Is the Salary Cap real?

[PatsFanNH]

57 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

It is Real.  But it very pliable and easily manipulated when you have an owner with CASH.

 

But eventually Bills will come due, the proper management is making sure those Bills come due in years that it is manageable.  And Beane has SHOWN that he understands that.

Perfectly put! You need an owner willing to spend the money! The cap is real when a team has a lot of dead cap money hitting it. For example 2 years ago NE couldn’t afford a pack of gum w it’s salary cap situation.. but it took 20 years for that to come home to bite them.. 

[DCbillsfan]

14 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

You’re describing NFL socialism, not a salary cap.  It’s not the cap that levels the field, it’s the fact that teams split all media rights money equally.  

If the cap isn't real how come the Rams couldn't keep Miller?  Apparently McVay called Miller 3x yesterday trying to persuade him to come back.

Edited March 17, 2022 by DCbillsfan

[DCbillsfan]

19 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

You’re describing NFL socialism, not a salary cap.  It’s not the cap that levels the field, it’s the fact that teams split all media rights money equally.  

Socialism seriously?  So Matt Haack makes as much money as Josh Allen?  

[BuffaloRebound]

2 minutes ago, DCbillsfan said:

If the cap isn't real how come the Rams couldn't keep Miller?

Because they already used up most of their push it forward maneuvers.  The cap is real to the extent that it is an accounting device that prevents a Jerry Jones from significantly out-spending other teams while at the same time it also prevents a Jerry Jones from spending too much of his future cap.  So it protects parity and protects the owners from themselves at the same time 

[MAJBobby]

8 minutes ago, DCbillsfan said:

If the cap isn't real how come the Rams couldn't keep Miller?  Apparently McVay called Miller 3x yesterday trying to persuade him to come back.

And had 17M to give to him.  So again the money was there, it wasnt like they were trying to do it on the cheap.  They just didnt want to do the team.  I am guessing Rams was 1 year 17.5M, Miller wanted some term

Edited March 17, 2022 by MAJBobby

[BuffaloRebound]

Just now, DCbillsfan said:

Socialism seriously?  So Matt Haack makes as much money as Josh Allen?  

Yes.  Jerry Jones makes the same amount from the media rights deal as Shahid Khan even though Dallas brings in 10 times more eyeballs.  

[Thurman#1]

7 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

This is just false.

Bruce, Thurman and Andre were not cut because of cap.

 

McD and Beane came in and cut everyone creating 80 million in dead Cap. They were not and have not ever been in cap hell.

 

 

I'm done with this, enjoy constantly worrying about the cap and whether they will be doomed in 2-4 years. Im gona enjoy this ride. 

 

 

I don't know what to say to you, man.

 

Yes, Bruce, Thurman and Andre absolutely were cut because of the cap.

 

And yes McDermott and Beane did indeed cut guys creating massive amounts of dead cap. The reason they did that is because they inherited a team in awful cap shape, with a ton of over-large contracts with Clay and the now-underperforming Dareus being probably the two worst, but there were more. Getting rid of those contracts did indeed mean a ton of dead cap. But the dead cap was a symptom. Not the cause of the trouble.

[buffaloboyinATL]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

 

 Beane has handled the cap beautifully, and allowed himself the room to take a shot like this. 

This. He really has done an amazing job with this since he has been here. In Beane We Trust.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Let's put it this way, the cap is real. NFL contracts aren't real.

[HereComesTheReignAgain]

The cap would be real if it was a set amount for several years in a row.  Teams know that the cap will generally go up every season and can use that when restructuring contracts.  The only way the cap becomes "real" is if it stops increasing every year.

[DCofNC]

1 hour ago, CountDorkula said:

I keep seeing this and its very much not the same thing at all.

 

I cant just choose to not pay some of that money i owe on my credit card and cut it. 

Actually, you can.  Think of some of the debt as a subscription service you are paying for, like Prime or whatever.  You have the ability to cut off the service and not have to pay for it anymore.  Then you can kick the can down the road by transferring the debt to another card for a period, etc. You always have to make your minimum payment, but you can play until you run out of credit lines.  With big dumps of cash, that can go on for a LONG time.

