Josh vs. Herbert and Mahomes…

[C.Biscuit97]

53 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

1. Allen

2. Mahomes 

3. Herbert 

 

Josh is the cyborg sent from the future. He does it all.  Mahomes is extremely talented but as we all saw last night ( should've been 3 INT's) he gets his breaks. Herbert is amazing but very robotic in his progressions.    As I said last year these will be your top 3 qbs for the next decade. There's no one in the NFC the concerns me once Brady & Rodgers retire.

You’re doing could have been ints? That’s insane. Allen has thrown his share of ints that defenders dropped. Living in hypotheticals is a bad way to live. Like I could have married Margot Robbie if we met and it makes me sad.

 

if Allen wants the top spot, he needs to beat Mahomes. No if ands or buts.

[Airseven]

Mahomes is the best QB in football.

 

Allen and Herbert are on par with each other with each possessing (unique) elite traits and upside. Add Burrow to this threesome and you could justifiably rank them in any order.

[YattaOkasan]

34 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You’re doing could have been ints? That’s insane. Allen has thrown his share of ints that defenders dropped. Living in hypotheticals is a bad way to live. Like I could have married Margot Robbie if we met and it makes me sad.

 

if Allen wants the top spot, he needs to beat Mahomes. No if ands or buts.

You mean the bills need to beat the Chiefs.  Allen did pretty great in the playoffs and regular season last year.  I'm not putting 13s on Josh.  IMO two years ago they were clearly better, last year that gap was gone.  From that trend I think were gonna be better.  Our ability to get pressure from the edge will be the difference (previously relied on pressure up the middle which is a strength of Chiefs now).  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

22 minutes ago, Airseven said:

Mahomes is the best QB in football.

 

Allen and Herbert are on par with each other with each possessing (unique) elite traits and upside. Add Burrow to this threesome and you could justifiably rank them in any order.

Joe Burrow has to learn to get rid of the ball quicker. He’s a sitting duck.

[C.Biscuit97]

2 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

You mean the bills need to beat the Chiefs.  Allen did pretty great in the playoffs and regular season last year.  I'm not putting 13s on Josh.  IMO two years ago they were clearly better, last year that gap was gone.  From that trend I think were gonna be better.  Our ability to get pressure from the edge will be the difference (previously relied on pressure up the middle which is a strength of Chiefs now).  

Yup that’s fair. But it’s hard to say Allen is better until he wins a MVP and Sb, which he has a good shot at both this year.

 

that Allen is even in this debate is absolutely amazing. In my wildest dreams, I could never imagine Allen being this good.

[YattaOkasan]

8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yup that’s fair. But it’s hard to say Allen is better until he wins a MVP and Sb, which he has a good shot at both this year.

 

that Allen is even in this debate is absolutely amazing. In my wildest dreams, I could never imagine Allen being this good.

Fair, and it may have you been up thread that said Mahomes is ahead because of MVP and Sb.  I respect that.  I think Allen does more with less, but agree that its a conversation is amazing.  

[Scott7975]

38 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yup that’s fair. But it’s hard to say Allen is better until he wins a MVP and Sb, which he has a good shot at both this year.

 

that Allen is even in this debate is absolutely amazing. In my wildest dreams, I could never imagine Allen being this good.

 

I think just the SB is enough.  Winning MVP isnt all that important IMO.  Would be great to add to his resume but its just a stats award.

[UKBillFan]

Mahomes lucked out on the first 'interception'; that was such a tick tack call. And the third interception attempt should have been held. Hopefully he's using his luck up in the regular season. Saying that, there's no doubt he's a phenomenal Quarterback.

 

Herbert was drafted two years after Josh - it was 2020 when Josh really took off so Herbert has time; at this point of his career I'd say he is ahead of Josh but whether he'll continue on the same trajectory is up for debate.

 

Three superb Quarterbacks... shame the other two are also in the AFC!

[HappyDays]

55 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But it’s hard to say Allen is better until he wins a MVP and Sb, which he has a good shot at both this year.

 

Are we ranking the QBs by past accomplishments or by current ability? Past accomplishments it is not a debate. Current ability there are plenty of good arguments that Allen is a better overall QB. Super Bowl wins are a team stat. Allen did everything he needed to do, and then some, to get the Bills to a Super Bowl last year. That's a lame standard.

[C.Biscuit97]

17 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I think just the SB is enough.  Winning MVP isnt all that important IMO.  Would be great to add to his resume but its just a stats award.

True and us as Bills fans shouldn’t care either way. I do think if we are going to get in this silly ranking of players, a MVP award Carries a lot of weight.  For instance, there is a case that Rodgers could be considered a better qb than Brady because he has more MVPs. I don’t think he is but it’s not crazy to say Rodgers is a better player who played with worse coaches and defenses.

