Josh Allen since the KC win last season….22 TD’s and 16 INT’s.

[CincyBillsFan]

Wow the knives have really come out after Allen has a terrible game. For only the 2nd time in the last 3+ seasons (2020,2021,2022 & 2023) you can lay a loss directly on Allen.  The other being the Jacksonville game. There isn't a QB in the NFL over the last 5 years who hasn't had games like this and that includes Mahomes & Burrow.

 

I guess you have to ignore that the hype about the Jet's defense was real.  They're either the best or 2nd best D in the NFL.

 

Allen was very bad last night.  But so was Burrow & Watson and Mahomes was average.  Even the best will have nights like last night.  Get back to me with the venom if after 5 games Allen plays like that in 3 of them and the Bills are 1 - 4.  Right now this thread is a massive overreaction.

 

2 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Stop passing so much. Get under center, get Gilliam on the field with both TEs. Stop running shotgun every ***** down. Stop trying to play spread air raid ***** football…we have a 6’5 260lb QB that can run like a truck. Stop using him in the way we are using him. Don’t give the guy 35 throws a game to throw picks. Keep it simple and keep the offense rolling downhill with big physical sets. Change the way we play the game please. This will never work. We are not going to out pass Mahomes. You got to look in a mirror. We need to be way more of the Eagles.

While I agree in principal our O line isn't close to being good enough to do what the Eagles do.

 

[juno999]

13 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Wow the knives have really come out after Allen has a terrible game. For only the 2nd time in the last 3+ seasons (2020,2021,2022 & 2023) you can lay a loss directly on Allen.  The other being the Jacksonville game. There isn't a QB in the NFL over the last 5 years who hasn't had games like this and that includes Mahomes & Burrow.

 

I guess you have to ignore that the hype about the Jet's defense was real.  They're either the best or 2nd best D in the NFL.

 

Allen was very bad last night.  But so was Burrow & Watson and Mahomes was average.  Even the best will have nights like last night.  Get back to me with the venom if after 5 games Allen plays like that in 3 of them and the Bills are 1 - 4.  Right now this thread is a massive overreaction.

 

I understand your point but folks are pointing back to the end of last season as well.  Not just last night.  Allen has not played particularly well in quite a few games now.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

here is a list of active nfl qbs with higher career int%:

-winston

-Gabbert

-Darnold

-Henne

-Geno

-Mayfeild

-Dalton

-Mariotta

-Jimmy G

 

tied with:

-Stafford

-Tannyhill

-Turbinsky

 

stop throwing picks! 

[CincyBillsFan]

5 minutes ago, juno999 said:

I understand your point but folks are pointing back to the end of last season as well.  Not just last night.  Allen has not played particularly well in quite a few games now.

I thought Allen was brilliant in the Division winning game against the Dolphins late last year.  He basically was the reason they won that game.

 

Allen had an overall good game against the Dolphins in the playoffs not great but solid if you go by the numbers.

 

In the playoff loss to the Bengals Allen only turned the ball over once and that was a meaningless INT late n the 4th with the Bills down 27 - 10.

 

In the 2nd half of last season Allen played poorly in only 2 games:  against the Jets twice.  In the Vikings game Allen was average as his TO's cancelled out his great play.  But average isn't poor.  Allen was solid against Cleveland, Detroit & Chicago & the home NE game and was outstanding at NE.

 

 

[Airseven]

3 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Way too early for that.  He has another 3 seasons, at least, before Beane would even let that thought cross his mind.  

 

I'd clean house well before I got rid of Allen.  That's for sure. 

If Beane is still GM in 3 years, the roster may not be salvageable regardless.

[SCBills]

Was driving this AM and the morning show had some honestly great points...

 

1)  Stop referring to Dorsey as a rookie OC.  Rookie OC's don't have any tape on them... until they do.  About halfway through the season teams started to figure out Dorsey's tendencies and we've been stuck in the mud ever since, putting up points by sheer talent.

 

2)  Is Allen not being told to take what the defense gives him/protect himself, or is he not listening to the coaches?   If Allen won't allow himself to be coached by the OC, the OC has to go.  Not fair to Dorsey, but it is what it is.  Can't have an OC who Allen refuses to listen to.  

