OLine/Unforced Error All 22 Review - Lions 2022

[Bocephuz]

In the past i used to do lengthy in depth posts with gifs.. don't have time for that nowadays

 

I watched every passing snap to evaluate pass blocking performance as well as Josh Allen unforced errors committed (PASS BLOCKING ONLY EVALUATED.. did not evaluate running plays). 

 

Unforced error =  Allen has time to throw, wr is open and he misses throw.. or.. Allen makes poor unforced decision 

 

OLINEMAN BEATEN =  O lineman clearly loses his one on one matchup... or.. clearly misreads stunt/combo block

 

____

 

OLINEMAN BEATEN STATS

DAWKINS - 1

QUESSENBERRY - 1

SAFFOLD - 2

BATES - 1

GVR - 2

BROWN - 3  

 

OL SUMMARY : In general the OL was slightly better than last week but still below average

-DAWKINS -  Looked pretty solid for first few series and then was replaced by Quessenberry. Didn't really see an obvious injury. 

- QUESSENBERRY - Came in for Dawk midway thru the game and actually looked solid at LT.  Only gave up one pressure.. looks much more comfortable at LT rather than RT.

- SAFFOLD -  Saffold was not as bad as last week.. but still had two ugly pressures given up. He seems slow off the snap.. both pressures were him getting beaten to the spot rather than getting physically bowled over. 

- BATES - Mr. Versatility stepped up for the injured Mitch Morse at Center and was his usual solid self only giving up one pressure all day and cleanly snapping the ball to #17.

- VAN ROTEN - Gave up two pressures and the communication between he and Brown was poor on several stunts/passoffs.  

- BROWN -  An outright liability. He led the way again with 3 pressures given up. Hutchinson clearly outclassed Spencer several time. Brown is completely vulnerable to the outside speed rush and eventually Dorsey had to keep #26 in a couple times to help the struggling RT with chip blocks. 

 

 

 

QB UNFORCED ERRORS:  Josh had 2 unforced errors by my count.  Based on my history of doing this kind of analysis when a qb has 5 or more unforced errors the chances of his team winning decrease materially. 

 

- Josh INT -  Not really an error on Josh' part.. #44 Rodriguez made a heady play/ read the play fake and got in the throwing lane and tipped the ball 

- Bad Throw - Josh had one really bad unforced throw on an out to Diggs 

 

Josh was more decisive today than against Browns. For the most part he only escaped the pocket when forced. Dorsey also went to the quick game a lot in the 2nd half to protect Josh and get the ball out of his hands. Several plays where Josh hits his drop and the ball is out immediately on a hitch or a quick slant. This was very effective and got him the offense in a big rhythm. I would hope Dorsey calls more quick game going forward as the O Line is not really capable of holding up for plays calling for multiple late developing deep routes. However.. have to give O Line props as they held up in pass pro for the most important play of the game at end of q4 when Josh had time and room to climb the pocket and throw a 34 yd laser to Diggs that pretty much won the game for the Bills. 

 

Unfortunately I don't see anyone on the roster who can replace Spencer Brown effectively so Dorsey is going to have to work around him and keep backs/TE in to help him with chips .. or perhaps go with the quick game more to compensate. 

 

 

[Beck Water]

22 minutes ago, Bocephuz said:

- BATES - Mr. Versatility stepped up for the injured Mitch Morse at Center and was his usual solid self only giving up one pressure all day and cleanly snapping the ball to #17.

 

Good stuff, @Bocephuz.  I know you said you didn't do running plays, but worth mentioning the fumbled snap TD.  Of course that's gonna get scored to Josh, but might be worth noting that I thought the snap was low for shotgun.  Seems as though there was at least one other snap where I thought "goodness, it's a good thing our QB is 6'5".

 

No knock on Bates for as little practice as they had and Josh being limited in what they had, he did well.

 

I do think Brown looks better next to Bates than he did next to Van Roten.

[LABILLBACKER]

Van Rotten, Saffold and Brown need to be replaced next year. If you can't protect your elite QB you're no good to me. Quessenberry should only be 2nd line depth. Build around Dawkins, Morse & Bates.

[Rat-boy]

2 hours ago, Bocephuz said:

In the past i used to do lengthy in depth posts with gifs.. don't have time for that nowadays

 

I watched every passing snap to evaluate pass blocking performance as well as Josh Allen unforced errors committed (PASS BLOCKING ONLY EVALUATED.. did not evaluate running plays). 