[L Ron Burgundy]

17 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Allen can do things the other two cannot. Neither of them can do things that Allen cannot.

Mahommes can do side arm stuff Josh can't.   Not that I really want him to.

[HappyDays]

7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

a MVP award Carries a lot of weight

 

Lamar Jackson is a better QB than Josh Allen with that standard. I'll watch their play on the field and make my own judgments. I don't need the 2-3 year old opinions of 50 NFL analysts to tell me who the best QB is right now. That doesn't make any sense.

[C.Biscuit97]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Are we ranking the QBs by past accomplishments or by current ability? Past accomplishments it is not a debate. Current ability there are plenty of good arguments that Allen is a better overall QB. Super Bowl wins are a team stat. Allen did everything he needed to do, and then some, to get the Bills to a Super Bowl last year. That's a lame standard.

This is why this is stupid. Because I don’t want to throw any shade at Josh who is amazing. But Mahomes had better passing numbers than Allen last year and is currently at 7 tds to 0 ints this year. Not really sure how anyone can say Allen is definitively better at this point.

 

but allen and Mahomes are great. Along with with Rodgers and plastic face Brady. I think Herbert is in a class with Burrow. I will say that I’m so happy the fins have Tua and the pats have Max because last night (and Josh) showed plays they have no chance of making.

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Lamar Jackson is a better QB than Josh Allen with that standard. I'll watch their play on the field and make my own judgments. I don't need the 2-3 year old opinions of 50 NFL analysts to tell me who the best QB is right now. That doesn't make any sense.

Well, you’re a Bills fan haha. Allen could easily leap him this year but in this silly hypothetical, he’s not there yet (and Herbert isn’t close). 

[HappyDays]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Mahomes had better passing numbers than Allen last year and is currently at 7 tds to 0 ints this year.

 

And yet Allen has been the much better QB over the last 3 games played. The last 3 games Mahomes played he was spotty against the Chargers, dominated the Cardinals, and played an awful 2nd half against the Bengals. I don't care even a little bit about his TD to INT ratio from this year. I've watched every throw in each of their last 3 games. I know what my eyes tell me. As the season goes on we'll get more evidence. I'm not ready to put Allen above Mahomes just yet, they're still equal for me, but I think it's even more ridiculous to put Mahomes above Allen at this point.

[Big Turk]

13 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Mahommes can do side arm stuff Josh can't.   Not that I really want him to.

 

Maybe a little, but Allen has done sidearm throws before too.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, YattaOkasan said:

Fair, and it may have you been up thread that said Mahomes is ahead because of MVP and Sb.  I respect that.  I think Allen does more with less, but agree that its a conversation is amazing.  

 

He isn't doing more with less this year. Give me the Bills offensive personnel over KC's. 

[Stokes84]

Allen and Mahomes are in their own tier. There’s a big separation between them and everyone else right now.

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He isn't doing more with less this year. Give me the Bills offensive personnel over KC's. 

 

Yeah the weirdest discourse I heard in the offseason was that the Chiefs offense would somehow be better without Tyreek Hill on the field. If you tried to tell Chiefs fans there's no way that would happen, they would throw out Mahomes's record in games that Hill missed as if that alone ended the argument. Turns out going from arguably the most dynamic offensive talent in the game to a pair of mediocre WRs has a negative impact.

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by HappyDays

[RobbRiddick]

What about Tua?

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah the weirdest discourse I heard in the offseason was that the Chiefs offense would somehow be better without Tyreek Hill on the field. If you tried to tell Chiefs fans there's no way that would happen, they would throw out Mahomes's record in games that Hill missed as if that alone ended the argument. Turns out going from arguably the most dynamic offensive talent in the game to a pair of mediocre WRs has a negative impact.

 

 

Tyreek is special. I was never a big JuJu guy even when he had a nice rookie year. I said then take AB away and see how he looks. The answer was not too hot. And MVS? Give me a break. 

[YattaOkasan]

26 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He isn't doing more with less this year. Give me the Bills offensive personnel over KC's. 

yeah thats fair but we also dont have enough data to know how well they are performing yet this year.  So the "more with less" (thats probably imprecise on my part even) is in regards to past years and why Josh doesnt have the same accolades.  

[billsrul120]

37 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

This is why this is stupid. Because I don’t want to throw any shade at Josh who is amazing. But Mahomes had better passing numbers than Allen last year and is currently at 7 tds to 0 ints this year. Not really sure how anyone can say Allen is definitively better at this point.

 

but allen and Mahomes are great. Along with with Rodgers and plastic face Brady. I think Herbert is in a class with Burrow. I will say that I’m so happy the fins have Tua and the pats have Max because last night (and Josh) showed plays they have no chance of making.