[The Firebaugh Kid]

11 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I wasn’t worried about him until he tried to leap 7 yards for the first through 3 Jets defenders. 

I was going INSANE after that play. What an idiot, I'm sorry. He turned the idiot meter up to 10 yesterday a few times, and it cost them the game, 100%. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

10 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Yes. I want him to slide there. I want him to play smart football.

 

On the INT to Diggs he had a clear running path to the 1st also. He just wasn’t very smart.

The 2nd INT, 3rd and 2 I think, Diggs was open short, would’ve been a 1st. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, TheyCallMeAndy said:

The 2nd INT, 3rd and 2 I think, Diggs was open short, would’ve been a 1st. 

I can understand missing Diggs because he was likely 3rd or 4th in the progression. He had Kincaid open immediately. But I’m guessing Gabe Davis was WR1 on this play, Kincaid the 2nd read. Allen never got to Kincaid. 

[UKBillFan]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I can understand missing Diggs because he was likely 3rd or 4th in the progression. He had Kincaid open immediately. But I’m guessing Gabe Davis was WR1 on this play, Kincaid the 2nd read. Allen never got to Kincaid. 

 

If I'm thinking of the right interception, I don't think the read was necessarily a bad one, but the throw was and that's what's led to the turnover. And, of course, Kincaid was a much safer option.

[bkep32]

Crazy numbers

[Johnnycage46]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Wow the knives have really come out after Allen has a terrible game. For only the 2nd time in the last 3+ seasons (2020,2021,2022 & 2023) you can lay a loss directly on Allen.  The other being the Jacksonville game. There isn't a QB in the NFL over the last 5 years who hasn't had games like this and that includes Mahomes & Burrow.

 

I guess you have to ignore that the hype about the Jet's defense was real.  They're either the best or 2nd best D in the NFL.

 

Allen was very bad last night.  But so was Burrow & Watson and Mahomes was average.  Even the best will have nights like last night.  Get back to me with the venom if after 5 games Allen plays like that in 3 of them and the Bills are 1 - 4.  Right now this thread is a massive overreaction.

 

While I agree in principal our O line isn't close to being good enough to do what the Eagles do.

 

 

He gift-wrapped both the Vikings and Jets losses last year with his turnovers.  And, regardless of the injuries in the 1st Miami game, he flubbed a wide-open TD on 4th down.  All three losses last year, he played a huge role in.

4 minutes ago, bkep32 said:

Crazy numbers

 

Yeah, those are awful numbers.  Not sure what happened to him since last year but it's a mess.

[CincyBillsFan]

Just now, Johnnycage46 said:

 

He gift-wrapped both the Vikings and Jets losses last year with his turnovers.  And, regardless of the injuries in the 1st Miami game, he flubbed a wide-open TD on 4th down.  All three losses last year, he played a huge role in.

I disagree.  IMO this is wrong headed thinking about what constitutes losing a game.  You look at the play in the whole game and you add up the plusses & minuses.  The expectation for Allen appears to be that if he plays less then great the loss is on him.  It's like saying that a FG kicker that nails 5 FG's including 2 of over 50 yards lost the game because he missed a 40 yarder in OT that would have won the game.

 

I agree that Allen's poor play was not compensated by his great play against the Jets in their first game last season. 

 

But against the Vikings Allen had 414 total yards, 1 TD & 3 TO's. Not a great game by any measure but more then good enough to win if the D doesn't let a guy run off tackle for an 82 yard TD with Buffalo up 27 - 10 and a D doesn't allow the Vikes to covert a 4th & 18.

 

As for the Miami game - you have to be kidding.  Allen was under center in those brutal conditions to take 99 snaps.  He had 447 total yards and 2 TD's with only 1 TO.  He played great against Miami even though he missed a TD throw late.

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

He has seemingly regressed to 2019/Texans Playoff Josh Allen.

 

He is definitely NOT the same guy that spent his first 3 offseasons totally focused on improving every detail of his game.

 

It's like he did the work to be "good enough", and then dropped it completely, even though he wasnt all the way to the promised land yet.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I can understand missing Diggs because he was likely 3rd or 4th in the progression. He had Kincaid open immediately. But I’m guessing Gabe Davis was WR1 on this play, Kincaid the 2nd read. Allen never got to Kincaid. 

