Sullivan: Bills' McDermott choked away Super Bowl-caliber season

[extrahammer]

I used to like Jerry, I try to be a realist, then for whatever reason, it seems like he went all in on embellishing this sensational counter personality. It's not cute nor real, I think his best days of writing are far behind him. Just wanted to say that in case he reads this. 

[mannc]

1 minute ago, Niagara Dude said:

Dude unless Bass is stupid  I am sure he knows the difference and when you watch the replay he takes a big run up to the ball.  Second year players don't usually ignore their HC and his intent was clearly to kick it through the end zone. Sounds more like Sean did not want to be questioned about his decision and talked about execution.  Execution is if he kicks it out of bounds and they get the ball at the 40

Read my post again…I think you and I are in agreement 

[muppy]

4 hours ago, QCity said:

Even Jerry is throwing a tantrum. I know, I know, you're not going to click on it (you will). 

 

Sullivan: Bills' McDermott choked away Super Bowl-caliber season

good morning.

 

I wish his picture hadn't been front and center I dont want to see that mess. lol Anyway this to me reads as a very predictable factual typical Sullivan piece.  Im out of market so I don't read this guy very often unless posted here.  Does he have an ax to grind with the Bills or is he just telling things as He sees it. Just his name sends off my skeptical spidey senses just from the general impression I get from 2bd regarding this guy. 

 

I skimmed it and thought yeah yeah yeah yeah....and then it was over for me. I'm still not right with Sundays events yet......exhale

 

m

[NoHuddleKelly12]

It was a fair article overall imho. Good on you Jerry. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Green Bay wasted a large portion of Aaron Rodgers career.  Dan Marino has stated several times how he always thought he'd get another shot at winning a Super Bowl.  

 

 

After the playoff drought, no one should be taking this recent success for granted.  Nothing is promised in this league.

Wasted how? Many coaches have been fired during Rodgers career. He's had 2 head coaches, multiple defensive coordinators. 

 

When is a career not wasted? Rodgers won a Super Bowl and won many division titles.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Chicken Boo]

Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Wasted how? Many coaches have been fired during Rodgers career. He's had 2 head coaches, multiple defensive coordinators. 

 

Failing to have a solid running game for him to lean on, porous defenses and bad coaching. 

[Buffalo ill]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Allen's prime time lasts for another 15 years.  And I hope McD looks at that last 13 seconds and realizes that he has to make his defense be more aggressive.  

In 15 years the nfl will be flag or "2 hand touch" football.  I hope Buffalo wins a superbowl before soft people turn the game into soccer.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Failing to have a solid running game for him to lean on, porous defenses and bad coaching. 

They won a lot of games. I'm not following. 

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Failing to have a solid running game for him to lean on, porous defenses and bad coaching. 

And constantly using top draft picks on defense instead of trying to give your Hall of Fame franchise QB the best possible weapons…sound familiar?

[muppy]

5 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

 

I wouldn't call it choke more than I'd say it was simply the incorrect strategy and decisions given the situation.  What I believe McDermott and Frazier failed to account for most in their decision was the fact the Chiefs had their 3 time outs.  If they would have had zero or one time out left then it might have made more sense.  That to me is the failure. Failure to factor in the time outs into the decision, failure to account for the fact the sidelines meant nothing to the Chiefs in how they'd play the final 13 seconds of the game.  Just bad judgment and thinking based on the situation they faced.  And they had plenty of time to run through the thought process between the Bills score and the kick off over a long commercial break in the game.  So not enough time to think it through can't be an excuse. 

 

Excellent post. I chose to bolded because for me it is the crux of the matter as clearly stated as I've read. And I agree with it.

 

The word choke referring to air constriction or something causing someone to choke is a completely different concept than when it is used in a football context. It is Meant to show disgust,  ineptitude, FAILURE...........it's a visceral word that if sullivan REALLY wanted to acquiesce and not rub the Bills nose in it..he didnt have to use it..but he did.......and a lot of people identify with it and agree he's right. But That word choice in a literary sense speaks volumes and the Bills heard it loud and clear. It sucks to be called a choker.

 

m

 

@leh-nerd skin-erd

Edited January 25, 2022 by muppy

[Chicken Boo]

Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They won a lot of games. I'm not following. 

