Tight End Stats Through 5 games

[quinnearlysghost88]

9 hours ago, Numark3 said:

Is it a goal to have TE production?  For the most part, the offense is humming and the TEs are a part of it.  What is the issue or your point?

 

Hey Dorsey, we want more TE production:

 

dorsey: Why?

 

idk

Jets game is a good example. Pass yards were hard to come by and our TEs only produced 25 and 26 yds on 7 total catches. They both only had one catch in the entire second half. 
 

TEs should be exposing mismatches and give the qb an outlet to throw. When they’re not getting open, you’re forcing Josh to make tough short throws against a good jets pass D. 

[JerseyBills]

1 hour ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

Jets game is a good example. Pass yards were hard to come by and our TEs only produced 25 and 26 yds on 7 total catches. They both only had one catch in the entire second half. 
 

TEs should be exposing mismatches and give the qb an outlet to throw. When they’re not getting open, you’re forcing Josh to make tough short throws against a good jets pass D. 

Ya i agree. Feel like they're still trying to find their identity with them personnel groupings.  

Confident they will

[Chaos]

Preseason Fans/ Media: sugar rush Josh has to focus on short quick passes 

 

Season.  : Allen focuses on short passes with record setting completion percentages

 

Fans : OMG yards per catch production is down

As best as I can determine there are spme

fans who anything short of 100 Percent completion rates and league leading YPA totals means “something is off”

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Chaos

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

17 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He's a career 64% catch guy on receptions/target tho

 

That's on the low end of where you'd like your TE to be

 

I do find him to be a plus blocker, and he brings a physicality that our offense needs at times.  Him, Kincaid, Murray, and Harris are really there to bring more of a physical element to our attack. The overall team softness was something that needed to be upgraded between offensive line, pass catchers, and backs.  I think he also offers some of the red zone athleticism you want in a TE but I agree I probably wouldn't build my offense around him.

[SoonerBillsFan]

21 hours ago, Simon said:

 

If they weren't spending half the game covering the RT, they would be a much more dynamic part of the offense.

As it is, the Bills are spending a significant percentage of their passing downs playing 10 vs 11.

Yes and no.  Leave Knox to help brown/ run short routes. use Kincaid as the weapon he is designed to be.

 

We can have both.  

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by SoonerBillsFan

[That's No Moon]

21 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

If anyone thinks Kincaid would be unable to do what LaPorta has done in Detroit they are mistaken. 

I think that's kind of the point. Detroit has a clue how to use their TE. We don't know how to use Knox, and then we spent a first round pick to add another TE to dump the ball to in the flat. It's tremendously terrible resource management to spend the money they spend on Knox and then the draft choice they spent in Kincaid to use them in a way that could be accomplished by much cheaper players. 

[KDIGGZ]

If you want to see how to use a TE watch the Chiefs. Good lord, Kelce is wide open every play. He walks into the middle of the field in a zone and nobody covers him. Unreal

[That's No Moon]

18 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I think when they were building in the offseason they may have counted on Spencer Brown being able to do more than he is capable of.

Then when the bullets started flying, they found themselves with little choice but to play things they way that they are now.

This is weak. Both TEs aren't helping Brown on any play and it's rare that one of them is doing more than chip. That's normal TE behavior and it doesn't preclude them from running routes more elaborate than standing still by the sideline 3 yards up field.

 

Just spitballing, if you're having trouble containing the left DE and you are often using a TE to help, a TE screen is a viable option that takes advantage of your players' athletic ability and also serves to slow down future pass rush. We don't do that. 

[PBF81]

21 hours ago, Process said:

The production isn't really the issue. Good productive TEs are hard to find. 

 

The issue is we are paying an average, low impact player in Knox $13M/yr. 

 

That money put towards a solid #2 WR or RT would have much bigger impact on this offense. 

 

Add to that, why did we expend a 1st-round pick on a player that isn't even being put in a role in which he can put up performance commensurate with that pick.

 

It's disappointing to be sure.  

 

There seems to be a huge ongoing disconnect between Beane & McD in the utilization of our drafted players.  

 

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

21 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

If anyone thinks Kincaid would be unable to do what LaPorta has done in Detroit they are mistaken. 

Sadly mistaken if I may

[PBF81]

20 hours ago, Kaenon said:

Our offense is performing the same as it has the last 4 seasons.

Idk why anyone thinks any other season will be different.

Allen to Diggs will be incredible, Gabe will flash with 800 yards and 7 TDs, 3rd and 4th guys will chip in. TEs won't amass yards and should finish with 5 or 6 TDs, and our running game by and large will struggle by committee.

