Jordan Palmer on Allen - It’s more about the loss Brian Daboll, who Bellicheck says is elite

[Royale with Cheese]

27 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

This is why you want the HC to be the de facto OC if you have an elite QB. I wish Doug Pederson was coaching this team.

 

I'm not sure I believe in this.  Belicheck was not the de factor OC with Brady.  Tomlin wasn't the de facto OC when Big Ben was there.  John Harbaugh isn't the de facto OC with Jackson.  

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

10 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Yeah I read an article on this today.  Thats a pretty big complement from Belichick if he actually said that.  I do believe Daboll is really smart and is a good coach. 

 

Reminds me of the comment made might have been 30 or 40 years ago by Bum Phillips. He was talking about Don Shula (when he was in his prime coaching years)

 

Bum said: " He can take his guys and beat your guys or take your guys and beat his guys!"

[78thealltimegreat]

I would find this a lot more credible if he wasn’t saying similar things about Joe Judge

 

https://www.giants.com/news/joe-judge-bill-belichick-new-england-patriots-joint-practices-preseason-finale

[McBean]

Source told me this last night who is good friends with Robert Saleh…

 

Saleh said quote, “Buffalos offense is so vanilla now. They are easy to game plan. Ken Dorsey is their major problem at the moment. No schemes, nothing fancy, very vanilla.”

 

This is a 100% fact. I don’t come on here to lie. Believe it or not but shook me when I heard this because ultimately Dorsey will get the ax end of year, not McDermott

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I'm not sure I believe in this.  Belicheck was not the de factor OC with Brady.  Tomlin wasn't the de facto OC when Big Ben was there.  John Harbaugh isn't the de facto OC with Jackson.  

 

but. did they not have pretty damn good OC's to go along with those mentioned HC's. I realize the deal is having an Offensive mind HC the answer to an elite QB and I believe, yes, it would be but if it is a Defensive mind HC, like those mentioned, they at least had a legit play caller to go with the elite QB whereas McD, does not.

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, pocoboy said:

That's been my inherent belief all along, that Daboll was more effective at extracting the potential out of the offensive playbook. The devil is in the details, you can just slap a playbook together with this route tree and that zone block scheme...but there are going to be ways to optimize the effectiveness of those plays. For example:

• The receiver who is supposed to tie up Whitehead's attention long enough to get Diggs open on that post (Sherfield?)
• Gabe running an unassuming flag route that gets jumped.
• Late last season, there was a play where Dawson made a head fake which totally created the room necessary to fit the ball in on a TD.

My contention is that some of Daboll's keys are still remembered & run - Diggs is probably first and foremost. But with new receivers, if they aren't being shown those gritty details that turn a batted down ball (or in Monday night's cases all too often, an INT) into a tight-window completion, it's gonna be a whole lot tougher for this offense to succeed.

 

I think there's some truth to that. But also in Allen's best season the talent was much better. Diggs, Beasley's best season as a pro, a still competent Jon Brown, then Davis, Knox and McKenzie.

 

Not to mention one of D Williams best seasons at RT. In fact, that was the one season in Allen's career that he had average or above average play at RT...

 

So I think it's a talent issue as much as a fundamentals issue. 

 

Honestly, in the pre-game show they had a close up of Allen taking a shotgun snap, his eyes weren't looking at the ball at all. He was staring down field and caught the ball with his peripheral vision. I said to myself, that's going to cost him... and it literally did, he didn't look the ball all the way in on the fumble play. He peaked at Cook who he was going to ha d it off too before he had it secured. 

 

He was panicked and his mind was racing faster than his body, and certainly too fast to actually be aware of the situation. 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Motorin'

[Mr. WEO]

lol "best coach in football".

 

 

In how many years??

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

25 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

but. did they not have pretty damn good OC's to go along with those mentioned HC's. I realize the deal is having an Offensive mind HC the answer to an elite QB and I believe, yes, it would be but if it is a Defensive mind HC, like those mentioned, they at least had a legit play caller to go with the elite QB whereas McD, does not.

