Leslie Frazier "taking a year off from coaching" per Bills PR

[Thurman#1]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Chris Jones is incredible. But you can't convince me that their back 7 is more talented than our back 7. Chris Jones alone did not hold the Bengals to 20 points. Their game plan on defense was completely different. They pressed the WRs to give their guys a chance to disrupt the timing and they sent every pass rush concept they had to keep Burrow guessing. They got burned a couple times but they also had two interceptions and knocked Burrow around. Even if we had Chris Jones I don't think it would have mattered. Our game plan made it easy pitch and catch.

 

 

Our back 7 with White at his current level of post-injury play? And Poyer limping around? With Jaquan Johnson playing 34 snaps, Dean Marlowe 41 snaps, Dane Jackson 28 snaps, Cam Lewis 13 snaps, and Elam (though he actually played really well for a rookie in that game) 49 snaps?

 

Certainly healthy our back seven is better than theirs. Without question. But it's a legitimate argument that KC was better than that patchwork back 7.

 

Looked to me like Cincy got lucky to run into an injured Mahomes who also just wasn't having a good game.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

13 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

 

So because it was a total team collapse, that means we shouldn't address the problems and hold people accountable?

 

And let's not act like that's the first time our defense has gotten shredded in our early playoff exits in recent years.

Not only that, what happened last year? Defensive collapse.

 

Year before? Defensive collapse.

 

Bills defense allowed 20+ first downs and recorded 0 takeaways in those 3 games.

 

The defensive gameplan was nearly “bend but don’t break” and see if the QB will make a mistake. Patrick Mahommes and Joe Burrow. Great idea. It was death by 1000 cuts. 

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Not only that, what happened last year? Defensive collapse.

 

Year before? Defensive collapse.

 

Bills defense allowed 20+ first downs and recorded 0 takeaways in those 3 games.

 

The defensive gameplan was nearly “bend but don’t break” and see if the QB will make a mistake. Patrick Mahommes and Joe Burrow. Great idea. It was death by 1000 cuts. 

 

That's what they seem to not understand against QBs like Burrow and Mahomes...if you don't force them to make a mistake, they most likely aren't going to make one.  You let them sit back there against soft coverage and no pressure, they will pick you apart all day long.

[Ramza86]

Tell me youre firing someone without firing someone

[newcam2012]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Our back 7 with White at his current level of post-injury play? And Poyer limping around? With Jaquan Johnson playing 34 snaps, Dean Marlowe 41 snaps, Dane Jackson 28 snaps, Cam Lewis 13 snaps, and Elam (though he actually played really well for a rookie in that game) 49 snaps?

 

Certainly healthy our back seven is better than theirs. Without question. But it's a legitimate argument that KC was better than that patchwork back 7.

 

Looked to me like Cincy got lucky to run into an injured Mahomes who also just wasn't having a good game.

Sounds like Thurman is playing arm chair QB here. Lots of excuses after the fact. 

 

Part of being a great team is having back ups step up. Take a look a the Cinci Oline for a fantastic example. 

 

Wondering why you didn't share these concerns prior to the Bengal game? Or were you thinking the Bilks would overcome their injuries and succeed? 

 

At this point, your optimism and excuses fall very short. Fact is the Bills got smoked at  home. They were flat, unprepared, overmatched, and outcoached. Stick with the facts and stop intellectualing. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by newcam2012

[H2o]

Was just on the PFT website and caught some discussion between Michael Smith, Michael Holly, and a guy named Mike Jones about Leslie Frazier on "Brother From Another". I hate how everything is made into a race topic these days, but that's the first thing they try to drag into it. They were saying he should have gotten interviews during this HC hiring cycle, something is fishy about all of this, and asking if he possibly stepped away because he was frustrated to be passed over. Saying that coaches talk about being "scarred irreparably by being passed over" by NFL teams. Seriously? That's where they're trying to take this?  These guys must be completely oblivious to what has taken place the last 2-3 years in the Playoffs with his defenses. ESPECIALLY the 13 seconds debacle, and then how the defense was completely clowned by Cincy in the Divisional round this year. There is a willful level of ignorance with some of these discussions that leads to more ignorance being repeated by other people, all because these fools took it there in the first place. Just dumb.  