[DCbillsfan]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Yes.  Jerry Jones makes the same amount from the media rights deal as Shahid Khan even though Dallas brings in 10 times more eyeballs.  

I wouldn't call it socialism but whatever.  I'm glad they share tv revenue otherwise the Bills wouldn't be in Buffalo.

[Brandon]

The cap is real,  but it can be manipulated under league contract rules.  Plus,  the cap is projected to skyrocket over the next few years once the new CBA kicks in,  so I think the Bills and a few other teams are betting on that as well. 

[Don Otreply]

It’s a Shrodengers(sp) cat sort of thing…, 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Sometimes it's best to keep these things in layman's terms:

 

 

[Don Otreply]

13 minutes ago, DCbillsfan said:

Socialism seriously?  So Matt Haack makes as much money as Josh Allen?  

Teams share, players not so much, 

[SCBills]

13 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

And had 17M to give to him.  So again the money was there, it wasnt like they were trying to do it on the cheap.  They just didnt want to do the team.  I am guessing Rams was 1 year 17.5M, Miller wanted some term

 

Also the Rams don't have remotely the same draft pick situation that we have.  The Bills can backfill cheap talent through the draft... the Rams aren't exactly in the same situation. 

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

 

Also the Rams don't have remotely the same draft pick situation that we have.  The Bills can backfill cheap talent through the draft... the Rams aren't exactly in the same situation. 

Agree but that is the reality as reported.  Money was the same the term wasnt

[Thurman#1]

24 minutes ago, HereComesTheReignAgain said:

The cap would be real if it was a set amount for several years in a row.  Teams know that the cap will generally go up every season and can use that when restructuring contracts.  The only way the cap becomes "real" is if it stops increasing every year.

 

 

Nah.

 

My credit limit is real whether it goes up or down or stays the same. Same with the cap. 

 

The cap is a bit easier to deal with when it goes up, certainly. But the minute the cap goes up, inflation hits salaries and the players cost more.

[BuffaloRebound]

28 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No. For a ton of reasons.

 

When a house goes up in value 10% every year, it doubles value every 7.2 years. The salary cap most recently took 16 years to double.

 

It's not at all like a home equity line. A home equity line is for one asset. This is about 50+ assets being juggled around wildly. A credit card is a much more reasonable comparison.

 

If you go all in this year, it doesn't mean other teams will have more money to spend than you. Every team, every year has the same cap. Your cap situation doesn't affect other teams. It affects your teams. And sooner or later enough kicked cans means you will have to cut assets that would be much better to keep if you are trying to win a title that year. It means you end up losing Von Miller even when you just won a championship with him. Or Thurman and Bruce and Andre. Or whoever. It ends championship windows. It makes your future less bright.

 

And right now our potential championship window is probably somewhere around 14 or 15 years.

 

 

 

 

Um, no, it's the cap. Certainly splitting the media rights helps a great deal, but even so the Cowboys make a squatload more than the Bills or Steelers or Packers do. The cap is huge in maintaining parity.

 

The salary cap is 32 houses worth the same amount that goes up in value 10% every year (that might be conservative with the new TV and streaming deals and the gambling rights for the next 10 years).  Each team is given a home equity line on that house that you don’t have to pay interest on and a yearly salary cap for accounting purposes to preserve parity.  If you wanna spend more this year, but push the accounting salary cap charge for it to future years, that’s your prerogative.  

Credit card isn’t a good example because interest always accrues and you’re spending money you may or may not have. The salary cap is spending money you will have in future years today that doesn’t accrue interest and the money you will have in the future years grows 10% every year for the next 10 years.  (Those media rights deals are locked in).  It’s a debit card, not a credit card.  

[Virgil]

Shouldn’t this be a on Saints forum?

[BuffaloRebound]

This is actually a great thread.  And also shows how great it was to lock up Josh for the next 5 years.  Other teams will have QB inflation and on lesser QB’s.  We won’t.  

