Bills practice Thurs 8/17 starting with McD interview

[Beck Water]

OK, so the Bills posted these highlights on their web page now.

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/camp-highlight-taylor-rapp-diving-interception

 

They also have some stills of this.  #37 38 39 if the links don't work
https://www.buffalobills.com/photos/photos-2023-buffalo-bills-training-camp-day-16#4d7d51f1-2c1c-4a0a-b730-381769b81e7a
https://www.buffalobills.com/photos/photos-2023-buffalo-bills-training-camp-day-16#b15e2b6b-3d8f-4b64-86e6-5fba9a7b42cf

https://www.buffalobills.com/photos/photos-2023-buffalo-bills-training-camp-day-16#10395155-a36b-47bc-b5d3-e88f1da32c0c

Gilliam just walks away, but you can see where the D is rocking the party and another offensive player might throw a little opinion in there.

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/camp-highlight-josh-allen-connects-with-deonte-harty-for-the-long-touchdown

 

bonus Gabe Davis TD

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/camp-highlight-josh-allen-connects-with-gabe-davis-for-a-touchdown

32 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

Air Raid has it too.  I'm going to guess it was a bills release/leak.

 

 

 

Her reply:

 

Not sure what that means though as it sounds like it's not from the Bills.

 

Twas.  It's on the Bills website now.

[Beck Water]

30 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

It’s possible Isabella earns a “starting” spot on this roster due to speed, work ethic and quickly developing trust with Josh

 

Diggs

Davis

Slot Committee: (Kincaid) Sherfield/Isabella

Harty can lineup anywhere

Shakir and Shorter fighting for a spot

Shavers to PS

1 of Ateman, Patmon, K. Johnson to PS

 

personally I’d like to keep 7WR

 

 

 

Diggs

Davis

 

Sherfield / Harty / Isabella

(perhaps a rotation like the DLine)

 

Shakir

Shorter

 

Plausible take overall.

 

I don't think we can keep 7 WR.  When we did that before, we did it at the expense of a 3 TE.  If we want a TE to be a significant part of the gameplan, we'd best have at least 3, and Morris has been doing a good camp.

 

I don't see what Shorter has done to fight for a spot.  We'll see on Saturday I guess.  And because Shakir has shown flashes on actual Sundays, I don't think we give up on him yet.  It's not impossible that all the Isabella talk from McD is tactical, and there in part to put a fear-o'-whupass into Shakir and get him to elevate, just as some speculate the MLB talk from McD is there to send a messsage to Dodson.

 

I think Shorter is going to wind up on IR and we'll keep 2 out of Shavers, Ateman, Patmon on PS if we can - trying to read the tea leaves Ateman and Patmon may have the edge over Shavers.

[Fan in Chicago]

1 hour ago, The Wiz said:

 

Allen frequently reminds me of the X-Files episode "The Unnatural". 

[Chaos]

10 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Him saying he’s concerned about MLB made me upset. Huge failure.

Earlier this year he said "you can't replace Edmunds".  I am concerned he just can't past that. 

29 minutes ago, BananaB said:

I wouldn’t cut Shakir for Sherfield. Who has the better chance to become a consistent contributor moving forward? Probably not the guy in his 5th year on his 4th team. 

Shakir was a fith round pick.  People set high expectations for him. Shorter was fifth round pick.  People are setting low expectations for him.  Seems like both play about like you might expect a fifth round pick to play. 

[scuba guy]

1 hour ago, The Wiz said:

 

Yup I heard it right here his elbow hurts.

 

I don't care what people say about the other qbs in the league only 1 qb can mKe that throw

[CSBill]

7 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I apologize to everyone that’s been talking about MLB all offseason. I wasn’t worried because I thought they had a plan. Turns out there was no plan, just hope.

“Hope is the cruelest of all virtues.” (Harlan Coben).

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by CSBill

[Warcodered]

38 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

OK, so the Bills posted these highlights on their web page now.

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/camp-highlight-taylor-rapp-diving-interception

 

They also have some stills of this.  #37 38 39 if the links don't work
https://www.buffalobills.com/photos/photos-2023-buffalo-bills-training-camp-day-16#4d7d51f1-2c1c-4a0a-b730-381769b81e7a
https://www.buffalobills.com/photos/photos-2023-buffalo-bills-training-camp-day-16#b15e2b6b-3d8f-4b64-86e6-5fba9a7b42cf

https://www.buffalobills.com/photos/photos-2023-buffalo-bills-training-camp-day-16#10395155-a36b-47bc-b5d3-e88f1da32c0c

Gilliam just walks away, but you can see where the D is rocking the party and another offensive player might throw a little opinion in there.

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/camp-highlight-josh-allen-connects-with-deonte-harty-for-the-long-touchdown

 

bonus Gabe Davis TD

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/camp-highlight-josh-allen-connects-with-gabe-davis-for-a-touchdown

 

Twas.  It's on the Bills website now.

Yep now with sound.

 

 

[Shaw66]

31 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'd like to re-frame this for you slightly - and maybe I should say up front that while I'm the one who entered the tweets about McDermott's comments into today's thread, it was in the spirit of helping my fellow Bills fans find coverage, not because I'm in MLB panic mode.

 

Beane does attempt to fill needs, true.  But he knows, with cap limitations and a limited number of picks, he can't fill every need with the same quality of players.  He's talked about he and the coaches "valuing" positions and players after the season - that means adjusting, based upon experience, what priority they put on each position as far as draft resources and cap $$.

