Bills opponents called for defensive holding only twice all year on more than 500 dropbacks. How is this even possible?

[Thriftygamer83]

Just now, Billzgobowlin said:

I would love for someone to do stats on offensive holding against Bills line.

Lots of insane calls there remember the Houston Texans game?  No holding but instantly everybody stepped up and said yup that's holding.  And, then when the Texans did it.... nope, nothing to see here they drove through the block.... 

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Dan said:

The Pegulas need to take this information, along with the screen captures of Diggs jersey being pulled off him, to the league offices.  Demand a meeting with Goodell and ask for an explanation.  They have to make it known that they too have spent billions of dollars and support they league, so they too need to be treated fairly by the league’s officials. 

They should've done this along time ago. 

1 hour ago, Dan said:

The Pegulas need to take this information, along with the screen captures of Diggs jersey being pulled off him, to the league offices.  Demand a meeting with Goodell and ask for an explanation.  They have to make it known that they too have spent billions of dollars and support they league, so they too need to be treated fairly by the league’s officials. 

They should've done this along time ago. 

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, TC in St. Louis said:

The truth is out.  There were at least 3 flagrant holds on Diggs on Sunday.  Zero calls.  Yet they had no problem flagging #21 on our side for nothing in the first.  

I'm surprised they didn't throw a flag on Tre White . . . 

[DrDawkinstein]

2 hours ago, P Riv said:

 

The stats include TEs, and you have to consider that they run a totally different passing offense.  I have to wonder if all of that play action they run has an effect on whether or not DB's have that "oh sh't" factor and grab the receiver after falling for the fake.  Just postulating, but I think that may play a significant role.

 

Good insight, but it still seems lopsided.

 

However, since you mention it, I wonder what happened to all the presnap motions and play action that helped make our offense so successful last year? And where did it go/Why did we stop?

Did Daboll really think we could just line up and own teams with basic 5-wide formations and plays? Probably. And it's a fireable offense. (Pun intended)

 

[MPT]

1 hour ago, P Riv said:

 

At -4 yds a game net, its tough to make a case that the League is out to get us.  We're averaging 6.8 per game, which looks like every other year's average for us: https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/penalties-per-game

 

 

I wouldn't say the league is out to get us as much as the league is out to help teams like the Patriots and Buccaneers.  Against the Bucs, the Bills had 7 penalties for 65 yards and the Bucs had 4 for 24 yards. That's only 41 yards net, but the combination of non-calls and the bad pass interference directly resulted in a 21 point swing.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

I don't want to seem like a conspiracy theorist but I mean...I am not sure what else to think...it's almost impossible to imagine how this is possible unless the league has given the refs some sort of directive, especially considering how egregious some of the  non-calls have been.  Kind of reminds me of Hughes never getting any calls although he gets held on nearly every pass rush, some of them just amazingly obvious right in front of the refs and no flags.

Crazy how many completely obvious ones there have been too…I think there were triple the amount of uncalled 100% obvious holds that get called every time  in the bucs game as we’ve gotten all season 

[Mark Vader]

2 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

People please stop with this over used term "conspiracy".  The NFL must have a means to steer games. They do it thru their hand picked controlled refs. It's not a conspiracy but a business model. It's been going on for years. Players like Brady get protection because of the revenue they generate. Wake up.

I don't give a damn!

 

We get screwed over constantly. That's what matters.

[Buddo]

Well, the Zebras have had it in for Jerry Hughes for years now, I can only assume it's spreading to other parts of the team. ;(

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillies said:

Bills are one of only 3 teams (Cle, NE) without a single offensive pass interference penalty this year.

Not sure what that means, but interesting.

 

FWIW we were flagged for OPI in the Chiefs game. The penalty was declined though

 

3rd & 10 at KC 40

(8:41 - 3rd) (Shotgun) J.Allen pass incomplete short left to C.Beasley. Penalty on BUF-E.Sanders, Offensive Pass Interference, declined.

[Big Turk]

15 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

I wouldn't say the league is out to get us as much as the league is out to help teams like the Patriots and Buccaneers.  Against the Bucs, the Bills had 7 penalties for 65 yards and the Bucs had 4 for 24 yards. That's only 41 yards net, but the combination of non-calls and the bad pass interference directly resulted in a 21 point swing.

