For the Dorsey Haters

[Billsfan1972]

50 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

I do agree with the thought process that Allen gets a little to greedy. We need to take our shots but I also like controlling the ball more and keeping it out of the opposing O's hands.

 

 

And when Chase, Jefferson, Evans, Adams, Brown, Williams, Lamb and others make those catches the QB is hailed for a great pass.

 

At worst an incompletion. 

1 hour ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

Espn just said Waddle had three drops. The one was on our 28. Maybe a TD maybe a FG. Either the way we won by 3. He makes those catches, we’re in trouble. 

I remember the first.  The second was a great defensive play where the DB got his hand on the ball and Romo agreed on the replay.  What was the tird?

[Buckets]

A little off topic, after each of his sketchy performances during his interview Josh mentions "learning from the mistakes". Is he just a slow learner?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, Santana said:

It's not Just Dorsey and it's not just Allen...It's both and it's probably more on Allen honestly. I've been watching this all season very very closely and Allen often times just refuses to take any underneath throws or layups. On Sunday there were 2x when he had guys open underneath and took the deeper throws and it paid off but he ends up forcing so much that the turnovers are sure to happen. Dorsey needs to call more running plays to nullify that part of Josh's game.

But I thought Dorsey didn't know how to "scheme guys open" or design "layups" for this offense?

 

That's what I'm told. 

[CEN-CAL17]

Every now and then you have to reach into your bag of tricks….

 

Daboll took the entire bag and obviously left Dorsey with nothing.  I really don’t mind his play calling.

 

other than I can call every run play and there has been nearly zero if not zero times I have said, “what a play design”, 

 

Its line up and run the play.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

1 minute ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

Every now and then you have to reach into your bag of tricks….

 

Daboll took the entire bag and obviously left Dorsey with nothing.  I really don’t mind his play calling.

 

other than I can call every run play and there has been nearly zero if not zero times I have said, “what a play design”, 

 

Its line up and run the play.

 

 Every time Diggs goes out(after almost every reception) they run the ball. Every...Single....Time.

 

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

12 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

Every now and then you have to reach into your bag of tricks….

 

Daboll took the entire bag and obviously left Dorsey with nothing.  I really don’t mind his play calling.

 

other than I can call every run play and there has been nearly zero if not zero times I have said, “what a play design”, 

 

Its line up and run the play.

And yet, in 2023, they score the 2nd most points in the league. 

 

And it takes Michael Jordan at QB and Andy Reid who has 35 years of NFL Offensive Coaching experience to do that. 

 

And they score 1 point more per game. 

[dpberr]

This team knows now knows where the gas pedal is on both sides of the ball, however it behaves very much like a teen driver - still having difficulty on inherently knowing/feeling when to hit the gas and when to lay off it.  

 

There are some games where that finesse is almost perfect, and others where it's a mess.  

 

 

 

 

 

  

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Seems those 2 picks were on the wideouts yesterday. I’m taking a bomb to single coverage Diggs or Davis over a 3 yard check down every day. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

11 hours ago, Chaos said:

And yesterday was pretty good he led the offense to 34 points against a pretty good defense.  And Shakir (drop 7) Knox (drop 4) and McDermott (not taking a field goal) left another 14 points on the field.  

Not kicking the first field goal was uber aggressive, what was in 4th and 3?  You take the first points.  

 

I think psychotically it set the tone, we are going to rush them.  Maybe the team "collectively" saw the line and thought it would be a cakewalk.  . One of the reasons we had so many long bombs.  That is a fan mentality, not a winning HC mentality.

[Drew21PA]

1 hour ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 He threw the same ball, in the same way, to Brown the week before. He threw it up there and gave his guy a 1 on 1 shot. Brown screwed it up by breaking off the route, then didn't knock the ball down, but the worst of it is he ran right by Howard, failing to tackle him. Howard caught it at the 3 and returned it to Buffalo's 48. If he tackles him where he caught it Miami is pinned deep in its own territory. 

 

 

 

 I've seen zero creativity from the offense this year also. 

