Doc Brown Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 Yeah I'm jealous of Daboll's success. Making the divisional round with the second ranked offense and defense with the sixth toughest schedule in the NFL while overcoming big time injuries to key players on defense is just an incredible job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 9-7-1. Why would you have jelly on your face for that? He has a long way to go to be compared to McDermott. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjv Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 Perhaps Hodgins had something to do with the departure of Chad Hall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 15 hours ago, babulator said: People on here loved Kumerow for his ST ability, people thought Gabe was gonna be the 2nd coming, and Mckenzie was gonna be cheetah-esque. The reality is Kumerow is worthless (and finished the season hurt), Gabe was a massive disappointment, and I'm still unsure why we kept Isiah at all. Honestly, I thought Ray ray was the better choice, but I digress. There really is, there is no excuse for not keeping Hodgins. We kept him while injured, we were patient with his rehab, he started producing when healthy and given the opportunity. He's not a game breaker, but there's no excuse for not keeping him after all we did to keep him as long as we did. I have no issue with Daboll's success either, last I checked they'll be watching the SB too. I don’t totally believe Hodgins was hurt for two years. I thought they were stashing him. If so, that adds to your thoughts that they invested time in him. The Bills made Hodgins available to everyone for the 53rd spot on our roster. Rotational players that didn’t play on Defense. It was very odd to me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefan66 Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 It’s what happens when you have an elite team. Good players don’t make the roster and good coaches leave. Not bitter at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 13 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said: I never understood it. What was this obsession with guys like Kumerow or Gentry. Why did we allow Hodgins to get poached while we kinda panic returning Bease & Smoke. Shakir is hardly allowed to develop? So many odd decisions. Agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfronts Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 Yes, Daboll had unfinished business here with the bills 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 16 hours ago, Big Turk said: Did you see games that didn't include Minnesota? His high point was 4 catches for 42 yards outside of the 2 Minnesota games. So no, not that upset. He is a JAG with lots of opportunities there because they have no good WRs. I am not sure he was even as good as Robert Foster was here. Kinda hard to have better than 4 for 42 when the coaching staff isn’t playing you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlCowlingsTaxiService Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 Don’t be fooled … he’s a JAG on a team bereft of quality at the position.. if healthy, perhaps he could have had a role here, but he wasn’t solving our issues at WR2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 Giants finished 3rd in their division, with only a single win in it. Despite this, they made the playoffs because they NFC stinks. They were promptly pantsed and thus exposed as frauds by the Eagles. Now they have to back up the Brinks truck to pay their own Dak Prescott (who's far worse at QB)--or their RB, thus locking them into years of mediocrity either way. Why should anyone here be bothered by this? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 17 hours ago, Virgil said: While I know that McD was never leaving as our HC, nor am I calling for it, I still think about the rift between him and McD in the final year. With Dorsey's alleged struggles, and our inability to find a solid WR2 on the team, the Hodgins thing bothers me more. We weren't so flush with talent that cracking our depth chart was hard. Hell, we brought back Beasley and Smoke. So how did we miss on the opportunity that Hodgins was so badly? I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter. 16 hours ago, Virgil said: Don’t bring up Teller, it’s still too soon. However, Beane has openly admitted to messing that one up Not in the least - Daboll deserved his chance and we will see how it goes moving forward. Fans here did nothing but criticize Daboll for play calling and then suddenly love it when it was someplace else. The truth is teams starting figuring him out late in the season and the Giants outperformed expectations early and then maxed out luck and talent much like 2019 and 2020 with the Bills. Hodgins is an average WR on a team with no WR talent. If he remained on the Bills - he was still no more than a #6 WR that struggled to get open. Most games with the Giants he was completely invisible getting a couple of catches. He did seem to show up versus Minnesota for them, but other than that he was a nothing. It is ok to bring up Teller - much like Hodgins - he left Buffalo and fell into a great situation for him. His first year in Cleveland- Teller was bad - to the point most fans thought he was getting cut - much like his struggles in Buffalo. Then they brought in an OL coach and OC that fit him and he excelled. That was not happening in Buffalo because no matter the Bills were going to be a pass first team and even as an all pro - Teller is barely average in pass protection- especially late in games when teams can pin their ears back and are not worried about the run. Be happy for the players - neither was going to do anything