 

Right now or TEs (Kinaid/Knox) are placing for about 650 yards and 3 TDs between 'em.

 

Davis should have 800/7 by the bye week, all he's gotta do is average 54 YPG and a TD every other game.  

 

Points wise or offense is performing better than it ever has.  But it's the games against the playoff tells that matter most.  

 

That's not to say it cannot be better, and it can be.  

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by PBF81

[BearNorth]

If Kincaid [concussion] is unable to play on Sunday night, do we see three wide [from among Sherfield, Harty and Shakir] and trust Brown [who is currently the #2 graded Bills lineman behind Dawkins] to anchor the right side.

[PBF81]

20 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

I’m sure Beane envisioned Kincaid being more of a weapon but it’s still early. 

 

I'm sure everyone did.  Which begs questions. 

 

There's an ongoing disconnect between Beane & McD.  

 

 

[PBF81]

20 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well when you are running 12 personnel as much as we are and then not using your TE's as weapons then its a problem.  If we are running our TE's for 7 ypc, any JAG off the street TE can manage that.  We have a ton of money in Knox and traded up for Kincaid to produce what any TE off the street could do.  Thats a problem.

 

When you are taking guys like Sherfield and Harty off the field to put 2 TE's out there and then just dumping off passes to them that you could do with any RB or TE, that is a problem.

 

We drafted...traded up mind you...Kincaid to pair with Knox to create mismatches all over the field and to take adantage of those and put pressure on the D at all 3 levels.  We aren't doing that.

 

Dorsey NEEDS to find a way to use the 12 personnel productively or he needs to stop running it.  Its that simple for me.  And I am not confident he will...he sucked at incorporating Knox in last year despite our desperate need for another weapon for Josh and Knox coming off a season with 9 TD's despite modest targets for a TE.  Now we are seeing the same lack of use of the TE's effectively this year.  

 

Its a problem and it starts with Dorsey.

 

Great post.

 

I would however argue that it starts with McD.

 

He's the one that selected Dorsey, and he apparently has nothing to assist and guide Dorsey with, ... add a head coach.  

 

If the offense is under achieving as it is, then it's up to the head coach to make the appropriate corrective action, regardless of what it is.  

 

IMO McD's simply all but incapable of doing that.

 

Considering that our playoff hopes and hopes for a Championship revolver around Allen & the O, that's a terminal disconnect.  

 

 

19 hours ago, 716 said:

All the hate for Dorsey and the lack of TE production, but I don't recall very much TE success with Daboll, or forever for that matter in Buffalo. Am I wrong?

 

All those thinking that Daboll was anything special are wrong. 

 

 

[JerseyBills]

20 hours ago, SWATeam said:

I'm getting visions of last year.  We went all-in on pass catching RB's- tried to sign McKissic, signed Duke Johnson, drafted Cook, traded for Hines.  We were even rumored to be in on trading for McCaffery.  All of this to never throw to the backs.

 

Now this year it's all about the TE.  Knox has a nice contract and we draft a first round TE to go along with him.  All this talk of 12 personnel and the mismatches it will produce.   Again, all to never throw to the TE's.

 

There seems to be a major disconnect between player acquisition and player usage-especially on offense.  You would think that Dorsey would be communicating with Beane on the groceries to buy.

I mean Beane trusted his board, was shocked we had a chance to get an offensive weapon of his caliber so late. 

 

Lets see how this plays out. He's a rookie 5 games in. Give it another month and I think Knox Kincaid will have much more production. Knox started slow last year

[DCofNC]

20 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well when you are running 12 personnel as much as we are and then not using your TE's as weapons then its a problem.  If we are running our TE's for 7 ypc, any JAG off the street TE can manage that.  We have a ton of money in Knox and traded up for Kincaid to produce what any TE off the street could do.  Thats a problem.

 

When you are taking guys like Sherfield and Harty off the field to put 2 TE's out there and then just dumping off passes to them that you could do with any RB or TE, that is a problem.

 

We drafted...traded up mind you...Kincaid to pair with Knox to create mismatches all over the field and to take adantage of those and put pressure on the D at all 3 levels.  We aren't doing that.

 

Dorsey NEEDS to find a way to use the 12 personnel productively or he needs to stop running it.  Its that simple for me.  And I am not confident he will...he sucked at incorporating Knox in last year despite our desperate need for another weapon for Josh and Knox coming off a season with 9 TD's despite modest targets for a TE.  Now we are seeing the same lack of use of the TE's effectively this year.  

 

Its a problem and it starts with Dorsey.