 

The only thing we have right now to go by is week 1 and the game plan was fine.  Allen was the predominant issue.

[NewEra]

27 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I'm not sure I believe in this.  Belicheck was not the de factor OC with Brady.  Tomlin wasn't the de facto OC when Big Ben was there.  John Harbaugh isn't the de facto OC with Jackson.  

 

Nothing is 💯…… 

 

If I had an elite qb, I’d much rather have an offensive head coach.  It allows him to stay in the same system with the same voice and football mind mentoring him.  Josh Allen has gotten worse since the voice in his ear left.  That’s clear to me right now.  He can still turn it around, but Daboll leaving has hurt Josh to date. 
 

Learning and mastering one good offensive system >>>> having to learn multiple systems and possibly switching systems every couple years.

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

35 minutes ago, McBean said:

Source told me this last night who is good friends with Robert Saleh…

 

Saleh said quote, “Buffalos offense is so vanilla now. They are easy to game plan. Ken Dorsey is their major problem at the moment. No schemes, nothing fancy, very vanilla.”

 

This is a 100% fact. I don’t come on here to lie. Believe it or not but shook me when I heard this because ultimately Dorsey will get the ax end of year, not McDermott

 

Hmmmmm.....

 

So lets take a look at this offense and the complaints the last two years.

• Terrible OC
• Terrible HC
• Terrible GM
• Vanilla offensive game plan
• Fat, out of shape and overrated left tackle.
• Worst Right tackle in the NFL.
• Center is one concussion away from retiring and isn't very good.
• LG is a JAG
• Only 1 good WR
• No speed at WR
• Terrible #2 WR who can't catch
• No true #1 back
• Josh Allen numerous turnovers and playing hero ball.

3rd in scoring last year.  

 

I guess we have unseen forces allowing us to score.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[Heavy Kevi]

Josh just needs a good OC, not even a great one...

 

But that OC needs to be able to hold Josh accountable. That's what he's missing right now. Discipline. 

 

He's all over the place, this is wild hero-ball josh. We need coaching that can reign him in.

 

I also agree his relationship with Dorsey is probably too casual. 

[NewEra]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

The only thing we have right now to go by is week 1 and the game plan was fine.  Allen was the predominant issue.

His decision making was the predominant issue.  Part of an OCs job to limit those QB mistakes.  
 

case and point-

Daniel Jones turnover per game without Daboll: 1.77, 1.14, .91

 

With Daboll:  .5

   
 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

His decision making was the predominant issue.  Part of an OCs job to limit those QB mistakes.  
 

case and point-

Daniel Jones turnover per game without Daboll: 1.77, 1.14, .91

 

With Daboll:  .5

   
 

 

Allen's career high in INT's was Daboll's last year with 15.  Allen also fumbled the ball 39 times in 5 years with Daboll.

 

 

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Hmmmmm.....

 

So lets take a look at this offense and the complaints the last two years.

• Terrible OC
• Terrible HC
• Terrible GM
• Vanilla offensive game plan
• Fat, out of shape and overrated left tackle.
• Worst Right tackle in the NFL.
• Center is one concussion away from retiring and isn't very good.
• LG is a JAG
• Only 1 good WR
• No speed at WR
• Terrible #2 WR who can't catch
• No true #1 back
• Josh Allen numerous turnovers and playing hero ball.

3rd in scoring last year.  

 

I guess we have unseen forces allowing us to score.

Allen and Diggs are the best pitch and catch duo in the league. That’s what happens when you have a pair like that.  You score.

 

I’m not saying Dorsey isn’t worthy (although I might be in a few weeks).   I just think our scoring has much more to do with Allen/Diggs than Dorsey’s concepts, scheme, play calling. 

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Allen's career high in INT's was Daboll's last year with 15.  Allen also fumbled the ball 39 times in 5 years with Daboll.

