Hopkins released by Arizona (7/16: signed by Titans)

[Einstein]

At this point, I’d be willing to give Hopkins the money just to keep him away from KC.

 

Having him play for us would just be a bonus.

 

Barring injury, it’s hard for me to imagine KC not representing the AFC in the Super Bowl yet again if they get Hopkins.

 

It’ll be Brady and Moss all over again. Except this time, Brady would have Moss AND Gronk (Kelce). 

[4merper4mer]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

At this point, I’d be willing to give Hopkins the money just to keep him away from KC.

 

Having him play for us would just be a bonus.

 

Barring injury, it’s hard for me to imagine KC not representing the AFC in the Super Bowl yet again if they get Hopkins.

 

It’ll be Brady and Moss all over again. Except this time, Brady would have Moss AND Gronk (Kelce). 

He’s more AJ Green part 2 than Randy Moss

[Einstein]

Just now, 4merper4mer said:

You’re being a jerk on purpose.  Ruggs Jeudy Lamb and Reagor all went before Jefferson and Aiyuk went right after,  That’s quite a spectrum of results and you’ve cherry picked…

 

Did you purposefully not read the conversation, or did you rush to reply so quickly that you didn’t have time to comprehend it? We were talking about what the Bills should do in HINDSIGHT. What the Bills would do with the information we know NOW (Jefferson being the best WR in the NFL).

 

All you had to do was read before you replied.

[TheWeatherMan]

59 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

How many times do these dudes need to make up crap before people realize they make up crap.

 

After Hopkins takes the three extra dollars the Bears or whoever offer, if some other guy becomes available ESPN will clickbait the Bills/Chiefs arms race again.

Agree, and the next WR situation to keep an eye on is Adams.  He’s not happy, and the Raiders might not even have Jimmy G available.  Adams might be cheaper cap wise than Hopkins if the Raiders are willing to eat a bunch of money for a higher draft pick.  

[4merper4mer]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Did you purposefully not read the conversation, or did you rush to reply so quickly that you didn’t have time to comprehend it? We were talking about what the Bills should do in HINDSIGHT. What the Bills would do with the information we know NOW (Jefferson being the best WR in the NFL).

 

All you had to do was read before you replied.

Do you have a parallel universe machine?  If so does it guarantee a rookie WR would have developed the same way under an inexperienced QB and that said rookie was polished enough to help the QB develop?  
 

In hindsight, getting Allen a proven vet was a far better choice.

2 minutes ago, TheWeatherMan said:

Agree, and the next WR situation to keep an eye on is Adams.  He’s not happy, and the Raiders might not even have Jimmy G available.  Adams might be cheaper cap wise than Hopkins if the Raiders are willing to eat a bunch of money for a higher draft pick.  

If it’s Adams and a trade, there may be less KC discussion because of the rivalry.

[Einstein]

1 minute ago, 4merper4mer said:

Do you have a parallel universe machine?  If so does it guarantee a rookie WR would have developed the same way 

 

I have a brain that tells me that the best WR in the NFL who was INSTANTLY elite would have done just fine with a top 3 QB (Josh Allen) and an elite offensive mind (Brian Daboll), which is a much better situation than a run first coach (Mike Zimmer) and a middling QB (Cousins).

 

You’re joking, right? Implying that Jefferson would have done worse in our elite offense vs Minnesota?

 

Gotta be kidding me.

[TheWeatherMan]

18 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Come on, that’s just ridiculous.

 

Jefferson was elite even in his rookie season, and he will likely be good for another 4-5 years after Diggs is out of the NFL (he is 5 years younger).

It’s not like Diggs taught Allen to be a QB. He simply gave Allen a legit WR for the first time in his career and came during a pivotal year 3. Jefferson would have done the same in my opinion.

Let’s say the Bills knew that Jefferson was going to be better than Diggs and decided to keep the pick.  Did you consider Minnesota could have traded Diggs to another team and drafted Jefferson or use their #25 to trade up ahead of us at 22 to snag him?  It’s silly to think Jefferson was going to 100% be there for us to grab.  

[4merper4mer]

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I have a brain that tells me that the best WR in the NFL who was INSTANTLY elite would have done just fine with a top 3 QB (Josh Allen) and an elite offensive mind (Brian Daboll), which is a much better situation than a run first coach (Mike Zimmer) and a middling QB (Cousins).