I have to agree.  Put simply, it seems like the GM and the coaches have never been on the same page here.  I actually feel that’s more of a problem with the structure of power in the organization.  The GM SHOULD have the power to fire the coach, because he doesn’t, they run on parallel tracks, never forced to be accountable to the other.  
 

How many times have we seen the GM draft/sign players and the coaches refuse to use them to their strengths or at all?   It’s insane.  Easy ones, Elam, not a scheme fit. AJE, power rusher, try to make him a speed guy, when his lack of speed was the reason he fell in the draft.  Now I’ll give it to them, after 3 years, he’s had a productive game, so MAYBE that one will be ok.  To follow that with Drafting 2 DEs in a row, to have one be inactive all year, later shipped out for a bag of chips…  Cook, pass catcher that never gets thrown to, Kincaid, Knox, all big moves for street FA production.  It makes NO sense. 

[PBF81]

19 hours ago, JJGauna said:

Really hard to compare LaPorta and Kincaid. LaPorta has had 2 great games, one with Montgomery out, one with St. Brown out, their top two playmakers.

 

Kincaid on the other hand has been buried behind Diggs and Davis, and rightfully so.

 

Kincaid is an investment in the future for when Diggs and Davis are gone.

 

Kincaid may not even be here when Diggs & Davis are gone.   

 

He's not going to be happy long term if this continues.  Unless we win a Lombardi.  

 

Them everyone will be happy.  LOL

 

 

[PBF81]

16 hours ago, finn said:

Knox having to help Brown on so many plays is part of the problem, as many posters have pointed out. But it's not clear why Dorsey isn't running Kincaid deeper. 

 

Beane has to be frustrated. He gives Dorsey Hines (who isn't cheap), and Dorsey doesn't use him. Then he drafts Kincaid in the first round, and Dorsey doesn't use him, either, at least not well. 

 

I wouldn't pin it all Dorsey.  

 

Having a great coach with his hands, apparently, tied in the matter, is problematic.  

 

I have no idea why McD perpetually gets a pass at the mismanagement of the most relevant piece of the team.  

 

Apparently the whole "culture" thing outweighs the performance aspect.  

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, SUNY_amherst said:

Kincaid was a dumb draft pick

 

giving Knox that big contract was dumber though

Maybe they were trying to give Dorsey a hint. If so, he clearly didn’t get it. 😉

[PBF81]

12 hours ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

Jets game is a good example. Pass yards were hard to come by and our TEs only produced 25 and 26 yds on 7 total catches. They both only had one catch in the entire second half. 
 

TEs should be exposing mismatches and give the qb an outlet to throw. When they’re not getting open, you’re forcing Josh to make tough short throws against a good jets pass D. 

 

Which raises a great point, between them they have only 9 1st-Downs on the season, not even 2/game.  

 

Harty & Murray have 9 in contrast.  

 

Here's another thing, in Beasley's two best seasons her he averaged nearly 12 YPR.  Kincaid/Davis aren't even averaging 7 YPR.  

 

 

[Lost]

5 minutes ago, SUNY_amherst said:

Kincaid was a dumb draft pick

 

giving Knox that big contract was dumber though

 

Agree on the Knox part.  I like him but 13 million per year is a lot of money for a glorified chip blocker.

[PBF81]

6 minutes ago, SUNY_amherst said:

Giving Knox that big contract was dumber though

 

It's definitely a head scratcher.  

 

 

[Beast]

22 hours ago, Numark3 said:

Is it a goal to have TE production?  For the most part, the offense is humming and the TEs are a part of it.  What is the issue or your point?

 

Hey Dorsey, we want more TE production:

 

dorsey: Why?

 

idk

Then why spend 53 million on 1 TE and a 1st round pick on another.

 

Maybe the assets spent on the position of tight end were a waste and could have been better used elsewhere?

 

The offense is humming alright…when they play ***** defenses. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Beast

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, SUNY_amherst said:

Kincaid was a dumb draft pick

 

giving Knox that big contract was dumber though

I didn’t love the trade up. If Kincaid fell to the Bills at their original pick, okay sure, but wasting another 4th? Don’t care if Dallas took him either, another player with lots of potential would've been available, as is usually the case in the early rounds.
Last year when we pissed away our 4th trading up for Elam, these were some of the players available at pick 130, before the Bills next selection of Shakir:

QB Sam Howell (WAS)

WR Romeo Doubs (GB)

TE Isaiah Likely (BAL)

TE Chigoziem Okonkwo (TN)

OT Spencer Burford (SF)

OT Cordell Volson (CIN)

LB Micah McFadden (NYG)

CB Josh Williams (KC)

 

The majority of them are starters and could’ve been, at the least, key contributors here. There’s legitimate value in fourth round picks and we’ve pissed away both in consecutive years. I really wish Beane was more patient.