 

 

Right…. But let’s not act like the current Josh allen is the same josh allen we saw under Daboll

[Beck Water]

11 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

“It’s less about Ken Dorsey & what he isn’t. It’s more about Brian Daboll. I think a few years from now we’ll all say that’s the best coach in football…”

 

“(Bill Belichick) made a comment to me once & we were talking about Daboll and he said ‘Daboll’s one of the only coaches I’ve ever been around that can be an elite offensive coordinator, an elite defensive coordinator & an elite special teams coordinator. He understands football at that level.’”

 

“When you lose that, you aren’t just gonna replace it.”

 

“What Josh benefited from with Daboll was not just the play calling but learning the game… learning the game from who Bill Belichick and a lot of other people think is one of the smarter dudes in the league at teaching the position”.

 

 

Edit - I can't find the clip from Cowturd right now

 

I believe Daboll is a very good football coach. Maybe a very very good football coach. I also believe that he developed a strong mentoring relationship with Josh.  I think that took time, though - notably, until after game 4 of the 2019 season, a game in which Josh had 3 INT and a fumble, and Daboll was seen screaming at Josh on the sidelines.  Josh has said he had meetings with McDermott and Beane after that game and made promises, and it was a turning point in his career.  Maybe Josh needs another set of meetings and to renew his promises.

 

With regard to what Belicheck said....let's just look at what Belicheck has actually DONE vs anything he's said, with regard to Brian Daboll.

 

Consider a few of Belicheck's other strong coaching endorsements.  He recommended the elite Josh McDaniel as HC in Denver, so much that McDaniel was given roster control.  He failed, badly.  He also failed as OC with the St Louis Rams - a QB in Sam Bradford who had thrown 18 TD and 15 INT and shown promise the previous year under Pat Shurmer (barely missed playoffs), under McDaniel threw 6 TD and 6 INT and basically looked totally incapable as a QB.  The following year under Brian Schottenheimer, Bradford looked competent again and improved from his rookie season, 21 TD 13 INT and again in 2013.  Time Will Tell what McDaniel can do in Vegas, but in 2022 it was 6-11 with a team that was 8-8, 10-7 the previous 2 years.

 

In 2018, Belicheck recommended his DC, Matt Patricia, as HC of the Lions.  Patricia failed.  In 2018, the elite and uniformly brilliant Daboll was available and could presumably have been pushed as a HC candidate there.

In 2020, Belicheck recommended his ST coach Joe Judge (who he presumably thought could be an effective HC with ability to understand offensive and defensive coaching) to be HC of the Giants.  He failed.

So maybe Belicheck's judgement of what his former coaching assistants can do, is a bit falliable, eh?

 

What Belicheck didn't do?  Belicheck, from 2002 to 2006 and again from 2013 to 2016, give the Elite Brian Daboll an opportunity to be a coordinator for him.  In 2006, after moving on from Charlie Weis in 2004 and having the position open a year, he gave Josh McDaniel the nod.  So Daboll moved on and took crap OC positions.  When Daboll came back to the Pats in 2011 and Bill OBrien left after the season, again it was Josh McDaniel who got the nod as OC and Matt Patricia as DC. 

 

In 2018, after Patricia left, Belicheck could have recruited the elite defensive coordinator Brian Daboll to come back to NE.  Instead Daboll came to the Bills as OC.

 

So....Bill Belicheck is without question an elite football mind and a HOF head coach.  But perhaps one ought to take what he says in public about his former assistants with a large salt shaker? 

 

And again, I'm not trying to dis on Daboll.  But when Daboll was here as OC of the Bills, we all saw weird stuff at times.  The run play design in 2018.  The inability to craft a run game that would work with the personnel the Bills had and that had worked the previous year 2019  (pin and pull blocking etc) in 2020 and 2021.  (this was meticulously charted out by Cover1 in case anyone cares)

Maybe the best known example would be the Steelers season opener in 2021.  Score 20-10 Pittsburgh.  Context is that Daboll came out with 5 wide sets and a plan to rely on the intermediate passing game.  The Steelers D came out with an effective plan to blanket the middle of the field and prevent that while bringing pressure with 4 or even 3.  Daboll seemed to have no effective counter drawn up.  Then, in the 4th Q., 3rd and 5 on the Pittsburgh 5, Daboll called a trick play to lateral the ball to Singletary, resulting in a loss of 2 yards and a fumble (OOB).  It was a copy of a play that had been successfully used elsewhere, BUT CRITICALLY, WITHOUT THE TE MOTION IN TIGHT that faked out the D and made it effective.  McDermott was clear after the game that as a DC, he felt that was a play that gave the Bills no chance to convert.