 

You’re joking, right? Implying that Jefferson would have done worse in our elite offense vs Minnesota?

 

Gotta be kidding me.

Shirley you can’t be serious.

 

1. You have to qualify your argument as one with the benefit of hindsight.  Even if taken at face value it is pointless to do this.  With hindsight in mind why not do this for the entire 53 man roster?  What is your actual point?

 

2. After hindsight is infused you’d STILL have to assume a smooth transition with Jefferson walking into a spot where he immediately had to be the 1.

[SWATeam]

2 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Shirley you can’t be serious.

 

1. You have to qualify your argument as one with the benefit of hindsight.  Even if taken at face value it is pointless to do this.  With hindsight in mind why not do this for the entire 53 man roster?  What is your actual point?

 

2. After hindsight is infused you’d STILL have to assume a smooth transition with Jefferson walking into a spot where he immediately had to be the 1.

It's a ridiculous point that people are making, not to mention that there are no assurances that this guy was even going to be there at the pick.

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said:

How many times do these dudes need to make up crap before people realize they make up crap.

 

After Hopkins takes the three extra dollars the Bears or whoever offer, if some other guy becomes available ESPN will clickbait the Bills/Chiefs arms race again.

Making up “crap” is the mainstay for all types of media, ten percent real / ninety percent crap, it is especially true during the football off season, 😂

 

just look at the 300 pages of fluff on DH, it’s all speculative off season crap,  Monty Python’s flying circus  could do great work with this stuff… its the ministry of silly walks around here, 😂

Edited May 29, 2023 by Don Otreply

[wppete]

Is there any benefit to signing him after June 1? 

[TheWeatherMan]

2 minutes ago, wppete said:

Is there any benefit to signing him after June 1? 

Yes, he won’t be on the Chiefs and we will have a legit #2 😝 

[Einstein]

32 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

He’s more AJ Green part 2 than Randy Moss

 

Randy Moss was more AJ Green part 2 (through ten seasons) than Hopkins is.

 

Here are the stats for all 3 receivers through 10 seasons (which is where Hopkins is right now).

 

 

13 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

You have to qualify your argument as one with the benefit of hindsight.

Yeah, two posters can have any conversation they want. With any parameters they want. 

 

You're just salty that you didn't read (or comprehend) what we were talking about, and immediately jumped in thinking you had a "got ya" moment.

 

Instead you were served a warm slice of humble pie. 

 

13 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

After hindsight is infused you’d STILL have to assume a smooth transition with Jefferson walking into a spot where he immediately had to be the 1.

 

Which there is no doubt, considering it was a smooth transition for him in a much worse offense.

Jefferson was the #1 in Minnesota his rookie year as well. He is elite and would have been elite in Buffalo too.

 

And I loved the Diggs trade.

 

 

 

.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Einstein

[4merper4mer]

Just now, Einstein said:

 

Randy Moss was more AJ Green part 2 (through ten seasons) than Hopkins is.

 

Here are the stats for all 3 receivers through 10 seasons (which is where Hopkins is right now).

 

Perhaps you don’t get my meaning.  When AJ Green moved on to the Cardinals he was largely useless to them and his production plummeted. That is what I meant by part 2.  Hopkins is on the verge of that.  He has had a terrific career.  What he has done in the past will not count for whichever team signs him.

[Einstein]

4 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Hopkins is on the verge of that.  He has had a terrific career.  What he has done in the past will not count for whichever team signs him.

 

Randy Moss joined the Patriots in his 10th season.

 

Hopkins will be joining whatever team he joins in his 11th season. 

[Bills!Win!]

I don’t like that people are calling Hopkins old when he’s 2 years younger than I am 

[Malazan]

4 minutes ago, Bills!Win! said:

I don’t like that people are calling Hopkins old when he’s 2 years younger than I am 

 

You're not old, you're ancient. 

[Doc]

11 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Perhaps you don’t get my meaning.  When AJ Green moved on to the Cardinals he was largely useless to them and his production plummeted. That is what I meant by part 2.  Hopkins is on the verge of that.  He has had a terrific career.  What he has done in the past will not count for whichever team signs him.

 

Hopkins had 717 yards in 9 games with Andy Dalton throwing to him.  He missed the first 6 because of suspension and sat out the last 2 because the season was over.

[4merper4mer]

26 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Hopkins had 717 yards in 9 games with Andy Dalton throwing to him.  He missed the first 6 because of suspension and sat out the last 2 because the season was over.