 

Timing is everything...how many free do-overs did TB get on 3rd down with "offsetting penalties"?  At least 2 I remember.

 

How many penalties against us extended drives for TB on 3rd down?

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Big Turk

[Livinginthepast]

Bills players need to do what soccer players do looking for a penalty in the box. They need to feel the hold or the interference which is definitely there (Obviously a lot more times than it is called ) then collapse like they have been hit by a sniper. They need to literally oversell the foul. Otherwise these idiot officials, who in some cases are staring right at the illegal contact or hold, wont get the message.  It seems like cheating or faking but if Diggs had done that in the OT on the 3rd down play where he was held by the jersey, we would have got that foul called and the drive would have continued. The play near the end of regulation I think he did enough to get the officials attention but they STILL didnt call it. 

[Big Turk]

12 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

Bills players need to do what soccer players do looking for a penalty in the box. They need to feel the hold or the interference which is definitely there (Obviously a lot more times than it is called ) then collapse like they have been hit by a sniper. They need to literally oversell the foul. Otherwise these idiot officials, who in some cases are staring right at the illegal contact or hold, wont get the message.  It seems like cheating or faking but if Diggs had done that in the OT on the 3rd down play where he was held by the jersey, we would have got that foul called and the drive would have continued. The play near the end of regulation I think he did enough to get the officials attention but they STILL didnt call it. 

 

I don't get how one official standing 5 feet away from him doesn't throw the flag nor the other official standing under the goalposts looking at the play where he can literally see that two handed jersey grab and pull by the defender ...it boggles my mind how neither of those officials threw a flag on the play.  What the F are they watching??

[Clyde Smith]

Maybe it's an conspiracy with the refs to make every Qb in the 2018 draft look bad. IDK just throwing s*** at the wall. Carry on!

[Big Turk]

51 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I'm surprised they didn't throw a flag on Tre White . . . 

Oh, they love flagging White for holding...which he does a fair amount of I have to admit...but compared to what the Bills receivers have done to them most games, I am not sure it is any worse.

[Freddie's Dead]

1 hour ago, LABILLBACKER said:

They should've done this along time ago. 

They should've done this along time ago. 

 

3 hours ago, Gene1973 said:

Remember the guy on the X-Files who said: "The Buffalo Bills will never win a SuperBowl while I'm still alive".

 

That dude must still be alive...

 

I checked this the other day, and William B. Davis, aka Cigarette Smoking Man, CSM, is still alive.

[RiotAct]

3 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Pretty obvious this would be a great stat for McDermott to bring up before the New England game if he had the balls to do it with how physical their secondary is

you mean to the officials?  Like they’ll care?

[78thealltimegreat]

16 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

you mean to the officials?  Like they’ll care?

No in his press conference that way it will be a focus of the coverage in the game 

[RiotAct]

15 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

No in his press conference that way it will be a focus of the coverage in the game 

got it. I misunderstood 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

4 hours ago, DasNootz said:

For reference, here are the Bills stats vs. teams many consider to be favorites for the NFL (WWE).

 

Buffalo Pass Attempts: 502
Defensive Holding: 2
Def. Pass Interference: 9

 

KC Pass Attempts: 519

Def. Holding: 15
Def. Pass Interference: 2

 

NE Pass Attempts: 394
Def. Holding: 3
Def. Pass Interference: 12

Eh, so 11 vs 17 vs 15

 

Bills are also dinking and dunking a bunch, penalty numbers don’t look as bad. 

[Matt_In_NH]

It would be interesting to see all 32 teams stats on this.  Defensive holding Penalties for and against. The Bills got hosed against the Bucs but I think this is much more an anomaly than anything directly targeting Buffalo.

[BFLO]

19 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Eh, so 11 vs 17 vs 15

 

Bills are also dinking and dunking a bunch, penalty numbers don’t look as bad. 

Up the Bills total to 16, or 1 per game in the ones that we lost by 1 score and the Bills could be 12-1. 

 

It's that easy for the officiating to influence the outcome of a game. 

 

(Pats also have 100 fewer pass attempts than us, but 4 more of these calls in their favor)

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by BFLO

[pocoboy]

2 hours ago, MPT said:

 

I wouldn't say the league is out to get us as much as the league is out to help teams like the Patriots and Buccaneers.  Against the Bucs, the Bills had 7 penalties for 65 yards and the Bucs had 4 for 24 yards. That's only 41 yards net, but the combination of non-calls and the bad pass interference directly resulted in a 21 point swing.