 

They won a lot of games because of Aaron Rodgers.  Ted Thompson was a notoriously cheap GM who didn't believe in spending money in FA to help build the roster and they held on to Mike McCarthy for about 3-4 seasons longer than they should have.  

 

Imagine a scenario where the Bills do something like this every year, failing to reach the Super Bowl while Allen plays his ass off.  That's wasteful.

 

 

[Logic]

I'm of two minds about this.

On the one hand, when evaluating a head coach, you can't just separate a few bad decisions in one game from the entirety of the season (and really, the previous few seasons, the building of this team and its culture, etc) that allowed the team to be in that game and with a chance to win it.

In other words, it's easy to say "McDermott failed in a big moment, get rid of him!", but you're not looking at all of the moments throughout the season in which he did NOT fail. What gives the bad ending of the Chiefs game more weight than the absolute dominance in the Patriots game that preceded it? Is McDermott the guy whose team TWICE destroyed the brilliant Belichick, or is he the guy who choked in the KC game? He's both. If you're going to isolate a coach's bad decisions, it's only fair to weight them against all the GOOD decisions, the well coached game, the totality of his body of work.

McDermott is a very good head coach. Does anyone here doubt for one second that if the Bills fired him, he'd be snapped up by another team immediately? The grass is always greener on the other side...until it isn't. Whatever coach you want to insert into the head job here...there's no guarantee that he has the team winning 10+ games every year to begin with. Don't think that an elite QB guarantees winning seasons. We've seen lots of great QBs' prime years squandered by being paired with lackluster coaches and deficient rosters.

On the other hand...it IS fair to ask the following question: Is Sean McDermott the right coach to get the most out of Josh Allen's career? He's a detail oriented, player friendly (but still not a pushover) leader of men. He's built a great culture, demands accountability, and almost always has his team ready and playing well. At the same time, he'll never NOT be a defensive minded head coach. He'll never NOT have a steak of old school conservatism in his coaching. Does it make more sense to pair Allen with an elite offensive mind, and one who is not afraid to constantly push the envelope and be aggressive?

Is this all just "prisoner of the moment" stuff? Is any of it legitimate? It seems PREPOSTEROUS to propose getting rid of the second most successful head coach of the Bills in the past 40 years. But...is it? Bottom line: IS McDermott the guy who can guide Josh Allen to a Super Bowl? I would say we certainly can't and shouldn't move on from him now. That would be insane. But how many more non Super Bowl seasons would it take? At what point what Beane/Pegulas throw in the towel on McDermott?
 

[Niagara Dude]

20 minutes ago, mannc said:

Read my post again…I think you and I are in agreement 

Cheers brother

[Freddie's Dead]

We need to face facts.  McDermott could ***** up a wet dream.  We all saw it Sunday night.

[BillsSbSoon]

Hes not wrong at all, and reading that makes it sting a little more than it already does. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

11 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

They won a lot of games because of Aaron Rodgers.  Ted Thompson was a notoriously cheap GM who didn't believe in spending money in FA to help build the roster and they held on to Mike McCarthy for about 3-4 seasons longer than they should have.  

 

Imagine a scenario where the Bills do something like this every year, failing to reach the Super Bowl while Allen plays his ass off.  That's wasteful.

 

 

I remember people saying NE didn't draft that great. They never had great WRs other than Moss for a few years. No great RBs. Great TE. 

 

But anyways why are you predicting something that's not even reality? The Bills have closed the gap on KC in 1 season. We're talking about being Super Bowl caliber for 2 seasons, and they already caught KC.  It hasn't been a long time.

 

Maybe I'm missing something. What exactly aren't the Bills doing? Why don't you believe they will do what's needed to finish the job next year?

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[The Frankish Reich]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Going into that kickoff the Bills had a 94.3% win probability

I noticed that (think it was in the WSJ article). Off the top of my head I would have set the win probability much higher - probably 99.5% or something. And remember, that's "win probability," which includes the chance of KC tying and then the Bills ultimately winning in OT.