Translation: 6 games for cheating, 2 for pouting.  And Andy Dalton is not correct.

[julian]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

I have a brain that tells me that the best WR in the NFL who was INSTANTLY elite would have done just fine with a top 3 QB (Josh Allen) and an elite offensive mind (Brian Daboll), which is a much better situation than a run first coach (Mike Zimmer) and a middling QB (Cousins).

 

You’re joking, right? Implying that Jefferson would have done worse in our elite offense vs Minnesota?

 

Gotta be kidding me.

I think the argument is they needed a #1 right away and Diggs was just that, Jefferson or any of the other WRs were more of hope they’d be a #1 at some point.

 

 It was the right move at the time got the Bills.

[4merper4mer]

38 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Randy Moss joined the Patriots in his 10th season.

 

Hopkins will be joining whatever team he joins in his 11th season. 

Got any stats on Paul Warfield or James Lofton or any other guys who played 1000 years ago?  It’s a different game.  Guys like Eric Moulds had mostly bench their first few years.  Hopkins jumped in right away and has already shown signs his health is declining.

[Doc]

10 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Translation: 6 games for cheating, 2 for pouting.  And Andy Dalton is not correct.

 

Whoops on Dalton.  I thought Murray missed more time than that and did a poor search on his backup.  But the production is what it is.  Write it into his contract that if he gets caught for PEDs again he loses his money. 

 

That being said, I wouldn't break the bank for him.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Doc

[BananaB]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Whoops on Dalton.  I thought Murray missed more time than that.  But the production is what it is.  Write it into his contract that if he gets caught for PEDs again he loses his money. 

 

That being said, I wouldn't break the bank for him.

He spent more games with McCoy and McSorley throwing him the ball than Murray.  Which is worse than having Dalton throw you the ball. DHop is a freak, always been a freak. Putting up numbers with scrubs most of his career. Allen throwing him the ball will have him ending his career on a high note.

 

Dalton never played for Arizona 

Edited May 29, 2023 by BananaB

[mathja]

1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said:

Got any stats on Paul Warfield or James Lofton or any other guys who played 1000 years ago?  It’s a different game.  Guys like Eric Moulds had mostly bench their first few years.  Hopkins jumped in right away and has already shown signs his health is declining.

T.O. Had 4 1000+ yard seasons from age 31. His 15.1 YPC with Buffalo in a non-1000 yard season was actually higher than his career average. His numbers were even better in his last year with the Bengals.
 

Larry Fitz had over 100 catches in his age 32,33, & 34 seasons. 
 

These are Hall of Famer’s. They are different. DeAndre Hopkins is a Hall of Famer. That’s not a guarantee that he’ll finish out his career like these two guys, but I wouldn’t count him out, especially with the way he wins his matchups.

 

For me, it boils down to whether Hopkins is better than Gabriel Davis. I did not see a steep decline in the way he played in games last season. And I think playing with below average quarterbacks skews every other conversation, so it should skew this one too. How can QB play not make a difference?

Teams still scheme for Hopkins as a primary, they don’t do that for Gabe. I know Sauce Gardner can’t cover Diggs and Hopkins at the same time.

 

This is the window. It’s probably the last year of Poyer/Hyde. Von Miller isn’t going to be better 2 seasons from now. Milano and Diggs are still be their prime, but won’t be for much longer. Go for it now!!! 
 

P.S. My bigger concern is that the Jets trade for Davante Adams to counteract a Hopkins move by Buffalo. I would say the same about the Chiefs but I can’t imagine the Raiders handing over a superstar to their enemy. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by mathja

[Royale with Cheese]

20 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Got any stats on Paul Warfield or James Lofton or any other guys who played 1000 years ago?  It’s a different game.  Guys like Eric Moulds had mostly bench their first few years.  Hopkins jumped in right away and has already shown signs his health is declining.

LOL

Randy Moss jumped in right away too.

Just because Moulds didn’t play right away doesn’t mean others didn’t.

Marvin Harrison who was drafted the same year as Moulds played right away.

So did Terry Glenn.

So did Keyshawn Johnson

 

 

 

[TheWei44]

I've gone back and forth on this in my head, but I think I come out that we should do whatever we can to get him ("swing for the fences"/"go all in").  While I think the Bills O will be strong no matter what, with DHop I think we would be virtually unstoppable, and that would mean the D would only have to be reasonably solid.  I also think that if we don't get him, there's no reason to blame Beane or point fingers.