 

I believe it was a high/low concept where Allen was reading the CB. The CB cheated towards Kincaid so he threw it over him to Davis. It was a quick read and throw. The problem is Davis ran a really lazy route which gave Whitehead an easy read on the ball, and Allen didn't give enough respect to Whitehead's ability to get back into the play. But I can live with that interception.

 

The much bigger concern is when Allen is running into pressure, escaping clean pockets, not throwing the ball to open receivers in his field of vision, and launching the ball downfield into double coverage multiple times in one game. All of those mistakes are a signal that he was not playing with any level of calm. He was too hyped up and puked all over himself as a result. It's honestly embarrassing. He has all the physical tools a QB could want but he and the coaches need to find a way to get him in the right state of mind from the start of the game to the end. It's like he is starting every play thinking about his escape route instead of thinking about the play and the defense, which leads to numerous mental mistakes.

[Sestak4ever]

It appears that teams are going to try to make Josh beat them from the pocket, not allowing him to roll out or create running lanes when everyone is covered.  It looked like the Jets contained the ends to keep Josh between the tackles. In order for him to succeed against that strategy he will need to take the quick release passes and settle for 5 - 6 yard gains, which is not a bad thing. We started way too many drives last night with negative first down plays, whether they were runs tackled behind the line or stupid penalties.

[Billl]

3 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Allen had an overall good game against the Dolphins in the playoffs not great but solid if you go by the numbers.

He also threw two interceptions and fumbled three times in that game.  He was the only reason Miami was able to keep it competitive.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Billl

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

He also threw two interceptions and fumbled three times in that game.  He was the only reason Miami was able to keep it competitive.

No he didn't.  The game I was clearly referring to was the Saturday night match up that essentially won the division.  In that game Allen was brilliant rescuing the Bills from a poor defensive performance that saw the Fish take a 29 - 21 4th quarter lead.  Allen threw for 304 yards & 4 TD's and rushed for another 77 yards giving him 381 total yards and NO TO's.

 

And for crying out loud I wish the Allen haters would quit lying by omission when it comes to fumbles.  The playoff game you're referring to Allen lost 1 fumble.  Don't say he had 2 INT's and 3 fumbles when he lost only ONE.  He had 3 TO's that's the honest and correct way to describe it.

 

 

[Mango]

I just saw a tweet from Nick Wright that Allen is averaging about 2 turnovers per game from the start of last season.

[UKBillFan]

3 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

No he didn't.  The game I was clearly referring to was the Saturday night match up that essentially won the division.  In that game Allen was brilliant rescuing the Bills from a poor defensive performance that saw the Fish take a 29 - 21 4th quarter lead.  Allen threw for 304 yards & 4 TD's and rushed for another 77 yards giving him 381 total yards and NO TO's.

 

And for crying out loud I wish the Allen haters would quit lying by omission when it comes to fumbles.  The playoff game you're referring to Allen lost 1 fumble.  Don't say he had 2 INT's and 3 fumbles when he lost only ONE.  He had 3 TO's that's the honest and correct way to describe it.

 

 

 

Sorry, but have to correct you here.  Billl quoted you when you said, "Allen had an overall good game against the Dolphins in the playoffs not great but solid if you go by the numbers.", so the game you're referring to is the Play Off game rather than Week 14, when he was excellent.

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

No he didn't.  The game I was clearly referring to was the Saturday night match up that essentially won the division.  In that game Allen was brilliant rescuing the Bills from a poor defensive performance that saw the Fish take a 29 - 21 4th quarter lead.  Allen threw for 304 yards & 4 TD's and rushed for another 77 yards giving him 381 total yards and NO TO's.

 

And for crying out loud I wish the Allen haters would quit lying by omission when it comes to fumbles.  The playoff game you're referring to Allen lost 1 fumble.  Don't say he had 2 INT's and 3 fumbles when he lost only ONE.  He had 3 TO's that's the honest and correct way to describe it.

 

 

 

To be fair, fumbles and fumbles lost are 2 different stats. And fact is, he did fumble 3 times. Even if he recovered 2 of them it's still worth mentioning because it does give detail on his ball protection.