 

And sometimes he makes mistakes.  He acknowledged after the fact that he could have and should have done more for the OL in 2018.  I think if you gave him a few whiskeys, he might admit that the OL and WR we took into last season were not as good as he expected pre-season.  On OL, we were counting on Brown to take a 2nd season step and on Saffold to return a bit closer to the form he had with Kromer in 2018 or so.  Did Not Happen.  At WR, he was counting on one of McKenzie, Crowder, and Shakir to seize the day and take over in the slot (or give capable slot play by committee); he was counting on Davis to build on his 2021 season.  Did Not Happen.

 

So there Beane sits, with a pile of needs and a pile of resources that's too small to fill them all at a high level, and a need to prioritize and make decisions.

 

I think it's pretty clear that Beane and the rest of the Bills Brain Trust decided that the priority this off-season would go to upgrading receiver and OL, and after that DL.  Now we may disagree with what he did - we may think that a rookie TE taken in the 1st isn't likely to be as immediately impactful as we hope, that Hardy was a risky high-ceiling low floor move because of his injury history, and that O'Cyrus Torrence in the draft and McGovern and Edwards in FA aren't enough on the OL.   We may side-eye the age at safety.  Maybe the moves he made to fill his priorities weren't the right ones.  Time will tell.

 

But at MLB, I don't think Beane thought he "had the position covered" any more than he thought he had a good OL in 2018.  But he hoped he had enough to get by.  I think, like last year at WR, he hoped that between 2 3rd round picks, a backup yearning to start, and a canny vet, he'd have enough.

 

And I do agree with - was it you, Shaw? I forget - the viewpoint that perhaps the Bills were hoping for Bernard to take a step he hasn't shown yet, physically and mentally. 

 

But just as in 2022 with WR, I don't think Beane doesn't see a need at MLB.  I just think he couldn't do everything, and he hopes he's done enough.

I agree with this, to a point.   But I think you're missing an important point, which is that one can argue with how he filled holes, but for the past few years Beane has always taken a shot at filling perceived holes.   It's what I said earlier - he's consistently gone after offensive linemen where he sees a need, running backs, receivers, DBs.  He had a need at backup safety, and he got Rapp.  The point is, we can argue about the bodies he chooses to put in holes, but he always puts a body in it.  The Bills haven't gone into any of the last three seasons without a hole in the lineup. 

 

Yes, the cap and the draft limit what he can do - every GM has more positions he'd like to upgrade than he has resources to do it.  So, he makes choices.   Sometimes, because he doesn't nave draft capital, he'll fill a hole in the line with a Feliciano or a Saffold.  But the point is, he always does something. 

 

At middle linebacker, he did nothing.  Eventually, he "added" Klein.   From day one they admitted that Williams was not likely to be the solution, at least not this season.  So, Beane did nothing.   That can only mean that he McDermott believe that what they had was good enough.   As always, people can argue about the judgment that they had what they needed, but I don't think it's arguable that Beane just ran out of money before he got to the middle linebacker.  If they needed someone, he would have gotten someone.   The Bills signed Leonard Floyd, Shane Ray, Taylor Rapp, and Poona Ford to a top-five defense, and Beane went after NO ONE to play the middle. 

 

That, in turn, leads to the conclusion that they don't think linebacker is a priority position.   That doesn't mean that they'd say the position isn't important.  All positions are important.  But in relative terms, middle linebacker is the position that they think they fill with a good athlete, but not one where they need a great football player.  

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, 3rdand12 said:

Good thorough post !

 But didn't McD start this LB thing off by mentioning some "concerns " at the pressers? LOL 

sorry could not help meself from that 

Yes.  As I've always said, no one is always right.  Their judgment could be wrong, and it often is.  They clearly blew it on Saffold, for example, and the Bills played last season weak at guard.  

 

But the fact that McDermott said he has concerns at middle linebacker after one preseason game doesn't mean that his judgment was wrong.  It means his middle linebackers aren't playing well enough yet.  He knew coming into the season he had work to do on the middle linebacker, because unlike every other position on the defense, his middle linebacker, whoever wins the job, will have had no experience playing the position in the NFL.  Of course he's concerned.  

 

Let's see what happens over the next six weeks.  If Beane makes a desperate acquisition to fill a hole in the middle, we'll know that they made a mistake in the middle.  I'd be surprised if that happens.  

[BigAl2526]

I suspect that at the start of the season middle linebacker is going to remain unsettled and that several players will continue to get a crack at it, possibly depending on the opponent.  During that time, I expect Dorian Williams will continue studying the MLB position, maybe getting practice reps as the opposition MLB in practice.  At some time during the season he might get a chance to start.  It's not going to happen for the opener versus the Jets though. 

[Beck Water]

25 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with this, to a point.   But I think you're missing an important point, which is that one can argue with how he filled holes, but for the past few years Beane has always taken a shot at filling perceived holes.   It's what I said earlier - he's consistently gone after offensive linemen where he sees a need, running backs, receivers, DBs.  He had a need at backup safety, and he got Rapp.  The point is, we can argue about the bodies he chooses to put in holes, but he always puts a body in it.  The Bills haven't gone into any of the last three seasons without a hole in the lineup. 

 

Yes, the cap and the draft limit what he can do - every GM has more positions he'd like to upgrade than he has resources to do it.  So, he makes choices.   Sometimes, because he doesn't nave draft capital, he'll fill a hole in the line with a Feliciano or a Saffold.  But the point is, he always does something. 