 

Unforced error =  Allen has time to throw, wr is open and he misses throw.. or.. Allen makes poor unforced decision 

 

OLINEMAN BEATEN =  O lineman clearly loses his one on one matchup... or.. clearly misreads stunt/combo block

 

____

 

OLINEMAN BEATEN STATS

DAWKINS - 1

QUESSENBERRY - 1

SAFFOLD - 2

BATES - 1

GVR - 2

BROWN - 3  

 

OL SUMMARY : In general the OL was slightly better than last week but still below average

-DAWKINS -  Looked pretty solid for first few series and then was replaced by Quessenberry. Didn't really see an obvious injury. 

- QUESSENBERRY - Came in for Dawk midway thru the game and actually looked solid at LT.  Only gave up one pressure.. looks much more comfortable at LT rather than RT.

- SAFFOLD -  Saffold was not as bad as last week.. but still had two ugly pressures given up. He seems slow off the snap.. both pressures were him getting beaten to the spot rather than getting physically bowled over. 

- BATES - Mr. Versatility stepped up for the injured Mitch Morse at Center and was his usual solid self only giving up one pressure all day and cleanly snapping the ball to #17.

- VAN ROTEN - Gave up two pressures and the communication between he and Brown was poor on several stunts/passoffs.  

- BROWN -  An outright liability. He led the way again with 3 pressures given up. Hutchinson clearly outclassed Spencer several time. Brown is completely vulnerable to the outside speed rush and eventually Dorsey had to keep #26 in a couple times to help the struggling RT with chip blocks. 

 

 

 

QB UNFORCED ERRORS:  Josh had 2 unforced errors by my count.  Based on my history of doing this kind of analysis when a qb has 5 or more unforced errors the chances of his team winning decrease materially. 

 

- Josh INT -  Not really an error on Josh' part.. #44 Rodriguez made a heady play/ read the play fake and got in the throwing lane and tipped the ball 

- Bad Throw - Josh had one really bad unforced throw on an out to Diggs 

 

Josh was more decisive today than against Browns. For the most part he only escaped the pocket when forced. Dorsey also went to the quick game a lot in the 2nd half to protect Josh and get the ball out of his hands. Several plays where Josh hits his drop and the ball is out immediately on a hitch or a quick slant. This was very effective and got him the offense in a big rhythm. I would hope Dorsey calls more quick game going forward as the O Line is not really capable of holding up for plays calling for multiple late developing deep routes. However.. have to give O Line props as they held up in pass pro for the most important play of the game at end of q4 when Josh had time and room to climb the pocket and throw a 34 yd laser to Diggs that pretty much won the game for the Bills. 

 

Unfortunately I don't see anyone on the roster who can replace Spencer Brown effectively so Dorsey is going to have to work around him and keep backs/TE in to help him with chips .. or perhaps go with the quick game more to compensate. 

 

 

Nice post. Aidan Hutchinson is a beast and causes matchup problems for most. That said, Spencer needs to do better and continue to improve.

[hemma]

So ol were beaten on 10 of 42 pass attempts.

Your gut feeling on the 29 runs?

[gobills404]

For an ultra-athletic tackle with long arms it’s bizarre how easily Brown gets beaten with speed around the outside. You’d think if anything he’d be a lot more vulnerable against power rushes and inside moves.

[Process]

Nice work...confirms what we've been seeing all year long...Brown and Saffold are huge liabilities. 

[Simon]

31 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

For an ultra-athletic tackle

 

I don't agree with this at all.

His feet have been a problem since the minute he stepped onto an NFL field.

[gobills404]

57 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I don't agree with this at all.

His feet have been a problem since the minute he stepped onto an NFL field.

That’d be like saying Isaiah McKenzie isn’t athletic because he isn’t a good route runner.

[Simon]

9 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

That’d be like saying Isaiah McKenzie isn’t athletic because he isn’t a good route runner.

 

imo the first thing that makes a great athlete is great feet, and that precludes him from ever being a great athlete.

[17islongenough]

 

 

 

[Jauronimo]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Browns best block of the day was when he whiffed on the rushing end(don’t recall who) but just got enough of the guy who hurt his elbow in the process and lied on the ground right next to Josh’s legs almost looking dead which allowed Josh to complete a long pass to McKenzie. Blocking 101. 