So you're right - with a little perspective now, we can say:

- it was an extremely unlikely outcome that KC would tie (5 in 100 such scenarios; probably somewhat higher if we say "win or tie")

- it wasn't, however, a Music City Miracle level of improbability, which was probably more like 99.9%

- and this wasn't kicking it off to an average offense over the period of time the win probability is calculated (say, kicking off to 2021 Steelers - a roughly average scoring offense this year, adjusting for the higher scoring environment of 2020-21). Then again the Bills are ostensibly the best defense of 2021 ...

 

At any rate, this was no Music City Miracle. It was astounding when it happened, but in retrospect ... crap like this happens more than we think it does.

 

 

[Niagara Dude]

31 minutes ago, mannc said:

Read my post again…I think you and I are in agreement 

This kind of Chinese fire drill that we saw is not acceptable if you expect to be a champion,  I really don't want to hear about excuses.  Sean took timeouts and still we had players  well off the line and conceding easy pitch & catch opportunities.  Never mind the kick off,  how someone explain we we did not have at two defenders committed to jamming or even holding the Chiefs two best players Hill & Kelce who gained 45 yards on back to back wide open passes and you had Bills players protecting the sideline when the Chiefs still had all of their timeouts.  Someone needs to own this car wreck finish

[TheFunPolice]

Choking is when you don't play the way you are capable of playing. 

 

Rodgers is a perennial choker, who plays amazing all season then vanishes in the playoffs. He scored 10 points at home with the #1 seed. Zero urgency. Zero passion. Zero heart. Close to zero results. 

 

The Bills (and especially Allen) did not choke. Maybe the defense, that I would entertain. Their performance was very Rodgers-like (#1 rank and vanished when it mattered).

 

There's getting beat when you go down swinging (Allen) then there's getting beat and you didn't even show up (Rodgers every year and the defense in the 13 seconds). Hill and Kelce caught the ball and weren't touched for 20 yards. Cover them. If they beat you they beat you. But the D didn't even play defense. 

 

 

[mannc]

Just now, Niagara Dude said:

This kind of Chinese fire drill that we saw is not acceptable if you expect to be a champion,  I really don't want to hear about excuses.  Sean took timeouts and still we had players  well off the line and conceding easy pitch & catch opportunities.  Never mind the kick off,  how someone explain we we did not have at two defenders committed to jamming or even holding the Chiefs two best players Hill & Kelce who gained 45 yards on back to back wide open passes and you had Bills players protecting the sideline when the Chiefs still had all of their timeouts.  Someone needs to own this car wreck finish

Yeah, the details don’t really matter…it was a s**tshow at the worst possible time, and that the HC’s responsibility.  

[Chicken Boo]

14 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I remember people saying NE didn't draft that great. They never had great WRs other than Moss for a few years. No great RBs. Great TE. 

 

But anyways why are you predicting something that's not even reality? The Bills have closed the gap on KC in 1 season. We're talking about being Super Bowl caliber for 2 seasons, and they already caught KC.  It hasn't been a long time.

 

Maybe I'm missing something. What exactly aren't the Bills doing? Why don't you believe they will do what's needed to finish the job next year?

 

 

I'm not predicting anything.  I'm just saying not to take this recent success for granted.  There's no guarantee that this team will continue to get better or that McDermott's questionable coaching in big spots will improve.

[nedboy7]

Maybe people want to relive the 20 years when we had coaches who didn’t choke. 

[Niagara Dude]

5 minutes ago, mannc said:

Yeah, the details don’t really matter…it was a s**tshow at the worst possible time, and that the HC’s responsibility.  

For sure,  you cannot have that and I feel terrible because Allen plays the game of his life and our coaches throw it away because they are not all on the same page. Every single pundit just shakes their head watching 3 plays after Allen again gives the Bills a lead with 13 secs left. Amateur hour

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Livinginthepast said:

How many people commenting on this post didn't even read the article because , "ooooh its bitter Jerry Sullivan" . If someone else had wrote it you would have at least read it and maybe agreed with its points but because its critical Jerry, the eternal pessimist, you skip it and criticize the messenger? I hate to tell you, he is right. Yes, its not anything stupendously original, his take is identical to what fans here said soon after the game on Sunday night. What I like about Sullivan is that he is one of the few media people who holds the franchise to account for its errors and says things that fans say. If anything we need more people like him to light a fire under these coaches and players.  Our media has too many people who sugarcoat their questions to coaches and are happy for the team to get their playoff participation medal. Jerry at least sticks his neck out there and asks some tough questions. The defense after the windy Pats game debacle should have been embarrassed by their efforts and I am glad that Jerry asked that question. Strange coincidence how they responded after that in the season.  On Sunday the Bills had 13 secs to force KC into the offseason and they blew it 100%. The special teams were ordered to do that stupid kickoff (if not then tell us McD , Whose decision was it?). Its simply non debatable that the defense that was called on those two plays with 13 seconds left was utterly moronic. You hadn't got to Mahomes ALL GAME but yet once again you rush 4? 4 exhausted lineman? who even at max speed at the start of the game would not get to Mahomes in time (especially not when he is forced to release the ball within 3-4 seconds). Why not rush 2 and clog up the passing lanes with more linebackers or DBs?  You don't at least have double teams on Kelce and Hill? You don't bump Kelce and Hill at the line? You don't take a holding penalty to eat clock? (and BTW I dont think the refs would have the cojones to call some intentional holding cheating penalty to put time back on there). Even in the OT you don't burn your timeout on their drive? why not? Had the Bills just conceded after they lost the coin toss?. What are you going to use those time outs for after the game? All of what happened in those 13 secs and after in OT just exemplified my worst fears about McD, which are that he is an excellent coach on many levels but some of his in game decisions show a lack of being able to think on his feet.  You would think that these end game scenarios are practiced over and over by NFL coaches so at least in that moment they DONT have to think under the pressure, they just know that in THIS particular situation you should do this particular defense in order to maximize your chances of success. That's what should have happened. Why didn't  Frazier and McD have multiple plans worked out for these late game scenarios before the game?? Instead we get some amateurish knee jerk vanilla prevent as if we were up by 4 PTS!! There simply isnt any excuse for losing like we did. The coaches should be putting players in their best position to WIN and on Sunday the coaches in the most crucial moments of the season, put a tired and hard working defensive team in the best position to FAIL. If it takes Jerry Sullivan and other media (who dont fear hurting the coaches and players feelings) and fans to call this out and force the team to get better then I welcome this 100%! 

And he uses paragraphs.

[starrymessenger]

As has been said, both the kickoff and the defensive alignments are of the same type and mindset. Play not to lose, not to win. Overly conservative (or flat out cowardly) even when the odds are 95% in your favour if you play correct situational football. A huge spotlight was focussed on that deficiency last Sunday. 
The question going forward is can the HC learn from his mistakes. Frankly I don’t think it’s a question of just X’s and O’s. Its a character flaw. That makes it a lot harder.

[NewEra]

I won’t.  No chance

[muppy]

53 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I noticed that (think it was in the WSJ article). Off the top of my head I would have set the win probability much higher - probably 99.5% or something. And remember, that's "win probability," which includes the chance of KC tying and then the Bills ultimately winning in OT.

So you're right - with a little perspective now, we can say:

- it was an extremely unlikely outcome that KC would tie (5 in 100 such scenarios; probably somewhat higher if we say "win or tie")

- it wasn't, however, a Music City Miracle level of improbability, which was probably more like 99.9%

- and this wasn't kicking it off to an average offense over the period of time the win probability is calculated (say, kicking off to 2021 Steelers - a roughly average scoring offense this year, adjusting for the higher scoring environment of 2020-21). Then again the Bills are ostensibly the best defense of 2021 ...

 

At any rate, this was no Music City Miracle. It was astounding when it happened, but in retrospect ... crap like this happens more than we think it does.

 

 

the officiating debacle I feared may occur  did not.........The coaching ended up being one now clearly.  And Then the timeout rule giving so much advantage to the flip of a coin with NO recourse for the other team. That rule  may be changed due to our game. If there is any good I can find beyond the obvious stellar Josh Allen and Gabe Davis stats THAT is one thing...doesnt help us now but at least in the future it may make overtime rules more fair to both teams.

 

m

Edited January 25, 2022 by muppy

[Buffalo_Stampede]

39 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

I'm not predicting anything.  I'm just saying not to take this recent success for granted.  There's no guarantee that this team will continue to get better or that McDermott's questionable coaching in big spots will improve.