in Buffalo. It is ok for people to find a scheme and become a better player. It is ok for a player low on the depth chart to go to a bad team and be higher up and get a chance - be happy and “LET IT GO”. There is nothing wrong with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Einstein said: Kinda hard to have better than 4 for 42 when the coaching staff isn’t playing you. He got a lot of playing time, what are you talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: Hodgins is an average WR Is he though? Based on what? Just because the coaches wouldn't give him an opportunity? Look at what he did when he got an opportunity... Hodgins: 0.3 receptions, 2.5 yards per snap Diggs: 0.1 receptions, 1.7 yards per snap Davis: 0.05 receptions, 0.9 yard per snap McKenzie: 0.07 receptions, 0.9 yard per snap Per snap in Buffalo (opportunity), Hodgins outperformed EVERY RECEIVER (at the least the top 4) on the team! What more did he need to do in order to receive a greater opportunity? When given a very limited chance, he performed. So how can we say he is an average WR? Based on what exactly? ------ Edited to add: if you include his Giants statistics per snap, his numbers go down a bit with a much larger snap count, but it STILL outperforms all but Diggs on a per-snap basis. Edited February 11, 2023 by Einstein 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 I have little to no faith in this staff's ability to recognize talent. They seem to value familiarity more. Daboll was sure to get grabbed up by some team. He earned that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 22 minutes ago, Big Turk said: He got a lot of playing time, what are you talking about? See my post above. He had more receptions and more yards per snap (opportunity) than every WR on the Bills (when with the Bills). If you include his Giants time, he has more receptions and more yards per reception than every WR on the Bills except Diggs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 (edited) Actually I am quite happy to see Daboll do so well. Daboll coached under two of the best foorball minds ever (Bellichick and Saban) and both had nothing but great things to say about him. As I recall, Josh Allen spoke quite highly of him as well. The Giant players seem to be crazy about him too. Virgil, the man coached Jalen Hurts, Tua, and Mac Jones. I am thinking that however hated those three are on this board (which I fully understand), this is something to brag about. I always felt as if Daboll was underrated on TSW but that is jmo. Daboll is a good, solid coach and seemingly a great guy. While I did appreciate his ability, I would place him just a step below Steve Sarkisian, who I wish was coaching the Bills, but I doubt if they would match the salary he makes at Texas. Edited February 11, 2023 by Bill from NYC 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Einstein said: See my post above. He had more receptions and more yards per snap (opportunity) than every WR on the Bills (when with the Bills). If you include his Giants time, he has more receptions and more yards per reception than every WR on the Bills except Diggs. Yes...simply in a place where they had no WRs so he got playing time and balls thrown to him by default What's next, arguing Robert Foster should be back on the Bills? Hodgins didn't even come close to having the season Foster had with the Bills. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihilarian Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 Good for him. NY is a tough place to be a HC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Digg? Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Einstein said: See my post above. He had more receptions and more yards per snap (opportunity) than every WR on the Bills (when with the Bills). If you include his Giants time, he has more receptions and more yards per reception than every WR on the Bills except Diggs. To me this is manipulating stats to fit what you want it to fit. Let’s be honest to have any stat that has Hodgins rated higher than Diggs does not pass the smell test 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 Not really - more happy for both. Gotta admit - once in awhile, I think that we probably did have a better HC on our staff. I don't think there was any way we could have made him OUR HC - it would have been dramatic and weird to fire McD and elevate Daboll to the top job. But I also think that's a hot take. Daboll had a great year, but who knows if he'll be consistent. He had some things go his way this year. And I'm generally happy w/ McD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Big Turk said: Yes...simply in a place where they had no WRs so he got playing time and balls thrown to him by default His numbers per snaps with the BILLS, were higher than every other WR on the team. When he saw the field in a Bills uniform, he put up greater numbers than every other WR on the Bills squad per snap. And its not as if we have Cinci's WR core. We have a middling WR group outside of Diggs. The idea that Hodgins shouldn't have seen the field because McKenzie or Kumerow or Davis is silly to me. And the numbers prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 52 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said: To me this is manipulating stats to fit what you want it to fit So... which number was manipulated? The answer is none of them. I think you're just surprised that his per snap production is as high as it is. No one is saying Hodgins is as good as Diggs. What is being stated is that when he was given an opportunity, Hodgins produced. And the numbers show it. So to give him less than 20 snaps in a season where you had two WR's on IR, another WR whose hands resembled bricks, and Mckenzie.... is odd. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 14 minutes ago, Einstein said: His numbers per snaps with the BILLS, were higher than every other WR on the team. When he saw the field in a Bills uniform, he put up greater numbers than every other WR on the Bills squad per snap. And its not as if we have Cinci's WR core. We have a middling WR group outside of Diggs. The idea that Hodgins shouldn't have seen the field because McKenzie or Kumerow or Davis is silly to me. And the numbers prove it. I would bet any amount of money that Davis' next contract will exceed Hodgins' next contract. I don't even like Davis that much but if you are just looking at stats to try to prove Hodgins is a better receiver than Davis you are not using sound analysis. Hodgins will perennially live on the edge of a 53 man roster/practice squad. Davis will perennially be a top 4 WR for some team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 13 minutes ago, HappyDays said: to prove Hodgins is a better receiver than Davis I genuinely have no idea how you got that impression based on what I said. But being that you did, let me attempt to rephrase so as to avoid confusion. The idea that Hodgins shouldn't have seen the field because we have a WR group behind Diggs of McKenzie, Kumerow, and Davis is silly to me. Would a line-up of Diggs, Davis, Hodgins and McKenzie be any worse? Likely not. PS, if you want to talk to people who actually think Hodgins is better than Davis. 2022 PFF Rankings: Isaiah Hodgins 76.6 Gabe Davis 65.8 Isaiah McKenzie 64.2 And I don't agree that Hodgins will perennially be a roster cut. I think he is firmly on the 53 now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 No. I'm happy for them. Why shouldn't I be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAl2526 Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 Not at all. Regarding Daboll, I think it's easier for a really good coach to create some instant success as long as there is a modicum of talent on the team, than for a really good coach to emerge from that small group of teams that are really good and win the Super Bowl. Zac Taylor and Andy Reid are obviously very good coaches. There are a few other too that are trying to get in the big game from the AFC every year. Please don't read that as complacency that Buffalo has only made it to the divisional round for a while now. I'm just saying that McDermott had quick success in Buffalo too, and quick success doesn't necessarily mean Daboll is a better head coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never NEVER Give-up Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 I love Daboll, but being in NY helped him get COTY. Hodgins? - I am thrilled for him. However, he's not as good as Davis, Shakir or Kumerow (not to mention Beasley). Getting plucked off of PS was inevitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 34 minutes ago, Einstein said: So... which number was manipulated? The answer is none of them. I think you're just surprised that his per snap production is as high as it is. No one is saying Hodgins is as good as Diggs. What is being stated is that when he was given an opportunity, Hodgins produced. And the numbers show it. So to give him less than 20 snaps in a season where you had two WR's on IR, another WR whose hands resembled bricks, and Mckenzie.... is odd. come on--"production per snap" is meaningless when you play 16 snaps for your whole time with a team. The guy caught 4 passes for a measly 10 yards per... he has built a career on the Giants. He was an absolute zero on the Bills. Comparing to Diggs or Davis while he was on the Bills is complete nonsense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 27 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: He was an absolute zero on the Bills. Because of a lack of opportunity. His time on the Giants has proven that. Im not saying Hodgins is Brady quality, but your way of thinking is analogous to saying "Brady shouldn't start for the Patriots in 2001 because he was a zero for them in 2000." Well, yeah, he wasn't given the opportunity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 at least Bean made the tough move of holding Chad Hall accountable for his (Bean’s) inability to get a top WR and waiving of Hodgins—while letting McD and Dorsey’s putrid play calling off the hook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 31 minutes ago, Einstein said: Because of a lack of opportunity. His time on the Giants has proven that. Im not saying Hodgins is Brady quality, but your way of thinking is analogous to saying "Brady shouldn't start for the Patriots in 2001 because he was a zero for them in 2000." Well, yeah, he wasn't given the opportunity. well I didn’t even hint at anything like that. You are the one stretching a 4 catch career into “the most productive on the Bills” or whatever your point was. That’s a joke. maybe he should have gotten a better shot here but he didn’t. He didn’t exist, contributed nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: well I didn’t even hint at anything like that. You are the one stretching a 4 catch career into “the most productive on the Bills” or whatever your point was. That’s a joke. maybe he should have gotten a better shot here but he didn’t. I said his per-snap production is the best of all the Bills receivers. That doesnt mean he is the best WR. It means it warrants a closer look. It means it warrants more playing time to see if his production stays as good over more snaps. And guess what? He got more playing time with the Giants and his production stayed good. 