 

Anyway, I hope Daboll gets the Giants season turned around.  And I think Daboll showed great promise his first year as HC.  But maybe we ought to hold off a second on canonizing Saint Daboll based on the words of Bill Belicheck - especially on the hearsay of Jordon Palmer, whose bread is perhaps buttered a bit on being a Josh Allen Apologist.  (Without Josh, no way does he have the success he's had or media interest)

Dorsey is the current OC of the Bills because Josh Allen fought for him.  If Josh Allen isn't as "buttoned up" because he's refusing to be coached by Dorsey and by Joe Judge, he needs to go check himself because he's going to get them both fired and his career trajectory will mirror Carson Wentz PDQ

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[teef]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

His decision making was the predominant issue.  Part of an OCs job to limit those QB mistakes.  
 

case and point-

Daniel Jones turnover per game without Daboll: 1.77, 1.14, .91

 

With Daboll:  .5

   
 

i do agree with the idea, but allen is such a different qb than jones.  i'll always expect some wonky ints with allen, but he was sloppy over all.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Well if Josh needs the same OC-QB Coach for the duration of his career that's not reality. 

 

Such a goofy take. 

[LABILLBACKER]

51 minutes ago, McBean said:

Source told me this last night who is good friends with Robert Saleh…

 

Saleh said quote, “Buffalos offense is so vanilla now. They are easy to game plan. Ken Dorsey is their major problem at the moment. No schemes, nothing fancy, very vanilla.”

 

This is a 100% fact. I don’t come on here to lie. Believe it or not but shook me when I heard this because ultimately Dorsey will get the ax end of year, not McDermott

There's nothing clever or tactical about Dorsey's offense.  At least Daboll had a few wrinkles to throw at people.  And you wonder why Josh has to go off script so often.  Monday night was a full blown Allen crapfest, but Dorsey factors in too.

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, teef said:

i do agree with the idea, but allen is such a different qb than jones.  i'll always expect some wonky ints with allen, but he was sloppy over all.

For sure.  My point is- it’s better to have one consistent great mind whispering in the QBs ear for his career than having several voices, systems, concepts and verbiage.  Possibly changing every 2-3 years.  
 

How many top tier QBs are being coached head coaches that weren’t OCs?   Justin Herbert and Lamar. 1 playoff win between them.

 

Again…..there’s more than one way to skin a  cat….. and there’s clearly a best way to skin one.  

5 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Well if Josh needs the same OC-QB Coach for the duration of his career that's not reality. 

 

Such a goofy take. 

Who is saying he “needs”?  It helps.  Do you think Mahomes would be the same without reid?  

[teef]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

For sure.  My point is- it’s better to have one consistent great mind whispering in the QBs ear for his career than having several voices, systems, concepts and verbiage.  Possibly changing every 2-3 years.  
 

How many top tier QBs are being coached head coaches that weren’t OCs?   Justin Herbert and Lamar. 1 playoff win between them.

 

Again…..there’s more than one way to skin a  cat….. and there’s clearly a best way to skin one.  

i can't disagree with this.  i'm not taking the blame off coaching at all either, but a lot of those mistakes on monday were execution, which i don't know why it's so hard for some to admit, (not you).  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

For sure.  My point is- it’s better to have one consistent great mind whispering in the QBs ear for his career than having several voices, systems, concepts and verbiage.  Possibly changing every 2-3 years.  
 

How many top tier QBs are being coached head coaches that weren’t OCs?   Justin Herbert and Lamar. 1 playoff win between them.

 

Again…..there’s more than one way to skin a  cat….. and there’s clearly a best way to skin one.  

Who is saying he “needs”?  It helps.  Do you think Mahomes would be the same without reid?  