[Green Lightning]

13 hours ago, purple haze said:

After our offense kept giving the ball away and putting the D on short fields.  That part.

 

They turned it over twice as well. Again, last string QB who was a rook.

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Injuries were a big problem. But the Chiefs didn't have Von Miller, Micah Hyde, or DaQuan Jones when they held the Bengals to 20 points. Even with our injuries was the Chiefs defense really that much more talented than the defense we fielded in the divisional round? Multiple rookie CBs including a 7th rounder, an iffy safety tandem, meh edge rushers. Chris Jones is obviously elite and Nick Bolton appears to be a rising star. But the Bengals scored 27 against us in a game where they only tried to score for 3 quarters. Against the Chiefs they fought to the very end and came away with 20. To me the difference in those outcomes is a coaching discrepancy much more than a talent discrepancy.

 

You have a point.  There were a lot of factors - injuries, field conditions etc - but the Bengals had horrible OL injuries and we couldn't take advantage.

 

I've heard that a lot of play on the lines is mental, not physical.  You have two sets of behemoth men, both of whom train hard and are strong, both of whom are playing hindered by injuries at that time of year.  The difference often comes down to mental preparation and toughness.  Same with being able to plant and cut on a snowy field.

 

I have had the thought, for a while, that someone on the Bills defensive staff needs time and familiarity to craft an effective gameplan. 

 

We've played the Chiefs 6 times under McDermott, even split.  5 times with Mahomes at QB.  The first two times, they thumped us convincingly.  Then we beat them convincingly, then the 13 seconds playoff game where it looked like we had them beat, only...then another strong win last fall.  Part of that is the McDermott growth mindset that if you don't succeed, you pick your failure apart and decide what needs to change and fix it and try again.

 

We had not played the Bengals since 2019, with Andy Dalton at QB (we won).  It seems as though sometimes, someone on the Bills coaching staff has a sort of failure of imagination and can't necessarily craft an effective gameplan from watching what works for other teams. 

 

For whatever reason, whether coaching or execution (I think, both) the Bills defense appeared unprepared and ineffective.

A good question is if the seeming need to actually play a team and get thumped by them before we can craft a good defense against them, belongs to Frazier, or to McDermott, or to both.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Beck Water

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Yeah I came up with Johnson also. That’s probably it.

 

Milano hasn’t really stepped up in the playoffs. It was him and Jerry Hughes that bounced off Watson that would’ve ended that playoff game.

 

Milano also was running 30 yards down field with a 3rd string TE while Tyreek Hill was coming right behind him on that 65 yard TD vs KC. No awareness at all. I get that he was in man but come on, show some awareness. He was completely lost.

 

We signed Von Miller to be the difference maker in the playoffs.

 

Matt did miss a tackle in Houston but otherwise he has been very consistent for the Bills in the playoffs. The KC play isn't on him. 

[FireChans]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Matt did miss a tackle in Houston but otherwise he has been very consistent for the Bills in the playoffs. The KC play isn't on him. 

Milano very rarely has a game where he is a complete non-factor out there. TJ as well. The rest of the defense, not so much.

 

There's just only so much a LB and slot CB can do when Tremaine is getting pancaked into the Gatorade stand and the DL is getting stood up at the LOS and our CB is knocking out himself and our one-armed safety.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

We scored 10 points.  So... maybe it was a total team collapse?

 

Oh, without a doubt it was a total team collapse.

[Utah John]

I think Frazier was just personally disappointed he didn't get a nibble for any of the vacant HC jobs, after the statistically great performance of his defense over a period of several years.  