 

At middle linebacker, he did nothing.  Eventually, he "added" Klein.   From day one they admitted that Williams was not likely to be the solution, at least not this season.  So, Beane did nothing.   That can only mean that he McDermott believe that what they had was good enough.   As always, people can argue about the judgment that they had what they needed, but I don't think it's arguable that Beane just ran out of money before he got to the middle linebacker.  If they needed someone, he would have gotten someone.   The Bills signed Leonard Floyd, Shane Ray, Taylor Rapp, and Poona Ford to a top-five defense, and Beane went after NO ONE to play the middle. 

 

That, in turn, leads to the conclusion that they don't think linebacker is a priority position.   That doesn't mean that they'd say the position isn't important.  All positions are important.  But in relative terms, middle linebacker is the position that they think they fill with a good athlete, but not one where they need a great football player.  

 

Well, I think some would argue that by drafting LB in the 3rd round in back to back drafts, by re-signing AJ Klein as a FA, and by re-signing Tyrel Dodson this spring, Beane did take a shot at filling a perceived hole at LB.  You can toss in Baylon Spector as a late round flyer and Travin Howard as a talented, but oft-injured free agent as part of his "taking a shot at filling a perceived hole".  That seems to be 4-6 "shots on goal", not nothing.

 

It's actually the same type of shots Beane took with regard to filling the hole at slot receiver last season IMO - he had a guy on the team who had shown flashes but also shown need for improvement (McKenzie), he drafted a receiver they liked in the later rounds (Shakir), he signed a free agent who had shown the ability to play decently from the slot at times (Jameison Crowder). 

 

How do you see Beane's need-filling efforts at LB as substantively different from last season's need-filling efforts at slot WR?  If Beane felt slot receiver wasn't a priority position, why had he signed Beasley in 2020?  If Beane felt MLB isn't an important position, why did he throw a 1st round pick at Edmunds in 2018?

Edited August 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[snamsnoops]

2 hours ago, The Wiz said:

 

Or a WIZzard!

[Beck Water]

54 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Earlier this year he said "you can't replace Edmunds".  I am concerned he just can't past that. 

Shakir was a fith round pick.  People set high expectations for him. Shorter was fifth round pick.  People are setting low expectations for him.  Seems like both play about like you might expect a fifth round pick to play. 

 

Well, I could be wrong but....I thought last off- and pre-season, Shakir was flashing quite a lot, and drawing a lot of mentions.

 

Have not heard much out of Shorter.

 

I think that influences the expectations.

[BananaB]

53 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Earlier this year he said "you can't replace Edmunds".  I am concerned he just can't past that. 

Shakir was a fith round pick.  People set high expectations for him. Shorter was fifth round pick.  People are setting low expectations for him.  Seems like both play about like you might expect a fifth round pick to play. 

Maybe they’ll end up like Sherfield with 60 catches in 4 years. I’m crossing my fingers. 

[vincec]

11 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They’ll likely go with AJ Klein as the failsafe. Hopefully Klein has tread left. Dodson doesn’t look capable of being the run downs MLB. 

I thought playing the run was supposed to be Dodson’s strength. He was terrible against the pass last season.

[Chaos]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Well, I could be wrong but....I thought last off- and pre-season, Shakir was flashing quite a lot, and drawing a lot of mentions.

 

Have not heard much out of Shorter.

 

I think that influences the expectations.

There are great players from #1 overall picks to UDFA's in NFL history.  But there is a pretty strong correlation between draft position and NFL success.  Probably "flashes" are less useful for setting expectations than draft position. Probably. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

4 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

While it's true that linebackers have plenty of responsibility covering passes on the short zone and defensive backs are supposed to provide run support,  There is no way that DBs averaging no more than 200 lbs are going to be able to take on run blockers and make plays tackling running backs the way that a quality linebacker will, nor will a linebacker be able to provide sticky coverage on an elusive receiver the way a defensive back can.  By playing what is essentially a "dime" defense (six defensive backs and one linebacker, a defense can be vulnerable to offenses getting big chunk plays by running the ball on "obvious passing downs."

Safety meaning free and strong and LBs meaning middle and outside being  interchangeable. Not a safety playing LB or a LB playing safety 

[HiMark]

Okay, so a lot of the Mafia was down on Edmunds, not enough splash plays, blah...and a lot of other of the Mafia were pretty glad to have his talent, speed, size, length, 5PD's in one game last year i think, etc.  And he got paid more than we wanted to match, so he's gone.

So now, we are going to be less effective from that position, because we went from a top 5 guy to NOT a top 5 guy.  But the rest of this D is so solid, that we will be able to prop-up a mediocre, replacement level signal caller in the middle.  Just remember the context if whoever plays is good, meh, bad, or even 'splashy.'

In order; Dodson, because he has done it before, and has earned it by holding off challengers; Bernard, because they value his speed, and hopefully he gets well; Klein, because performance is important (but I still don't think he makes the 53); Spector, because he can evidently do it, but perhaps at a purely replacement level; and Williams, who can afford to learn from the bench for quite a while, but could still end up the guy this year.

ALL of them have durability issues compared to Edmunds (cept maybe Klein) so we may see plenty of them.

I also think no way we bring someone else in, because of the signal calling aspect of the position. 

58 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with this, to a point.   But I think you're missing an important point, which is that one can argue with how he filled holes, but for the past few years Beane has always taken a shot at filling perceived holes.   It's what I said earlier - he's consistently gone after offensive linemen where he sees a need, running backs, receivers, DBs.  He had a need at backup safety, and he got Rapp.  The point is, we can argue about the bodies he chooses to put in holes, but he always puts a body in it.  The Bills haven't gone into any of the last three seasons without a hole in the lineup. 