[HoofHearted]

On 10/12/2023 at 11:25 AM, Simon said:

 

If they weren't spending half the game covering the RT, they would be a much more dynamic part of the offense.

As it is, the Bills are spending a significant percentage of their passing downs playing 10 vs 11.

This narrative is exaggerated. Are they chipping some? Yes. Is it anywhere close to 50 percent of snaps? No.

 

There were quite a few vertical concepts by Tight Ends in the Jaguars game. Some of them were just collector routes but others were part of the progression. Pocket breakdowns or 1v1 matchups backside that Josh liked instead were big reasons why they weren’t targeted.

 

Vast majority of chips came on play action.

[Simon]

3 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

This narrative is exaggerated. Are they chipping some? Yes. Is it anywhere close to 50 percent of snaps? No.

 

 

It probably isn't actually 50.

But I wouldn't be surprised if it's hovering somewhere above 40.

[Simon]

3 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

This narrative is exaggerated. Are they chipping some? Yes. Is it anywhere close to 50 percent of snaps? No.

 

There were quite a few vertical concepts by Tight Ends in the Jaguars game. Some of them were just collector routes but others were part of the progression. Pocket breakdowns or 1v1 matchups backside that Josh liked instead were big reasons why they weren’t targeted.

 

Vast majority of chips came on play action.

I can't speak to it's accuracy but here's a graph built from the PFF data that somebody posted a week ago.

 

[BullBuchanan]

On 10/12/2023 at 11:21 AM, Numark3 said:

Is it a goal to have TE production?  For the most part, the offense is humming and the TEs are a part of it.  What is the issue or your point?

 

Hey Dorsey, we want more TE production:

 

dorsey: Why?

 

idk

Offense is humming? Like a car with a dead battery?

[What a Tuel]

35 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Offense is humming? Like a car with a dead battery?

 

Seems to be humming.

 

3rd in points scored.

4th in total yards.

4th in passing yards.

3rd in passing tds.

15th in rushing yards.

5th in rushing tds.

[FireChans]

On 10/12/2023 at 11:21 AM, Numark3 said:

Is it a goal to have TE production?  For the most part, the offense is humming and the TEs are a part of it.  What is the issue or your point?

 

Hey Dorsey, we want more TE production:

 

dorsey: Why?

 

idk

Yeah, I watched the Bills not get a first down until 4 min in the second quarter last week and said “wow, the offense is humming.”

 

Get lawst with this.

On 10/12/2023 at 1:21 PM, 716 said:

All the hate for Dorsey and the lack of TE production, but I don't recall very much TE success with Daboll, or forever for that matter in Buffalo. Am I wrong?

Dawson Knox was near the top in the league in TE TD’s in 2021

[3rdand12]

49 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

Seems to be humming.

 

3rd in points scored.

4th in total yards.

4th in passing yards.

3rd in passing tds.

15th in rushing yards.

5th in rushing tds.

W/L ?

THis subject makes me something something crazy !
 I do not understand why Bills hate TEs since forever.

 

The answer to winning is right there. It really is. and using Cook/Hines as a pass catcher. Geesh

 

I miss Scott Chandler

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 10/12/2023 at 12:21 PM, Numark3 said:

Is it a goal to have TE production?  For the most part, the offense is humming and the TEs are a part of it.  What is the issue or your point?

 

Hey Dorsey, we want more TE production:

 

dorsey: Why?

 

idk

Probably because we got stomped out by the Jaguars. Would’ve been nice seeing what Kincaid could do if we were gonna lose the game anyway. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

10 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

W/L ?

THis subject makes me something something crazy !
 I do not understand why Bills hate TEs since forever.

 

The answer to winning is right there. It really is. and using Cook/Hines as a pass catcher. Geesh

 

I miss Scott Chandler

I was gonna criticize u for using Scott Chandler as the Bills’ beacon of TEs. Then I googled Chandler and he still owns the best statistical season of any TE in Bills history since 1967. Pretty Fing sad. 
 

I don’t care if Kincaid is a rookie, he didn’t forget how to run routes. Dorsey should use the CJ Spiller method and get him out in space more. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by ChronicAndKnuckles

[FireChans]

10 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

I wouldn't pin it all Dorsey.  

 

Having a great coach with his hands, apparently, tied in the matter, is problematic.  

 

I have no idea why McD perpetually gets a pass at the mismanagement of the most relevant piece of the team.  

 

Apparently the whole "culture" thing outweighs the performance aspect.  