 

And I think he was professionally embarrassed by the lousy performance of his defense over in the playoff losses the last four years.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

Bingo!

 

I just don't understand the Bills defensive game plan. What in the world did they learn from the 9 min Monday night game? They seemingly did nothing different. 

 

That defensive game plan was doomed from the start. You can't tell me coach McD didn't have his hand on that game plan. 

 

It was a colossal failure in everyway. However, coaches have to create effective game plans to give their players the best chance to win. The exact opposite happened. 

 

Game plan?  LOL 

 

Was there a game plan?  Seriously.  

 

"Alright men, we know they're gonna score, let's at least make it look reasonable.  Just don't let 'em score a TD on every play, try and keep 'em under 10 yards-per-play.  Let 'em catch the ball and give 'em a good cushion, let's be good sports in the interests of character, let's help 'em feel accomplished.  We'll lure them into a sense of overconfidence and then Josh will outscore them.  Now go get 'em!". 

 

[hondo in seattle]

12 hours ago, Figster said:

 

 

 

I guess we all choose our data points.  I'll remember him more like this...

 

 

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

42 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

 

I guess we all choose our data points.  I'll remember him more like this...

 

 

 

 

 

We played a remarkable slate of bad quarterbacks that year iirc

[WyoAZBillfan]

48 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

 

I guess we all choose our data points.  I'll remember him more like this...

 

 

 

 

 

I feel both can be true. As been stated last playoff game was a team failure, which is how I see it. 
good luck LF in future endeavors. 
Go Bills!!

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, H2o said:

Was just on the PFT website and caught some discussion between Michael Smith, Michael Holly, and a guy named Mike Jones about Leslie Frazier on "Brother From Another". I hate how everything is made into a race topic these days, but that's the first thing they try to drag into it. They were saying he should have gotten interviews during this HC hiring cycle, something is fishy about all of this, and asking if he possibly stepped away because he was frustrated to be passed over. Saying that coaches talk about being "scarred irreparably by being passed over" by NFL teams. Seriously? That's where they're trying to take this?  These guys must be completely oblivious to what has taken place the last 2-3 years in the Playoffs with his defenses. ESPECIALLY the 13 seconds debacle, and then how the defense was completely clowned by Cincy in the Divisional round this year. There is a willful level of ignorance with some of these discussions that leads to more ignorance being repeated by other people, all because these fools took it there in the first place. Just dumb.  

 

I mean, there are a couple of points.

 

HC hired this season

Broncos - retread Sean Payton

Cards - Eagles DC Jon Gannon

Texans - 49ers DC DeMeco Ryans

Colts - Eagles OC Sean Steichen

Panthers - retread Frank Reich

 

2 retreads, 2 young DCs, 1 young OC

 

HC hired last season

Saints - Saints DC Dennis Allen, retread of failed Raiders HC

Giants - Bills OC Brian Daboll

Bears - Colts DC Matt Eberflus

Broncos - Green Bay OC Nathaniel Hackett

Dolphins - 49ers OC Mike McDaniel

LV Raiders -NE OC Josh McDaniels, retread of failed Denver HC and failed Rams OC

Vikings - LA Rams OC Kevin O'Connell

Jaguars - (out of football) Doug Pederson, retread of Eagles HC who failed to develop Carson Wentz but won a Superbowl and a WC game with Nick Foles

Texans - Texans DC Lovie Smith, retread Bucs and Bears HC.   With the Bears, Smith managed a Div, Conf, and SB appearance w/ QB Orton, Cutler, and Grossman

 

4 retreads (counting Allen as a retread), 1 middle-aged DC, 3 young OCs

 

So it's clearly not true that only hot young offensive coaches are being hired.  6 of the HC hires of the last 2 seasons are re-tread HCs, and 5 of 14 were defensive coaches.  However, only 2 of the 6 retreads hired were defensive coaches.