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

If anything what it SHOULD show to fans.  STOP worrying about the Salary Cap.  We have a GM that knows how to manage it and manipulate it.  An owner that will lay the cash out.  

 

ID your players get your player manipulate the cap to fit your players.

 

Stop worrying about the "cap" as fans.  Bills just showed, and have shown with Beane it is something they look at but also will not stop them from getting the players they want.

Cap is important, more important than fans want to admit.  The difference is that we have a GM who is a master at managing the cap.  
 

Most teams don’t have that luxury and it blows up in their face.  People want to cite the Rams, but over look the fact that while they did win the SB this year, it’s also the first time in history it’s actually worked.  It’s not suddenly the blue print to throw away all your cap and draft picks to push for a 1 year SB run.  It’s historically not worked a heck of a lot more than it has worked.  
 

Let’s put it this way, more teams have won a SB with a crappy QB than teams have won by mortgaging their future to buy one.  And neither is an ideal choice on how to get one. 
 

Saints keep getting brought up, but why?  They haven’t won anything.  Why are they the poster child for why you dont need to worry about the cap?  They have consistently had cap issues and had to lose players because of it, going all the way back to Brees favorite target Jimmy Graham.  Saints lost players already this year and still don’t have a QB.  They aren’t winning anything this year unless they land Watson (which I don’t think they will).  And if they do get Watson, key players will have to be sent to Houston in trade as part of the deal too for both compensation and cap reasons.  So no guarantee they can still win a SB even after the trade.  This won’t be the same saints roster of last year with Watson.  
 

Bottom line is the cap can be manipulated, we all know that.  But how well you manage that manipulation will determine if your SB window is 1-2 years or 5-10 years.  I would much rather be the Patriots dynasty than what the Rams just did.  Not only will the Rams likely not make it back to the SB this year, but they won’t likely win another one any time soon.  Yes still they got one, but again, it’s the first time in history that has happened, not historically a sound strategy to get one.  
 

But again, the good news is we have Beane who understands maybe better than anyone in the league right now in how to balance aggression and intelligence when it comes to the cap.  So we are in excellent hands and our future is bright.  

[Warcodered]

Maybe the real salary cap is the friends we made along the way.

[Alphadawg7]

18 minutes ago, Virgil said:

Shouldn’t this be a on Saints forum?

Funny thing is Saints haven’t won anything, are a total mess, and future is bleak and depends on a trade that may not happen to save their future.  Yet people citing them as if they are the model to follow hahaha.

 

Only on TSW

[MAJBobby]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Cap is important, more important than fans want to admit.  The difference is that we have a GM who is a master at managing the cap.  
 

Most teams don’t have that luxury and it blows up in their face.  People want to cite the Rams, but over look the fact that while they did win the SB this year, it’s also the first time in history it’s actually worked.  It’s not suddenly the blue print to throw away all your cap and draft picks to push for a 1 year SB run.  It’s historically not worked a heck of a lot more than it has worked.  
 

Let’s put it this way, more teams have won a SB with a crappy QB than teams have won by mortgaging their future to buy one.  And neither is an ideal choice on how to get one. 
 

Saints keep getting brought up, but why?  They haven’t won anything.  Why are they the poster child for why you dont need to worry about the cap?  They have consistently had cap issues and had to lose players because of it, going all the way back to Brees favorite target Jimmy Graham.  Saints lost players already this year and still don’t have a QB.  They aren’t winning anything this year unless they land Watson (which I don’t think they will).  And if they do get Watson, key players will have to be sent to Houston in trade as part of the deal too for both compensation and cap reasons.  So no guarantee they can still win a SB even after the trade.  This won’t be the same saints roster of last year with Watson.  
 

Bottom line is the cap can be manipulated, we all know that.  But how well you manage that manipulation will determine if your SB window is 1-2 years or 5-10 years.  I would much rather be the Patriots dynasty than what the Rams just did.  Not only will the Rams likely not make it back to the SB this year, but they won’t likely win another one any time soon.  Yes still they got one, but again, it’s the first time in history that has happened, not historically a sound strategy to get one.  
 