Brown whiffed so hard the DE over exerted himself trying to beat a phantom block.  Spencer weaponized the pass rusher's own aggressiveness and momentum and struck a killer blow without even touching him.  Thats some Bruce Lee type *****.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Jauronimo

[gobills404]

3 hours ago, Simon said:

 

imo the first thing that makes a great athlete is great feet, and that precludes him from ever being a great athlete.

having quick feet and knowing how to use that quickness are 2 different things

[Mr. WEO]

12 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Van Rotten, Saffold and Brown need to be replaced next year. If you can't protect your elite QB you're no good to me. Quessenberry should only be 2nd line depth. Build around Dawkins, Morse & Bates.

 

11 hours ago, Process said:

Nice work...confirms what we've been seeing all year long...Brown and Saffold are huge liabilities. 

 

8 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Brown whiffed so hard the DE over exerted himself trying to beat a phantom block.  Spencer weaponized the pass rusher's own aggressiveness and momentum and struck a killer blow without even touching him.  Thats some Bruce Lee type *****.

 

Was it even a year ago that TBD was measuring Brown for that gold jacket??   Ah....time does fly.

[BigBuff423]

I don't know the mechanics or viability, but given Brown's size and that he's been much better in the run game, I wonder if he's more suited for a Guard position? Maybe moving him inside will help with his slow step and allow him to use his size to maul the guys in front of him rather than needing to peddle to the right to keep his man from getting around him. Just a thought...

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

I don't know the mechanics or viability, but given Brown's size and that he's been much better in the run game, I wonder if he's more suited for a Guard position? Maybe moving him inside will help with his slow step and allow him to use his size to maul the guys in front of him rather than needing to peddle to the right to keep his man from getting around him. Just a thought...

 

In pass pro, that might help, but for a guard in the run game I worry about someone that tall being beaten for leverage. Low man wins. 

[Bocephuz]

15 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Good stuff, @Bocephuz.  I know you said you didn't do running plays, but worth mentioning the fumbled snap TD.  Of course that's gonna get scored to Josh, but might be worth noting that I thought the snap was low for shotgun.  Seems as though there was at least one other snap where I thought "goodness, it's a good thing our QB is 6'5".

 

No knock on Bates for as little practice as they had and Josh being limited in what they had, he did well.

 

I do think Brown looks better next to Bates than he did next to Van Roten.

 

Good observation... that was one instance where backup center had snap issue. That being said Morse has had a few bad snaps himself this year.. will be good to get Mitch back though and kick Bates over and get GVR on the bench. 

13 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Van Rotten, Saffold and Brown need to be replaced next year. If you can't protect your elite QB you're no good to me. Quessenberry should only be 2nd line depth. Build around Dawkins, Morse & Bates.

Agree need upgrades for GVR, Saff and Brown next year. Dawkins quite frankly has had some really rough patches this year... wouldn't mind seeing them taking a LT in rd 1 or 2 next year to groom as his replacement. Quess is decent backup .. 

13 hours ago, Rat-boy said:

Nice post. Aidan Hutchinson is a beast and causes matchup problems for most. That said, Spencer needs to do better and continue to improve.

Brown has had some tough matchups last few weeks this is true. Even so... he may be playing himself out of a job if he doesn't at least be more competitive in his one on one battles rest of year

[Bocephuz]

13 hours ago, hemma said:

So ol were beaten on 10 of 42 pass attempts.

Your gut feeling on the 29 runs?

Gut feeling... didn't really watch the run plays much .. but its possible that Saffold and Brown are good enough in the run block game to justify their weak pass pro.. just speculation.. I don't really feel comfortable breaking down run game stuff.. too complex for me

[Coach Tuesday]

6 minutes ago, Bocephuz said:

 

Good observation... that was one instance where backup center had snap issue. That being said Morse has had a few bad snaps himself this year.. will be good to get Mitch back though and kick Bates over and get GVR on the bench. 

Agree need upgrades for GVR, Saff and Brown next year. Dawkins quite frankly has had some really rough patches this year... wouldn't mind seeing them taking a LT in rd 1 or 2 next year to groom as his replacement. Quess is decent backup .. 

Brown has had some tough matchups last few weeks this is true. Even so... he may be playing himself out of a job if he doesn't at least be more competitive in his one on one battles rest of year

 

Agree with this.  They should rebuild their o-line this offseason (should have done it last offseason).  They need new two guards and at least one young developmental tackle.  And more playmakers at WR.