 

Leaving aside the "race" question, I think it's fair for Frazier to look at his accomplishments and say that he's shown at least as much as other coaches who got a 2nd chance.  What did Josh McDaniel do in Denver?  8-8, 4-12.  What did Dennis Allen do with the Raiders?  Two 4 and 12 seasons, one of them with Carson Palmer who moved to AZ and promptly showed that he could still play at a high level.  As DC, Allen led a couple top defenses (#4 and #5) with NO but they fizzed in the playoffs.

 

Meanwhile, Frazier has had 3 #1 or #2 defenses in his 6 years, and two of the years he didn't were rebuilding.  As a HC, he took the Vikes to 10-5 and a playoff appearance with Ponder as his QB.  Obviously, he'd get more looks if his D had performed better for the last 13 seconds last season and in the Cincy game this season, but failure of his defense to perform in a playoff game doesn't seem to have been a bar to Dennis Allen.

 

So why is that?  I'm not saying "race" is the answer, but I think it would be naive to think that it doesn't factor in.  The owners of NFL teams are, for the most part, old white guys, and for the most part, all of us (black white M F) are simply more comfortable with people who remind us of ourselves in some way.  Mostly we aren't even consciously aware of this kind of bias.

 

It wouldn't be a surprise to me if that question weighed on Frazier, as another season with a top ranked D and a playoff win apparently failed to get him so much as a phone call, while the Broncos traded away what? to get Payton out of retirement.  I would imagine there is an element of frustration there.  It's common advice for guys who have not made it as HC to take a year off before taking another position, so that they can be sure they have time to do a thorough "lessons learned".  That might apply to Frazier, as well.

 

As an immediate reason to step away and at this time, I'm not sure.  I would guess, that either there was going to be a change in the defense that he wasn't comfortable with - Joe Danna I think was brought in from Houston and Al Holcomb, whose longest experience was as LB coach of the Panthers, in part because the Bills want to utilize their safeties and LB a bit differently.  Maybe Frazier isn't comfortable with that? 

 

It's also possible that McDermott decided that he was going to call defensive plays next season, and Frazier understandably sees that as a demotion. 

 

Then there's the possibility that there are medical or family reasons.  After listening to Beane's entire presser, I personally think that is less likely.  The whole bit about he doesn't want to retire and Beane isn't sure if he'll be coaching with the Bills in 2024 just doesn't sound like a guy who asked for leave for those reasons, but that's entirely a personal opinion.
 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Beck Water

[WideNine]

57 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

 

I guess we all choose our data points.  I'll remember him more like this...

 

 

 

 

 

 

We have fielded some very competitive defenses, particularly when Frazier had everyone healthy.

 

I do feel like there are times you need to shake things up particularly when our defenses have come up so small in so many playoff games against top-tier offenses.

 

I won't paint all of Frazier's contributions to the Bills with just that one negative brush - he has been good for us, BUT we have to figure out how our defense can be more competitive in those playoff games to be able to get past the Bengals and the Chiefs.

 

At the end of the day, that has got to be the focus of OBD leadership.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

17 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

We have fielded some very competitive defenses, particularly when Frazier had everyone healthy.

 

But rarely against superior offenses.  Frazier's defenses could shut down average to weak offenses to a degree that seldom happens in the current NFL.  Hence the high regular season rankings.  But against the top QB's & offenses, particularly in the playoffs, the story was not the same.

 

For sure Frazier had Jackson & the Ravens figured out and he gets an A+ for that.  Otherwise the failings of his defense at key points against top offenses was a recurring theme.

 

 

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Chris Jones is incredible. But you can't convince me that their back 7 is more talented than our back 7. Chris Jones alone did not hold the Bengals to 20 points. Their game plan on defense was completely different. They pressed the WRs to give their guys a chance to disrupt the timing and they sent every pass rush concept they had to keep Burrow guessing. They got burned a couple times but they also had two interceptions and knocked Burrow around. Even if we had Chris Jones I don't think it would have mattered. Our game plan made it easy pitch and catch.