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: He didn’t exist, contributed nothing. Because of the lack of opportunity. It's so ridiculous for you to even write that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyCallMeAndy Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 23 hours ago, Virgil said: While I know that McD was never leaving as our HC, nor am I calling for it, I still think about the rift between him and McD in the final year. With Dorsey's alleged struggles, and our inability to find a solid WR2 on the team, the Hodgins thing bothers me more. We weren't so flush with talent that cracking our depth chart was hard. Hell, we brought back Beasley and Smoke. So how did we miss on the opportunity that Hodgins was so badly? I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter. Here is what I think: McD is better than Dabs and Davis is better than Hodgins until proven otherwise, and they are a long way away from proving anything. 4 minutes ago, Einstein said: I said his per-snap production is the best of all the Bills receivers. That doesnt mean he is the best WR. It means it warrants a closer look. It means it warrants more playing time to see if his production stays as good over more snaps. And guess what? He got more playing time with the Giants and his production stayed good. Because of the lack of opportunity. It's so ridiculous for you to even write that. Because he couldn’t beat out Davis for the flank, McKenzie for the slot, or Kumerow for the SP Ace. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, Einstein said: I said his per-snap production is the best of all the Bills receivers. That doesnt mean he is the best WR. It means it warrants a closer look. It means it warrants more playing time to see if his production stays as good over more snaps. And guess what? He got more playing time with the Giants and his production stayed good. Because of the lack of opportunity. It's so ridiculous for you to even write that. Then why post a fake stat?: "Per snap in Buffalo (opportunity), Hodgins outperformed EVERY RECEIVER (at the least the top 4) on the team!" .....in order to pretend he had ANY sort of production, let alone be compared to the actual receiving corps. By your logic, Mike Vrabel: 16 snaps, 12 catches (.75 per), 12 TDs (.75 per)...was the greatest receiver to ever play the game. leave it at " he never got a chance here". the rest of your posts on this are absurd. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Then why post a fake stat?: "Per snap in Buffalo (opportunity), Hodgins outperformed EVERY RECEIVER (at the least the top 4) on the team!" .....in order to pretend he had ANY sort of production, let alone be compared to the actual receiving corps. By your logic, Mike Vrabel: 16 snaps, 12 catches (.75 per), 12 TDs (.75 per)...was the greatest receiver to ever play the game. leave it at " he never got a chance here". the rest of your posts on this are absurd. It is no way a fake stat. Per snap data is common in statistical analysis. Its really the ONLY way to analyze a player when they have not been given an opportunity. It shows what they have done with the limited amount of opportunity they have been given. Everyone knows the limitations of the stat and the adjust their expectations accordingly. I'm sorry you didn't know this but it doesn't make it absurd. PS, I don't want to spam the board with this debate so I wont respond anymore. You can have the last word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 28 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said: Because he couldn’t beat out Davis for the flank, McKenzie for the slot, or Kumerow for the SP Ace. That's the age old question. Did the player not beat out the competition, or did the evaluators fail at evaluating who the better player was? Lets not forget that this is the same coach that traded the Patrick Mahomes pick (or are we still pretending that Whaley did that?), moved Wyatt Teller for a bag of balls, and have wasted numerous defensive draft picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 3 minutes ago, Einstein said: That's the age old question. Did the player not beat out the competition, or did the evaluators fail at evaluating who the better player was? Lets not forget that this is the same coach that traded the Patrick Mahomes pick (or are we still pretending that Whaley did that?), moved Wyatt Teller for a bag of balls, and have wasted numerous defensive draft picks. Mahomes Teller Hodgins One of these things is not like the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 12 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Mahomes Teller Hodgins One of these things is not like the other. Not yet anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 27 minutes ago, Einstein said: It is no way a fake stat. Per snap data is common in statistical analysis. Its really the ONLY way to analyze a player when they have not been given an opportunity. It shows what they have done with the limited amount of opportunity they have been given. Everyone knows the limitations of the stat and the adjust their expectations accordingly. I'm sorry you didn't know this but it doesn't make it absurd. PS, I don't want to spam the board with this debate so I wont respond anymore. You can have the last word. All NFL stats have minimums to be included. Otherwise, as I pointed out, you end up with Mike Vrabel in your cohort. I think you know this, but you painted yourself into a corner--an unforced error. Weird hill to die on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streetkings01 Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Hodgins is to the Giants what Justin Hunter was to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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