But again, the good news is we have Beane who understands maybe better than anyone in the league right now in how to balance aggression and intelligence when it comes to the cap.  So we are in excellent hands and our future is bright.  

I understand all that, but at this point I think it is clear we have a GM that knows how to smartly manipulate it.  So If I was fans I would stop worrying about it as a driver for their planning when they look at players.  And I will be taking my own advice on this as well.  I did not think we would clear space for a premier pass rusher.  We did.  So know I know Beane WILL in all future as well if he sees a player he wants.  

 

And in the typical Beane fashion is will be a Just in time clearance, leaving things alone UNTIL he needs it

[Dat]

So what i hear everyone saying is that they are basically like Bills comp picks.

 

They are real and exist except they don't really. We should worry about it, but then again who cares.

 

It applies to some teams sometimes, but usually not. They are based on a formula that no one knows, but can be manipulated to possibly change the outcome, or not.

 

Got it! Thanks.

[Alphadawg7]

9 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

I understand all that, but at this point I think it is clear we have a GM that knows how to smartly manipulate it.  So If I was fans I would stop worrying about it as a driver for their planning when they look at players.  And I will be taking my own advice on this as well.  I did not think we would clear space for a premier pass rusher.  We did.  So know I know Beane WILL in all future as well if he sees a player he wants.  

 

And in the typical Beane fashion is will be a Just in time clearance, leaving things alone UNTIL he needs it

I agree to an extent here…I agree in trusting and believing in Beane to make the moves necessary and in a way that’s best for the team and it’s future.  
 

But fans that “worry” about the cap are usually not really worrying about the cap, they are usually countering some outrageous and ridiculous approach or expectations by other fans here who would NOT do it the right way compared to Beane.  
 

I mean if it was up to the fans here, not only would we make this big signing, we would make 2 more and then also trade all our draft picks for another.  
 

So, I think the people you see most often advocating for not being stupid about our cap are usually countering ridiculous things people want done that are to the extreme.  

[FilthyBeast]

The cap is very real but the Bills are using strategic maneuvering like every contender has done in recent years (i.e. the Saints) to build and maintain a championship caliber roster.

 

And just like with the Saints and every other team that does this, you can only kick the can so far down the road and eventually they'll will be pain points along the way in terms of having to purge the roster of veteran contracts.

 

But obviously the goal is to win a championship(s) before that day comes and seize the opportunity in the current window.

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I agree to an extent here…I agree in trusting and believing in Beane to make the moves necessary and in a way that’s best for the team and it’s future.  
 

But fans that “worry” about the cap are usually not really worrying about the cap, they are usually countering some outrageous and ridiculous approach or expectations by other fans here who would NOT do it the right way compared to Beane.  
 

I mean if it was up to the fans here, not only would we make this big signing, we would make 2 more and then also trade all our draft picks for another.  
 

So, I think the people you see most often advocating for not being stupid about our cap are usually countering ridiculous things people want done that are to the extreme.  

I can understand that as well.  

[JaCrispy]

2 hours ago, 17islongenough said:

Dude nothing is real

In the immortal words of Morpheus “What is REAL”? 😉

[Big Turk]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Come on, man, it's extremely like it. No, it's not a perfect parallel. But yes, it's very much like it.

 

And the cap does not grow every year. Covid shows it doesn't. Football has continued making more money for a while now. There's no guarantee that will continue. It's like saying that my salary has gone up every year for 15 years, so it will obviously go up forever. That's one possibility. But it's not guaranteed. That's simply an assumption. And plenty of careless teams have kicked cans down the road that have gone far far beyond the increases.

 

And the cap doesn't go up nearly as fast as you're saying. Next year's cap is $208. In 2006 it was $102M. That's 16 years to double. Teams get in cap trouble way way before 16 years have passed.

 

Kicking cans further down the road is almost precisely like revolving your credit card debt. The debt disappears from the current year's total. But you haven't gotten rid of the debt. You just delayed paying it. The more debts you keep delaying, the more your future debt sheets will be clogged, and there will come a reckoning.