You play completely different when you know the DL will get home.

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

We scored 10 points.  So... maybe it was a total team collapse?

It was a total team collapse.  But it was also ANOTHER example of an elite QB and powerful offense having their way with a Frazier coached defense in the playoffs.

 

Had the defense played lights out maybe we win that game 16 - 13.  But it didn't.  In fact at key points in that game - at the start and after both Bills scores - the defense went to sleep and allowed long time consuming scoring drives to happen.

 

And for the record the offense played lights out in BOTH of last years playoff games and yet we went 1 - 1 thanks to the defense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sharky7337]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Game plan?  LOL 

 

Was there a game plan?  Seriously.  

 

"Alright men, we know they're gonna score, let's at least make it look reasonable.  Just don't let 'em score a TD on every play, try and keep 'em under 10 yards-per-play.  Let 'em catch the ball and give 'em a good cushion, let's be good sports in the interests of character, let's help 'em feel accomplished.  We'll lure them into a sense of overconfidence and then Josh will outscore them.  Now go get 'em!". 

 

They didn't even want to adjust their gameplan. Mc Dermot said in an interview that week that he was surprised they had to go back and tweak anything at all... it's on one of the interviews... when I heard that I was like oh gosh...

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

But rarely against superior offenses.  Frazier's defenses could shut down average to weak offenses to a degree that seldom happens in the current NFL.  Hence the high regular season rankings.  But against the top QB's & offenses, particularly in the playoffs, the story was not the same.

 

For sure Frazier had Jackson & the Ravens figured out and he gets an A+ for that.  Otherwise the failings of his defense at key points against top offenses was a recurring theme.

 

 

Even the best defenses in football very rarely now "shut down" superior offenses. It is just not the game anymore. The Bills are hardly alone in that. San Francisco were the #1 defense in football this year. Gave up 31 to the Eagles in the playoffs (and could have been more had Philly needed to score again). The Eagles #2 defense gave up 38 in the Superbowl (okay a scoop and score in there, but counter that with the Chiefs kneeled away a certain TD at the end). You can't win the Superbowl shutting down top offenses now. You might have one game in a post season where you do it... might. But to make a deep post season run you are going to have to win on offense. 

 

Which does get us to the point where you and I have a note of agreement. The Bills need to both allocate more resources to their offense and do a better job of talent evaluation on offense (on the line in particular). Because even the top defenses in football, when faced with the top offenses, are going to give up 30 more often than not. You gotta win on offense. 

 

It is also why blaming the defense for Cincy and giving the atrocious offensive display a pass won't wash. The Bills are going nowhere in the playoffs whoever the coach is, whatever the defense does, if they can't execute better offensively. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by GunnerBill

[PBF81]

1 minute ago, Sharky7337 said:

They didn't even want to adjust their gameplan. Mc Dermot said in an interview that week that he was surprised they had to go back and tweak anything at all... it's on one of the interviews... when I heard that I was like oh gosh...

 

McD says almost nothing in most of his pressers.  He's not forthcoming, even with this Frasier thing.  Did Frasier's contract end and not renewed?  I mean who in this league gets to decide to step away from a Coordinator position for what essentially amounts to a sabatical?  I've never heard of this.  

 

"We'll have to watch the video and adjust."  Sure Sean.  

 

We don't even adjust to our own reasons for success on the field in any given game.  "Hey, the run's working great."  ... "Yeah, let's abandon that and let Josh do everything again."  

 

Everything seems shrouded in mystery with this team.  It's the least forthcoming with information for the paying fans side of the business (or media part of the business) that I ever recall at OBD.  I mean we've had coaches that probably should have shut up during their pressers but didn't.  We can't get anything at all from these guys.  

 

I don't see this lack of communication ending well.  