I think Mahomes is great and would work in any system. 

 

His vision is incredible. 

 

If you stuck him on the Cardinals today, they'd become more competitive instantly. 

 

[SCBills]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Well if Josh needs the same OC-QB Coach for the duration of his career that's not reality. 

 

Such a goofy take. 

 

Not really.  

 

Mahomes/Reid

 

Burrow/Taylor

 

Lawrence/Pederson

 

Hurts/Sirianni

 

Tua/McDaniel

 

And on down the line... Allen is a rarity to be an elite QB paired with a Defensive HC.   Even Rodgers brought Hackett with him to go play for a Defensive minded HC in Salah.  

[BuffaloBillyG]

Belichick also thought Matt Patricia would make a great offensive coordinator and Joe Judge would be great as a QB coach. Maybe tap the breaks on Bill's opinion on this topic.

[Beck Water]

39 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Right…. But let’s not act like the current Josh allen is the same josh allen we saw under Daboll

 

Isn't he?

 

Josh Allen was a noted Wild Man in 2018 and 2019 - under Daboll.

 

In 2019 Game 4 vs NE, Josh threw 3 INT and had a fumble - under Daboll.  Josh has said there were "come to Jesus" meetings and he changed.

In 2020 Game 5 vs Tenn, Josh threw 2 INT.   Passer rating 'eh', but that was a bad game for Josh.

In 2021, Josh had 2 games with passer ratings (not total QBR, passer) below 65 - Jacksonville (62.7: 0 TD 2 INT, 1 fumble) and Atlanta (17: 0 TD 3 INT)

 

In 2022, Josh had 8 regular season games with a passer rating over 100, 7 games with 0 turnovers, and 6 games with a manageable 1 (total 13)

 

I think there's a bit of recency bias in believing Josh was uniformly focused, buttoned up and dedicated under Daboll and "is not the same" under Dorsey.  Josh has had some very very good, 'buttoned up' games under Dorsey. 

 

But I also think it's clear that something is amiss the last handful of games played, and Josh has fallen prey to some "stinkin' thinkin' ".  So then the question becomes, can Dorsey and Judge get him back on track?  And I don't know. 

 

Another point to consider: Daboll had the teaching of Josh at a different point in his career.  Don't overlook the difference between mentoring a raw prospect on his first contract who is motivated to prove he can "make it" as a top player in the NFL, vs mentoring a QB who is on the cover of Madden, has endorsements all over the place, and would cost the team $118M in dead money to move on - even if it's the same man doing the mentoring.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

35 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

The only thing we have right now to go by is week 1 and the game plan was fine.  Allen was the predominant issue.

I agree he was, not a doubt. will not be able to really judge against the raiders but can still see the calls. Jury is still out on Dorsey. I really just don't see him becoming a great OC. too bad a well seasoned, successful OC could not of been brought in instead of learning on the fly as Dorsey has done, whom is still green in OC standards.

 

most importantly though, JA needs to get back on course and get his head in the game. not let a defense like the jets did, get in to his head. should not be a problem against the raiders?

[Beck Water]

11 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

1000% Josh is missing daboll.. that doesn't mean Brian is better than Josh [insert: do you mean Dorsey here?] or a miracle worker

 

They had a great Bond.. that Brian was able to develop since Josh was 22... Brian was able to rip into him and give him criticism... Without pushback

What all professional football players need..  a coach to coach them

 

I don't think Allen respects Dorsey enough to be coached by him... Sure he can play under him... But he doesn't fear and respect him enough to take in coaching

 

Allen had plenty of mentors before Dorsey... Craig bohl... Jordan Palmer , daboll assisted by McDermott

 

Now he's down to the guy that was working under daboll... This is the NFL

 

The best offensive minds in the game of American football would love to work with Josh Allen... But McDermott is fine with bringing up coaches from his tree... But remember Brian daboll was not from his coaching tree... he was the best person to develop Josh Allen

 

Josh is not a lost cause.. and he's one of the most talented football players in the last 30 years... sans position.. he's that good

 

And McDermott runs a good enough ship to win with him... He just needs to stop promoting with this heart and give it to the person that deserves the job

 

Josh deserves an upper echelon schemer... Because Josh's talent is upper echelon in a league full of elite talent

 

And there is a Kyle shanahan waiting in the wings who would kill for a guy with that talent

Since I have more football information stuck in my head the 90% of this board...