 

Yes, the cap and the draft limit what he can do - every GM has more positions he'd like to upgrade than he has resources to do it.  So, he makes choices.   Sometimes, because he doesn't nave draft capital, he'll fill a hole in the line with a Feliciano or a Saffold.  But the point is, he always does something. 

 

At middle linebacker, he did nothing.  Eventually, he "added" Klein.   From day one they admitted that Williams was not likely to be the solution, at least not this season.  So, Beane did nothing.   That can only mean that he McDermott believe that what they had was good enough.   As always, people can argue about the judgment that they had what they needed, but I don't think it's arguable that Beane just ran out of money before he got to the middle linebacker.  If they needed someone, he would have gotten someone.   The Bills signed Leonard Floyd, Shane Ray, Taylor Rapp, and Poona Ford to a top-five defense, and Beane went after NO ONE to play the middle. 

 

That, in turn, leads to the conclusion that they don't think linebacker is a priority position.   That doesn't mean that they'd say the position isn't important.  All positions are important.  But in relative terms, middle linebacker is the position that they think they fill with a good athlete, but not one where they need a great football player.  

Beane might be on to something with this rookie TE.

[ColoradoBills]

3 minutes ago, HiMark said:

Okay, so a lot of the Mafia was down on Edmunds, not enough splash plays, blah...and a lot of other of the Mafia were pretty glad to have his talent, speed, size, length, 5PD's in one game last year i think, etc.  And he got paid more than we wanted to match, so he's gone.

So now, we are going to be less effective from that position, because we went from a top 5 guy to NOT a top 5 guy.  But the rest of this D is so solid, that we will be able to prop-up a mediocre, replacement level signal caller in the middle.  Just remember the context if whoever plays is good, meh, bad, or even 'splashy.'

In order; Dodson, because he has done it before, and has earned it by holding off challengers; Bernard, because they value his speed, and hopefully he gets well; Klein, because performance is important (but I still don't think he makes the 53); Spector, because he can evidently do it, but perhaps at a purely replacement level; and Williams, who can afford to learn from the bench for quite a while, but could still end up the guy this year.

ALL of them have durability issues compared to Edmunds (cept maybe Klein) so we may see plenty of them.

I also think no way we bring someone else in, because of the signal calling aspect of the position. 

 

Totally agree with your bolded point.

[HiMark]

1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Totally agree with your bolded point.

Ooh, sorry about the bold, so embarrassing!

[ColoradoBills]

2 minutes ago, HiMark said:

Ooh, sorry about the bold, so embarrassing!

 

I bolded your statement about no one else being brought in.

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, HiMark said:

Ooh, sorry about the bold, so embarrassing!

 

I think our man from Colorado bolded it in his response so you'd know what point he was referring to.

[HiMark]

Just now, Simon said:

 

I think our man from Colorado bolded it in his response so you'd know what point he was referring to.

Oh, so now I'm NOT supposed to be embarrassed?

I'm afraid next I'll get  the 'get the papers' treatment

[Simon]

Just now, HiMark said:

Oh, so now I'm NOT supposed to be embarrassed?

I'm afraid next I'll get  the 'get the papers' treatment

 

You've got to do waaaayyyyyy worse to be embarrassed in this forum.

We've set a very high (or low) bar. 🤙

[Beck Water]

47 minutes ago, Chaos said:

There are great players from #1 overall picks to UDFA's in NFL history.  But there is a pretty strong correlation between draft position and NFL success.  Probably "flashes" are less useful for setting expectations than draft position. Probably. 

 

Right, but in the case of Shakir and Shorter - the draft position is exactly the same.  That was the question - why was Shakir being kind of overhyped last preseason, while Shorter is not being talked about and kind of talked down.

 

Since they were both taken in the 5th, the talk may be related to what they showed in TC/preseason.  I remember a lot of chatter about how smooooooth and natural Shakir's routes looked and how he had nice soft hands.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[Fan in Chicago]

25 minutes ago, HiMark said:

Okay, so a lot of the Mafia was down o

ALL of them have durability issues compared to Edmunds (cept maybe Klein) so we may see plenty of them.

 

In related news ...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsportschicago.com/nfl/chicago-bears/bears-detail-how-tremaine-edmunds-is-keeping-up-without-practice/501196/%3famp=1

 

"Missed practices are starting to mount for middle linebacker Tremaine Edmunds. We haven’t seen the prized Bears free agent signing on the practice field since Aug. 4 as he deals with an undisclosed injury" 

 

[Solomon Grundy]

12 hours ago, NewEra said:

There’s a big difference between being concerned and being very concerned!

 

 

Same concern he had about Stefon missing practice? 😎

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Same concern he had about Stefon missing practice? 😎

🤷🏻‍♂️ 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

Well, I think some would argue that by drafting LB in the 3rd round in back to back drafts, by re-signing AJ Klein as a FA, and by re-signing Tyrel Dodson this spring, Beane did take a shot at filling a perceived hole at LB.  You can toss in Baylon Spector as a late round flyer and Travin Howard as a talented, but oft-injured free agent as part of his "taking a shot at filling a perceived hole".  That seems to be 4-6 "shots on goal", not nothing.

 

It's actually the same type of shots Beane took with regard to filling the hole at slot receiver last season IMO - he had a guy on the team who had shown flashes but also shown need for improvement (McKenzie), he drafted a receiver they liked in the later rounds (Shakir), he signed a free agent who had shown the ability to play decently from the slot at times (Jameison Crowder). 

 

How do you see Beane's need-filling efforts at LB as substantively different from last season's need-filling efforts at slot WR?  If Beane felt slot receiver wasn't a priority position, why had he signed Beasley in 2020?  If Beane felt MLB isn't an important position, why did he throw a 1st round pick at Edmunds in 2018?