 

 

[newcam2012]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, as long as you throw out the other three regular seasons of games and the playoff games in those years where they were good, and you  only include the two against Mahomes when we didn't have a single really effective pass rusher and the one against Burrow with a wave of injuries putting most of our best players out or shades of themselves, including DaQuan and Von gone ... yeah, as long as you only look at those, it doesn't look good.

 

You're also throwing out the big picture. You're going out of your way to cater to your confirmation bias and only look at things that lead to the conclusion you're looking for. It's one of the best blueprints for flawed thinking that humanity working in concert have ever found.

 

The offense wasn't nearly as injured in that Bengals game. They sucked too. How come you're not raving at them? They were pretty healthy.

 

Of course analysts are saying they may regress. That's true every season. Are Cosell, Bucky Brooks, Florio or Sims predicting they'll regress? Can you produce some links showing that?

 

[transplantbillsfan]

13 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

At least on this forum, there seems to be a sizeable and vocal contingent who do not respect Frazier....examples:

 

 

 

I'm not saying these aren't fair points, but people seem to forget that he did run a defense that was consistently good and GOT us to the playoffs.

 

Nope. Haven't forgotten that.

 

But he's consistently been one of the main problems in our last game of the season for 4 consecutive years.

 

I think Joe Marino captures the "we're grateful to Leslie Frazier, but time to move on" sentiment 

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Even the best defenses in football very rarely now "shut down" superior offenses. It is just not the game anymore. The Bills are hardly alone in that. San Francisco were the #1 defense in football this year. Gave up 31 to the Eagles in the playoffs (and could have been more had Philly needed to score again). The Eagles #2 defense gave up 38 in the Superbowl (okay a scoop and score in there, but counter that with the Chiefs kneeled away a certain TD at the end). You can't win the Superbowl shutting down top offenses now. You might have one game in a post season where you do it... might. But to make a deep post season run you are going to have to win on offense. 

 

Which does get us to the point where you and I have a note of agreement. The Bills need to both allocate more resources to their offense and do a better job of talent evaluation on offense (on the line in particular). Because even the top defenses in football, when faced with the top offenses, are going to give up 30 more often than not. You gotta win on offense. 

 

It is also why blaming the defense for Cincy and giving the atrocious offensive display a pass won't wash. The Bills are going nowhere in the playoffs whoever the coach is, whatever the defense does, if they can't execute better offensively. 

LMFAO at saying 'The niners defense gave up 31' and following that up with 'giving the atrocious offensive display a pass won't wash'

[I'm Spartacus]

24 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

For sure Frazier had Jackson & the Ravens figured out and he gets an A+ for that.  Otherwise the failings of his defense at key points against top offenses was a recurring theme.

 

 

 

 

It's also possible that the defensive squad was jacked up to shut down Lamar, and played an inspired game regardless of Leslie Frazier's game plan. Let's not forget the players play the game regardless of scheme.

[GunnerBill]

19 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

LMFAO at saying 'The niners defense gave up 31' and following that up with 'giving the atrocious offensive display a pass won't wash'

 

They are two separate points. The 49ers had an atrocious offensive display as well on their 4th or 5th Quarterback or whatever he was. But regardless, the 49ers were going to have to outscore the Eagles. That is the point.

34 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

McD says almost nothing in most of his pressers.  He's not forthcoming, even with this Frasier thing.  Did Frasier's contract end and not renewed?  I mean who in this league gets to decide to step away from a Coordinator position for what essentially amounts to a sabatical?  I've never heard of this.  

 

Jim Schwartz did it like 2 years ago. 

[PBF81]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Schwartz did it like 2 years ago. 

 

Schwartz resigned.  

 

Has Frasier resigned?  If so then I missed that part of it.  

 

Resigning is resigning, "stepping away for a year" is not resigning.  

 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, PBF81 said:

 

Schwartz resigned.  

 

Has Frasier resigned?  If so then I missed that part of it.  

 

Resigning is resigning, "stepping away for a year" is not resigning.  