[Colorado]

I think he's been average since the second half of Green Bay last year. He's won some games and played well in some, but the fact remains he's a turnover machine. 

 

Since the second half of that Green Bay game: 

22 TDs Passing

6 TDs Rushing 

16 Ints

12 fumbles/5 lost. 

 

So in his last 13 games: 

28 TDS 

21 Turnovers

 

That's brutal and a hard way to get any consistency on offense. 

[Low Positive]

Just now, Colorado said:

I think he's been average since the second half of Green Bay last year. He's won some games and played well in some, but the fact remains he's a turnover machine. 

 

Since the second half of that Green Bay game: 

22 TDs Passing

6 TDs Rushing 

16 Ints

12 fumbles/5 lost. 

 

So in his last 13 games: 

28 TDS 

21 Turnovers

 

That's brutal and a hard way to get any consistency on offense. 

And the reason that I'm so sad this afternoon is that I don't think that it can be fixed. He's careless with the football and doesn't read the defenses properly. 

[CincyBillsFan]

4 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

To be fair, fumbles and fumbles lost are 2 different stats. And fact is, he did fumble 3 times. Even if he recovered 2 of them it's still worth mentioning because it does give detail on his ball protection.

No it's not fair.  When you pair total fumbles with INT's you are trying to mislead people.  An INT is a turnover a fumble may or may be a TO. Allen LOST one fumble that day and had 2 INT's which equals 3 TO's.  Any other way to describe it is lying IMO.  If someone wants to talk fumbles and argue that total fumbles are bad, do it and show us the data. But the way it was presented was meant to make people think Allen committed FIVE TO's.

 

 

[Billl]

9 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

No he didn't.  The game I was clearly referring to was the Saturday night match up that essentially won the division.  In that game Allen was brilliant rescuing the Bills from a poor defensive performance that saw the Fish take a 29 - 21 4th quarter lead.  Allen threw for 304 yards & 4 TD's and rushed for another 77 yards giving him 381 total yards and NO TO's.

 

And for crying out loud I wish the Allen haters would quit lying by omission when it comes to fumbles.  The playoff game you're referring to Allen lost 1 fumble.  Don't say he had 2 INT's and 3 fumbles when he lost only ONE.  He had 3 TO's that's the honest and correct way to describe it.

 

 

So it's somehow not as bad of a play if your teammate happens to fall on the ball you fumbled?  Josh didn't recover any fumbles himself, so it's not like he was responsible for fixing his own mistake.  That's like saying the pass he threw yesterday that hit Mosley in the chest wasn't a bad play because Mosley dropped it.

 

Fumbling 3 times in a playoff game is worth taking note of whether you care to admit it or not.  It's also worth nothing that Allen lost the ball on another play last night, but it was ruled that his forward progress was stopped. 

 

He has a massive issue with ball security.  That's not exactly a secret.

8 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

Sorry, but have to correct you here.  Billl quoted you when you said, "Allen had an overall good game against the Dolphins in the playoffs not great but solid if you go by the numbers.", so the game you're referring to is the Play Off game rather than Week 14, when he was excellent.

In fairness, I edited my original post because I quoted the wrong piece of Cincy's post initially.

[CincyBillsFan]

10 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

Sorry, but have to correct you here.  Billl quoted you when you said, "Allen had an overall good game against the Dolphins in the playoffs not great but solid if you go by the numbers.", so the game you're referring to is the Play Off game rather than Week 14, when he was excellent.

My bad.  I misread the post.  I'm getting whacked from all sides today so it's easy to get confused.

 

3 minutes ago, Billl said:

So it's somehow not as bad of a play if your teammate happens to fall on the ball you fumbled?  Josh didn't recover any fumbles himself, so it's not like he was responsible for fixing his own mistake.  That's like saying the pass he threw yesterday that hit Mosley in the chest wasn't a bad play because Mosley dropped it.

 

Fumbling 3 times in a playoff game is worth taking note of whether you care to admit it or not.  It's also worth nothing that Allen lost the ball on another play last night, but it was ruled that his forward progress was stopped. 