Well, I think you're unwittingly making my argument for me.   I choose to look at the question from the end of the last season.  For the seven months since the season ended, Beane acquire no one new, except Williams, whom they did not expect to have any impact at the position this year.   From that perspective, the Bills did nothing.

 

If, however, I take the broader view that you suggest, that Beane's been working on the problem of replacing Edmunds for a couple of years, then it proves my point that Beane and McDermott don't think the position is very important to defense in comparison to other positions.   Why?  Because while Beame was drafting Elam to be the #2 corner and maybe White's eventual replacement, while he was signing Von Miller and Leonard Floyd and Poona Ford, while he was signing Taylor Rapp, while he was doing all of those things, he acquired only Bernard and Spector.  What better evidence do you need they don't think the position is as important as other positions on the defense.  

 

Throw in, wherever you'd like, the fact that they weren't willing to pay Edmunds.  

 

Any way you choose to look at, what McDermott and Beane have done (or not done) to fortify the position tells us how important they think the position is.  They're willing to let Dodson or Bernard or Spector run around in the middle and attack anything that comes their way.  They have not been willing to spend resources, either cash or picks, to get the kind of player that many fans imagine is necessary in the middle.

[newcam2012]

35 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, I think you're unwittingly making my argument for me.   I choose to look at the question from the end of the last season.  For the seven months since the season ended, Beane acquire no one new, except Williams, whom they did not expect to have any impact at the position this year.   From that perspective, the Bills did nothing.

 

If, however, I take the broader view that you suggest, that Beane's been working on the problem of replacing Edmunds for a couple of years, then it proves my point that Beane and McDermott don't think the position is very important to defense in comparison to other positions.   Why?  Because while Beame was drafting Elam to be the #2 corner and maybe White's eventual replacement, while he was signing Von Miller and Leonard Floyd and Poona Ford, while he was signing Taylor Rapp, while he was doing all of those things, he acquired only Bernard and Spector.  What better evidence do you need they don't think the position is as important as other positions on the defense.  

 

Throw in, wherever you'd like, the fact that they weren't willing to pay Edmunds.  

 

Any way you choose to look at, what McDermott and Beane have done (or not done) to fortify the position tells us how important they think the position is.  They're willing to let Dodson or Bernard or Spector run around in the middle and attack anything that comes their way.  They have not been willing to spend resources, either cash or picks, to get the kind of player that many fans imagine is necessary in the middle.

I don't agree with this take. I absolutely think Beane and McD think the MLB position is important. Why? For several years now, we have been told by Beane and McD how important Edmunds was to the defense. It was a clear and resounding theme year after year.

 

Heck, Beane drafted him as the overall 16th pick in the draft. That has to tell you your thesis is incorrect. 

 

Beane pinned himself behind a wall. He had limited cap space and limited options to fill several holes on the team. His misses have contributed to a void of several holes that needed to be filled. All GMs have misses  He pretty much summed this up in his end of the season presser. Except he left out that his failures  contributed to the situation. Now, add in Elam which looks to be trending in a similar scenario. 

 

In fairness to Beane, no way was Edmunds worth that kind of money. Perhaps, they intended to keep Edmunds at a more fair price. The Bears unexpectedly overpaid for him. I think Beane may have been caught off guard. 

 

Slightly off topic is the resigning of Oliver. I have mixed feelings about it. Ed is decent to good but not elite and not consistent enough. Where was he come playoff time when Von went down? I was slightly surprised the Bills signed him. 

 

Back on topic. I think Beane made a tactical decision. I think he values the MLB and is hoping for a prayer to be answered. None of the current MLBs are starter material. It's a weakness without a doubt! Realistically , there's no other way to see it. The question is can the weakness be mitigated? We are about to see. However, we saw a glimpse of these guys when Edmunds was out. It wasn't pretty. Are we really banking on a McD defensive scheme to hide the problem? That's a really big ask and I seem to think good teams will absolutely exploit the hole. Maybe I'm wrong here. 

 

Now, I do like the offensive moves and the fact that they tried to clearly address the offense. The jury is out if it pans out. Nevertheless , I like that Beane committed to the offense. I think this gives the best chance to win. Maybe that's what you mean by not valuing the MLB? 

 

Sorry for the rant. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by newcam2012

[Dopey]

12 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Why are you getting eyeroll reactions from this? You're 100% correct. They chose to do literally nothing at the position and are now suffering the consequences.

What consequence? We haven’t even started the season yet. 
🙄

[maddenboy]

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Who are the NFL's game-changing middle linebackers?

 

Where is Ray Lewis, Brian Uhrlacher, even a Keuchle?   Defenses don't feature that kind of player any longer. 

i was thinking about what you said here.  And that you might mean it a couple ways.  But i think that player doesnt exist.

 

1)  if you mean "feature" like leather seats or power steering, then maybe bobby wagner is among the last.  a real playmaker.  every single week.   something a team should and would pay extra for, because its nicer.

 

2)  if you mean "feature" like main attraction who the defense shows off,  seems like the league has drifted away.   Not many in the league who fans would pay to watch, and fans of the opponent Hate.   Brian Cox?  Jack Lambert.  Bozworth?  But i guess we tried that with Tremaine Edwards but it didnt work.   Look like tarzan . . .

 

3)  if you mean "feature" like we will change our whole philosophy and scheme to take max advantage that we have this special player (like the patriots with Randy Moss), yeah Kuechly and Ray Lewis and Urlacher.