[Bocephuz]

12 hours ago, gobills404 said:

For an ultra-athletic tackle with long arms it’s bizarre how easily Brown gets beaten with speed around the outside. You’d think if anything he’d be a lot more vulnerable against power rushes and inside moves.

Yeah... he's actually had some really bright moments where he's dominated.. but something's happened to him (starting mid last year) where he doesn't look like the athlete he was. Maybe injuries catching up with him... maybe them flipping him between LT and RT last year messed up his head.. IDK. But he has been hurting more than helping in pass pro for almost a full year now. 

[nemhoff]

Thanks man, this is great insight

[Bocephuz]

12 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I don't agree with this at all.

His feet have been a problem since the minute he stepped onto an NFL field.

If I recall .. when he was drafted his measurables were off the charts for OTs. Clearly something has happened to him where he can't move like he used to. 

59 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

I don't know the mechanics or viability, but given Brown's size and that he's been much better in the run game, I wonder if he's more suited for a Guard position? Maybe moving him inside will help with his slow step and allow him to use his size to maul the guys in front of him rather than needing to peddle to the right to keep his man from getting around him. Just a thought...

not a bad idea. shades of Cody Ford all over again

4 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Agree with this.  They should rebuild their o-line this offseason (should have done it last offseason).  They need new two guards and at least one young developmental tackle.  And more playmakers at WR.

I'm hoping they use the draft more than FA to do this as this constant patching up holes with mid level vets is not good long term solution. Unfortunately the one area where McBeane has whiffed most in the draft is OL.

[BillsVet]

3 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Agree with this.  They should rebuild their o-line this offseason (should have done it last offseason).  They need new two guards and at least one young developmental tackle.  And more playmakers at WR.

 

I'm concerned that this investment will hinder the HC from adding another depth DT, 4th DE, or backup SAM who can play ST to say nothing over another safety.  

 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

3 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

I'm concerned that this investment will hinder the HC from adding another depth DT, 4th DE, or backup SAM who can play ST to say nothing over another safety.  

 

 

 

Precisely my hope.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Agree with this.  They should rebuild their o-line this offseason (should have done it last offseason).  They need new two guards and at least one young developmental tackle.  And more playmakers at WR.

Just to be clear you want to replace Bates at guard?  Did you post during the off-season that Beane should have let him walk to the Bears? I think most of us on here agreed with Beane to match the Bears offer.  

Morse had a good year last season and Dawkins was playing at an All-Pro level late in the season.  They replaced Feliciano and Ford with Saffold.  Most of us were worried about Brown at RT but though Q was a good depth signing.

I wanted  the Chiefs center instead of Basham and I wanted an OT instead of Cook this past draft.  That would have been much better use of draft picks but you can't say Beane didn't try to address the o-line this past off-season.

[Lost]

20 hours ago, Bocephuz said:

Several plays where Josh hits his drop and the ball is out immediately on a hitch or a quick slant. This was very effective and got him the offense in a big rhythm.

 

 

This bugs me.  This is exactly how the Bills game planned to beat Aaron Donald and the Rams week 1 and it worked flawlessly.  They seemed to get away from it midway through the season for some reason but I would certainly like to see them get back on these long efficient passing drives.  Bring in less blockers and spread receivers out to give josh options for the quick reads.  

[corta765]

I think offensive line is something always in constant flux and in the past where Beane I would say hit on some free agent signings like Spain/Feliciano/Williams that filled a void for a year or so, this year Saffold has not answered the bell as we hope and Brown has taken a sizable step back (maybe injury related). Van Rotten is playing more then you would like as a healthy Bills line would be Dawkins Saffold Morse Bates Brown. The stalwarts of the line are Dawkins and Morse and everything else has been interchangeable going back to 2019 which has led to some good and some bad. I doubt that Brown is replaced as though this has not been the best year he was good last year and as I said injuries I think have had their toll.

 

I would expect next year a focus on OG in draft and FA to try and get younger. Additionally Morse is not exactly a young guy either and the Bills need to consider having an OG that can eventually move into that role. Bates has been fine but depth is always a luxury if you can get it.