Watch more football is my suggestion because every coach makes questionable decisions every single week. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

He'll never NOT have a steak of old school conservatism in his coaching. Does it make more sense to pair Allen with an elite offensive mind, and one who is not afraid to constantly push the envelope and be aggressive?

Well, he did go for it twice on 4th down early in the game.

No, on defense he'll never be Buddy Ryan. But we kind of tried that whole Ryan thing and moved on.

Remember when Andy Reid was the worst in-game decison maker in the NFL coaching ranks?

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2020/1/10/21060074/andy-reid-clock-management-kansas-city-chiefs-divisional-round-houston-texans

He seems to know how to manage a 13 second clock now.

[Sweet Lou]

6 hours ago, QCity said:

Even Jerry is throwing a tantrum. I know, I know, you're not going to click on it (you will). 

 

Sullivan: Bills' McDermott choked away Super Bowl-caliber season

No I won’t.  Because to me, Sullivan is a walking turd.

[Joe Ferguson]

 

[extrahammer]

I think this is just sensationalism from Jerry, he's not entirely wrong, but he is exaggerating. Details do matter. Play calling in the first half after the first drive? That's on Daboll, McD is his boss, so I get it. But if we're calling the first half like we do in the 2nd, it's a different ball game. And I understand the urgency of winning now. But the reality is there are many pieces to this puzzle. The realist in me knows, as you all do, McD isn't going anywhere for at least the next two seasons, likely even longer, whether you like it or not. So can he fine tune a few pieces this offseason? Especially in the killer mentality department? I think he can. Details do matter, Leslie Frazier is the DC and played the sidelines while KC had 3 timeouts. 

 

The real key, is if McD can make that next step. It's hard for me to say he can't. Jerry has also been blaming Poyer and Hyde, which again I think is a stretch. 

[Patrick Duffy]

3 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson said:

 

So frustrating....one would think McD would have corrected it

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

6 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Extremely fair and accurate accounting of the game, reflecting several key themes that have been ALL OVER this message board since the moment the game ended.

 

He has high praise of Allen, speaks of the folly of the current OT rule, and offers fair and accurate criticism of McDermott's playoff in-game management, which is not particularly strong.

 

He also correctly points out that the Pegulas will almost certainly not have any issues with McDermott...but perhaps someone should be asking if what McD brings to the table is enough to match Josh's promise.

 

I'm sure this won't stop an army of posters here from trashing Jerry and the column, despite never reading a word of it.

 

Such is the way of ignorance.

 

 

Nah.  It's overly emotional drivel designed to tug at the heart strings of the reader and tap into the anger and frustration of a franchise fan base.   The fact that the defense failed to make a stop is obvious, and criticism on that point it fair.  Words and phrases that characterize---"choke", "hide behind", "self-serving" and "froze" are better suited for middle school playgrounds (or amongst fans desperate to make sense of a heartbreaking loss) than in serious analysis of a professional sporting event by a journalist.  

 

That said, this sort of work appeals to some readers for any number of reasons. There's no need to trash the guy, or his column, some people like this sort of thing. 

[muppy]

1 minute ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Nah.  It's overly emotional drivel designed to tug at the heart strings of the reader and tap into the anger and frustration of a franchise fan base.   The fact that the defense failed to make a stop is obvious, and criticism on that point it fair.  Words and phrases that characterize---"choke", "hide behind", "self-serving" and "froze" are better suited for middle school playgrounds (or amongst fans desperate to make sense of a heartbreaking loss) than in serious analysis of a professional sporting event by a journalist.  

 

That said, this sort of work appeals to some readers for any number of reasons. There's no need to trash the guy, or his column, some people like this sort of thing. 

Leo I love this post. Our thoughts don't exactly mirror but close enough. I wish you'd post on the football side more. 

 

Sincerely muppy who wishes she was in Mupstate NY right now 🙂

 

haha

 

[Fallsnative01]

I absolutely agree with Jerry 100%. Period. 

[EasternOHBillsFan]

6 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Extremely fair and accurate accounting of the game, reflecting several key themes that have been ALL OVER this message board since the moment the game ended.

 

I'm sure this won't stop an army of posters here from trashing Jerry and the column, despite never reading a word of it.