 

I dont think there are many who qualify anymore as "feature" players nowadays.  Maybe its kinda like running back:  players at the lower levels try their best to play other positions.   Specimens like Patrick Willis, who are actually Great at football, and play MLB, feel extinct.

 

I also dont think that the style of offense nowadays would really allow you to feature him.  its too easy to avoid one guy when you are a passing offense.   No matter what position he plays.  Except DE

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by maddenboy

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

7 hours ago, Dopey said:

What consequence? We haven’t even started the season yet. 
🙄

The consequence of being in a state of concern. That's a worry that could have been avoided.

[oldmanfan]

38 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

The consequence of being in a state of concern. That's a worry that could have been avoided.

How?  I put out a post asking folks like you to tell me your plan, what guy you would have gotten, how you would have fit him under the cap, how it would have affected other positions that may have needed upgrades.  And your response?  crickets.  You're just blowing a lot of hot air.

7 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I don't agree with this take. I absolutely think Beane and McD think the MLB position is important. Why? For several years now, we have been told by Beane and McD how important Edmunds was to the defense. It was a clear and resounding theme year after year.

 

Heck, Beane drafted him as the overall 16th pick in the draft. That has to tell you your thesis is incorrect. 

 

Beane pinned himself behind a wall. He had limited cap space and limited options to fill several holes on the team. His misses have contributed to a void of several holes that needed to be filled. All GMs have misses  He pretty much summed this up in his end of the season presser. Except he left out that his failures  contributed to the situation. Now, add in Elam which looks to be trending in a similar scenario. 

 

In fairness to Beane, no way was Edmunds worth that kind of money. Perhaps, they intended to keep Edmunds at a more fair price. The Bears unexpectedly overpaid for him. I think Beane may have been caught off guard. 

 

Slightly off topic is the resigning of Oliver. I have mixed feelings about it. Ed is decent to good but not elite and not consistent enough. Where was he come playoff time when Von went down? I was slightly surprised the Bills signed him. 

 

Back on topic. I think Beane made a tactical decision. I think he values the MLB and is hoping for a prayer to be answered. None of the current MLBs are starter material. It's a weakness without a doubt! Realistically , there's no other way to see it. The question is can the weakness be mitigated? We are about to see. However, we saw a glimpse of these guys when Edmunds was out. It wasn't pretty. Are we really banking on a McD defensive scheme to hide the problem? That's a really big ask and I seem to think good teams will absolutely exploit the hole. Maybe I'm wrong here. 

 

Now, I do like the offensive moves and the fact that they tried to clearly address the offense. The jury is out if it pans out. Nevertheless , I like that Beane committed to the offense. I think this gives the best chance to win. Maybe that's what you mean by not valuing the MLB? 

 

Sorry for the rant. 

But again the Bills won each game when Dodson started last year.  So clearly it can be "mitigated".  

[Shaw66]

9 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I don't agree with this take. I absolutely think Beane and McD think the MLB position is important. Why? For several years now, we have been told by Beane and McD how important Edmunds was to the defense. It was a clear and resounding theme year after year.

 

Heck, Beane drafted him as the overall 16th pick in the draft. That has to tell you your thesis is incorrect. 

 

Beane pinned himself behind a wall. He had limited cap space and limited options to fill several holes on the team. His misses have contributed to a void of several holes that needed to be filled. All GMs have misses  He pretty much summed this up in his end of the season presser. Except he left out that his failures  contributed to the situation. Now, add in Elam which looks to be trending in a similar scenario. 

 

In fairness to Beane, no way was Edmunds worth that kind of money. Perhaps, they intended to keep Edmunds at a more fair price. The Bears unexpectedly overpaid for him. I think Beane may have been caught off guard. 

 

Slightly off topic is the resigning of Oliver. I have mixed feelings about it. Ed is decent to good but not elite and not consistent enough. Where was he come playoff time when Von went down? I was slightly surprised the Bills signed him. 

 

Back on topic. I think Beane made a tactical decision. I think he values the MLB and is hoping for a prayer to be answered. None of the current MLBs are starter material. It's a weakness without a doubt! Realistically , there's no other way to see it. The question is can the weakness be mitigated? We are about to see. However, we saw a glimpse of these guys when Edmunds was out. It wasn't pretty. Are we really banking on a McD defensive scheme to hide the problem? That's a really big ask and I seem to think good teams will absolutely exploit the hole. Maybe I'm wrong here. 

 

Now, I do like the offensive moves and the fact that they tried to clearly address the offense. The jury is out if it pans out. Nevertheless , I like that Beane committed to the offense. I think this gives the best chance to win. Maybe that's what you mean by not valuing the MLB? 

 

Sorry for the rant. 

That Beane drafted Edmunds is now ancient history.

 

What matters is what Beane's done in the past three years.  Essentially what he did, it appears, is learn from the mistake he made when he drafted Edmunds.  

 

The simple fact is that for the last three seasons, Beane has known that he would have to make a decision about Edmunds.  What he decided is that he wouldn't pay him his value in the market and would let him walk.   He didn't make that decision because he couldn't afford Edmunds.  He couldn't afford Edmunds because he'd already decided he wasn't going to spend a lot of money on a middle linebacker.  How do we know that?   Because he spent his money on every other position on the defense, that's how.   He gave White his money.  He gave Oliver his money.  He paid Taron Johnson.  He paid Poyer.  He paid Von Miller all the money that he could have used to pay Edmunds.  He paid Jones, he paid Settle, he paid Floyd, he paid Ford.   He paid Milano.  He paid every position EXCEPT middle linebacker.   He drafted edge rushers.  He drafted a corner back.   The linebackers he drafted were almost after thoughts. 