Well, you’re a Bills fan haha. Allen could easily leap him this year but in this silly hypothetical, he’s not there yet (and Herbert isn’t close). 

Clearly bait but you got me.  Allen has played 1 game and put up 4 total TDs so we'll see TDs after Monday.  Of the two picks, Allen literally had 1 go off a receivers hands and the other one was a great play by the db.  I don't remember another bad throw by Allen on Thursday but maybe you do.  Mahomes threw a worse ball right to Samuel last night handled it about as well as someone who never saw a football before.

 

How could anyone say Allen is better at this point?  They actually watch the games.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

18 hours ago, Dopey said:

Here you go guys, have at it 

Geez. 

Wait.  You left out Tua.

[Success]

17 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Allen

Mahomes

 

significant drop

 

Herbert

 

So much this.  Allen & Mahomes are 1A and 1B.   

 

I love Herbert's game, and he has that competitive fire - but he's just not at the level of the other 2.  He can't quite put his team on his back like those guys.

 

[Billl]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah the weirdest discourse I heard in the offseason was that the Chiefs offense would somehow be better without Tyreek Hill on the field. If you tried to tell Chiefs fans there's no way that would happen, they would throw out Mahomes's record in games that Hill missed as if that alone ended the argument. Turns out going from arguably the most dynamic offensive talent in the game to a pair of mediocre WRs has a negative impact.

 

71 points in two games proves that the Chiefs offense has taken a hit?

[HappyDays]

14 minutes ago, Billl said:

71 points in two games proves that the Chiefs offense has taken a hit?

 

Did you watch the game last night? Did you think that looked like the normal Chiefs offense of 2018-2021?

[Big Turk]

18 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I still think Patty Ice is ahead of Allen, but we are taking 2 elite QBs. 

 

Especially when you have 4 INTs erased by DBs dropping gifts twice, another erased by a phantom illegal contact penalty and another erased by offsetting penalties.

 

It's uncanny how often this happens with him and he ends up with a clean stat line.

[L Ron Burgundy]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Maybe a little, but Allen has done sidearm throws before too.

Mahomes is just ridiculously good at it.  He can do it more accurately than anyone else.

[Your Brown Eye]

5 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Especially when you have 4 INTs erased by DBs dropping gifts twice, another erased by a phantom illegal contact penalty and another erased by offsetting penalties.

 

It's uncanny how often this happens with him and he ends up with a clean stat line.

 

What is phantom about the DB getting to the WR early before the ball? They even showed an up close replay and is was pretty clear if we are talking about the same play. You can hate Mahomes as much as the next guy, but he underthrew the ball as he got hit and the commentator said that those penalties are a result of the underthrown ball ...but if you want to call it "phantom" go right ahead

[TBBills]

2 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Wait.  You left out Tua.

Tua wasn't in his picking lane so he couldn't see him.

[Big Turk]

29 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Mahomes is just ridiculously good at it.  He can do it more accurately than anyone else.

 

Likely his baseball upbringing

30 minutes ago, Your Brown Eye said:

 

What is phantom about the DB getting to the WR early before the ball? They even showed an up close replay and is was pretty clear if we are talking about the same play. You can hate Mahomes as much as the next guy, but he underthrew the ball as he got hit and the commentator said that those penalties are a result of the underthrown ball ...but if you want to call it "phantom" go right ahead

 

No, the one that got intercepted over the middle when Watson slipped and they showed the reverse angle and the DB never even touched him.

[Billl]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Did you watch the game last night? Did you think that looked like the normal Chiefs offense of 2018-2021?

Yeah, I was there.  I watched the Chiefs, on three days rest, play a C- game against the best defensive line in football and win versus the team with the fourth best Super Bowl odds.  I suppose that Kansas City has set such a high standard for itself that they’re supposed to apologize for a monster win.  I’m not buying it, though.  In the closest thing you’re going to get to a rebuilding year, and with 7 rookies getting significant playing time, they look as good as any team in football.

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, Billl said:

Yeah, I was there.  I watched the Chiefs, on three days rest, play a C- game against the best defensive line in football and win versus the team with the fourth best Super Bowl odds.  I suppose that Kansas City has set such a high standard for itself that they’re supposed to apologize for a monster win.  I’m not buying it, though.  In the closest thing you’re going to get to a rebuilding year, and with 7 rookies getting significant playing time, they look as good as any team in football.

 

Your offense scored 20 points, your WRs couldn't separate, and Mahomes forced several passes. I don't know what else to tell you. It's a worse offense without Tyreek Hill on the field.

