Anyone else watching other games & daydreaming about how much easier their QB's have it???

[balln]

Just now, YattaOkasan said:

You mean his weakness is speed rush?  Yes I find that strange too. But bills have a type on OL.  Joe Marino said their average RAS is 9.3!  probably shave some off aged vet Saffold but he was athletic when he came out.

Why in the hell

can they not pick off defenders on screens. It’s woeful 

[YattaOkasan]

Just now, balln said:

It’s more than saffold is just overpaid. He is playing at a level where he shouldn’t be in the nfl. He’s AWFUL!

Lol well have to disagree on this point.  I think he’s average to just below. Need to find a good set of stats to reference.  But not in NFL is comical. You clearly don’t watch other teams enough let alone what backups look like.  

[balln]

Just now, YattaOkasan said:

Lol well have to disagree on this point.  I think he’s average to just below. Need to find a good set of stats to reference.  But not in NFL is comical. You clearly don’t watch other teams enough let alone what backups look like.  

His pff is 41. I know you don’t like pff. But no offense - no fan is going to be able to objectively produce stats for lineman 

 

how about - eye test. Basically every blown up offensive , negative play or penalty. Can be traced back to saffold getting abused. Both run and pass

[YattaOkasan]

Back to the OP. I think it’s how Josh plays. He throws when he sees separation as the ball travels that separation decreases and the YAC is diminished. In other offenses that are based on timing the ball is thrown before separation. When the ball gets there the separation is maximized and thus more YAC. I don’t know that Josh will ever be a high end YAC guy. I hope for average. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

The question for me is it Daboll/Dorsey or is it Josh? As others posted Mahommes takes the check down dump off frequently.  It seems Allen isn't willing to do that. He's certainly capable and has shown in the past he can play the dink and dunk game. I just feel ever since that KC playoff game he feels he needs to take more home run shots than just getting some positive yards.

We watch the games and we see guys open underneath. 

Another issue is this mentality that FGs are somehow a bad thing now. It's stupid.  Its still points. It feeds into this hero ball mentality and I think one of the reasons for more red zone turnovers this year. This is not college football where teams are putting up 40+ a game. League leaders in PPG is under 30. Yes you need TDs but 3 points on a drive is still a good drive even against Cincinnati and KC.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Ethan in Cleveland

[YattaOkasan]

Just now, balln said:

His pff is 41. I know you don’t like pff. But no offense - no fan is going to be able to objectively produce stats for lineman 

 

how about - eye test. Basically every blown up offensive , negative play or penalty. Can be traced back to saffold getting abused. Both run and pass

Yeah that’s the challenge is pff is the only source really. I think more OL focused peeps have some better ones though. But PFF also has morse at 51. I don’t think that checks out

[ToGoGo]

Grass is always greener on the other side. 

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

What sweet ride it is! Im loving this BIlls Offense,Defense, Special Teams, warts and all.  The only team that can beat the Bills is the Bills.  They need to clean up their game, it's playoff time.  Every Bills will say the same thing.  Last week there was 5 drops I believe.  Some third down killers.  Careless fumbles.   Befuddling interception.   We still won handily.  Now we are playing Chefs and Bengals.  Don't be sloppy.  Play Buffalo Bills A game football!  No one is beating that team!  Go Bills!

 

If Bills get lucky it may just be Bengals for rest of year if a team upsets Chiefs in playoffs.

[Billsfan1972]

Just now, YattaOkasan said:

Back to the OP. I think it’s how Josh plays. He throws when he sees separation as the ball travels that separation decreases and the YAC is diminished. In other offenses that are based on timing the ball is thrown before separation. When the ball gets there the separation is maximized and thus more YAC. I don’t know that Josh will ever be a high end YAC guy. I hope for average. 

Where's the separation on deep balls then?  Receivers are not open enough regardless (or make that contested catch, one needs to make).

[Chaos]

45 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I’d argue the Bills OL is solid when healthy, and they’re healthy now.  
 

Metrics can be cherry picked.  As I said above, Bills are Top 5 in pass block win rate. 
 