 

 

 

This is very fair.

 

 

 

It ain't about just throwing money away. It's about eventually reaching a point where a massive blood-letting is necessary, like when we were forced to cut Bruce, Thurman and Andre, in one day.

 

Then again the Saints showed how easy it is to manipulate the cap without really losing anyone of value...they went from being $70 million over the cap to $30 million under it within a span of a few weeks.

[SCBills]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Funny thing is Saints haven’t won anything, are a total mess, and future is bleak and depends on a trade that may not happen to save their future.  Yet people citing them as if they are the model to follow hahaha.

 

Only on TSW

 

FWIW, every reputable reporter has them as the favorites for Watson right now.  They've already freed up the money by restructuring a handful of players.  

 

If they can keep that defense in tact and simply part with picks, it obviously hurts their future roster building ability, but allows them to give Watson an Offense with Kamara and Thomas.   Watch them somehow find a way to afford Armstead as well.  

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

FWIW, every reputable reporter has them as the favorites for Watson right now.  They've already freed up the money by restructuring a handful of players.  

 

If they can keep that defense in tact and simply part with picks, it obviously hurts their future roster building ability, but allows them to give Watson an Offense with Kamara and Thomas.   Watch them somehow find a way to afford Armstead as well.  

 

They already lost players, including on defense, and likely at LT too.  People keep assuming both Kamara and Thomas will be there still, but there is chatter Kamara may have to be included in the trade for compensation and cap reasons.  So no lock he is still there once the trade would conclude.  

 

Just saying, this will not be the same roster as last year plus Watson.  And they will continue losing guys each year in salary cap hell they are already in, and will still lose more this year even after the trade to get under the cap.  And they wont have the draft picks to replace that talent either.  

 

So while the Saints will be better with Watons than without, they are no where near a lock for a SB birth, let alone a SB win.  In fact, it can be argued he had as good of teams in Houston at times (not his last season where they got rid of guys, but the years prior) yet he never got anywhere near a SB and has just one playoff win (against us where we got screwed multiple times by the refs or he losses that game too).  No one knows if Thomas can even hold up for a season at this point or what kind of player he will be at this point.  They don't have a lot of other weapons on offense besides Kamara, who also has started dealing with injuries.  The defense already lost a key player and now the OL is gonna take a big hit too.  

 

So, once again, Saints have consistently been in cap hell for a while now and have zero SB trophies to show for it during that time, not even a SB birth.  They are not the "blueprint" for anything but how to have cap problems at this point.  And it is going to take a monster rare trade to try and bail them out.  If they miss out on Watson, they are still in cap hell with no QB and a weaker team still.  That is what my point is, they are not some success story to follow like people keep touting here on how to manage the cap.  They suck at it actually and one of the worst examples of cap management in the league.  

 

And I still think he is going to Atlanta if you ask me, I don't care what the "reporters" are saying...I think he is going there and teaming up with Allen Robinson and Fuller personally.  But hey, I could be wrong...either way...

[ColoradoBills]

I mentioned this yesterday and I will repeat myself today.

A team like New Orleans pays for these cap space moves all the time.

In the last 2 years they have accrued a debt of $80M in Dead Cap.

A huge chunk of it is from Void Years.

 

As of now (this stuff is constantly changing) the Bills are on the hook for $350k of "Void years" debt next year due to the Haack restructure.

In comparison it's just the start of the year and the Saints are on the hook already for over $16M in void debt next year.

 

Each team in the league knows the cost and it's up to each GM to weigh how much they want to use this tool.

Nothing is "free".

[SCBills]

14 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

They already lost players, including on defense, and likely at LT too.  People keep assuming both Kamara and Thomas will be there still, but there is chatter Kamara may have to be included in the trade for compensation and cap reasons.  So no lock he is still there once the trade would conclude.  

 

Just saying, this will not be the same roster as last year plus Watson.  And they will continue losing guys each year in salary cap hell they are already in, and will still lose more this year even after the trade to get under the cap.  And they wont have the draft picks to replace that talent either.  