 

You do realize Nathaniel Hackett has the savant and guru label applied to him from a young age

 

LOL I expect I'm part of the "great unwashed" 90% LOL.

 

I agree with you that Josh and Daboll had a great bond.  I think you're correct that Brian was able to rip into him and critique him.  But that wasn't built instantly.  Josh has attributed the turning point to 2019 Game 4 vs NE when Josh had 4 turnovers (3 INT, 1 fumble) and got knocked out of the game with a concussion.  He's said he had conversations with Beane and McDermott after that, and made promises.

 

He needs to freakin' renew those vows.

 

I'm concerned you may be right about Allen not respecting Dorsey enough to be coached by him, but if that's true, than Josh Allen needs to check himself.  Because Dorsey was hired as OC, I believe, largely because Allen fought for him.  Allen has given Dorsey lots of credit as his QB coach - said that "my career changed when he walked through the door" (because of the coaching Dorsey gave him)

 

So man, would be crap, if Allen was willing to be coached by Dorsey as a QB coach, but now tunes him out and says "yeah, yeah, Ok" AFTER getting him the job as OC.

 

Regarding Nathaniel Hackett, I believe part of the perception of him is based on the belief (substantiated I think) that Doug Marrone was de facto OC in Buffalo and possibly in Jacksonville 2016-2018 and called the plays, and that Matt LaFleur was de facto OC in Green Bay and called the plays. 

Curious who you think is the upper echelon schemer who would love to take over with Josh?

 

Also curious if you've rewatched the Jets game and/or all 22, and what your thinking is?  My perception is that Josh had answers on most plays, and that he didn't take them.

[Royale with Cheese]

20 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Allen and Diggs are the best pitch and catch duo in the league. That’s what happens when you have a pair like that.  You score.

 

I’m not saying Dorsey isn’t worthy (although I might be in a few weeks).   I just think our scoring has much more to do with Allen/Diggs than Dorsey’s concepts, scheme, play calling. 

Right…. But let’s not act like the current Josh allen is the same josh allen we saw under Daboll

 

You can't be terrible everywhere accept two positions and be top scoring team.  That's my point.

 

Yes, when you have that pair you score.  What if you have more than 1?  Lets say 3 like the Bengals?  Or a Chiefs team that has the greatest tight end, best play caller and great offensive line?  It's talked about a lot that these teams are loaded with offensive talent and much better coaching.  If that's the case, how are we just behind the Chiefs last year in scoring and well above the Bengals?  It's either Allen/Diggs are a significantly better combo than what Burrow has or on par with what the Chiefs have....or maybe Dorsey isn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be.  

 

I'm not a huge fan Dorsey and have my gripes but last year with only one weapon, a terrible offensive line, no #2 WR, had to get Beasley/Brown off the street and no elite level RB....but we were ahead of the Bengals and just below the Chiefs in scoring.  I think a terrible OC with the ingredients Dorsey had last year, the offense would have been outside the top 10...probably top 15. 

 

And we did have our struggles with Dabol as well...he was hated on here.  We were 7-6 at one point in 2021, looked terrible opening day against the Steelers and got humiliated by the Jags. 

 

Our offense was clunkier last year with Dorsey, I absolutely can admit that.  But somehow we kept our production up.

I'm not a Dorsey apologist, I'm just not hard on him like most here are.  This is a big year for him to see if he improve our consistency and one game into the season, I'm not blaming him at all for MNF.  

 

Lets give him more time to see what he can do this year, especially if his QB can stop his bone headed turnovers.

If we are struggling again next week, then I will start getting a little concerned.  But not after last week.