 

Such is the way of ignorance.

 

 

 

I think we found the ignorance, and it's not everyone else here...

 

This from the same man who asked the most ridiculous question earlier this season and pissed off the team and now tries to haunt the Bills and the Mafia with his neverending negative soapbox diatribes?

 

No thanks. I'm not going to read it because he's not worth reading... it's the same old trash we have seen sow for years from Sully, but hey, call me whatever you want, but I know better and I am surely not ignorant.  

Edited January 25, 2022 by EasternOHBillsFan

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

12 minutes ago, muppy said:

Leo I love this post. Our thoughts don't exactly mirror but close enough. I wish you'd post on the football side more. 

 

Sincerely muppy who wishes she was in Mupstate NY right now 🙂

 

haha

 

I don't know enough about x's and o's to contribute all that much here, though I read and pay particular attention to a few posters.  

 

I do know, for example, that I cannot understand why there was no defender within tackling distance of Kelce/Hill on those last two painful plays, know that that shouldn't have happened in a perfect world, and would love to hear why things played out that way.  I also know I'll never fully be briefed on that. 

 

I know that I think McDermott is a very good coach based on his track record here, the focus he seems to bring to the table, and based on the response(s) I see from his players about him.  I know I don't care if he claps.   

 

I know that in life, there are do-ers, and sometimes where time and or money conspire,  there are people that sit in the peanut gallery complaining about what the do-ers do.  McD's job is hard, JS's job is easy.  I tend to support, or at least empathize, with  the guy with the hard job over the guy with the easy job, especially when the easy work is predicated on trashing someone else. 

 

All that said, I wanted to fire my cell phone through my television during and after the game Sunday, and Jerry Sullivan had nothing on me in the moment.  

 

Btw--spoke with a close friend over the last few days who is a 9ers fan.  He's got near total recall of all the heartbreaking losses that have occurred to the 9ers in his 50+ years.  He texted me about 7 examples, all of which rival '13 seconds' if taken from the perspective of a 9ers fan.  The difference of course is his team has rings, but still, someone's heart is always getting broken.  I'm learning that as time goes on. 

 

Going to cold af in Mupstate the next few days-- --I wish I was in Florida. 

 

 

[Patrick Duffy]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

Frazier? I think he means McDermott. You know, the Head coach who specializes in defense? 

Or maybe both....

[muppy]

1 minute ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I don't know enough about x's and o's to contribute all that much here, though I read and pay particular attention to a few posters.  

 

I do know, for example, that I cannot understand why there was no defender within tackling distance of Kelce/Hill on those last two painful plays, know that that shouldn't have happened in a perfect world, and would love to hear why things played out that way.  I also know I'll never fully be briefed on that. 

 

I know that I think McDermott is a very good coach based on his track record here, the focus he seems to bring to the table, and based on the response(s) I see from his players about him.  I know I don't care if he claps.   

 

I know that in life, there are do-ers, and sometimes where time and or money conspire,  there are people that sit in the peanut gallery complaining about what the do-ers do.  McD's job is hard, JS's job is easy.  I tend to support, or at least empathize, with  the guy with the hard job over the guy with the easy job, especially when the easy work is predicated on trashing someone else. 

 

All that said, I wanted to fire my cell phone through my television during and after the game Sunday, and Jerry Sullivan had nothing on me in the moment.  

 

Btw--spoke with a close friend over the last few days who is a 9ers fan.  He's got near total recall of all the heartbreaking losses that have occurred to the 9ers in his 50+ years.  He texted me about 7 examples, all of which rival '13 seconds' if taken from the perspective of a 9ers fan.  The difference of course is his team has rings, but still, someone's heart is always getting broken.  I'm learning that as time goes on. 

 

Going to cold af in Mupstate the next few days-- --I wish I was in Florida. 

 

 

ha HA...SUCCESS......sneakily the mupster found a way to entice leo to post in the football thread VICTORY 

 

lol I needed my leo fix Im proud of myself actually 

 

lmaooooooooooo

 

thanks man I needed the grins 🙂

 

m

 

PS: Florida Schmorida..there are some great flight deals out of EWR right? at least that's what I heard.....but I catch your drift..u want away from drifts as in Snow TCK...ok ill shutit haha m