[Einstein]

 

24 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

(Hopkins) already shown signs his health is declining.

 

What signs?

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, mathja said:

T.O. Had 4 1000+ years seasons from age 31. 

 

Yeah that part of his post was so absurd that I completed ignored it. He is comparing players from the 70's and 80's and saying their decline is attributable to 2012 Randy Moss, but not 2023 Hopkins.

[UKBillFan]

37 minutes ago, julian said:

I think the argument is they needed a #1 right away and Diggs was just that, Jefferson or any of the other WRs were more of hope they’d be a #1 at some point.

 

 It was the right move at the time got the Bills.

 

Exactly.

 

@Einstein - if we could redo the draft, should the Bills hold back on trading for Diggs and aim for Jefferson instead? Even with the benefit of the hindsight, I'm not sure. At Josh's stage of development, I think getting an experienced number one WR through the door was key. Jefferson did hit the ground running, in some ways literally, but that was with a, yes, less talented, but more experienced QB.

[4merper4mer]

11 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

LOL

Randy Moss jumped in right away too.

Just because Moulds didn’t play right away doesn’t mean others didn’t.

Marvin Harrison who was drafted the same year as Moulds played right away.

So did Terry Glenn.

So did Keyshawn Johnson

 

 

 

Terry Glenn and Keyshawn both declined rapidly when they hit their decline.

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

@Einstein - if we could redo the draft, should the Bills hold back on trading for Diggs and aim for Jefferson instead? Even with the benefit of the hindsight, I'm not sure.

 

With hindsight, you take Jefferson. No question in my mind.

 

Without hindsight, you trade for Diggs. And I loved the Diggs trade.

 

But here's the thing. Diggs didn't teach Allen how to QB. It's not like Diggs came in and gave Allen a masterclass. He just gave Allen a competent WR for the first time in his career. Suddenly Allen had a guy who could beat defenders at every level of the field. Short, middle, and deep. 

 

Jefferson would have done the same, but even better. 

 

 

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, 4merper4mer said:

Terry Glenn and Keyshawn both declined rapidly when they hit their decline.

Folks can point to cases of rapid decline and players that remained effective late into their careers. It's a risk. You don't like his character and think he is breaking down. Others think he is still a strong player and are willing to take a risk. Nothing anyone says is going to alter the nature of the situation which inherently has uncertainty involved.

[Einstein]

If people are worried about Hopkins rapidly declining at 30 years old, then we should all be terrified about Diggs, who turns 30 this year. lol.

[Dr. Who]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

With hindsight, you take Jefferson. No question in my mind.

 

Without hindsight, you trade for Diggs. And I loved the Diggs trade.

 

But here's the thing. Diggs didn't teach Allen how to QB. It's not like Diggs came in and gave Allen a masterclass. He just gave Allen a competent WR for the first time in his career. Suddenly Allen had a guy who could beat defenders at every level of the field. Short, middle, and deep. 

 

Jefferson would have done the same, but even better. 

 

 

The only thing more futile than arguing back-and-forth about possible futures with indeterminate variables is arguing over hypotheticals regarding a past that cannot be altered. You absolutely cannot prove a counterfactual. It's just your opinion.

[Teddy KGB]

Bills are betting favorites to get Hopkins per Billswire on fb 

[Einstein]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

It's just your opinion.

 

Welcome to internet message boards.

 

If you're looking for facts only, then a news website may be more suited to you.

[BADOLBILZ]

23 minutes ago, julian said:

I think the argument is they needed a #1 right away and Diggs was just that, Jefferson or any of the other WRs were more of hope they’d be a #1 at some point.

 

 It was the right move at the time got the Bills.

 

 

Yeah getting a veteran WR in Diggs was absolutely the NECESSARY move.

 

It was necessary because they had blundered and not selected one of several stud WR prospects in the draft the year prior and they had too much at risk with Josh Allen in development to pass on a chance to get a veteran who was ready to elevate the game of Josh Allen immediately.

 

We are accustomed to WR's fetching big hauls in trade now but at the time they ended up over-paying by the standards of the time to get Diggs because of that desperate need..........meanwhile Arizona got the at-the-time MUCH better Hopkins from Houston for a second round pick.