 

OK - the yardage is kind of secondary in this discussion, in my opinion.

 

You want where the rubber meets the road when it comes to "influencing" outcomes, here you go:

 

 

Drive extenders. That's when the officials are earning their holiday "bonus."

Edited December 14, 2021 by pocoboy

[Livinginthepast]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

I don't get how one official standing 5 feet away from him doesn't throw the flag nor the other official standing under the goalposts looking at the play where he can literally see that two handed jersey grab and pull by the defender ...it boggles my mind how neither of those officials threw a flag on the play.  What the F are they watching??

Yes thats a good question. Unfortunately as I said an offensive player has to embellish a hold just to get the officials to notice. And even then they dont seem to notice!

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

I’ve been chuckling about this all day…like man how much do refs hate Xavien  Howard to actually call only him for two holds against us haha 

17 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

Yes thats a good question. Unfortunately as I said an offensive player has to embellish a hold just to get the officials to notice. And even then they dont seem to notice!

Oh they notice…it was a conscious decision not to throw the flag there…guaranteed they saw it correctly.  They figure…if we make this call the story will be we chose the winner of the game so let’s let it either get to a 4th down play or go to OT where either team has a chance.  And it is terribly terribly flawed logic. The Wallace play in OT has a separate set of rules applied because it is not a game winning play 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[st pete gogolak]

They'll get a bunch of calls this week in a blowout of the Panthers.  Next week against the Pats, not so much.

[Big Turk]

26 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I’ve been chuckling about this all day…like man how much do refs hate Xavien  Howard to actually call only him for two holds against us haha 

Oh they notice…it was a conscious decision not to throw the flag there…guaranteed they saw it correctly.  They figure…if we make this call the story will be we chose the winner of the game so let’s let it either get to a 4th down play or go to OT where either team has a chance.  And it is terribly terribly flawed logic. The Wallace play in OT has a separate set of rules applied because it is not a game winning play 

 

And that wasn't even PI! He got pulled by Evans who initiated the contact!

28 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I’ve been chuckling about this all day…like man how much do refs hate Xavien  Howard to actually call only him for two holds against us haha 

Oh they notice…it was a conscious decision not to throw the flag there…guaranteed they saw it correctly.  They figure…if we make this call the story will be we chose the winner of the game so let’s let it either get to a 4th down play or go to OT where either team has a chance.  And it is terribly terribly flawed logic. The Wallace play in OT has a separate set of rules applied because it is not a game winning play 

 

Also the Bills lead the NFL in opponent first downs by penalties averaging 2.5 per game.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

16 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

And that wasn't even PI! He got pulled by Evans who initiated the contact!

 

Also the Bills lead the NFL in opponent first downs by penalties averaging 2.5 per game.

Yea not only was that not at all pi…it was a very heads up play by Levi to avoid pi knowing they are probably gonna call it on him for an awful throw like that.  That was dangerously close to OPI if Levi turns around and tries to make a play on the ball but he rightly focused on avoiding the dpi 

1 hour ago, pocoboy said:

 

OK - the yardage is kind of secondary in this discussion, in my opinion.

 

You want where the rubber meets the road when it comes to "influencing" outcomes, here you go:

 

 

Drive extenders. That's when the officials are earning their holiday "bonus."

They also cheekily eliminated bucs holding penalties along their offensive line with holds called in our secondary giving Brady another shot at the down on multiple occasions. Absolutely objectively an unforgivable game for the refs…if you’re gonna let them play let both teams play.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[FilthyBeast]

I'm not one to blame the refs or give credence to conspiracy theories but this is certainly questionable and seems almost like a statistically improbability.

 

Also would like to see these numbers for all NFL teams if their out there.

[TBBills]

5 hours ago, DasNootz said:

For reference, here are the Bills stats vs. teams many consider to be favorites for the NFL (WWE).

 

Buffalo Pass Attempts: 502
Defensive Holding: 2
Def. Pass Interference: 9

 

KC Pass Attempts: 519

Def. Holding: 15
Def. Pass Interference: 2

 

NE Pass Attempts: 394
Def. Holding: 3
Def. Pass Interference: 12

You can see who they want to be in the post season. It sucks that some teams need to overcome favoritism along with actually playing the team.