13 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

I agree he was, not a doubt. will not be able to really judge against the raiders but can still see the calls. Jury is still out on Dorsey. I really just don't see him becoming a great OC. too bad a well seasoned, successful OC could not of been brought in instead of learning on the fly as Dorsey has done, whom is still green in OC standards.

 

most importantly though, JA needs to get back on course and get his head in the game. not let a defense like the jets did, get in to his head. should not be a problem against the raiders?

 

If we struggle against the Raiders, I will start getting the bad feeling.

[Nephilim17]

10 hours ago, Mango said:

The more I sit with this the more I see it similar to Michael Irvin. You can tell Josh to play smart. You can yell at him. But you can’t signal to the public that he’s dumb (pointing at your head).

 

Palmer doesn’t help here. By publicly saying  “He misses Daboll” he’s also saying “Josh is broken and needs help”.

 

But also…WTF does Josh pay this guy for. It’s week 1 and this was a mess. How can a private QB coach be like “It’s the OC” after spending more time with him than anybody in the offseason? And then be like “The real secret sauce isn’t me or his current OC, it’s the HC of the Giants?

Exactly. Palmer saying this a) diminishes Josh's abilities (the greatness could only be harnessed by one man who isn't Josh and b) makes Palmer's influence seem insignificant.

 

Josh IS responsible for his poor play week 1 and league-leading turnover over long stretches of time and needs to be held accountable. But Palmer should be more careful when discussing his clients in public.

[Mango]

8 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

Exactly. Palmer saying this a) diminishes Josh's abilities (the greatness could only be harnessed by one man who isn't Josh and b) makes Palmer's influence seem insignificant.

 

Josh IS responsible for his poor play week 1 and league-leading turnover over long stretches of time and needs to be held accountable. But Palmer should be more careful when discussing his clients in public.

I think part of this also implies that Josh isn’t working with Palmer nearly as much. I think they likely interact all the time on a friendly basis. But I don’t think any sort of contracted personal coach would speak so freely. I’m not saying this is a swipe at Josh, or ill will, but this type of commentary seems to hint at a less professional relationship. 
 

In my industry if I’m an independent contractor for Apple, I would never go on record to talk about how much better Steve Jobs was. But I might if I just had a bunch of buddies who worked there. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Mango

[NewEra]

47 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I think Mahomes is great and would work in any system. 

 

His vision is incredible. 

 

If you stuck him on the Cardinals today, they'd become more competitive instantly. 

 

They’d become more competitive…..of course. But would he be as good as he is now, as he is in Andy Reid’s system with him in his ear like he’s been his entire nfl career?

 

 

[jletha]

12 hours ago, bouds said:

Allen looked fine without Daboll

Allen also had times where he looked lost with Daboll. The 2021 season had several stinkers (Pitt, Jax, Indy). It was on Daboll then to work it out and we had the best Bills team Id ever seen in my 35 years going into the playoffs.

 

Now the same task goes to Dorsey.

[NewEra]

28 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

You can't be terrible everywhere accept two positions and be top scoring team.  That's my point.

 

Yes, when you have that pair you score.  What if you have more than 1?  Lets say 3 like the Bengals?  Or a Chiefs team that has the greatest tight end, best play caller and great offensive line?  It's talked about a lot that these teams are loaded with offensive talent and much better coaching.  If that's the case, how are we just behind the Chiefs last year in scoring and well above the Bengals?  It's either Allen/Diggs are a significantly better combo than what Burrow has or on par with what the Chiefs have....or maybe Dorsey isn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be.  

 

I'm not a huge fan Dorsey and have my gripes but last year with only one weapon, a terrible offensive line, no #2 WR, had to get Beasley/Brown off the street and no elite level RB....but we were ahead of the Bengals and just below the Chiefs in scoring.  I think a terrible OC with the ingredients Dorsey had last year, the offense would have been outside the top 10...probably top 15. 

 

And we did have our struggles with Dabol as well...he was hated on here.  We were 7-6 at one point in 2021, looked terrible opening day against the Steelers and got humiliated by the Jags. 

 

Our offense was clunkier last year with Dorsey, I absolutely can admit that.  But somehow we kept our production up.