In regards to Allen having less to work with than Mahomes and Burrow… I think that’s probably accurate.  Remains to be seen how our Kromer-led run game factors in against peer contenders.. Not that we should become a running team, but it will be interesting to see if it translates in any meaningful way. 
 

The flip side of the coin is that our Defense is better than Cinci’s and much better than KC’s.  Do they show up in games like this?… because for all the investment, they didn’t last year when it mattered. 

Defense has its own question marks. 

[Simon]

2 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Back to the OP. I think it’s how Josh plays. He throws when he sees separation as the ball travels that separation decreases and the YAC is diminished. In other offenses that are based on timing the ball is thrown before separation. When the ball gets there the separation is maximized and thus more YAC. I don’t know that Josh will ever be a high end YAC guy. I hope for average. 

 

I think this was a fair "criticism" a year or two ago, but imo since then he's gotten much better at recognizing coverages, throwing with anticipation and putting the ball in spots before his receivers are all the way out of their breaks.

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

Our Offensive line isn’t very good. It hasn’t been very good at all. Having Josh Allen has made them look adequate

 

Offensive line has been channeling rushers to inside so Josh can get out of pocket and have additional half second to throw.

Josh does make it difficult with him for offense line since they can not always know where he is with him moving so much.

Of the offense line Josh is a bucking bull trying to be ridden which is somewhat appropriate.

[Don Otreply]

22 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And when Allen hit in both hands on a long play, surprise/surprise another Bills receiver couldn't hold on because a defender was there.

That doesn’t mean you stop trying…, 

[DapperCam]

13 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

It’s very alarming that a guy that tests so well from an athletic standpoint gets beat so much. 

He had back surgery in the offseason and was barely back in time for the season. That sort of thing can be a career killer.

[Freddie's Dead]

One issue to me is that Josh is just not hitting the long ball cleanly.  He underthrew SmokeY and McKittrick (for the INT).  I'd rather see him overthrow them once in a while to avoid the bad result.  The other issue is that our WR's/TE's just aren't making plays consistently.  Dropped balls, poor/incorrect routes, no YAC, none of which is on Josh.  Yet we keep winning.  If we eliminate the mistakes, we're going to dominate and win by 2-4 TD's again.  I'm looking for that tonight. 

[YattaOkasan]

1 minute ago, Simon said:

 

I think this was a fair "criticism" a year or two ago, but imo since then he's gotten much better at recognizing coverages, throwing with anticipation and putting the ball in spots before his receivers are all the way out of their breaks.

I guess. Trying to dissect this a bit is hard. First thing in my mind is his time to throw has stayed high. I think we also still run a ton of option routes which are not anticipation throws.
 

I actually don’t consider a criticism. Having the ability to wait until peeps have separation shows the ability to have great arm strength. Allows adjustment to post snap coverage changes. Lastly I think it’s how he can convert 3rd and Josh Allen’s. Hard to anticipate 3rd and long plays versus short plays

[oldmanfan]

I try to ignore the OP because he just posts stuff looking for attention.  But I am looking at some responses here and am amazed at the negativity.  The Bills are the #1 team in the AFC.  But reading some of you, we should probably just forfeit tonight and turn down being in the payoffs because we’re so horrible.

 

 

[YattaOkasan]

6 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Where's the separation on deep balls then?  Receivers are not open enough regardless (or make that contested catch, one needs to make).

Don’t disagree the WR aren’t holding their end of the bargain. I had them as 5-10 in the league before the year.  Now I think they are 10-14.  Crazy cause I still consider diggs top 5. An average WR2 would probably get them back to 5-10

[Simon]

1 minute ago, DapperCam said:

He had back surgery in the offseason and was barely back in time for the season. That sort of thing can be a career killer.

 

All of these same problems with his questionable feet and his poor work against athletics ends were there all throughout last year as well and have nothing to do with his back surgery.

[YattaOkasan]

1 minute ago, Simon said:

 

All of these same problems with his questionable feet and his poor work against athletics ends were there all throughout last year as well and have nothing to do with his back surgery.

Agree. Point might be that with back surgery he didn’t get the chance to correct them

[Simon]

1 minute ago, YattaOkasan said:

I guess. Trying to dissect this a bit is hard. First thing in my mind is his time to throw has stayed high. I think we also still run a ton of option routes which are not anticipation throws.
 