[Buddo]

Not convinced by Herbert, at all. There's a lot there to like, but it's been a long time since I saw the sort of inane throw into triple coverage, that never even looked like it had a window, that Herbert threw against the Chiefs late on.

 

Thing is with that one, the football had some heat on it, yet there were still 3 defenders between the ball and the receiver, when it tried to arrive.

 

With strong armed QBs, sometimes you could say that there would be a chance that that throw could be made, a few times out of 10. I'm not sure there was any chance for that play to be successful, no matter how many times it was tried.

 

I really didn't like the throw away, just a couple of yards before the down marker. That reminded me of Orton sliding 2 yards away from a first down, when he had about 10 yards of space ahead of him.

 

Herbert could have got the first down by just slowing down and then sliding, and it was all very strange to me that he didn't.

 

It didn't make any real difference, as the next play was a good downfield completion, but in a game that was close, I thought it was pretty poor.

 

Where Herbert does have the arm, he isn't at the same level as Allen and Mahomes yet, as he doesn't read opposing defenses, anywhere near as well as they both do.

 

He's good enough already, that I think he will get there, but the extra experience tells atm. Extra experience on the Chiefs and Bills coaching staff also helps in that respect, imho.

[Behindenemylines]

21 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

It’s unfair if you’re comparing Allen to Herbert AND Mahomes. Obviously 2 is better than 1. 

Yes because JA17 is more than twice the man either one of the is.  Exactly unfair!

[Billever76]

4 hours ago, UKBillFan said:

Mahomes lucked out on the first 'interception'; that was such a tick tack call. And the third interception attempt should have been held. Hopefully he's using his luck up in the regular season. Saying that, there's no doubt he's a phenomenal Quarterback.

 

Herbert was drafted two years after Josh - it was 2020 when Josh really took off so Herbert has time; at this point of his career I'd say he is ahead of Josh but whether he'll continue on the same trajectory is up for debate.

 

Three superb Quarterbacks... shame the other two are also in the AFC!

This season is Herbert's 3rd year playing...Herbert is 0-2 of making the playoffs..Allen had Buffalo in the playoffs his 2nd year starting....now was 2019 Bills roster better than 2021 chargers roster?..not a chance....if Herbert doesn't have a similar year as Allen's 2020 yr this season then I think it pretty much says allen>herbert

[BananaB]

Allen is better then both. He wasn’t as polished as either heading into the league and had to play with guys like Zay, KB and Foster early in his career which made his transition harder in my  opinion. Chiefs and Chargers had elite talent around their QBs when they stepped on the field. Jesus, Beas and Brown were an upgrade from the other meatheads but they were far from elite. Allen made those guys better then they actually were, it’s the reason neither are in the league right now.  Allen had a harder road then both and now he’s better. 

[Bimmer323i]

Yep here we go… the chargers lose last night and according to some sports casters now there a head of Buffalo as the best team in the afc… I just don’t get it… click bait I guess… through all the stats out the window and from just the eye test neither Mahomes or Herbert got ***** on Allen

[Bimmer323i]

5 minutes ago, Gene1973 said:

Man, some of you are acting like hated arrogant Patriot fans talking about Brady in years past. And without Allen SB's even...

 

Lets see how Monday night goes.

 

Did Herbert make a super bowl that we don’t know about

1 hour ago, Buddo said:

Not convinced by Herbert, at all. There's a lot there to like, but it's been a long time since I saw the sort of inane throw into triple coverage, that never even looked like it had a window, that Herbert threw against the Chiefs late on.

 

Thing is with that one, the football had some heat on it, yet there were still 3 defenders between the ball and the receiver, when it tried to arrive.

 

With strong armed QBs, sometimes you could say that there would be a chance that that throw could be made, a few times out of 10. I'm not sure there was any chance for that play to be successful, no matter how many times it was tried.

 

I really didn't like the throw away, just a couple of yards before the down marker. That reminded me of Orton sliding 2 yards away from a first down, when he had about 10 yards of space ahead of him.

 

Herbert could have got the first down by just slowing down and then sliding, and it was all very strange to me that he didn't.

 

It didn't make any real difference, as the next play was a good downfield completion, but in a game that was close, I thought it was pretty poor.

 

Where Herbert does have the arm, he isn't at the same level as Allen and Mahomes yet, as he doesn't read opposing defenses, anywhere near as well as they both do.

 

He's good enough already, that I think he will get there, but the extra experience tells atm. Extra experience on the Chiefs and Bills coaching staff also helps in that respect, imho.

Herbert’s ahead of Josh Allen don’t you know… just go ask that fat ***** Marcus Sprears

[Bimmer323i]

I don’t care it just made me sick to watch some of these sports shows today listening to them Talk about the chargers like there the best team in the league when they lost the ***** game….