 

Beane dedicated essentially no resources to linebacker.   Now, maybe you think he just forgot the position and woke up this June and suddenly realized he didn't have a middle linebacker, but I don't.   Beane's allocation of resources is evidence, clear evidence, of what he thinks about the importance of the position.  There can be no other conclusion.  

 

Beane and McDermott decided they had enough talent to play linebacker this season, so Beane did nothing to upgrade the position.  Whether that decision was good or bad, whether it will bite the Bills or not, can be know only as the season plays out.  

 

People can have opinions now.  They have opinions about Shakier, about Elam, about Torrence, about Allen (not that one, the other one), but those are all just opinions.  Five months from now we'll know better which opinions were correct and which were not.  The same is true about middle linebacker.   Today, anyone's opinion that the position is trainwreck is just that, an opinion.  

 

Beane and McDermott CHOSE the middle linebackers they have.  They chose them for a reason.  I'm prepared to wait and see how this is going to work. 

 

 

[Don Otreply]

15 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

the "prototypical 245 lb MLB", no. 

 

But it's a long step over a steep fall to go from that to "MLB is the least important defender" or "just about any other position is more important"

The middle ground is where the answer lays. 
 

The overt panic being displayed in posts by some folk here is frankly becoming comical,

 

Do these folk really think McDermott is  not aware that Edmunds is no longer on the team, and has zero ideas of what to do about that?  Folk need to get a firm grip on their anxiety meds. The sky is not falling,  

[Beck Water]

21 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Let’s state it properly then in regards to McKenzie.  He sucks as a starting WR in the NFL.  He doesn’t have great hands, doesn’t make tough catches, doesn’t track the deep ball well nullifying some of the value of his speed, he isn’t a consistent route runner, doesn’t catch well in traffic, and he isn’t cerebral on the field.  
 

However, he is a good gadget player and reserve piece to have on the team who can also provide some value as a returner.  However, the fact he isn’t cerebral on the field causes lapses in judgement that can be costly as returner too, so he’s better suited for a backup returner than a primary returner.  
 

He’s a fun guy, I liked having him here, but he was a very poor option as a starting player and was really at his best when used in a more gadget type role.  

 

Obviously you'll have a lot of support for that POV here at TBD and if I take a more moderate position, experience suggests I'll be painted as a fan-boy. 

 

I just don't think it's logical to suggest that a 5'7", 173 late-round pick stays in the league 6 years unless there's more to him than fun-loving gadget guy (or the coaches are mysteriously building a winning, contending team by being stupid, which is another popular viewpoint here at times, but I digress) . 

 

I think the truth is more nuanced.  At times, none of the things you say were true, except the hands; he did body-catch balls consistently.  He made tough catches sometimes.  He tracked the ball and got there sometimes.  He ran solid routes sometimes.  He made the catch in traffic sometimes.  And he understood the game.  At different times, all of the things you say were true. I wouldn't say "not cerebral" (again, you don't have a 5'7" 173 lb guy in the NFL for 6 years if he doesn't have a head for the game). I would say "lost focus" (at bad times.

 

In the end, you're right, he wasn't 'enough' as a starting player, not because he couldn't do any of those things, but because he couldn't become consistent at doing them.  That's not uncommon for lower-tier guys who work their way up to a shot to start.   They got that shot because they COULD do those things.  Some make good; some lose that shot because they can't do the things they can do, consistently.  It's like Fitzpatrick at QB.  At times, he could make those jaw-dropping throws.  Then there were the pick-6s thrown at the worst possible time.  Not consistent enough.

 

The thing is, I think many of those things have been said of Andy Isabella - not a good or consistent route-runner, doesn't catch well in traffic, body-catches, doesn't track the deep ball well - but never, for whatever reason, got used as a gadget guy either.  So we'll see.  Maybe he will be that guy who gets his 3rd chance and makes good.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

How?  I put out a post asking folks like you to tell me your plan, what guy you would have gotten, how you would have fit him under the cap, how it would have affected other positions that may have needed upgrades.  And your response?  crickets.  You're just blowing a lot of hot air.

I chuckled when I saw your original post because it's absurd to require people to take time to write a detailed essay to justify an opinion that is widely shared. I could absolutely do it, but I'm not going to take the time. Your approach is a common one from fans who think the organization can do no wrong.

 

Just off the top of my head real quick: Bills could've paid Edmunds instead of Oliver and still come away with a good DT group of Jones, Ford, Settle, and Phillips; Bills could've drafted Drew Sanders (as I was hoping they would at the pick) instead of O'Cyrus Torrence and still had good guard depth with McGovern, Bates, Edwards, and Boettger; Bills could've signed Lavonte David if they had tried (and, by the way, his 2023 cap hit would easily fit under the Bills' salary cap even now). Not to mention all the other FA LBs they watched sign elsewhere for cheap. These are just a few thoughts. They should've prioritized having a starter at MLB. Do they sacrifice a bit of depth at one position if they had done the sign-Edmunds-instead or draft-Sanders-instead options? Sure, but that's kind of the point: you still have quality starters everywhere, including MLB.

[Shaw66]

20 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

 

Just off the top of my head real quick: Bills could've paid Edmunds instead of Oliver and still come away with a good DT group of Jones, Ford, Settle, and Phillips; Bills could've drafted Drew Sanders (as I was hoping they would at the pick) instead of O'Cyrus Torrence and still had good guard depth with McGovern, Bates, Edwards, and Boettger; Bills could've signed Lavonte David if they had tried (and, by the way, his 2023 cap hit would easily fit under the Bills' salary cap even now). Not to mention all the other FA LBs they watched sign elsewhere for cheap. These are just a few thoughts. They should've prioritized having a starter at MLB. Do they sacrifice a bit of depth at one position if they had done the sign-Edmunds-instead or draft-Sanders-instead options? Sure, but that's kind of the point: you still have quality starters everywhere, including MLB.