 

So while the Saints will be better with Watons than without, they are no where near a lock for a SB birth, let alone a SB win.  In fact, it can be argued he had as good of teams in Houston at times (not his last season where they got rid of guys, but the years prior) yet he never got anywhere near a SB and has just one playoff win (against us where we got screwed multiple times by the refs or he losses that game too).  No one knows if Thomas can even hold up for a season at this point or what kind of player he will be at this point.  They don't have a lot of other weapons on offense besides Kamara, who also has started dealing with injuries.  The defense already lost a key player and now the OL is gonna take a big hit too.  

 

So, once again, Saints have consistently been in cap hell for a while now and have zero SB trophies to show for it during that time, not even a SB birth.  They are not the "blueprint" for anything but how to have cap problems at this point.  And it is going to take a monster rare trade to try and bail them out.  If they miss out on Watson, they are still in cap hell with no QB and a weaker team still.  That is what my point is, they are not some success story to follow like people keep touting here on how to manage the cap.  They suck at it actually and one of the worst examples of cap management in the league.  

 

And I still think he is going to Atlanta if you ask me, I don't care what the "reporters" are saying...I think he is going there and teaming up with Allen Robinson and Fuller personally.  But hey, I could be wrong...either way...

 

If the end result is SB Trophies, I don't necessarily disagree with you.  However, for most fanbases, it's not Super Bowl or bust...and remembering to back before the Bills got Josh Allen, I'd be pointing to the Saints as to why the cap doesn't matter as well.  

 

That said, of course the cap matters.. if it didn't, the Rams with Stafford, Donald, Ramsey and Kupp would just match/exceed what we offered and keep Miller.   

 

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by SCBills

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

4 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

It is Real.  But it very pliable and easily manipulated when you have an owner with CASH.

 

But eventually Bills will come due, the proper management is making sure those Bills come due in years that it is manageable.  And Beane has SHOWN that he understands that.

This. People don't realize that all of these salary-to-signing-bonus conversions hit the owners directly. It's money they wouldn't have to pay otherwise. You have to thank the Pegulas and hope they continue to be willing to do it.

[saundena]

4 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

It is Real.  But it very pliable and easily manipulated when you have an owner with CASH.

 

 

Can somebody explain this to me?  I'm woefully ignorant on how the salary cap works.  How does having cash on hand help manipulate the salary cap?  The cap is the same for all teams, so it's not like Pegula can go into his safe, drill more wells, etc. and "find" money to pay these guys.  Relative to each other, shouldn't every team be spending around the same amount year over year on average on players (whether they are on the roster or another team)? 

[MAJBobby]

5 minutes ago, saundena said:

 

Can somebody explain this to me?  I'm woefully ignorant on how the salary cap works.  How does having cash on hand help manipulate the salary cap?  The cap is the same for all teams, so it's not like Pegula can go into his safe, drill more wells, etc. and "find" money to pay these guys.  Relative to each other, shouldn't every team be spending around the same amount year over year on average on players (whether they are on the roster or another team)? 

Because the owner is Willing to convert differed payments (weekly game checks) to a massive one time check.  So example when you take 17M in base salary (1M a week for the football season) convert to Bonus.  That owner has to cut that 17M check immediately.  Multiply that by multiple restructures and signings your owner could cut 100M in checks on Day 1 of UFA. 

 

Unlike the cash to cap of Ralph that would pay but not pay big bonuses to manipulate cap hits.  And essentially wait until the shared money comes in (what sets the Cap)

Edited March 17, 2022 by MAJBobby

[saundena]

6 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

This. People don't realize that all of these salary-to-signing-bonus conversions hit the owners directly. It's money they wouldn't have to pay otherwise. You have to thank the Pegulas and hope they continue to be willing to do it.

Ok so this response posted just before my last question.  I still don't get it though.  Why couldn't then the most wealthy owner give everybody ridiculously large contracts to attract all the best players in the league- paying it as a signing bonus if what your saying is that it doesn't impact the cap number.