I actually don’t consider a criticism. Having the ability to wait until peeps have separation shows the ability to have great arm strength. Allows adjustment to post snap coverage changes. Lastly I think it’s how he can convert 3rd and Josh Allen’s. Hard to anticipate 3rd and long plays versus short plays

 

Yeah, that's why I put quotation marks around it. Just because it might not be the most optimal way to go about it doesn't necessarily make it a full blown "criticism".

As for the original question, I think this awful OLine and its frequently blown up passpro has him throwing off platform at odd angles so often that it probably really affects his accuracy and the YAC potential.

[YattaOkasan]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

Similarly to games they’ve lost last year and this year… Offensive line getting blasted throughout the game and Josh getting beat up in the process. 
 

Both the Miami and Jets loss the offensive line was putrid and contributed to their poor offensive performance. 
 

Think back to the Chiefs playoff game from last season, if Josh wasn’t a magician in avoiding the rush of Ingram who destroyed Brown for much of the game, there isn’t a 13 seconds to begin with. 

I put Miami on several misses from skill players. Dirting a throw to McK that gives us the lead. Even the strip sack was singeltary not being able to lock holland. 
 

jets was clearly interceptions. Yes josh got out of the pocket for one of them but it was clearly on him at that point. The second was from a clean pocket. Also tackling. Nah. I don’t pin those losses on the OL

1 minute ago, Simon said:

 

Yeah, that's why I put quotation marks around it. Just because it might not be the most optimal way to go about it doesn't necessarily make it a full blown "criticism".

As for the original question, I think this awful OLine and its frequently blown up passpro has him throwing off platform at odd angles so often that it probably really affects his accuracy and the YAC potential.

I see thanks. 
 

just check the stats on awful OL. I think it’s a similar “criticism”. Carried over from years past. Pressure rate is down a third this year. We were good at sack last year but bad at hurried pressure and hits. We’re now middle of the pack for all of them.  I think he’s getting a cleaner pocket. 
 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2022/advanced.htm
check the pressure tab

[Heavy Kevi]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

The Bills passing offense is not what maybe we want it to be but its pretty good.   The Bills score the second highest points per game in the league as an offense.  You are seeing "greener grass" but if you switched you would end up with a 500 team or one that is not close to making the playoffs.  Enjoy the ride this team is giving you is my advice!  Its a great ride...it is ok to talk about how they can improve but in this case you are kind of cherry picking.

 

Not really though.

 

Bills are 24th in the league in YAC. 

 

Bills lead the league in drops by WRs

 

Josh does have to do it all himself, and many other QBs have it MUCH easier. They have run games, decent Olines, more than 1 decent WR. It's not all that uncommon.

 

It's okay to admit things like this. The problems don't cease to exist just because the Bills are really good right now. Imagine how much better they could be with competent WR play. 

 

You know it's a real issue when your franchise QB on a really great team tells the GM to go sign practice squad players to contribute on GameDay (Beasley, Smoke) when your receiving corps isn't even banged up.

[Simon]

4 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

just check the stats on awful OL. I think it’s a similar “criticism”. Carried over from years past. Pressure rate is down a third this year. We were good at sack last year but bad at hurried pressure and hits. We’re now middle of the pack for all of them.  I think he’s getting a cleaner pocket. 
 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2022/advanced.htm
check the pressure tab

 

I've seen that and have a really hard time reconciling it with what we're actually seeing live on Sundays.

I think Allen has such a great pocket presence that he sees pressures and avoids them before they actually become pressures, resulting in a very deceptive (and subjective) number that places the Bills around 10th in the league. If you look at the number of times Allen has been forced to scramble on pass plays, the Bills are suddenly 3rd worst in the NFL, with #4 being significantly far behind them.

[Charles Romes]

I think most opposing fans are envious about the soft shells Josh constantly forces the defenses into. 

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again watching TB & seems Brady has all day and receivers running open.  Stidham throwing for 360 vs. SF and Adams making great catches.  Mahomes a ho hum 330 yard game and again a lot of easy passes.  Goff and Prescott too.