[DasNootz]

59 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

I'm not one to blame the refs or give credence to conspiracy theories but this is certainly questionable and seems almost like a statistically improbability.

 

Also would like to see these numbers for all NFL teams if their out there.

Defensive Holding

Least likely to get the call: Seattle, Buffalo, Dallas
Most likely to get the call: KC, Jacksonville, Washington

 

While it sucks, I don't think it qualifies as "you can see who they want in the playoffs".  

 

Defensive Holding, Pass Attempts, %

Arizona: 5, 420, 1.19%

Atlanta: 7, 461 1.51%

Baltimore: 5, 467, 1.07%

Buffalo: 2. 502, 0.39%
Carolina: 5, 447, 1.12%

Chicago: 5, 384, 1.30%

Cincinnati: 2, 418 0.48%

Cleveland: 6, 392, 1.53%

Dallas: 3, 501, 0.59%
Denver: 3, 432, 0.69%

Detroit: 6, 463, 1.30%

Green Bay: 3, 451, 0.67% 

Houston: 4, 424. 0.94%
Indianapolis: 3, 425, 0.71%

Jacksonville: 9, 468,  1.92%

KC: 13, 519, 2.5%

LAC: 8, 505, 1.58%
LAR: 6, 474,  1.27%
Las Vegas: 3, 496, 0.60%
Miami: 6, 501, 1.20%
Minnesota: 6, 481, 1.25%
NYG: 5, 471, 1.06%
NYJ; 6, 504, 1.19%

NE: 3, 394, 0.76%
NO: 4, 405, 0.99%
Phi: 6, 379, 1.58%

Pit: 5, 506, 0.98%

SF: 5, 399, 1.25%

Sea: 1, 382, 0.26%
TB: 8, 563, 1.42%
Tenn: 7, 423, 1.65%
Wash: 8, 433, 1.85%

Edited December 14, 2021 by DasNootz

[Dr. Who]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Oh, they love flagging White for holding...which he does a fair amount of I have to admit...but compared to what the Bills receivers have done to them most games, I am not sure it is any worse.

Right, but, well, an explained joke isn't any good -- it would be especially bad if they called a foul when a player is on IR.

[BassToMouth]

You’re only confused because you still operate from the perspective that the NFL is legitimate fair sport. It’s not. It’s Entertainment. The Bills were a feel good story last year, which the NFL was fine with considering the amazing fan base we have and awesome ratings and energy. But that didn’t trump the desired narrative last year, which was is Mahomes the successor to Brady/the older legend facing off against the young new top superstar qb. That’s why they allowed the Chiefs to mug our wide receivers with almost no repercussions.

 

You’re confused about this year? We’re not part of the desired outcome. The refs have literally taken 2 games minimum just on their own and you can argue the Pats game as well w Knox in the end zone with that call putting us at the 1 as it should have if i

the flag were thrown.

 

You all wander around this site and forum confused about all these things some of are simply not. It’s obvious. You just don’t want to accept it. You’re right, that lack of defensive penalties against us is impossible—if this were a fair sport not WWE.

 

They didn’t need Buffalo screwing up their plans by still being better than a slightly improved Pats team. A lot of you don’t watch the Pats games, which is good. Because you’d probably go fully insane seeing how far it swings in their favor every game. It’s actually embarrassing that team is the number 1 seed. They are 6-8 seed imo if this were a real league. 

Everyone is trying to figure out ‘what’s wrong’ with the offense lol. It’s literally just this. We were getting normal calls last year. This year not even Diggs, the friggin best wr in the league last year, can get a call. You really can’t figure out what is actually happening? 

Edited December 14, 2021 by BassToMouth

[TheFunPolice]

Defensive holding is one thing...

 

If I'm a crooked ref who dreams of seeing Brady win another super Bowl, I'm saving my flag for a deep pass late in the game. You could literally throw DPI on 99% of deep passes and worst case scenario there would be a debate but it's so subjective...

 

Did his arm bar the WR? Did he tug a little on the jersey? Did he get there a quarter second before the ball? Did the feet get tangled? Did the DB not look back for the ball soon enough? Was there "too much" contact? 

 

It's so easy. 

 

I watched a Tampa DB literally climb up a Colts WR to intercept the ball long before it got there and there was no call. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by TheFunPolice