 

 

 

 I think it's been Dorsey's offensive philosophy to be really aggressive. He may not be a good pairing with Josh, who is already an aggressive passer to begin with.

 

 

 

I think you are right they wouldn’t have scored points there for sure - punted on a 3 and out

 

glad we won - I don’t see this stuff happening this week or against KC 

[Brand J]

Didn’t realize how open Shakir was on his drop, a better ball there and it’s an easy TD. Same with the go ball to Gabe up the sideline that was bobbled in the air. No QB hits them all, but the Shakir one should’ve been a layup. Oh and the John Brown INT was a curious throw. Brown had nothing but green grass in the direction he was running but Allen threw it towards the sideline and he got mixed up. For those who say that INT wasn’t on Allen, listen to McD’s presser, he disagrees. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by JayBaller10

[RoyBatty is alive]

45 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

Every now and then you have to reach into your bag of tricks….

 

Daboll took the entire bag and obviously left Dorsey with nothing.  I really don’t mind his play calling.

 

other than I can call every run play and there has been nearly zero if not zero times I have said, “what a play design”, 

 

Its line up and run the play.

You can tell when it is going to be a designed run to a RB almost every time.  Josh's ball handling to running backs is dreadful, slow and telegraphed for a mile.  Maybe he is too adverse to fumbling (another topic in itself) but he had no legerdemain on handoffs, he would struggle mightily as a magician.  That is one thing he really needs to work on and start by watching Brady.

Edited January 17, 2023 by RoyBatty is alive

[Boatdrinks]

45 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

Every now and then you have to reach into your bag of tricks….

 

Daboll took the entire bag and obviously left Dorsey with nothing.  I really don’t mind his play calling.

 

other than I can call every run play and there has been nearly zero if not zero times I have said, “what a play design”, 

 

Its line up and run the play.

Have to agree on the design part- last time I thought that was probably the Rams game. Daboll is a superior OC

[The Wiz]

11 hours ago, GETTOTHE50 said:

Calling a deep route for JA17 is like putting smack two inches away from a heroin addict's face.

 

Hes going to take the shot every single time.

 

Dorsey is an enabler as far as im concerned.

 

[TN Bills Fan]

It really is ok to question Josh.  The bromance won’t end.  He was 2nd in interceptions this year and 3rd in fumbles.  He had 2 of each on Sunday.  That’s Not good enough.  Although Dorsey does deserve some of the blame.  Motion will tell the Qb if it is man or zone and he rarely uses it.  Odd when Josh is the best in the league against man and the worst against zone.

[Scott7975]

10 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

go to every clip where they show highlighted WR's. This is what I am referring to. There has to be screen audibles in play here against blitzing teams. Presnap, Josh is given a few options to move from plays.

 

17 seconds. only 3 receiving routs.. What the living heck is up with that?

 

Our screen plays never work.  They are always blown up.

[RoyBatty is alive]

2 minutes ago, TN Bills Fan said:

It really is ok to question Josh.  The bromance won’t end.  He was 2nd in interceptions this year and 3rd in fumbles.  He had 2 of each on Sunday.  That’s Not good enough.  Although Dorsey does deserve some of the blame.  Motion will tell the Qb if it is man or zone and he rarely uses it.  Odd when Josh is the best in the league against man and the worst against zone.

Actually he really had three fumbles. The first wasnt technically but he lost the ball out of bounds very early in the game.  Them the laughable strip sack for a TD (which kept the game close) and the fumble recovered by Brown.  

 

For years pre McDermott this team rarely/never used motion.  It isnt that difficult, not an incredible concept but takes time and coaching.  We have reasonable  player stability, we should use it more often imo.

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 He threw the same ball, in the same way, to Brown the week before. He threw it up there and gave his guy a 1 on 1 shot. Brown screwed it up by breaking off the route, then didn't knock the ball down, but the worst of it is he ran right by Howard, failing to tackle him. Howard caught it at the 3 and returned it to Buffalo's 48. If he tackles him where he caught it Miami is pinned deep in its own territory. 