 

He has a massive issue with ball security.  That's not exactly a secret.

In fairness, I edited my original post because I quoted the wrong piece of Cincy's post initially.

Thanks for admitting that.  I was about to apologize to you.  I thought I saw what I read.

 

 

[MJS]

Maybe he drank too much of his own kool-aid? Not sure.

 

He certainly is not playing with a cool head. He has happy feet and is continually looking to escape the pocket regardless of pressure. He is playing too frenetic.

 

He needs to become a more cerebral QB. We've seen him do it, which is the frustrating thing.

 

Hopefully we see a more cautious Allen going forward, even if that means his production takes a dip for awhile. Once he learns to take care of the football he can start taking a few more risks again and get his swagger back. But he needs to be seriously reigned in. Hopefully Dorsey can que up some easy button plays for him.

 

As for Dorsey, I just don't know. I'm not going to pretend to know. All I can judge is what I see the players do. I know there were a few play calls I didn't like, but that happens every game for every team.

[DrDawkinstein]

8 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

No it's not fair.  When you pair total fumbles with INT's you are trying to mislead people.  An INT is a turnover a fumble may or may be a TO. Allen LOST one fumble that day and had 2 INT's which equals 3 TO's.  Any other way to describe it is lying IMO.  If someone wants to talk fumbles and argue that total fumbles are bad, do it and show us the data. But the way it was presented was meant to make people think Allen committed FIVE TO's.

 

 

 

Bold is true, but also misleading through omission. "He had 2 INTs and 3 Fumbles for 3 total turnovers" is the most truthful/accurate statement.

 

If all youre talking about is turnovers, sure. But if we're talking about Allen's erratic play and loose ball control, then tell the whole story.

[CincyBillsFan]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Bold is true, but also misleading through omission. "He had 2 INTs and 3 Fumbles for 3 total turnovers" is the most truthful/accurate statement.

 

If all youre talking about is turnovers, sure. But if we're talking about Allen's erratic play and loose ball control, then tell the whole story.

All I'm talking about is TO's.  That's a clear metric. 

[oldmanfan]

15 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

We have a problem.

 

 

 

Had two guys he could have flipped the ball to for a first down

[Royale with Cheese]

I'm hoping this is a real wake up call for Allen.

He's had bad games and turnovers before but last night was embarrassing.

 

He seems like a guy that when embarrassed, the fire comes back.  He doesn't have fire anymore.

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

Or he’ll crawl into a shell and becoming check down Charlie… I think the constant screaming at him to get down and slide, and be smarter is ***** with his head. 

 

You don't have to go to one extreme to the other.

 

Allen doesn't have the mindset to be a check down guy.  He just needs better situational awareness.
He was throwing the ball around last night like we were down by two scores late in the 4th.  

[TheyCallMeAndy]

33 minutes ago, Colorado said:

I think he's been average since the second half of Green Bay last year. He's won some games and played well in some, but the fact remains he's a turnover machine. 

 

Since the second half of that Green Bay game: 

22 TDs Passing

6 TDs Rushing 

16 Ints

12 fumbles/5 lost. 

 

So in his last 13 games: 

28 TDS 

21 Turnovers

 

That's brutal and a hard way to get any consistency on offense. 

Thank you for posting that. 
 

2nd half of the GB game is when everything changed. 

[Haslett_Stomp]

4 hours ago, SCBills said:

Was driving this AM and the morning show had some honestly great points...

 

1)  Stop referring to Dorsey as a rookie OC.  Rookie OC's don't have any tape on them... until they do.  About halfway through the season teams started to figure out Dorsey's tendencies and we've been stuck in the mud ever since, putting up points by sheer talent.

 

2)  Is Allen not being told to take what the defense gives him/protect himself, or is he not listening to the coaches?   If Allen won't allow himself to be coached by the OC, the OC has to go.  Not fair to Dorsey, but it is what it is.  Can't have an OC who Allen refuses to listen to.  

 

^ this.  Dorsey reminds me of the first-time manager who struggles managing those who once were his/her peers.  Maybe Dorsey and Allen became too buddy buddy when Dorsey was the QB coach and now he (Dorsey) can't or won't rein in Allen.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Haslett_Stomp