 

 

IMO there are probably less that 2 coaches in the NFL that are force multipliers on both sides of the ball. 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

IMO there are probably less that 2 coaches in the NFL that are force multipliers on both sides of the ball. 

 

Not suggesting he had to be a force multiplier, but anyone watching knows what some of the issues are, at least force your OC to correct it. 

 

 

[Dopey]

There’s only one ball to go around. The more touches Kincaid gets, the less others get. Like maybe Davis. And the same people would complain about Davis not producing. 

[BADOLBILZ]

On 10/12/2023 at 12:25 PM, Simon said:

 

If they weren't spending half the game covering the RT, they would be a much more dynamic part of the offense.

As it is, the Bills are spending a significant percentage of their passing downs playing 10 vs 11.

 

 

It seems that it hurts the feelings of some here that the Bills can't just go 5 wide and have Josh Allen toss 4 yard passes from the shotgun all day because Spencer Brown isn't one of the best pass blocking RT's in the league.

 

But not me..........the Bills are much more dynamic with 6(or 7) blockers in.

 

So I couldn't care less about TE stats when Diggs or Davis are wide open outside/downfield because the defense isn't able to spread out and play 2 high with the safeties out to the numbers like when Rob Johnson was the QB.

 

The outside WR are clearly on pace for much better seasons than last year as a result.    

 

That's where the TE numbers are going to.

 

Now imagine if BOTH of those receivers were studs instead of one of them being Gabe Davis.

 

 

[HoofHearted]

5 hours ago, Simon said:

I can't speak to it's accuracy but here's a graph built from the PFF data that somebody posted a week ago.

 

It’s probably fairly accurate - their raw data stuff usually is. We slide protection his way quite a bit so I’m not surprised by the “left on island” rate. The help isn’t coming from the right ends as frequently as people seem to think though.

[3rdand12]

15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It seems that it hurts the feelings of some here that the Bills can't just go 5 wide and have Josh Allen toss 4 yard passes from the shotgun all day because Spencer Brown isn't one of the best pass blocking RT's in the league.

 

But not me..........the Bills are much more dynamic with 6(or 7) blockers in.

 

So I couldn't care less about TE stats when Diggs or Davis are wide open outside/downfield because the defense isn't able to spread out and play 2 high with the safeties out to the numbers like when Rob Johnson was the QB.

 

The outside WR are clearly on pace for much better seasons than last year as a result.    

 

That's where the TE numbers are going to.

 

Now imagine if BOTH of those receivers were studs instead of one of them being Gabe Davis.

 

 

Imagine if one of them was Kincaid ?

[PBF81]

19 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

It seems that it hurts the feelings of some here that the Bills can't just go 5 wide and have Josh Allen toss 4 yard passes from the shotgun all day because Spencer Brown isn't one of the best pass blocking RT's in the league.

 

But not me..........the Bills are much more dynamic with 6(or 7) blockers in.

 

So I couldn't care less about TE stats when Diggs or Davis are wide open outside/downfield because the defense isn't able to spread out and play 2 high with the safeties out to the numbers like when Rob Johnson was the QB.

 

The outside WR are clearly on pace for much better seasons than last year as a result.    

 

That's where the TE numbers are going to.

 

Now imagine if BOTH of those receivers were studs instead of one of them being Gabe Davis.

 

It seems to me that from what I've read, the primary criticism is why the drafted Kincaid if that's all they're going to do, particularly when other needs, like perhaps a blocker that wouldn't require us to have 7 blockers, and maybe only 6, or instead of 6, only 5 at times. 

 

Kincaid's on pace for about 400 yards, 0 TDs, and fewer than 7 YPC by season's end. 

 

That's going to be tough to justify on why the team believed that needed to trade up for Kincaid in the 1st.  

 

Kind of like last season when they traded Moss for Hines because Hines was a dynamic receiver.  Then he caught a fraction of the passes that he caught on a per-game basis throughout his career.  

 

Those aren't the types of things that inspire confidence.  

 

And notice I've taken no side, just putting the facts out.  But teams don't draft a receiving TE with limited blocking skills and then say to themselves, we'll be ecstatic if he puts up 25 yards-per-game and can get 6 or 7 YPR, and we don't care if logs any TDs.  

 

If McBeane & Co. don't want to be criticized, then it's pretty simple, start making decisions that make sense.  Meanwhile, over in Indy, Moss is tearing it up.  After this weekend he'll likely lead the AFC in rushing, outperforming Cook.  What does that say about McD's coaching and Dorsey's coaching.  Nothing positive to be sure.  

 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by PBF81