 

 

 

 I've seen zero creativity from the offense this year also. 

 

 

 

 I think it's been Dorsey's offensive philosophy to be really aggressive. He may not be a good pairing with Josh, who is already an aggressive passer to begin with.

 

 

 

Yeah, Daboll may have been a bit of Yin to Josh’s Yang… I’d like to see Dorsey do some different things more than Josh. Just don’t see the scheme things I saw with Daboll. Anyway, they just can’t turn the football over. If they clean that up they will be in the SuperBowl. 

[Nuncha]

12 hours ago, RoscoeParrish said:

 

Josh's Greed is part of what makes him Great.  If he completed the deep passes nobody would have noticed or cared about the other the wide open receivers.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Nuncha

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

8 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Yeah, Daboll may have been a bit of Yin to Josh’s Yang… I’d like to see Dorsey do some different things more than Josh. Just don’t see the scheme things I saw with Daboll. Anyway, they just can’t turn the football over. If they clean that up they will be in the SuperBowl. 

 

 I agree. Daboll may have had his share of WTF moments with play calling, but the play calling was creative and had purpose. I think the biggest difference in the 2 is Daboll has a much better feel for the game and what defenses are trying to do against them. Both come with experience, which Daboll has way more of.

 

 

[HappyDays]

35 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Not kicking the first field goal was uber aggressive, what was in 4th and 3?  You take the first points.

 

Yeah I didn't understand that all. Even against KC I would take points there. Against the Skylar Thompson led Dolphins taking points is a no brainer. It continues a trend I've seen across the NFL this year of head coaches losing faith in their team and pressing for points early.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 hours ago, Drew21PA said:

Wow.  Film session must have been awkward 

Dorsey gets it.

 

Josh gets it. 

[Billsfan1972]

For the umpteenth time, the first interception was on John Brown for cutting off the route (and then compounding it, by not tackling Howard at the 5 yard line).  The second bounced off Beasley's chest.  

 

Shakir was wide open and dropped a perfect pass that as stated in my thread cost the Bills probably 15 points and then the second int doesn't happen and in all liklihood the strip fumble (which was a helmet to helmet hit).  Gabe as always did too drop a long ball.  

 

 

[quinnearlysghost88]

3 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

So fire Dorsey and bring in a Norv Turner or Darrell Bevel type?

I was honestly hoping McDaniel would get fired. I think he’s a solid OC and could tweak Josh’s game to be more efficient with more calculated risk. 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Buckets said:

A little off topic, after each of his sketchy performances during his interview Josh mentions "learning from the mistakes". Is he just a slow learner?

Are you just a troll?

 

 

[quinnearlysghost88]

3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

For the umpteenth time, the first interception was on John Brown for cutting off the route (and then compounding it, by not tackling Howard at the 5 yard line).  The second bounced off Beasley's chest.  

 

Shakir was wide open and dropped a perfect pass that as stated in my thread cost the Bills probably 15 points and then the second int doesn't happen and in all liklihood the strip fumble (which was a helmet to helmet hit).  Gabe as always did too drop a long ball.  

 

 

I vaguely remember a strip sack going for a TD bc he didn’t protect the ball again. Was that Sunday? Or September…

[jethro_tull]

one game does not a body of work make.  

sean mcdermott-  keys to the kingdom

josh allen- kees to the kingdom 

ken dorsey- has not yet earned keys to the kingdom

animated icon twitter guy, go back home.  

[Logic]

Sometimes Josh Allen deserves criticism.

Sometimes Ken Dorsey deserves criticism.

Anyone who is only ever willing to criticize ONE of these guys is wrong. ALL of the fault and blame for failed plays or dormant stretches of offense do not belong to one or the other. Both mess up sometimes. That's the truth.

Any time someone points out a mistake that Josh makes, it shouldn't elicit a mob with pitchforks. He's an excellent quarterback and we all love him, but he doesn't turn water into wine. The hero worship really gets out of hand sometimes.