 

Finally injuries have been everywhere this year. Offensive line requires a lot of cohesiveness to be at your best and truthfully they just have not had that. Not trying to make excuses as line play has hurt the Bills especially in the Jets game. After tomorrows game Buffalo gets a needed mini bye to put what will be their best roster possible out for the rest of the season and hopefully with that their most cohesive and high performing line.

[Bocephuz]

2 hours ago, corta765 said:

I think offensive line is something always in constant flux and in the past where Beane I would say hit on some free agent signings like Spain/Feliciano/Williams that filled a void for a year or so, this year Saffold has not answered the bell as we hope and Brown has taken a sizable step back (maybe injury related). Van Rotten is playing more then you would like as a healthy Bills line would be Dawkins Saffold Morse Bates Brown. The stalwarts of the line are Dawkins and Morse and everything else has been interchangeable going back to 2019 which has led to some good and some bad. I doubt that Brown is replaced as though this has not been the best year he was good last year and as I said injuries I think have had their toll.

 

I would expect next year a focus on OG in draft and FA to try and get younger. Additionally Morse is not exactly a young guy either and the Bills need to consider having an OG that can eventually move into that role. Bates has been fine but depth is always a luxury if you can get it.

 

Finally injuries have been everywhere this year. Offensive line requires a lot of cohesiveness to be at your best and truthfully they just have not had that. Not trying to make excuses as line play has hurt the Bills especially in the Jets game. After tomorrows game Buffalo gets a needed mini bye to put what will be their best roster possible out for the rest of the season and hopefully with that their most cohesive and high performing line.

Cohesiveness is certainly important.. especially when you are trying to pick up stunts/twists etc. Hopefully Morse comes back and Bates kicks back over to RG to provide some stability to Brown in picking up stunts/ communication. Van Roten and Brown had zero chemistry on that last game. 

[Simon]

8 hours ago, BigBuff423 said:

I don't know the mechanics or viability, but given Brown's size and that he's been much better in the run game, I wonder if he's more suited for a Guard position? Maybe moving him inside will help with his slow step and allow him to use his size to maul the guys in front of him rather than needing to peddle to the right to keep his man from getting around him. Just a thought...

 

This was exactly what I said last year after watching Brown for a couple games.

The biggest issue might be his size in passing lanes.

[billsfan89]

7 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Agree with this.  They should rebuild their o-line this offseason (should have done it last offseason).  They need new two guards and at least one young developmental tackle.  And more playmakers at WR.

The Oline was my area of biggest concern this past offseason and the Bills need an overhaul. Need to replace Saffold and bring in competition for Brown and get some more depth and a developmental players.

[ColoradoBills]

25 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

The Oline was my area of biggest concern this past offseason and the Bills need an overhaul. Need to replace Saffold and bring in competition for Brown and get some more depth and a developmental players.

 

I'll admit I was a little shocked Beane didn't pick an OL with anywhere from 3-5 last draft.

It has to be the #1 priority this offseason.

[billsfan89]

3 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I'll admit I was a little shocked Beane didn't pick an OL with anywhere from 3-5 last draft.

It has to be the #1 priority this offseason.

Round three would have been a nice spot to grab a guard and put him behind Saffold for a year.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

12 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Agree with this.  They should rebuild their o-line this offseason (should have done it last offseason).  They need new two guards and at least one young developmental tackle.  And more playmakers at WR.

WR talent is the clear #1 priority IMO

OL is the obvious 2nd

 

The next time they draft a defensive player in the first three rounds will be too soon!

4 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I'll admit I was a little shocked Beane didn't pick an OL with anywhere from 3-5 last draft.

It has to be the #1 priority this offseason.

 

I think will Allen’s elite mobility and pocket awareness they should prioritize WR talent and depth. 
 

I am with you though, it is a clear need. 

[McDeerInTheHeadlights]

16 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

In pass pro, that might help, but for a guard in the run game I worry about someone that tall being beaten for leverage. Low man wins. 

 

Moving the player inside to guard was what they were planning to do with Tommy Doyle, before his injury.

 

They have drafted two towering tackle prospects that are struggling so bad outside that they might be forced to play them in a position that doesn't suit their physical traits.

 

Sharing juicy insights on their decision-making process and being polished public speakers is great, but they could do much better at evaluating OL (and DE) talent.

[Brand J]

Just take the best OL in the first round next year, regardless of position. Only way you don’t go OL is if a blue chipper unexpectedly falls, otherwise take the best prospect to protect Josh and let the players/coaches sort out who plays where.