 

 

The difference is Schwartz was under contract. Leslie isn't. But he resigned to step away from the sport and take a year out and was very clear that was what he was doing. He didn't resign and then see if there were other job options. He resigned to take a year out. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They are two separate points. The 49ers had an atrocious offensive display as well on their 4th or 5th Quarterback or whatever he was. But regardless, the 49ers were going to have to outscore the Eagles. That is the point.

 

Jim Schwartz did it like 2 years ago. 

The actual point is that as far as levels of offensive atrocities go, the Niners defense actually had an excuse to give up 31. And they still held the Eagles under 270 total yards and 5/15 on third down. 

 

The Niners defense did decently operating under much worse conditions than the Bills defense. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

30 minutes ago, I'm Spartacus said:

It's also possible that the defensive squad was jacked up to shut down Lamar, and played an inspired game regardless of Leslie Frazier's game plan. Let's not forget the players play the game regardless of scheme.

Are you saying they were not jacked up to play the other games?

[Chaos]

48 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The Bills are going nowhere in the playoffs whoever the coach is, whatever the defense does, if they can't execute better offensively. 

I think the 13 seconds debacle demonstrated beyond question that our offense is good enough to get to the Championship game. 

[colin]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

I mean, there are a couple of points.

 

HC hired this season

Broncos - retread Sean Payton

Cards - Eagles DC Jon Gannon

Texans - 49ers DC DeMeco Ryans

Colts - Eagles OC Sean Steichen

Panthers - retread Frank Reich

 

2 retreads, 2 young DCs, 1 young OC

 

HC hired last season

Saints - Saints DC Dennis Allen, retread of failed Raiders HC

Giants - Bills OC Brian Daboll

Bears - Colts DC Matt Eberflus

Broncos - Green Bay OC Nathaniel Hackett

Dolphins - 49ers OC Mike McDaniel

LV Raiders -NE OC Josh McDaniels, retread of failed Denver HC and failed Rams OC

Vikings - LA Rams OC Kevin O'Connell

Jaguars - (out of football) Doug Pederson, retread of Eagles HC who failed to develop Carson Wentz but won a Superbowl and a WC game with Nick Foles

Texans - Texans DC Lovie Smith, retread Bucs and Bears HC.   With the Bears, Smith managed a Div, Conf, and SB appearance w/ QB Orton, Cutler, and Grossman

 

4 retreads (counting Allen as a retread), 1 middle-aged DC, 3 young OCs

 

So it's clearly not true that only hot young offensive coaches are being hired.  6 of the HC hires of the last 2 seasons are re-tread HCs, and 5 of 14 were defensive coaches.  However, only 2 of the 6 retreads hired were defensive coaches.

 

Leaving aside the "race" question, I think it's fair for Frazier to look at his accomplishments and say that he's shown at least as much as other coaches who got a 2nd chance.  What did Josh McDaniel do in Denver?  8-8, 4-12.  What did Dennis Allen do with the Raiders?  Two 4 and 12 seasons, one of them with Carson Palmer who moved to AZ and promptly showed that he could still play at a high level.  As DC, Allen led a couple top defenses (#4 and #5) with NO but they fizzed in the playoffs.

 

Meanwhile, Frazier has had 3 #1 or #2 defenses in his 6 years, and two of the years he didn't were rebuilding.  As a HC, he took the Vikes to 10-5 and a playoff appearance with Ponder as his QB.  Obviously, he'd get more looks if his D had performed better for the last 13 seconds last season and in the Cincy game this season, but failure of his defense to perform in a playoff game doesn't seem to have been a bar to Dennis Allen.

 

So why is that?  I'm not saying "race" is the answer, but I think it would be naive to think that it doesn't factor in.  The owners of NFL teams are, for the most part, old white guys, and for the most part, all of us (black white M F) are simply more comfortable with people who remind us of ourselves in some way.  Mostly we aren't even consciously aware of this kind of bias.