Likewise, Ken Dorsey has coordinated an offense that, overall, has been successful this season, as the #2 PPG and #2 DVOA rankings illustrate. Still, pointing out his instances of poor decision making or poor play calling should not elicit accusations of being a "negative Nancy".

Criticism is okay. No one is perfect. Not Josh, Not Dorsey. It's okay for fans to point out times where they mess up.

[Greybeard]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

For the umpteenth time, the first interception was on John Brown for cutting off the route (and then compounding it, by not tackling Howard at the 5 yard line).  The second bounced off Beasley's chest.  

 

Shakir was wide open and dropped a perfect pass that as stated in my thread cost the Bills probably 15 points and then the second int doesn't happen and in all liklihood the strip fumble (which was a helmet to helmet hit).  Gabe as always did too drop a long ball.  

 

 

   It does not look like it bounces off Beasley's chest.  It looks like it bounces off Holland's arm.  You have to see the view from the front.

 

https://www.miamidolphins.com/video/jevon-holland-gets-an-interception

[Billsfan1972]

15 minutes ago, Logic said:

Sometimes Josh Allen deserves criticism.

Sometimes Ken Dorsey deserves criticism.

Anyone who is only ever willing to criticize ONE of these guys is wrong. ALL of the fault and blame for failed plays or dormant stretches of offense do not belong to one or the other. Both mess up sometimes. That's the truth.

Any time someone points out a mistake that Josh makes, it shouldn't elicit a mob with pitchforks. He's an excellent quarterback and we all love him, but he doesn't turn water into wine. The hero worship really gets out of hand sometimes.

Likewise, Ken Dorsey has coordinated an offense that, overall, has been successful this season, as the #2 PPG and #2 DVOA rankings illustrate. Still, pointing out his instances of poor decision making or poor play calling should not elicit accusations of being a "negative Nancy".

Criticism is okay. No one is perfect. Not Josh, Not Dorsey. It's okay for fans to point out times where they mess up.

And then let me know why Bills receivers don't have many YAC?  Why are they not catching balls on the run and turning an yard pass into 25?

 

Where are the slants or successful screens? 

 

It's great to make this post, and there is some truth in it, just that you've made a statement and backed none of it up.   

Edited January 17, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[Logic]

1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And then let me know why Bills receivers don't have many YAC?  Why are they not catching balls on the run and turning an yard pass into 25?

 

Where are the slants or successful screens? 

 

Were both Josh's ints his fault or the receivers (hint I blame Brown & Beasley)?

 

It's great to make this post, and there is some truth in it, just that you've made a statement and backed none of it up.   

I'm not really sure what "backup" you want me to provide for the statement "both the OC and QB are fallible humans who sometimes make mistakes, and it's okay to point that out".

I would think such a statement would receive universal agreement, unless one's position is that either Josh Allen or Ken Dorsey are, in fact, infallible and never make mistakes.

[teef]

3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And then let me know why Bills receivers don't have many YAC?  Why are they not catching balls on the run and turning an yard pass into 25?

 

Where are the slants or successful screens? 

 

It's great to make this post, and there is some truth in it, just that you've made a statement and backed none of it up.   

This is a weird reply. 

[Santana]

3 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

But I thought Dorsey didn't know how to "scheme guys open" or design "layups" for this offense?

 

That's what I'm told. 

Haha nah I don't think it's anything with scheming as far as check downs go. But there are definitely scheming issues from Dorsey. The lack of rhythm and predictability in this offense is embarrassingly obvious at this point. The biggest problem with Dorsey, to me is not corralling Josh Allen and giving him the run game that he desperately needs to minimize his turnovers. Dorsey needs to realize that Josh Allen won't do the small things on his own. He would throw the ball 20+ yards every play if it were up to him. I think the main thing that needs to be driven home with Allen is that he's not playing at Wyoming anymore and this isn't 2018. There's so much talent on this team (especially in the backfield) that all he needs to do is get the playmakers the ball...quickly and everything else will fall right into place. 

[quinnearlysghost88]

24 minutes ago, Logic said:

Sometimes Josh Allen deserves criticism.