You're absolutely right.  The Bills could've paid Edmunds.   The question is why didn't they?

 

The answer is because THEY DON"T AGREE WITH YOU.  You say they should have prioritized middle linebacker.   They gave Miller the money they could have given to Edmunds because they prioritized edge rusher over mlb.  They gave Jones and Settle and Ford and Oliver the money they could have given Edmunds because they prioritized DT over middle linebacker.   They paid White.  They paid Poyer and Rapp.  They drafted Cook and Elam and Kincaid and Torrence because they prioritized running back and CB2 and receiving talent and offensive guard over mlb.   They prioritize EVERYTHING over middle linebacker. 

 

They have reasons for what they do.   You're free to disagree with them, but that doesn't mean you're right and they're wrong.  

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, I think you're unwittingly making my argument for me. 

 

Well, that might depend upon what argument, exactly, you're trying to make.  I started out reacting to this post of yours:

16 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

These discussions about the MLB have me beginning to wonder if the MLB is the least important player on defense.   Think about it.  Pretty much everyone here cares more about the corners, the edge rushers, the interior defensive linemen.  The biggest problem with the defense last season was that the Bills were missing their safeties. 

You went on to suggest that just about any guy who can thump could play MLB for the Bills:

16 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Edmunds, who is a sloppy tackler and who plays with very little aggressiveness, was the Bills leading tackler.   Doesn't that suggest that a solid, good athlete who is an aggressive tackler should be able to fill the position (in the run game)?   The middle linebacker is a guy who runs around in the middle and makes tackles because the guys all around the perimeter have forced the play to the inside.  

 

To the first, I understood your argument to be that the Bills haven't done more to address MLB because they believe, like you, that the MLB is the least important guy on the defense.  He's just the communication relay who calls out the play to the D and then the "sponge" who mops up the debris by finishing the business the other players have directed his way, if I'm understanding you.

 

I don't agree that McDermott and Beane think the MLB is the "least important player on defense".  They don't think it's the most important, clearly; McDermott insists on a solid DL rotation and Beane spends the most, positionally, on secondary followed by DL.  But that's in large part a "numbers game", having 4 DL on the field at all times and 5 CB.  It doesn't mean the LB and especially the MLB is the "least important".

 

We have some guys here who have forgotten more ball than I'll ever know, but I think this 'guy who runs around in the middle and makes tackles because the guys all around the perimeter have forced the play to the inside" you write represents a tremendously naive idea of the MLB's role and responsibilities.  He has to choose the correct play variant for what the offense shows immediately pre and then post snap and cue the rest of the team to react.  If he's late in making that read or fuzzy in communicating it, there will be defensive breakdowns.  He has to read the run play and choose the correct gap to defend, but yet not get "sucked in" by play action.  Some of these were areas Edmunds struggled with early in his career and got rightly called out here!  The MLB needs to be an aggressive tackler, sure, but to do that, the MLB needs to understand where he should be to position himself to make that tackle.

And then there's pass defense, and in McD's defense, ideally the MLB has a huge role in zone pass defense which means understanding how his coverage responsibility shifts and re-shifts with different route choices the receivers show post-snap.

 

Gone are the days when the NFL MLB was a big gimondulous beast of a see-ball-get-ball thumper, true, but that hardly means the importance is gone.

 

10 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I choose to look at the question from the end of the last season.  For the seven months since the season ended, Beane acquire no one new, except Williams, whom they did not expect to have any impact at the position this year.   From that perspective, the Bills did nothing.

 

So only this year's acquisitions and only making moves to sign players from OUTSIDE the team count as "something".  Re-signings, extensions and last year's moves don't count.  Got it. 

 

There was a time when Pittsburgh had the "best" linebackers, "Linebacker U".  And in that day, the philosophy was draft in the mid-rounds, and take 3 years to develop.  And Beane has a habit of drafting for potential, even in the high rounds - higher ceiling, lower floor guys.  Edmunds was an example!

The point I was trying to make is this:  Beane is like a poker player.  He has ideas of how he wants to build his winning hand, but he also reacts to what cards are available and what the other players show.  There are times when he has a position, or a position group, that he doesn't invest as many resources as he could or perhaps should.  But that doesn't mean the position or position group isn't important, it just means the cards for that hand didn't fall his way, so he did what he could with what was available.  My analogy was OL last season (where except for Saffold, he stayed pat) and slot receiver (where you might say the only thing he did was acquire Crowder and draft a 5th round pick who would be a long shot to consider this season; he also re-signed McKenzie and brought in Tavon Austin).

 

It's not that Beane thinks OL or slot are the "least important on offense".  It's that he has to build a team, not acquire the best player at every position.  So some positions get what he hopes is "enough".

 

If someone they thought was a brilliant potential slot fell to them in the draft or was available in FA, would they have invested the resource?  I would say "yes".  I would say the same thing about a prospect they thought was "all that and a bag of chips" in FA or draft for what they want at MLB.  But that didn't happen, and he had other team needs to address.

 

OK, I guess that's a long winded spiel for you to respond "I'm making your argument for you" again, but I don't think I can be any clearer.  TL;DR: the amount of resources Beane puts into a specific position or position group in a specific off-season or draft, does not indicate either his perception of that position's importance to McDermott and the Bills or its importance in the modern NFL.

 

Peace out.