I'm not a Dorsey apologist, I'm just not hard on him like most here are.  This is a big year for him to see if he improve our consistency and one game into the season, I'm not blaming him at all for MNF.  

 

Lets give him more time to see what he can do this year, especially if his QB can stop his bone headed turnovers.

If we are struggling again next week, then I will start getting a little concerned.  But not after last week.

 

If we struggle against the Raiders, I will start getting the bad feeling.

I agree, let’s give him more time.  We don’t really have a choice at this point.  I’m sure Josh will turn things around.  Hopefully enough to still be an elite QB.

 

my only point in all of this is that having a good offensive head coach would be better for Josh than having a good defensive head coach.  

 

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, NewEra said:

I agree, let’s give him more time.  We don’t really have a choice at this point.  I’m sure Josh will turn things around.  Hopefully enough to still be an elite QB.

 

my only point in all of this is that having a good offensive head coach would be better for Josh than having a good defensive head coach.  

 

 

If we don't score on the Raiders, I will start changing my tune.  Something needs to change if you're struggling against the Raiders.

[Doc]

3 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

If that's how they truly thought an out wouldn't exist at the end of next season in that contract. Schoen rightfully saw the qb market about to explode and kept what they had. How much was that both him and dabolls choice vs the owner who badly wants Jones to succeed? 

 

I wouldn't read too much into the out.  Teams love to have them.  It depends on the player accepting it and I'm sure Jones and his camp jumped at the chance to get $81M over the first 2 years. 

 

And I can't see Schoen and Daboll going to Mara/Tisch after a couple years and needing a new QB because they failed to develop Jones and saying "just give us a few more years..."

Edited September 14, 2023 by Doc

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

If we don't score on the Raiders, I will start changing my tune.  Something needs to change if you're struggling against the Raiders.

👍🏻 

 

it’s a long season.  Let’s hope they (Josh and Ken) can right the ship and get us into the playoffs.  I realize Dorsey is also learning…..and I saw some stuff that I really liked on Monday.  We need more of it.  

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, jletha said:

Allen also had times where he looked lost with Daboll. The 2021 season had several stinkers (Pitt, Jax, Indy). It was on Daboll then to work it out and we had the best Bills team Id ever seen in my 35 years going into the playoffs.

 

Now the same task goes to Dorsey.

We had the best Bills team in the playoffs. Going into the playoffs? We had that win against Atlanta where Josh had perhaps the worst stats of his career as a passer. Remember this play? If Matt Ryan doesn't get flagged for taunting, they probably score and that game could have gone sideways. 

 

[Fan boy '92]

So, did we ever find out what it was about the situation in Buffalo that had Daboll out the door? Brian Flores' lawsuit was a great read.

[jethro_tull]

I say Josh is smart enough and has been around long enough to take on more responsibility- 

he should be allowed to make the offensive play calls.  

having to be leashed to an on the job training OC is holding him an the team back.  

[Chaos]

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I don't agree with this.  If you have a guy that you trust to run the offense, you give them the keys.

You miss the point. I am responding to Josh needs to get used to a new OC every couple of years.  This is a formula for never having continuity on the offensive side of the ball. This is a competitive disadvantage compared to elite situations like Brady and Mahomes.    If we had a long term OC who is very good, that provides the continuity, which is fine. But the premise I responded to is rolling over OCs constantly.  Not sure what teams have won champions with a HC who disowns the offense and has new OCs every couple of years 

[Mango]

21 minutes ago, jethro_tull said:

I say Josh is smart enough and has been around long enough to take on more responsibility- 

he should be allowed to make the offensive play calls.  

having to be leashed to an on the job training OC is holding him an the team back.  

How do we know he is not?
 

You say the team won’t give him enough play calling responsibilities.

 

I raise you they let him call the second half of the Colts pre-season game.

 

I would be floored if they let Allen put on a headset and call parts of a preseason game and didn’t give him some autonomy out on the field. 
 

Hell, the QB room has been his buddies for the last few years. How long did we keep his college roommate on the PS again?