Sometimes Ken Dorsey deserves criticism.

Anyone who is only ever willing to criticize ONE of these guys is wrong. ALL of the fault and blame for failed plays or dormant stretches of offense do not belong to one or the other. Both mess up sometimes. That's the truth.

Any time someone points out a mistake that Josh makes, it shouldn't elicit a mob with pitchforks. He's an excellent quarterback and we all love him, but he doesn't turn water into wine. The hero worship really gets out of hand sometimes.

Likewise, Ken Dorsey has coordinated an offense that, overall, has been successful this season, as the #2 PPG and #2 DVOA rankings illustrate. Still, pointing out his instances of poor decision making or poor play calling should not elicit accusations of being a "negative Nancy".

Criticism is okay. No one is perfect. Not Josh, Not Dorsey. It's okay for fans to point out times where they mess up.

I was listening to some ESPN analysts who were baffled that after Hines runs back two TDs last week that we don’t have some exotic packages set up for him this week. 
 

I just think Dorsey’s ceiling is this. Our offense is very very straightforward. It’s a lot of Josh improvising and boring route trees. There isn’t a lot of different looks. 

[colin]

maimi blitzed early and then coverd for the most part in the 2nd half.  they got torched while blitzing and selective use of it in the 2nd worked really well for them all things considered.

 

we just need to find a couple ways to get more productive runs mixed in, first down to end the game was encouraging.  if we can mix our improved run game in a bit w the monster allen passes, and that means some allen runs too, no D in the nfl is hanging w us and it will cut down on the turnovers, especially sack fumbles.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 minutes ago, Santana said:

Haha nah I don't think it's anything with scheming as far as check downs go. But there are definitely scheming issues from Dorsey. The lack of rhythm and predictability in this offense is embarrassingly obvious at this point. The biggest problem with Dorsey, to me is not corralling Josh Allen and giving him the run game that he desperately needs to minimize his turnovers. Dorsey needs to realize that Josh Allen won't do the small things on his own. He would throw the ball 20+ yards every play if it were up to him. I think the main thing that needs to be driven home with Allen is that he's not playing at Wyoming anymore and this isn't 2018. There's so much talent on this team (especially in the backfield) that all he needs to do is get the playmakers the ball...quickly and everything else will fall right into place. 

No way that a Bills fan can argue Daboll didn't do that that. 

 

Daboll abandoned the run here all the time. 

 

I think fans should dial back on mentally staying in this place where Allen is a raw rookie who hasn't learned. 

 

The numbers would say he essentially is at peak production (~40-45 total TDs) for three straight seasons now. 

 

Maybe his passing gets better with age, but mentally he has improved his processing skills. 

[Logic]

9 minutes ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

I was listening to some ESPN analysts who were baffled that after Hines runs back two TDs last week that we don’t have some exotic packages set up for him this week. 
 

I just think Dorsey’s ceiling is this. Our offense is very very straightforward. It’s a lot of Josh improvising and boring route trees. There isn’t a lot of different looks. 

You may be right. 

Part of me wonders if Josh being amazing, in and of itself, is really enough to get the offense to 2nd in PPG. For instance, Joe Burrow and Justin Herbert are pretty excellent, and both have comparable (or in Burrow's case, superior) supporting offensive personnel, and yet the Bills scored 2.6 PPG more than the Bengals and 5.4 PPG more than the Chargers. How? Why? Is Josh just THAT much better than those guys? Maybe the answer is "yes". Or maybe Dorsey's play calling is better than many Bills fans give it credit for.

I have often had a hard time this season figuring out how much credit and blame to assign to Allen and how much credit and blame to assign to Dorsey (or, for that matter, the receivers and o-line) in any given week. It often feels like a "chicken or the egg" situation. Like when Josh makes a bad decision and throws a pick, did he do so because the gameplan was poor and guys weren't getting open and so he tried to force something that wasn't there? Maybe, but then I go back and re-watch the play in question, and there's often an open checkdown option underneath that Josh ignores. But then I ALSO don't know how Josh is coached/instructed on any given play, or what his reads are.