 

It wouldn't be a surprise to me if that question weighed on Frazier, as another season with a top ranked D and a playoff win apparently failed to get him so much as a phone call, while the Broncos traded away what? to get Payton out of retirement.  I would imagine there is an element of frustration there.  It's common advice for guys who have not made it as HC to take a year off before taking another position, so that they can be sure they have time to do a thorough "lessons learned".  That might apply to Frazier, as well.

 

As an immediate reason to step away and at this time, I'm not sure.  I would guess, that either there was going to be a change in the defense that he wasn't comfortable with - Joe Danna I think was brought in from Houston and Al Holcomb, whose longest experience was as LB coach of the Panthers, in part because the Bills want to utilize their safeties and LB a bit differently.  Maybe Frazier isn't comfortable with that? 

 

It's also possible that McDermott decided that he was going to call defensive plays next season, and Frazier understandably sees that as a demotion. 

 

Then there's the possibility that there are medical or family reasons.  After listening to Beane's entire presser, I personally think that is less likely.  The whole bit about he doesn't want to retire and Beane isn't sure if he'll be coaching with the Bills in 2024 just doesn't sound like a guy who asked for leave for those reasons, but that's entirely a personal opinion.
 

 

i think you are onto something with what happened within the bills org, but i think LF won't get HC looks because like KC's OC, he's seen as not really being the guy who runs the D, or at the very least that he doesn't run the D well without the influence of his HC.  I think that's correct, and i think w mcd being more involved we will look better in 2023

[HappyDays]

51 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

You can't win the Superbowl shutting down top offenses now. You might have one game in a post season where you do it... might. But to make a deep post season run you are going to have to win on offense. 

 

I'm not asking us to shut down the Bengals or the Chiefs. I'm asking to at least slow them down and make it difficult. Get some punches in. Don't just sit back and let them bleed you out slowly. The Chiefs didn't shut down the Bengals, but they held them to 20 points in a game where their offense wasn't performing at its best. They got two interceptions and several sacks. That's a far cry from 27 points scored in 3 quarters. And yes we had injuries and general talent issues in that game, but you can't honestly say the Chiefs defense was that much more talented than us across the board even with our injuries. Coaching was the biggest difference.

 

51 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

It is also why blaming the defense for Cincy and giving the atrocious offensive display a pass won't wash. The Bills are going nowhere in the playoffs whoever the coach is, whatever the defense does, if they can't execute better offensively. 

 

I don't see anyone giving the offense a pass. The defense couldn't have possibly held the Bengals below 10 points, no question. But likewise to what you're saying the offense's awful performance doesn't excuse the defenses's awful performance. And the defense making it look easy for our opponent is a 3 year trend now. At a certain point the coaching has to be held accountable when there are wide open receivers all over the field and no hint of a pass rush.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I think the 13 seconds debacle demonstrated beyond question that our offense is good enough to get to the Championship game. 

And the defense isn't.

[Chaos]

53 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

  I mean who in this league gets to decide to step away from a Coordinator position for what essentially amounts to a sabatical?  I've never heard of this

This seems like a built in distraction for the entire 2023 season.  I am really not able to make sense the concept of this sabatical. 

[newcam2012]

5 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I think the 13 seconds debacle demonstrated beyond question that our offense is good enough to get to the Championship game. 

Did you see the offense against Cinci? They were basically a very healthy unit. 

 

The old saying is you are only as good as your last game. Beane has used this phrase several times. However, he failed to give that massage in his end of season presser. Hmmm...

[Chaos]

Just now, newcam2012 said:

Did you see the offense against Cinci? They were basically a very healthy unit. 

 

The old saying is you are only as good as your last game. Beane has used this phrase several times. However, he failed to give that massage in his end of season presser. Hmmm...

I did not say they were good enough to get to every championship game.  The defense has not demontrated the ability to carry a team that far.  Imagine if the headline of this article was "Josh Allen to take a year off".   Zero people would say "time for the defense to shine and take us to the promised land"