 

Maybe I'm cherry picking, but I seem to see too many great catches & easy throws by QB's, whereas Josh Allen often seems to have to do it all.

 

Am I being too hypercritical of the Bills offense?

 

I do watch other games and see receivers haul in contested balls that I think our guys don't manage, and I do feel envious.

 

On the other hand, it has to be realized that there's some cause-and-effect involved.  Brady and some other QB play in timing offenses, hit your drop, make the throw most of the time.  Since these are often shallow/intermediate throws, it kind of opens up the deep game.

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, Simon said:

 

I've seen that and have a really hard time reconciling it with what we're actually seeing live on Sundays.

I think Allen has such a great pocket presence that he sees pressures and avoids them before they actually become pressures, resulting in a very deceptive (and subjective) number that places the Bills around 10th in the league. If you look at the number of times Allen has been forced to scramble on pass plays, the Bills are suddenly 3rd worst in the NFL, with #4 being significantly far behind them.

A general theme with the Bills is that Allen is so good, it hides all kinds of deficiencies elsewhere on the team. 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

The one guy I always watch and wish he were on the Bills is Austin Ekeler. I swear that he catches 3-yard passes, and every time turns it into a 10-yard gain with a little wiggle, broken tackle, or dive forward. 
 

I thought Hines would be that guy for us, and he has flashed (had a huge third down conversion last game in the red zone where he made a guy miss on a check down), but not with any consistency.  Eckler does that literally every time he touches the ball. 

[UKBillFan]

I love Josh but do think he could make things easier for himself at times. For the most part, we seem to have players open in the check down area but he constantly looks longer. Just would like him to mix it up a bit more in terms of taking what defenses offer. And the more we move the ball short, the defense will have to come up, opening opportunities for deep passes.

Edited January 2, 2023 by UKBillFan

[Beck Water]

10 minutes ago, Heavy Kevi said:

Bills are 24th in the league in YAC. 

 

Part of that is, Josh seeks the deep throws and when he does take the checkdown the space has closed around the checkdown receiver.  QBs who get lots of YAC are taking the checkdown early in the play when there's a 10 yd cushion.

 

10 minutes ago, Heavy Kevi said:

Bills lead the league in drops by WRs

 

I don't doubt you, but I'd like to know where the stat on this is 'cuz, can't find.  Link please?

 

10 minutes ago, Heavy Kevi said:

You know it's a real issue when your franchise QB on a really great team tells the GM to go sign practice squad players to contribute on GameDay (Beasley, Smoke) when your receiving corps isn't even banged up.

 

Um....the reason the GM is being asked to sign guys off the couch (not practice squad) is because we have 2 receivers on IR

 

5 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

I thought Hines would be that guy for us, and he has flashed (had a huge third down conversion last game in the red zone where he made a guy miss on a check down), but not with any consistency.  Eckler does that literally every time he touches the ball. 

 

I had hopes for Hines also, but when a guy is buried on the depth chart for a "meh" team (#4 or 5) at both receiver and RB, it doesn't argue that he's Eckler or CMC in waiting.

 

3 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

I love Josh but do think he could make things easier for himself at times. For the most part, we seem to have players open in the check down area but he constantly looks longer. Just would like him to mix it up a bit more in terms of taking what defenses offer. And the more we move the ball short, the defense will come to come up, opening opportunities for deep passes.

 

I would like this 1000x if I could

2 hours ago, Pete said:

That seems to be the case sometimes, but often Josh has plenty of time to throw.  That interception last week for example.  He had 5 seconds and couldn't find any WR with seperation.  That is often the case IMO.  WRs must win their 1 on 1 matchups

 

Which INT last week are you talking about?

Edited January 2, 2023 by Beck Water

[YattaOkasan]

9 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I've seen that and have a really hard time reconciling it with what we're actually seeing live on Sundays.

I think Allen has such a great pocket presence that he sees pressures and avoids them before they actually become pressures, resulting in a very deceptive (and subjective) number that places the Bills around 10th in the league. If you look at the number of times Allen has been forced to scramble on pass plays, the Bills are suddenly 3rd worst in the NFL, with #4 being significantly far behind them.