As fans, without knowing how the play was called or what Josh's progressions were, it's hard to know sometimes. But again, ultimately, you may be right. I won't pretend to know definitively. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Logic

[Brand J]

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

For the umpteenth time, the first interception was on John Brown for cutting off the route (and then compounding it, by not tackling Howard at the 5 yard line).  The second bounced off Beasley's chest.  

 

Shakir was wide open and dropped a perfect pass that as stated in my thread cost the Bills probably 15 points and then the second int doesn't happen and in all liklihood the strip fumble (which was a helmet to helmet hit).  Gabe as always did too drop a long ball.  

 

 

The first INT was not on Brown, I don’t know how or why that became the narrative here. Even McD put that on Josh. You also have to see the overhead view of the play to see what’s going on. I didn’t like the throw at the time, but looking back at the overhead view, it was there to be made… if Josh had led him properly. Brown had a field of green in the direction he was running (which was like a deep post), but Josh threw the ball towards the sideline, which got Brown all twisted up. There’s no way that INT was on Brown. 
 

The second pass hit a Dolphin’s arm, not Beasley’s chest, but that’s a bit on Cole for not driving back to the ball. Perhaps equal blame for Josh and Cole on that one. It wasn’t all that open of a route, which necessitated coming back to the ball. 
 

I would agree that Shakir should have caught that pass, but it wasn’t perfect. If you see the overhead view id the play again, he absolutely roasted his man and got on top of him quickly. A better (or perfect) throw hits him in stride for a TD, not one he had to slow up for. There was not another DB back there, it was a layup deep ball, but not the best throw. Still, Shakir absolutely should’ve caught it. 
 

The throw to Gabe deep along the sideline was also not the best, he had a step or two on his man and a better throw goes for 6. It was another ball he had to slow up for and it gave the defender a chance to break up the pass.
 

You’ve absolved Josh Allen of blame on all these passes, everything was perfect or dropped in your eyes, but that’s not the case. 

[Santana]

30 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

No way that a Bills fan can argue Daboll didn't do that that. 

 

Daboll abandoned the run here all the time. 

 

I think fans should dial back on mentally staying in this place where Allen is a raw rookie who hasn't learned. 

 

The numbers would say he essentially is at peak production (~40-45 total TDs) for three straight seasons now. 

 

Maybe his passing gets better with age, but mentally he has improved his processing skills. 

I mean, Daboll was awful with this too but this doesn't have anything to do with Daboll. Personally I don't think you can be mad at anyone (fans, whoever) when he's turning the ball over the exact same way he was when he was a rookie or in college. I love Josh Allen but he's turned the ball over damn near 35 times this year. It's a big problem whether you or I want to admit it. And yes, he is at peak production with 40-45TD's. I'm not saying he isn't playing at a high level. What I was saying is that it seems pretty obvious that at times Dorsey needs to save Josh Allen from Josh Allen. He's a great QB, my all-time favorite by far but that doesn't mean he's exempt from criticism. He's got a lot of the same qualities at Brett Favre when it comes to being a passer.

[Brand J]

9 minutes ago, Santana said:

I mean, Daboll was awful with this too but this doesn't have anything to do with Daboll. Personally I don't think you can be mad at anyone (fans, whoever) when he's turning the ball over the exact same way he was when he was a rookie or in college. I love Josh Allen but he's turned the ball over damn near 35 times this year. It's a big problem whether you or I want to admit it. And yes, he is at peak production with 40-45TD's. I'm not saying he isn't playing at a high level. What I was saying is that it seems pretty obvious that at times Dorsey needs to save Josh Allen from Josh Allen. He's a great QB, my all-time favorite by far but that doesn't mean he's exempt from criticism. He's got a lot of the same qualities at Brett Favre when it comes to being a passer.

It’s who he is and we’ve gotta hope the good outweighs the bad and that he’ll bring home trophies in the process! Correction on his amount of turnovers: he’s had 32 turnover worthy plays, but has turned it over 22 times. 10 fumbles weren’t recovered by the opposition.