 

It isn't totally unlike the current situation with the Bills interest in Hopkins.    You can dream on your roster and fantasize about big improvements from players all you want in the offseason..........but when they take the field on opening day Gabe Davis likely is still your WR2 and there is no reason whatsoever to believe that he isn't still the same guy who wasn't up to the task in the past.   None.

 

2020 offseason John Brown stood a better chance of being a WR1 in the coming season than Davis has of being the kind of WR2 that helps the Bills matchup with loaded WR corps like Cinci and Miami.    

 

They are no less desperate for a WR1A now than they were desperate for what Diggs gave them.    I know the risks with Hopkins........he's older, he may be becoming injury prone and has a PED suspension risk hanging over him and will cost a  pretty decent amount of money.   It's concerning.   But Diggs wasn't even a clear WR1 on his team in Minnesota and came with a $15M aav contract and bad rap as a teammate when they traded for him.......there were big risks there as well.   And we knew that was a terrific WR class they were trading out of.......there was no question about the potential opportunity cost.........that the Vikings might get a better player.

 

But the Bills need a WR2.   They've proven that the last two regular seasons as their WR corps has declined.    Hopefully that's Kincaid if Hopkins falls thru but I never presume rookies are going to be up to tasks that big.   It's rare.   The best WR prospects usually take until mid-season to acclimate to the pro game and then there are concerns about hitting the wall late.   

[BuffaloBillyG]

23 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

Bills are betting favorites to get Hopkins per Billswire on fb 

Bills were the betting favorites to win the Super Bowl last year. Betting odds mean diddly lol

[MasterStrategist]

15 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah getting a veteran WR in Diggs was absolutely the NECESSARY move.

 

It was necessary because they had blundered and not selected one of several stud WR prospects in the draft the year prior and they had too much at risk with Josh Allen in development to pass on a chance to get a veteran who was ready to elevate the game of Josh Allen immediately.

 

We are accustomed to WR's fetching big hauls in trade now but at the time they ended up over-paying by the standards of the time to get Diggs because of that desperate need..........meanwhile Arizona got the at-the-time MUCH better Hopkins from Houston for a second round pick.

 

It isn't totally unlike the current situation with the Bills interest in Hopkins.    You can dream on your roster and fantasize about big improvements from players all you want in the offseason..........but when they take the field on opening day Gabe Davis likely is still your WR2 and there is no reason whatsoever to believe that he isn't still the same guy who wasn't up to the task in the past.   None.

 

2020 offseason John Brown stood a better chance of being a WR1 in the coming season than Davis has of being the kind of WR2 that helps the Bills matchup with loaded WR corps like Cinci and Miami.    

 

They are no less desperate for a WR1A now than they were desperate for what Diggs gave them.    I know the risks with Hopkins........he's older, he may be becoming injury prone and has a PED suspension risk hanging over him and will cost a  pretty decent amount of money.   It's concerning.   But Diggs wasn't even a clear WR1 on his team in Minnesota and came with a $15M aav contract and bad rap as a teammate when they traded for him.......there were big risks there as well.   And we knew that was a terrific WR class they were trading out of.......there was no question about the potential opportunity cost.........that the Vikings might get a better player.

 

But the Bills need a WR2.   They've proven that the last two regular seasons as their WR corps has declined.    Hopefully that's Kincaid if Hopkins falls thru but I never presume rookies are going to be up to tasks that big.   It's rare.   The best WR prospects usually take until mid-season to acclimate to the pro game and then there are concerns about hitting the wall late.   

Not disagreeing that Dhop helps us immediately over Gabe, but weren't you the poster trying to make a point that a stud QB can carry an offense? 

 

IIRC, using Mahomes and this past KC team as an example.  KC with a stud #1 option to go with a generational QB/coach, and an OL to give him plenty of time to throw.  

 

I admit that I may have you confused with someone else, if so my apologies.  

 

But I thought that poster had a solid point.  Either way, hopefully our IOL moves pan out quickly. McGovern is a rising player, and the addition of Kincaid.  Dorsey has the pressure on his shoulders to make this work.

[4merper4mer]

26 minutes ago, Einstein said:

If people are worried about Hopkins rapidly declining at 30 years old, then we should all be terrified about Diggs, who turns 30 this year. lol.

Well we got several good years out of Diggs already and he is under contract so while I hope he doesn’t decline, I have to acknowledge the possibility.  Why double your risk especially when Diggs health and non-cheating record is already better than Hopkins?

[HappyDays]