I agree josh is amazing at pocket presence and it’s not talked about enough. So I think you convinced

me the stats are overstating the OL play.  I would mention though that josh has shown the pocket presence from 2020 so the year over year stats can be used for comparison rather than league wide like I was doing with season ranks.  Josh definitely is choosing to leave clean pockets though making his own angles tough (he so good at tough throws though).  I think a thread on OL might be needed as there’s a lot to talk about it feels. Thanks for the discussion 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, FrenchConnection said:

I wish Josh would learn to take the underneath passes, but it just isn’t in his makeup. He’s got that Brett Favre dog in him. But I do wish that the Bills had a receiver like Jamar Chase that could make contested catches. Watch Burrow tonight. Half of the Bengals playbook are i’ll-advised passes to Chase on the boundary that only work because he makes catches when double covered. 

 

So here's the paradox:  Josh CAN do it.  He did it against Miami Week 3.  He did it against KC Week 6.  And he did it against NE week 13 to the point of making Bill Belicheck look like a fool - his defense was set up to prevent Josh from racking up long runs and to prevent deep throws.  And Josh smiled sweetly, handed off to the RBs, and

 

It's like he does it when it's in our game plan and those are his "marching order" from the start, so we know he CAN do it.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Beck Water

[bmur66]

Touchdowns first. Duh

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yes expect to see that tonight and be cursing the TV.🤣 

Sure then explain away.

 

even your first example.  Brady has been getting destroyed all season behind that O-line, screaming at them all year.   His receivers have been MIA most of the season.  You tune for one game and this is your conclusion?

[Beck Water]

4 minutes ago, bmur66 said:

Touchdowns first. Duh

 

I do think that Daboll had an ability to beat that out of Josh that Dorsey and Joe Brady somehow lack.

[The Frankish Reich]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

just to specify YAC- yards(plural) after catch, not yard after catch

This is kind of weird. Diggs just isn't a YAC type guy; that's not in his skillset (which is pretty amazing otherwise).

But other guys? Knox: where's that Angry Run we watched a bazillion times from a couple years ago?

McKenzie, and now Hines: these are extremely quick/slippery runners who haven't broken free for any long runs. Cook has shown that explosive potential too, but on runs, not passes (yet). Why not?

Edited January 2, 2023 by The Frankish Reich

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

The one guy I always watch and wish he were on the Bills is Austin Ekeler. I swear that he catches 3-yard passes, and every time turns it into a 10-yard gain with a little wiggle, broken tackle, or dive forward. 
 

I thought Hines would be that guy for us, and he has flashed (had a huge third down conversion last game in the red zone where he made a guy miss on a check down), but not with any consistency.  Eckler does that literally every time he touches the ball. 

Cook seems like he could do that if he doesn't trip over his own feet first. The problem is Josh often doesn't go to him enough maybe because it's his last read or thinks he can fit it in downfield more. 

[Pokebball]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

That seems to be the case sometimes, but often Josh has plenty of time to throw.  That interception last week for example.  He had 5 seconds and couldn't find any WR with seperation.  That is often the case IMO.  WRs must win their 1 on 1 matchups

It isn't just "time to throw". Josh is mostly under pressure when he throws. He does a good job buying time and finding the open receiver but he's doing it after escaping pressure, on the run, throwing while in the air before landing out of bounds. It's important to consider the context.

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I try to ignore the OP because he just posts stuff looking for attention.  But I am looking at some responses here and am amazed at the negativity.  The Bills are the #1 team in the AFC.  But reading some of you, we should probably just forfeit tonight and turn down being in the payoffs because we’re so horrible.

 

 

Just because the Bills are winning doesn't mean everything is perfect. Just asked the Vikings, their fans and the pundits.

 

I'm glad you wear rose-coloured glasses, good for you.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

even your first example.  Brady has been getting destroyed all season behind that O-line, screaming at them all year.   His receivers have been MIA most of the season.  You tune for one game and this is your conclusion?

Brady is a statue back there and happy to throw his players under the bus. I've watched a lot of Tampa games and often he is getting lots of time and making or missing passes. Take a look at the yards thrown, which is more then Allen.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Billsfan1972