bust. I am supremely concerned that he was penned as the missing link and has been mostly just missing 

[Maine-iac]

Maybe we should have brought in Julio Jones  ............. hell bring back Anquan Boldin that worked out pretty well.  What we shouldn't be focused on are the positions that are not producing at all like slot or TE.  

[Doc Brown]

Just now, FireChans said:

He ain’t gonna be that guy this year, and we are trying to win a Super Bowl this year. 
 

I am not supremely concerned that Kincaid is going to be a bust. I am supremely concerned that he was penned as the missing link and has been mostly just missing 

Not with that attitude.  He'll improve and five games it too small of a sample size.  It is interesting though that their worst game offensively production wise happened to be the one he missed.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

It's like how a lot of Bills fans thought we made a mistake letting Isaiah Hodgins go last year because he had decent production for the Giants. How's that looking now? Targets and catches have to go somewhere. The #2 passing target in one of the most high volume passing offenses in the league with an elite QB is ALWAYS going to get 800-900 yards. Pointing to Davis's pure volume numbers is a crutch for people who want to avoid talking about his actual capabilities as a player.

This is all true. But what did you expect?

 

If anyone was thinking that Gabe was gonna turn into a Diggs-lite in year 4, they were crazy. 
 

But there’s still a Cole Beasley sized-hole missing on this offense. If you want to say that missing player should be WR2 in target shares, fine. I don’t disagree. 
 

But we don’t have that player. That ain’t Gabe’s fault.

2 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Not with that attitude.  He'll improve and five games it too small of a sample size.  It is interesting though that their worst game offensively production wise happened to be the one he missed.

It also rained at my house when the Bills lost in London. Must’ve been the weather. 
 

I’ll believe that Kincaid can produce and contribute at a high level this year when I see it, not before. Already got sucked into the camp hype once to watch this dude run Reggie Gilliam routes.

[Beck Water]

#2 WR has become this decade's "Franchise QB".

 

Remember when we used to have heated debates here about who was or was not a franchise QB on other teams?

 

What it usually came down to, is different people had different ideas of what "franchise QB" meant, and for a sizeable proportion it meant "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it".

 

The relevant question for anyone wishing to debate this issue is "What exactly do you mean by #2 WR? How do you define that?  What traits does this #2 guy have?"

 

After that's defined, then we can have a discussion. 

 

Fact: from 2019 to 2021, the Bills #2 receiver in targets and in yards, was Cole Beasley, a slot.

 

 

[Maine-iac]

1 minute ago, Doc Brown said:

Not with that attitude.  He'll improve and five games it too small of a sample size.  It is interesting though that their worst game offensively production wise happened to be the one he missed.

I think they are on the right track with 12 personnel and more running game.  I'm optimistic that Kincaid will look like a great pick by the end of the year and between the running game and finding the TE's and RB's more short we'll be moving the chains better.  I think they are find with Davis doing what he does and they can easily get the production they need from other places.  They're still learning how to do that.  They have to walk before they can run but I think they'll get there.

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, Franchiseneedsme said:

I would.like to se Andy Isabella get a call up and some reps at WR2. He gets open 

 

Can he do the role of Beasley?  I think with someone doing that role well I think Gabe can handle WR role.

I noticed that Gabe is often on field when Diggs is off and he seems to be doing Kumerow's role blocking.

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

#2 WR has become this decade's "Franchise QB".

 

Remember when we used to have heated debates here about who was or was not a franchise QB on other teams?

 

What it usually came down to, is different people had different ideas of what "franchise QB" meant, and for a sizeable proportion it meant "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it".

 

The relevant question for anyone wishing to debate this issue is "What exactly do you mean by #2 WR? How do you define that?  What traits does this #2 guy have?"

 

After that's defined, then we can have a discussion. 

 

Fact: from 2019 to 2021, the Bills #2 receiver in targets and in yards, was Cole Beasley, a slot.

 

 

From 2019 to 2021, Beasley was our WR2 IMO.

Edited October 19, 2023 by FireChans

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

26 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Do we love Chris Simms again, now that he agrees with what seems like a vast majority of the people posting here?

 

He's not wrong that the passing offense has looked far too reliant on Stefon Diggs

 

On the other hand....the Bills are a whopping 5 yards off from being a top-10 rushing team (currently 12th), WITHOUT as much contribution from Josh Allen's legs at this time (and most of his contribution did come in the first 3 games)

 

Right now, Mahomes has more rush attempts and more rush yards than Allen....they are right next to the Bills for rushing yards.  I will grant that they seem to be utilizing 2nd round rookie Rashee Rice more and relying on Kelce a bit less in the passing game.  But again, similar rush yards - Mahomes more rush yards than Allen - what does Chris Simms say about the Chiefs, are they too reliant on Mahomes?

 

AJ Brown has 60 targets and 672 yds, Devonta Smith 44 targets and 344 yards, while Hurts of course has 30% of the teams rush attempts and close to 30% of their rush yards....does that mean the Eagles are too reliant on Jalen Hurts and AJ Brown?

 

(for context, Diggs 66 receptions 620 yds, Davis 30 targets 341 yds)

I still don’t get ‘too reliant on diggs’ … he’s not forcing it into triple coverage all game to get him the ball…diggs is our best pass catcher and he’s pretty much always got a step on his defender and when a play breaks down he always helps out his qb..  our best receiver having what’s likely to be a career year that has been pretty much impossible to stop should be a positive.. 

 

gabe is certainly frustrating though lol